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News & ArtsMonday, June 22, 2009
3
Don't they have some kind of support group for people who need buy two seats to fly on an airliner? Or are carnivores so macho they can handle that embarrassment all on their own?
4
@2. Yeah, the T-Rex is what did it for me (and the “Keep being AWESOME!”, naturally). Normally I think vegetarian-bashing is childish, but… this is pretty funny.
5
I'm very pro-vegan/vegetarian (and supportive of the "vegan-curious" whatever that is), but this made me laugh so hard.
11
Straight? Chances are you don't need some wimpy pride week! Haw haw haw. It's fun to pick on minorities.
12
Good stuff.
In the last few years most of my hardcore vegetarian friends have returned to the meat. Its touchy-feely pro vegan/vegetarian shit liked this that pushed them over the edge.
In the last few years most of my hardcore vegetarian friends have returned to the meat. Its touchy-feely pro vegan/vegetarian shit liked this that pushed them over the edge.
13
All these people bashing passive aggressivism should really reconsider their open mindedness, if they looked into it a little more deeply I am sure they would learn something about themselves.
15
PS, There are plenty of colon cancer, prostate cancer, breast cancer, heart disease, stroke, obesity, diabetes, high cholesterol, and hypertension support groups. Carnivores will be joining them when they're a little older.
16
Is there a support group for those so pathetic that they need to make fun of other people's convictions in order to placate the nagging realization that they don't do anything about their own convictions but sit on their ass?
18
@15
1. Vegans/ vegetarians are hardly what I would call a minority.
2. Are you really suggesting that vegans/vegetarians don't suffer from colon cancer, prostate cancer, breast cancer, heart disease, stroke, obesity, diabetes, high cholesterol, or hypertension. Because that is just infantile nonsense.
1. Vegans/ vegetarians are hardly what I would call a minority.
2. Are you really suggesting that vegans/vegetarians don't suffer from colon cancer, prostate cancer, breast cancer, heart disease, stroke, obesity, diabetes, high cholesterol, or hypertension. Because that is just infantile nonsense.
19
@11
OMG, puh-lease. You know that being queer and being a vegan are totally different, right? Being a vegan actually is a lifestyle choice, just for one example. Whining about what you choose not to eat doesn't make you a minority, it makes you a privileged brat who has the money to buy specialized food, the ability to prepare it, the shamelessness to make waitresses bend over backwards for you at their jobs and the time to try to shame other people into conforming to your ideals.
OMG, puh-lease. You know that being queer and being a vegan are totally different, right? Being a vegan actually is a lifestyle choice, just for one example. Whining about what you choose not to eat doesn't make you a minority, it makes you a privileged brat who has the money to buy specialized food, the ability to prepare it, the shamelessness to make waitresses bend over backwards for you at their jobs and the time to try to shame other people into conforming to your ideals.
20
@15 Yeah, but we'll enjoy the ride a-lot more until we get there. By the way, vegetarian advocates, much like anti smoking crusaders, like to pint out cancer risks for their arguments, but I have to ask, do you people really think you will live forever? You all do realize you are going to die of something someday don't you? Do I like the prospect of cancer or any other long, drawn out illness eventually leading to death? Fuck no! But I also don't like the prospect of living my life as a kill-joy, which is what I was when I was a vegetarian (can't eat there with you guys, no tasty vegetarian options). I also don't like the prospect of living until I am bat shit insane with senility. You know why I really started eating meat again? Because I had to eventually admit that that steak on the grill smelled delicious and life was too damn short to deny myself that. God Dammit a lamb chop sounds good right now!
22
Vegans never die, they just eventually begin to smell like prey and get eaten by carnivores who can't help themselves.
23
Gotta love the Slog insecure omnivore brigade.
Oh, and Rotten666 @ 12, go fuck yourself. How's that for "touchy feely"?
Oh, and Rotten666 @ 12, go fuck yourself. How's that for "touchy feely"?
24
I've been a vegetarian for a long time, and I have heard all of the ridiculous, defensive comments out there. All this despite the fact that I have never once tried to "convert" anyone to my way of thinking. It took me a long time to figure out why. It seemed so strange that people would get so worked-up over a choice I had made for myself that really had nothing to do with them.
Well, after many years of dealing with this, I realized that people were only trying desperately to convince themselves that what they are doing is OK. Ex-vegetarians are the worst at this, by the way. I guess they have to work extra-hard to cover the guilt they must be feeling. I mean, at one point you thought that the many arguments against eating meat had validity, right?
When it boils down to it, the only thing these people have to defend themselves is greed and mockery. Please, keep making fun of me and people like me. I will keep doing what I believe is right. I also believe that any rational person that approaches the issue with honesty and logic will see that regardless of what you feel about the morality, cruelty, and inhumanity involved in producing and eating meat, there are few, if any, justifications for it other than your own greed.
You might have funny jokes, and you might be happy to stuff all of the dead animals you can find into your mouth, but that doesn't change the fact that you're a pathetic asshole.
Well, after many years of dealing with this, I realized that people were only trying desperately to convince themselves that what they are doing is OK. Ex-vegetarians are the worst at this, by the way. I guess they have to work extra-hard to cover the guilt they must be feeling. I mean, at one point you thought that the many arguments against eating meat had validity, right?
When it boils down to it, the only thing these people have to defend themselves is greed and mockery. Please, keep making fun of me and people like me. I will keep doing what I believe is right. I also believe that any rational person that approaches the issue with honesty and logic will see that regardless of what you feel about the morality, cruelty, and inhumanity involved in producing and eating meat, there are few, if any, justifications for it other than your own greed.
You might have funny jokes, and you might be happy to stuff all of the dead animals you can find into your mouth, but that doesn't change the fact that you're a pathetic asshole.
25
none of the vegans i hang around with are 'touchy-feely' or 'wimpy.' but they are conscientious, thoughtful, peaceful folks who don't have a gripe with someone who eats animal stuff. then again, none of my omnivorous friends have a gripe with my vegan-ness, either. and they're all conscientious, thoughtful and peaceful, too. live and let live (or die), i suppose.
26
The whole goldarn U.S. of A. is a meat eaters' support group. A couple vegans say "boo!" and you bigboys all wet your pants. Who you callin' a wimp?
27
@ 24
I have thought long and hard about the meaning and effects of the food i eat on the world, its residents and my own body. Eating tons of heavily processed industrially monocropped soy "products" doesn't give you any more moral brownie points than eating pasture-raised and finished beef, and if you call someone who thinks that way a pathetic greedy asshole, you are wrong. Some of the arguments against eating meat have merit. Some of the arguments against being a vegan have merit. And you know what? Making it a moral high point that you are dogmatically in one camp or the other is always leotarded. Tends to be that the veggie types tend more to self-righteousness and screeds while the omnis either stick to simple teasing or are ignorable obvious mouth-breathing trolls anyway.
I have thought long and hard about the meaning and effects of the food i eat on the world, its residents and my own body. Eating tons of heavily processed industrially monocropped soy "products" doesn't give you any more moral brownie points than eating pasture-raised and finished beef, and if you call someone who thinks that way a pathetic greedy asshole, you are wrong. Some of the arguments against eating meat have merit. Some of the arguments against being a vegan have merit. And you know what? Making it a moral high point that you are dogmatically in one camp or the other is always leotarded. Tends to be that the veggie types tend more to self-righteousness and screeds while the omnis either stick to simple teasing or are ignorable obvious mouth-breathing trolls anyway.
28
@23 did i touch a nerve,pumpkin? Feel a little bit more butch now that you told me to go fuck myself?
I'm blushing.
I'm blushing.
30
@19, @27
So you don't think that your first post was a self-righteous screed? Also, I don't whine about other people eating meat when they do it, I don't make waitresses bend over backwards to get me food, and I don't eat tons of "heavily processed industrially monocropped soy 'products'" either.
So, thanks for the stereotypes. I don't think many of the vegetarians I know, including several Hindus, fit them either. I'm not trying to get any moral brownie points and really don't care about being on moral high ground. I just get so tired of people who seem to think that because I choose not to eat meat that I am looking down on them and therefore deserving of ridicule.
You can keep trying to put me into your stereotype of what a vegetarian is, but I don't spend my time trolling message boards to make fun of meat eaters, and no vegetarian I have known has felt the need to either.
So you don't think that your first post was a self-righteous screed? Also, I don't whine about other people eating meat when they do it, I don't make waitresses bend over backwards to get me food, and I don't eat tons of "heavily processed industrially monocropped soy 'products'" either.
So, thanks for the stereotypes. I don't think many of the vegetarians I know, including several Hindus, fit them either. I'm not trying to get any moral brownie points and really don't care about being on moral high ground. I just get so tired of people who seem to think that because I choose not to eat meat that I am looking down on them and therefore deserving of ridicule.
You can keep trying to put me into your stereotype of what a vegetarian is, but I don't spend my time trolling message boards to make fun of meat eaters, and no vegetarian I have known has felt the need to either.
31
Oh, Rotten666 @ 28, I'll never be as butch as you -- that is a given, friend.
I only wish I were man enough to stomp on geese just for the fuck of it -- we all know how that makes Ms. Clement swoon.
I only wish I were man enough to stomp on geese just for the fuck of it -- we all know how that makes Ms. Clement swoon.
32
You know that being queer and being a vegan are totally different, right?
I am both (mostly), and I wasn't equating the two.
As for the "life is too short for me to not eat corpses" crowd: fine, but don't complain when I harass you on a relevant Internet thread for causing global warming, swine flu, deforestation, animal cruelty, and ridiculously high health costs. #30 is a nice vegan, I'm an annoying vegan, but you are cruel and damaging to humanity.
Some light reading:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/70/… - Meat causes approximately 39% of all incidences of cancer and 28% of all heart disease
http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/2006… - Meat causes 18% of global warming and uses 30% of our total land area
33
@30 Dude, you can't take the moral high road after you write the following:
You might have funny jokes, and you might be happy to stuff all of the dead animals you can find into your mouth, but that doesn't change the fact that you're a pathetic asshole.
Hmmm?
You might have funny jokes, and you might be happy to stuff all of the dead animals you can find into your mouth, but that doesn't change the fact that you're a pathetic asshole.
Hmmm?
34
@33
Maybe I wasn't clear. I wasn't calling all meat-eaters pathetic assholes, just you and the other "haw haw vegans" posters on this thread.
Maybe I wasn't clear. I wasn't calling all meat-eaters pathetic assholes, just you and the other "haw haw vegans" posters on this thread.
36
I don't think there's anything funny about vegans in theory, but the fact they take themselves so goddammed seriously begs ridicule. lighten up, you're doing a good job. leave it at that.
37
@34 don't deny it You know you love arguing with meat eaters.
@32
the research for the first article seems sound, yet I don't see anywhere in the article that Meat causes approximately 39% of all incidences of cancer and 28% of all heart disease, like you said. Me thinks you are just throwing random numbers out there with nothing to back it up. And the second article is nothing but junk science. You can do better than that.
@32
the research for the first article seems sound, yet I don't see anywhere in the article that Meat causes approximately 39% of all incidences of cancer and 28% of all heart disease, like you said. Me thinks you are just throwing random numbers out there with nothing to back it up. And the second article is nothing but junk science. You can do better than that.
38
besides, how do we know that the intent wasn't to make fun of meat-eaters? the dinosaur. the all caps AWESOME. it seems fairly sarcastic.
41
#37, Read the abstract or results - the difference between cancer (malignant neoplasm) and heart disease rates amongst vegetarians and meat eaters.
For the second link, that's just a press release, but there's a link to the full scientific article (PDF) on the right.
For the second link, that's just a press release, but there's a link to the full scientific article (PDF) on the right.
42
you're reading it wrong, lizzie.
relative risks are the ratio of risk (risk = the probability of a given outcome) in one group vs. another, in this case it's veg vs. not.
for heart disease RR=0.72. that's calculated by [risk(veg)/risk(not)]. this means that based on this study, meat eaters are 38% (invert the ratio: 1/.72 = 1.38 = 38% more than baseline) more likely to die from ischemic heart disease than non-meat eaters during the 12-year follow up period.
similarly, meat eaters are 63% more likely to die from malignant neoplasms than vegetarians.
so yeah, vegetarians are a little more healthy than meat eaters. but meat isn't going to kill everyone.
relative risks are the ratio of risk (risk = the probability of a given outcome) in one group vs. another, in this case it's veg vs. not.
for heart disease RR=0.72. that's calculated by [risk(veg)/risk(not)]. this means that based on this study, meat eaters are 38% (invert the ratio: 1/.72 = 1.38 = 38% more than baseline) more likely to die from ischemic heart disease than non-meat eaters during the 12-year follow up period.
similarly, meat eaters are 63% more likely to die from malignant neoplasms than vegetarians.
so yeah, vegetarians are a little more healthy than meat eaters. but meat isn't going to kill everyone.
43
really though? none of you mega moral vegans (or mostly-queer vegans) think that "vegan-curious" is just awful?
and yes, i use vegetable oils and soy sauce only very sparingly. traditionally fermented soy food like soy sauce is decent for you and all, but the industrial ag stuff gives me the heebie jeebies. vegetable oils same thing, but pretty selectively as far as what kind. i switched to farmer's market butter and my food tastes better, i feel better and my weight and health have remained just fine, with a shiner coat.
and yes, i use vegetable oils and soy sauce only very sparingly. traditionally fermented soy food like soy sauce is decent for you and all, but the industrial ag stuff gives me the heebie jeebies. vegetable oils same thing, but pretty selectively as far as what kind. i switched to farmer's market butter and my food tastes better, i feel better and my weight and health have remained just fine, with a shiner coat.
46
"You know that being queer and being a vegan are totally different, right?"
Really? I imagine both do bizarre things to cucumbers on lonely nights.
"but they are conscientious, thoughtful, peaceful folks who don't have a gripe with someone who eats animal stuff."
Right, tell that to the customers at Lark. I've never seen meat eaters protest outside a vegan restaurant although once after a really good meat fest at Lark I dropped into Cafe Flora to take a meaty cr*p and tried as hard as I could to miss the bowl (yes, that was me).
BTW, I'd never eat vegan pu**y if its any consolation to the vegans here; you'd probably need written permission from PETA to go down on a vegan.
Really? I imagine both do bizarre things to cucumbers on lonely nights.
"but they are conscientious, thoughtful, peaceful folks who don't have a gripe with someone who eats animal stuff."
Right, tell that to the customers at Lark. I've never seen meat eaters protest outside a vegan restaurant although once after a really good meat fest at Lark I dropped into Cafe Flora to take a meaty cr*p and tried as hard as I could to miss the bowl (yes, that was me).
BTW, I'd never eat vegan pu**y if its any consolation to the vegans here; you'd probably need written permission from PETA to go down on a vegan.
47
I don't really understand the whole "I've never seen meat eaters protesting at a vegan restaurant" thing. First, meat eaters assumedly eat some sorts of vegetables or fruits or beans etc. at some point, so they don't have anything to protest. Second, even if they don't ever eat any of those things, the animals they eat do. So no matter what, it doesn't make sense to protest vegans because meat eaters eat the same things, only they also have meat on their eating list as well. Going along with this, vegans personally think it is wrong to eat meat based on health, environmental or ethical reasons, or all three. Meat eaters do not think it is wrong to eat veggies, so again, nothing to protest for meat eaters, but potentially something to protest for vegans.
Finally, in my life as a vegetarian first, and vegan now I've certainly gotten plenty of push back. Maybe not a protest, but certainly a lot meant to make me feel bad about myself. If can't count the amount of times that people have called me less of a man or offered me meat as a joke. I've learned to deal with it, but don't be so quick to assume that vegans don't get quite a bit of flack from meat eaters.
Finally, in my life as a vegetarian first, and vegan now I've certainly gotten plenty of push back. Maybe not a protest, but certainly a lot meant to make me feel bad about myself. If can't count the amount of times that people have called me less of a man or offered me meat as a joke. I've learned to deal with it, but don't be so quick to assume that vegans don't get quite a bit of flack from meat eaters.
48
They may not need it now but carnivores will need a support group. It's called the National Cancer Institute.
Check out www.cancerproject.org for how diet is the primary cause of cancer.
Check out www.cancerproject.org for how diet is the primary cause of cancer.
50
@49 So you choose to take one phrase taken out of context and ignore the rest? I was saying that meat eaters often try to do that, which is similar to your complaints about vegans, of which, I refused to accept the claim.
Good try though, I'll keep my cruelty free tissues
Good try though, I'll keep my cruelty free tissues
51
@48
"...diet is the primary cause of cancer".
You know what I'm sick of? When the herbivores make wild accusations that have no scientific backing. Just because you read something online doesn't mean it is true. Show me some facts. Peer reviewed, published, the works, that support your idiotic claim. Maybe you and Lizzy @32 can work together, make it a little project.
I don't care that you don't eat meat. Just stop making up imaginary facts to support your belief system.
Bush league.
"...diet is the primary cause of cancer".
You know what I'm sick of? When the herbivores make wild accusations that have no scientific backing. Just because you read something online doesn't mean it is true. Show me some facts. Peer reviewed, published, the works, that support your idiotic claim. Maybe you and Lizzy @32 can work together, make it a little project.
I don't care that you don't eat meat. Just stop making up imaginary facts to support your belief system.
Bush league.
52
Sorry mate, the full context stills make you look like a 3 year old:
"Maybe not a protest, but certainly a lot meant to make me feel bad about myself."
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah..............
Maybe some meat in your diet would help with your self-esteem issues.
"Maybe not a protest, but certainly a lot meant to make me feel bad about myself."
Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah..............
Maybe some meat in your diet would help with your self-esteem issues.
53
Lizzie, you blanket "meat" as causing a huge amount of cancer and whatnot. But does that meat include the wild game or organically grown livestock raised the same "humane" way they have been for thousands of years? The factory farm industry is grosso-mundo, sad, and detrimental to the environment (yep, read Fast Food Nation) but I like to remember that this is a phenomenon of this industrial revolution for the most part.
54
maybe it's because i'm not sure which side i belong on myself (being vegetarian-ish for the most part but still eating fish), but i really like this photo / these notes. it just made me smile..
why would someone from left or right get all touchy about something like this?
why would someone from left or right get all touchy about something like this?
55
Yeah I agree with 54. I'm a vegetarian and this made me laugh. I don't get what the big deal is. Everyone knows there are people who eat meat out there and people who don't. So?
56
@32- Comparing veganism to the gay rights struggle (or omnivores to nazis, etc. etc.) is counterproductive. Vegans are allowed to marry and serve openly in the military, they're just one of the many groups that get's made fun of, just like roleplaying nerds, furries, etc. The comparison makes other people less likely to take your points seriously or even bother to read the rest of what you have to say. Frankly you sound like an anti-choice protester at a planned parenthood clinic: more interested in trying to control and/or others and make yourself feel morally superior than in actually changing anyone's mind.
57
@52 You are the one who is complaining that some vegans may have made one of your meals unpleasant...I'm simply telling you what type of reactions I get when some people, like you, find out I'm a vegan.
Does it hurt my feelings or make me feel bad about myself? No. In fact, I end up feeling better about myself because it helps to justify the choices I have made in my own life.
I hope you have fun being a dirty asshole (apparently somewhat literally as well)
Does it hurt my feelings or make me feel bad about myself? No. In fact, I end up feeling better about myself because it helps to justify the choices I have made in my own life.
I hope you have fun being a dirty asshole (apparently somewhat literally as well)
58
You know what will kill you? Being self righteous, and stressing over others eating meat. http://stress.about.com/b/2008/07/07/exa…
60
59, Not enough yoga apparently.
If a Vegan's house or apartment gets an roach, ant, termite, rodent infestation, how do you handle it? Do you just live with them? Killing them, even with some organic method would seem to be contrary to vegan's beliefs. If termites decided to dwell in your woodwork, who are you to force them to die or leave?
What about all the animals killed in grain fields, fruit orchards, etc?
If a Vegan's house or apartment gets an roach, ant, termite, rodent infestation, how do you handle it? Do you just live with them? Killing them, even with some organic method would seem to be contrary to vegan's beliefs. If termites decided to dwell in your woodwork, who are you to force them to die or leave?
What about all the animals killed in grain fields, fruit orchards, etc?
61
Oh, yeah, and one of the biggest contradictions of all, many vegans are also pro-choice. Killing an animal for food wrong. Killing a fetus because you don't want to be pregnant, okay?
62
@60&61 First, I wanted to say that through the course of a lifetime, unfortunately there will be harm done to certain living things. Ultimately for me, the most important thing is to consider this and to reduce that impact as much as you possibly can. Because someone might accidentally step on an ant doesn't invalidate all the other compassionate things that person has done by avoiding killing and harming animals for food. To your point about insect infestation, there are traps that can be set that do not kill the insects, and then you can let them go. Your whole argument doesn't make sense though because we aren't talking about insect invading a house, we are talking about people torturing animals willfully and for no reason. Those cows and pigs did nothing to you, and certainly do not deserve to die prematurely or be treated in the way they do.
To your comment on abortion, I think you will find that there is debate among vegans about the issue that you bring up. So not all vegans are pro-choice. I think vegans that do support a woman's right to chose have a different definition of when life begins. I do not think they would condone using abortion as a means of contraceptive but I do think that if the woman's life or health was in danger, then that woman's life takes precedence, especially since without the mother, the fetus wouldn't survive anyway.
In the end, no one is perfect and no one is fully vegan, it is the approach and desire to be fully vegan that is important. For me personally I do all I can to make sure that no living animal is harmed in anything I do, but I acknowledge that no matter what I do, there still will be suffering. Again, this doesn't invalidate all that I or other vegans do.
To your comment on abortion, I think you will find that there is debate among vegans about the issue that you bring up. So not all vegans are pro-choice. I think vegans that do support a woman's right to chose have a different definition of when life begins. I do not think they would condone using abortion as a means of contraceptive but I do think that if the woman's life or health was in danger, then that woman's life takes precedence, especially since without the mother, the fetus wouldn't survive anyway.
In the end, no one is perfect and no one is fully vegan, it is the approach and desire to be fully vegan that is important. For me personally I do all I can to make sure that no living animal is harmed in anything I do, but I acknowledge that no matter what I do, there still will be suffering. Again, this doesn't invalidate all that I or other vegans do.
63
"I'm simply telling you what type of reactions I get when some people, like you, find out I'm a vegan."
What, they hold up signs and protest around your table? You know some weird omnivores.
"So not all vegans are pro-choice."
Please, probably 95% are. I know you people, most are also hardened leftists.
"I think vegans that do support a woman's right to chose have a different definition of when life begins"
Huh? So why do they freak if theirs an boiled chicken egg in their salad?.
What, they hold up signs and protest around your table? You know some weird omnivores.
"So not all vegans are pro-choice."
Please, probably 95% are. I know you people, most are also hardened leftists.
"I think vegans that do support a woman's right to chose have a different definition of when life begins"
Huh? So why do they freak if theirs an boiled chicken egg in their salad?.
66
Rob:
Regarding the point you make in 60, the main idea behind veganism (for me and my girlfriend, I can't even pretend to speak for the entire nation) is to do the least amount of harm reasonably possible. Is it reasonable to live in a roach infested house? Not particularly - we have a reasonable right to live in non-infested houses. Is it reasonable to prevent the death and abuse of animals by not eating meat? I would argue yes, in this day and age where the choices are available and the education is simply a mouse-click away, it's a reasonable idea. Is there room for manuvering? Of course, but living in a world of 100% absolutes never helps anyone. It reminds me of my friend who, because he can never make his paintings perfect (completely utterly absolutley perfect) he refuses to finish them.
For your point in 61, that is apples to oranges on many levels. I am not pro-choice because I think abortion is "okay" as you say - I personally wish it didn't exist - but because I believe in a woman's right to choose what she does with her own body, in privacy, and the reasonable assumption that abortions will happen no matter what, they might as well be done in a medically safe and sound environment.
I never try to convert my friends/family, but if THEY ask ME questions, I do try to encourage them to try it out. If not being a full vegetarian, then cutting out meat for three or four days. One friend has become vegan, my brother has become a vegetarian, and the others haven't; oh well, we're all still friends.
On the health issues, I can't say much for the numbers and stats since I don't know them. I can say I used to live a pretty terrible life style and since changing my diet I've also changed my other bad habits, starting exercising more, and feel more in shape and better about life than I ever did. I have a spiritual peace and a physical rejuvenation that wasn't present before (too much booze, cigarettes, fast food etc.) I do believe I will live longer and have a higher quality of life - I don't think that makes me a pretentious dick. I do agree with 24 on some points, mainly that there is a lot of insecurity about diet out there (no surprise given how big people are) and I've had meals with people who take something as small as asking for no cheese on a salad as a personal attack.
Eat what you want, let me eat what I want, and if you have questions I'll be happy to explain my own experience. It is a luxury to have access to all non-animal based food here in the US, but that doesn't make it a bad idea.
More...
Regarding the point you make in 60, the main idea behind veganism (for me and my girlfriend, I can't even pretend to speak for the entire nation) is to do the least amount of harm reasonably possible. Is it reasonable to live in a roach infested house? Not particularly - we have a reasonable right to live in non-infested houses. Is it reasonable to prevent the death and abuse of animals by not eating meat? I would argue yes, in this day and age where the choices are available and the education is simply a mouse-click away, it's a reasonable idea. Is there room for manuvering? Of course, but living in a world of 100% absolutes never helps anyone. It reminds me of my friend who, because he can never make his paintings perfect (completely utterly absolutley perfect) he refuses to finish them.
For your point in 61, that is apples to oranges on many levels. I am not pro-choice because I think abortion is "okay" as you say - I personally wish it didn't exist - but because I believe in a woman's right to choose what she does with her own body, in privacy, and the reasonable assumption that abortions will happen no matter what, they might as well be done in a medically safe and sound environment.
I never try to convert my friends/family, but if THEY ask ME questions, I do try to encourage them to try it out. If not being a full vegetarian, then cutting out meat for three or four days. One friend has become vegan, my brother has become a vegetarian, and the others haven't; oh well, we're all still friends.
On the health issues, I can't say much for the numbers and stats since I don't know them. I can say I used to live a pretty terrible life style and since changing my diet I've also changed my other bad habits, starting exercising more, and feel more in shape and better about life than I ever did. I have a spiritual peace and a physical rejuvenation that wasn't present before (too much booze, cigarettes, fast food etc.) I do believe I will live longer and have a higher quality of life - I don't think that makes me a pretentious dick. I do agree with 24 on some points, mainly that there is a lot of insecurity about diet out there (no surprise given how big people are) and I've had meals with people who take something as small as asking for no cheese on a salad as a personal attack.
Eat what you want, let me eat what I want, and if you have questions I'll be happy to explain my own experience. It is a luxury to have access to all non-animal based food here in the US, but that doesn't make it a bad idea.
67
@63&64
First, funny that you corrected yourself and kept a grammatical error in there anyway...the proper way to say it would be "if there's a boiled"...anyway...
You have absolutely no statistics to suggest how many vegans are or are not pro-choice, and even if you are right, it still means that there are differences of opinion.
Then vegans do not eat eggs because of the way that chickens who lay the eggs are treated. Chickens are induced to lay more eggs than they naturally would, and they are kept in cages where they can't move. Also because eggs are profitable and males cannot lay eggs, they are killed just after they are born, because they have no monetary value to the factory farms.
First, funny that you corrected yourself and kept a grammatical error in there anyway...the proper way to say it would be "if there's a boiled"...anyway...
You have absolutely no statistics to suggest how many vegans are or are not pro-choice, and even if you are right, it still means that there are differences of opinion.
Then vegans do not eat eggs because of the way that chickens who lay the eggs are treated. Chickens are induced to lay more eggs than they naturally would, and they are kept in cages where they can't move. Also because eggs are profitable and males cannot lay eggs, they are killed just after they are born, because they have no monetary value to the factory farms.
68
62, You're doing a lot of twisting to avoid giving a direct answer here. So are you saying it's okay to make kill or make homeless roaches, ants, termites, rodents because you just don't want to live with them in your home? The live insect traps are pretty much useless, and what you do catch and release just go back into someone's home, so they end up dying anyway. Since most household pests have evolved to become dependent on humans to live, releasing them in the wild is also a death sentence.
It's seems your being very selective with your kindness. It's okay to kill and torture some animals when all they did was take up residence inside your home? A direct question if you find termites in your home's structural supports what would you do? Is it okay to kill them, as long as you don't eat them?
Animals are killed when harvesting wheat, other grains, fruit, vegetables, but you still eat those. Storage, transport, and sales of such items also cause the death of animals. Is that okay, as long as nobody eats the dead animals?
So if a vegan doesn't consider a fetus a life, is it okay to eat animal fetuses, since their not living and all?
If you and your child are starving in the wild somewhere, and you have the resources to hunt to feed yourself and your child, do you abandon your principals when the going gets rough? Is it okay to torture and kill animals for food then, or do you live by your beliefs that animals are equal to humans, and sacrifice yourself and your child to preserve animals?.
It's seems your being very selective with your kindness. It's okay to kill and torture some animals when all they did was take up residence inside your home? A direct question if you find termites in your home's structural supports what would you do? Is it okay to kill them, as long as you don't eat them?
Animals are killed when harvesting wheat, other grains, fruit, vegetables, but you still eat those. Storage, transport, and sales of such items also cause the death of animals. Is that okay, as long as nobody eats the dead animals?
So if a vegan doesn't consider a fetus a life, is it okay to eat animal fetuses, since their not living and all?
If you and your child are starving in the wild somewhere, and you have the resources to hunt to feed yourself and your child, do you abandon your principals when the going gets rough? Is it okay to torture and kill animals for food then, or do you live by your beliefs that animals are equal to humans, and sacrifice yourself and your child to preserve animals?.
69
" the reasonable assumption that abortions will happen no matter what, "
Well, ditto for my eggs and bacon breakfast - it is, afterall, in my evolutionary nature to be an omnivore so the piece of bacon in my mouth at this moment making all my glands go nuts, is really beyond my control. It is my nature.
So abortion is ok, eating a chicken egg bad. I guess moral contradictions are a part of veganism too; so do us a favour and stop protesting at Lark when I'm eating there.
Well, ditto for my eggs and bacon breakfast - it is, afterall, in my evolutionary nature to be an omnivore so the piece of bacon in my mouth at this moment making all my glands go nuts, is really beyond my control. It is my nature.
So abortion is ok, eating a chicken egg bad. I guess moral contradictions are a part of veganism too; so do us a favour and stop protesting at Lark when I'm eating there.
70
66, So it's okay to kill and torture animals only when you say it it, I.E. When it suits you just because you don't want to share your home with certain animals? But you're going to pass judgment on folks who draw the line somewhere else? Please give a list so that we all know when it's okay to kill animals, and when it's immoral?
71
@68 I'm going to refer you back to post 66 where he does a great job explaining a vegan mentality.
As I said before, we as humans do cause suffering, yet we also have the ability to reduce that suffering to great degrees. I also said I think it is extremely important to think constantly about ways to reduce that impact even further.
The society that we live in does not require us to kill animals. We can easily survive in a world free food made from animals or animal by-products. If the case cam that somehow you ended up in a situation where there were only animals as your source of food, then in terms of survival you would have to eat an animal. But again, that is not a necessity in the society that we live in. If I were in that position though, I would make as sure as I could that there was as little pain inflicted on the animal as possible, and I respected the sacrifice that the animal made, something that is not done in the factory farms that exist today.
Humans do not need meat to live a perfectly healthy lifestyle. In fact, living without meat and animal products makes us healthier.
As I said before, we as humans do cause suffering, yet we also have the ability to reduce that suffering to great degrees. I also said I think it is extremely important to think constantly about ways to reduce that impact even further.
The society that we live in does not require us to kill animals. We can easily survive in a world free food made from animals or animal by-products. If the case cam that somehow you ended up in a situation where there were only animals as your source of food, then in terms of survival you would have to eat an animal. But again, that is not a necessity in the society that we live in. If I were in that position though, I would make as sure as I could that there was as little pain inflicted on the animal as possible, and I respected the sacrifice that the animal made, something that is not done in the factory farms that exist today.
Humans do not need meat to live a perfectly healthy lifestyle. In fact, living without meat and animal products makes us healthier.
72
Samel, this is the kind of vegan preaching and fundementalism that makes you look like fools. . Great. Enjoy your lifestyle. But like the rightwing religious loons and various Taliban in the world, keep it to yourself.
If the words of my two year old this morning.....yummy bacon daddy!
If the words of my two year old this morning.....yummy bacon daddy!
73
@72 Not exactly sure how my own lifestyle, which I don't really bring up except for when it is brought up for me, that focuses on less harm toward animals and the environment, has any similarity to a right wing religious loon or the Taliban. Last I checked, I haven't said that anyone is going to hell, I haven't oppressed anyone. I do keep it to myself, unless someone brings it up for me or asks about it.
You and your 2 year old can do whatever you would like, but you can also expect that if you post something ignorant on the topic, people will respond, which we also have the freedom to do.
Have a good one!
You and your 2 year old can do whatever you would like, but you can also expect that if you post something ignorant on the topic, people will respond, which we also have the freedom to do.
Have a good one!
74
@62 "Those cows and pigs did nothing to you, and certainly do not deserve to die prematurely or be treated in the way they do."
Don't kid yourself, Sam. If a cow ever got the chance, he'd eat you and everyone you care about!
Don't kid yourself, Sam. If a cow ever got the chance, he'd eat you and everyone you care about!
75
@74 Yes, I have heard that cows are choosing to change their diets from grass to humans! I'll be sure to watch out from now on!
76
"has any similarity to a right wing religious loon "
I guess you didn't see the protesters outside Lark earlier this year, and all the other places these fools show up; as irritating and self-righteous as any abortion clinic protesters. Do you support them? Or the animal rights and tree hugging groups that attack labs, cause arson and burn down homes they deem environmentally unfriendly? Do you support them?
I guess you didn't see the protesters outside Lark earlier this year, and all the other places these fools show up; as irritating and self-righteous as any abortion clinic protesters. Do you support them? Or the animal rights and tree hugging groups that attack labs, cause arson and burn down homes they deem environmentally unfriendly? Do you support them?
77
""Those cows and pigs did nothing to you, and certainly do not deserve to die prematurely or be treated in the way they do."
But pulling out an 7 month old baby, sucking its brains out and tossing the baby in the trash; that's an acceptable 'choice' with most looney leftists & vegans.
But pulling out an 7 month old baby, sucking its brains out and tossing the baby in the trash; that's an acceptable 'choice' with most looney leftists & vegans.
78
@76 I do not support using violence as a means to getting a point across, much for the same reason that I don't support killing animals. I believe in compassion and having conversations. However, I do believe in protesting. So just like I protest against wars, the death penalty, and for civil rights, I also will be there marching when an animal rights protest or rally is held. Again, no violence...
79
Mr. Stupid White Man,
Do you believe that any animals have rights? Do you believe that animals have any rights? If you do, what are these rights and how are they determined? How do you separate them? Based on type of animal? Intelligence? Ability to feel pain or fear?
Also, if there were food that tasted virtually the same as meat to you, would you give up eating meat?
Do you believe that any animals have rights? Do you believe that animals have any rights? If you do, what are these rights and how are they determined? How do you separate them? Based on type of animal? Intelligence? Ability to feel pain or fear?
Also, if there were food that tasted virtually the same as meat to you, would you give up eating meat?
80
"If you do, what are these rights and how are they determined? How do you separate them? Based on type of animal? Intelligence? Ability to feel pain or fear?"
Taste.....
Taste.....
81
@80
So animals deserve no rights at all? I should have the right to kick a dog if I feel like it? Or mangle a chicken just because?
If that's the way that you truly feel, then we clearly can't have an intelligent conversation and I'm done.
So animals deserve no rights at all? I should have the right to kick a dog if I feel like it? Or mangle a chicken just because?
If that's the way that you truly feel, then we clearly can't have an intelligent conversation and I'm done.
82
" I believe in compassion"
So you obviously support banning abortions after 6 months when fetuses can survive outside the womb.
So you obviously support banning abortions after 6 months when fetuses can survive outside the womb.
83
@77
I think you're creating an inconsistency where one doesn't exist. The suggestion that I discourage people from eating meat but encourage abortions is false. I don't think abortion is "fine" just like I don't believe that the mutated chickens created for KFC are fine - I discourage both and would like to see more public education in ways to diminish them. It would be wonderful if everyone who was sexually active took birth control and removed the need for abortions; similarly I would be happy if most people gave up the meat in their diets. That is not the same as saying I want abortion to be illegal, nor do I think eating meat should be illegal.
@ 66
You're missing the actual point. It's not about drawing one single line for everyone. It's not about MY line as opposed to YOUR line, it's about living up the best I can to an ideal of non-suffering, a belief most people - when you get right down to it - actually identify with. Will animals, and hell possibly people, die from the result of my existence? Yes, but I will do what I can to decrease harm and increase compassion.
I mentioned in my previous post: for some, their belief in non-suffering stops at eating meat three times a week instead of everyday. I don't judge them, I encourage them. There is no master list, there is only the evidence you choose to research and the choices you decide to make everyday.
I think you're creating an inconsistency where one doesn't exist. The suggestion that I discourage people from eating meat but encourage abortions is false. I don't think abortion is "fine" just like I don't believe that the mutated chickens created for KFC are fine - I discourage both and would like to see more public education in ways to diminish them. It would be wonderful if everyone who was sexually active took birth control and removed the need for abortions; similarly I would be happy if most people gave up the meat in their diets. That is not the same as saying I want abortion to be illegal, nor do I think eating meat should be illegal.
@ 66
You're missing the actual point. It's not about drawing one single line for everyone. It's not about MY line as opposed to YOUR line, it's about living up the best I can to an ideal of non-suffering, a belief most people - when you get right down to it - actually identify with. Will animals, and hell possibly people, die from the result of my existence? Yes, but I will do what I can to decrease harm and increase compassion.
I mentioned in my previous post: for some, their belief in non-suffering stops at eating meat three times a week instead of everyday. I don't judge them, I encourage them. There is no master list, there is only the evidence you choose to research and the choices you decide to make everyday.
84
Vegans have lots of feel good rules, but it seems to boil down to. It's not okay to kill animals for food. But it's okay to kill them if they are icky, and they are in your house. Oh, and when they die in the harvest, transportation, and storage of food, that's acceptable too, as long as they the animals are left to rot. Well accept for the insects that are mixed in with all grains, dried fruit mixes, etc. But most importantly, only vegans are capable of determining when it's morally acceptable for animals to die. (Which is when they can pretend that they are not part of the killing and eating of animals.)
85
Eat what you want, I really don't a fuck. We are all going to die in 2012 per the Mayan calendar when The Frozen Beast awakes from his eternal slumber to feed on the living. Then shall it return to Valhalla and humanity will be forever lost.
86
" I'm done."
Until the next time you plan on interrupting a nice, quiet evening out at Lark I have with the family.
Can you tell me where you eat out so I can come ruin your dinner?
Until the next time you plan on interrupting a nice, quiet evening out at Lark I have with the family.
Can you tell me where you eat out so I can come ruin your dinner?
87
So is it ok to eat cows that die from natural causes? Or if I hit a deer with my car, can I eat it? Or if you want a scientific argument...
Salmon is a good source of omega-3 fatty acids, which are essential for brain function and development. Studies have suggested that supplementing with DHA, which is found in fish oil, is beneficial for the development and maintenance of memory performance
Including moderate portions of lean beef in your diet is beneficial in enhancing your memory because of its iron content, AskMen.com says. While most men get enough iron in their diet, those who are on a strict diet and are sticking mostly to chicken, egg whites and fish as sources of protein may be running a bit low. Iron deficiency can have a big impact on brain function and impair learning abilities, eventually putting you at an increased risk for developing Alzheimer's disease
Eggs are a terrific source of choline, as long as you consume the yolk with the egg white. So, when you have a mentally exhausting day coming up, try scrambling some eggs before heading off to work
Not my information.... it's taken from askmen.com. This is only information on brain health. You could go further and find more information.
Bottom line. I don't mess with vegans/vegetarians... as long as they don't mess with me.
Salmon is a good source of omega-3 fatty acids, which are essential for brain function and development. Studies have suggested that supplementing with DHA, which is found in fish oil, is beneficial for the development and maintenance of memory performance
Including moderate portions of lean beef in your diet is beneficial in enhancing your memory because of its iron content, AskMen.com says. While most men get enough iron in their diet, those who are on a strict diet and are sticking mostly to chicken, egg whites and fish as sources of protein may be running a bit low. Iron deficiency can have a big impact on brain function and impair learning abilities, eventually putting you at an increased risk for developing Alzheimer's disease
Eggs are a terrific source of choline, as long as you consume the yolk with the egg white. So, when you have a mentally exhausting day coming up, try scrambling some eggs before heading off to work
Not my information.... it's taken from askmen.com. This is only information on brain health. You could go further and find more information.
Bottom line. I don't mess with vegans/vegetarians... as long as they don't mess with me.
88
"It's not about MY line as opposed to YOUR line"
Really Sam? So you don't support NARN's efforts to have the government outlaw my right to eat foie gras (your line) in Seattle?
Really Sam? So you don't support NARN's efforts to have the government outlaw my right to eat foie gras (your line) in Seattle?
90
@perplexed I wouldn't be taking all of my nutritional advice from askmen.com and by the way, doctors were featured in cigarette ads up till the 1950's so I think it is also appropriate to sometimes question the sources of information as well. And you are more than welcome to question my beliefs, but I'm going to keep on believing them and talking about them. What I do know is that last time I ate fish was when I was about 5 years old. 20 years later, I feel extremely healthy, I'm the tallest person in my family and I graduated cum laude from college. I do get those nutrients though! Just not from fish. Eat walnuts, tofu, flaxseed oil, these all have omega-3 acids in them.
Iron you can get from soy, lentils, spinach, etc. So I get plenty of that as well. And protein is the same deal. As long as you eat healthy and diversify your food, you are going to be just fine as a vegan. And yes, meat does have those nutrients as well, but the fact of the matter is that if you share my view on the matter as far as ethics are concerned, then there is no need to eat meat because it is all available in non-animal sources.
And to my friend Stupid White Man, I'm not sure that I've weighed in on the foie gras debate...I'm also not sure that I've ever interrupted anyone's dinner...
Are you still on the side of being able to do whatever we want to all animals, because they have no rights?
Iron you can get from soy, lentils, spinach, etc. So I get plenty of that as well. And protein is the same deal. As long as you eat healthy and diversify your food, you are going to be just fine as a vegan. And yes, meat does have those nutrients as well, but the fact of the matter is that if you share my view on the matter as far as ethics are concerned, then there is no need to eat meat because it is all available in non-animal sources.
And to my friend Stupid White Man, I'm not sure that I've weighed in on the foie gras debate...I'm also not sure that I've ever interrupted anyone's dinner...
Are you still on the side of being able to do whatever we want to all animals, because they have no rights?
91
"Are you still on the side of being able to do whatever we want to all animals, because they have no rights?"
I'll answer that one when you let me know at what month is it not ok to kill a baby in the womb. Unlike you, I accept the world is full of moral ambiguities so I won't impose my morality on you; unlike NARN which is trying to tell me what I can and cannot eat without fear of arrest in the city of Seattle.
I'll answer that one when you let me know at what month is it not ok to kill a baby in the womb. Unlike you, I accept the world is full of moral ambiguities so I won't impose my morality on you; unlike NARN which is trying to tell me what I can and cannot eat without fear of arrest in the city of Seattle.
92
@91 I don't think my being vegan necessarily impacts my views on abortion. I am not a woman, so I don't feel it appropriate to tell a woman what to do with her body. I agree with you that there is a difference between an embryo that is a week old and one that is 7 months old. I have absolutely no idea what the cutoff should be or even if there was one. Would I have a problem with someone saying that they wanted to end a pregnancy in the third term just because? Yes. But I don't think that that actually happens. Third trimester abortions as I said before happen extremely rarely, and really only happen because of extreme health issues for either the mother or the fetus. I'm also not sure that I want the government telling women what they can and cannot do with their own bodies.
To your point about government regulating what food you eat, I also am not sure on this. I think it's better that you don't but I don't know if a law will stop you, or is the best means of doing so.
I also don't think that I have put my morality on you. I've simply said what I believe, after it was brought up here.
To your point about government regulating what food you eat, I also am not sure on this. I think it's better that you don't but I don't know if a law will stop you, or is the best means of doing so.
I also don't think that I have put my morality on you. I've simply said what I believe, after it was brought up here.
94
@ 90: "but the fact of the matter is that if you share my view on the matter as far as ethics are concerned"
but how far are you really in terms of ethics?
do you drive?
do you fly?
do you pay taxes?
do you own property/have investments or pension or pay for insurance?
you must have a computer, do you pay for internet access?
the reason I ask, is all of those could be called in some form, into question ethically, if you answered yes to any of those then it just looks like you are on a singular crusade, whilst ignoring some of your other ethical inconsistencies.
you are not as progressive as you think, you kind of seem like a preachy ass.
but how far are you really in terms of ethics?
do you drive?
do you fly?
do you pay taxes?
do you own property/have investments or pension or pay for insurance?
you must have a computer, do you pay for internet access?
the reason I ask, is all of those could be called in some form, into question ethically, if you answered yes to any of those then it just looks like you are on a singular crusade, whilst ignoring some of your other ethical inconsistencies.
you are not as progressive as you think, you kind of seem like a preachy ass.
96
@94 Once again, as has been said here MANY times, Vegans do as much as they can to reduce suffering in the world, including of animals. Does this mean that it's perfect? No. But is it better than willfully torturing and killing animals? Yes. I said it before, just because I may accidentally step on an ant doesn't discount everything else I do in the interest of animals.
I actually don't own a car, and I walk as much as possible, same with flying. I recognize that my taxes go to things that I ethically disagree with, but I also campaign and vote against those that put those policies into place. I do not actually own property and I pay as much attention to where I invest the money I have as I can.
There are a ton of issues in this world that need to be dealt with, and none of us are perfect, nor can any of us individually fix these issues. But I can be conscious about all of them, and dedicate my time and money to as many as I possibly can. One of those things is not eating animal products.
I actually don't own a car, and I walk as much as possible, same with flying. I recognize that my taxes go to things that I ethically disagree with, but I also campaign and vote against those that put those policies into place. I do not actually own property and I pay as much attention to where I invest the money I have as I can.
There are a ton of issues in this world that need to be dealt with, and none of us are perfect, nor can any of us individually fix these issues. But I can be conscious about all of them, and dedicate my time and money to as many as I possibly can. One of those things is not eating animal products.
97
would there be any fun in the world without over generalizations about subgroups? i think not. in my personal experience, omnivores are much more nosy about vegans diets than the other way around. i don't know any self righteous vegans or vegetarians, maybe there's this small group of annoying vegans that everyone seems to know and i just haven't met but i really think it's just a construct in people's minds. kind of like the news media having a general liberal bias, if you just say it enough people believe it even though there is no evidence of it. people love to point out one case as proof of an across the board trait.
98
"so I don't feel it appropriate to tell a woman what to do with her body"
Well I'm an evolutionary-determined omnivore who likes foie gras. Don't tell me what to do with my body.
"I also don't think that I have put my morality on you"
Do you support NARN? If you do, you are shoving your views down my throat because they are actively lobbying the city of Seattle to ban certain foods they find morally objectionable. NARN wants me to be arrested for buying foie gras. If that's not imposing your morality on me, what is?
Well I'm an evolutionary-determined omnivore who likes foie gras. Don't tell me what to do with my body.
"I also don't think that I have put my morality on you"
Do you support NARN? If you do, you are shoving your views down my throat because they are actively lobbying the city of Seattle to ban certain foods they find morally objectionable. NARN wants me to be arrested for buying foie gras. If that's not imposing your morality on me, what is?
100
" i don't know any self righteous vegans or vegetarians,"
LMAO, next you're gonna tell us the same thing about Critical mAss cyclists.
LMAO, next you're gonna tell us the same thing about Critical mAss cyclists.
101
@98 Again, I already said I don't think that a law is necessarily the best way of putting that policy into place. You are free to eat whatever you'd like, but in many cases I'm going to be on a different page than you. The only time I'm going to bring it up is if you ask me about it or in a forum like this which is clearly discussing the issue at hand.
You told me that if I answered your question you would answer mine about animals having rights, and if it is ok to kick a dog...
You told me that if I answered your question you would answer mine about animals having rights, and if it is ok to kick a dog...
102
"fetuses aren't children"
Really? My first kid was born 2 months premature: very much a healthy, beautiful child today.
Of course, you would have no problem if we aborted him at 7 months; but eat a boiled egg and suddenly I'm Hitler.
Really? My first kid was born 2 months premature: very much a healthy, beautiful child today.
Of course, you would have no problem if we aborted him at 7 months; but eat a boiled egg and suddenly I'm Hitler.
103
Sam: do you support NARN or PETA, simple yes or no question.
If you support either one you are very much trying to use the power of the state to tell me what I can and cannot eat.
If you support either one you are very much trying to use the power of the state to tell me what I can and cannot eat.
104
@102
Not sure that anyone suggested aborting an otherwise healthy premature fetus, and again, pretty sure you wouldn't be allowed to abort a fetus like that anyway.
Eggs once again are an issue because of the way that the chickens who lay them are treated, it's not the egg itself. Also, who calls you Hitler? No one hear has suggested you are.
Not sure that anyone suggested aborting an otherwise healthy premature fetus, and again, pretty sure you wouldn't be allowed to abort a fetus like that anyway.
Eggs once again are an issue because of the way that the chickens who lay them are treated, it's not the egg itself. Also, who calls you Hitler? No one hear has suggested you are.
105
@100, you're right, i don't know any bicyclists that currently ride in critical mass. equating all bicyclists as the same people in critical mass is very similar to complaining about all vegans being self righteous.
106
" because of the way that the chickens who lay them are treated"
Ah, so it's ok if I only eat my neighbor's free range chicken eggs she raises in her garden?
Deepest, orange yolks you'll ever see. Make for amazing omlettes.
Ah, so it's ok if I only eat my neighbor's free range chicken eggs she raises in her garden?
Deepest, orange yolks you'll ever see. Make for amazing omlettes.
107
" all vegans being self righteous"
the ones on this thread are as are the ones I had to deal with at Lark with my kids.
the ones on this thread are as are the ones I had to deal with at Lark with my kids.
108
@103 I feel like I've already answered the question.
Do I think passing a law on what people are allowed to eat is a good solution, not necessarily. However the foie gras laws are passed because of the way that foie gras is made. Animals have their liver's artificially fattened, which is cruel to the animal. The law wouldn't be telling you what you can and can't eat, it would be restricting a practice that is abusive.
PETA does a lot of things I agree with and a lot of things I don't agree with. Throwing paint on people that wear fur? I don't agree with it, however it gets attention and they've had big successes with reducing the violent fur trade industry.
Do I think passing a law on what people are allowed to eat is a good solution, not necessarily. However the foie gras laws are passed because of the way that foie gras is made. Animals have their liver's artificially fattened, which is cruel to the animal. The law wouldn't be telling you what you can and can't eat, it would be restricting a practice that is abusive.
PETA does a lot of things I agree with and a lot of things I don't agree with. Throwing paint on people that wear fur? I don't agree with it, however it gets attention and they've had big successes with reducing the violent fur trade industry.
109
@ 96: that was a great response, and I agree w/ ya on all of that, thanks.
still, I think you should respect other people and their nutrition choices... we all got our own stuff do deal with and handle without somebody being condescending and acting morally superior.
still, I think you should respect other people and their nutrition choices... we all got our own stuff do deal with and handle without somebody being condescending and acting morally superior.
110
@109 Thanks for that...I do want to clarify though that in any other instance, I'm not walking into restaurants telling people to be vegan and that they are evil for eating meat. On a thread about veganism though, or if I am asked about it, I will give my opinion.
People do have the right to choose their own nutritional choices, but I do notice that many don't actually consider where their food comes from, and that's not only restricted to meat eaters either! I would also argue that if you sincerely believe in the rights of animals and believe that they do not deserve to die just to feed people, or if you are genuinely concerned about our planet, then you should talk to many people about the effects of the meat industry.
This doesn't mean calling people murderers, but instead bringing it up in a non-threatening way as part of a conversation.
People do have the right to choose their own nutritional choices, but I do notice that many don't actually consider where their food comes from, and that's not only restricted to meat eaters either! I would also argue that if you sincerely believe in the rights of animals and believe that they do not deserve to die just to feed people, or if you are genuinely concerned about our planet, then you should talk to many people about the effects of the meat industry.
This doesn't mean calling people murderers, but instead bringing it up in a non-threatening way as part of a conversation.
111
@ 102, I'm an omnivore. But it sounds like if you're so pro-life, YOU ought to become a vegan.
Interesting that you focus so much on extremely rare, always-for-the-best, never-cuz-mom-suddenly-changed-her-mind late-term abortion to support your call for meddling in the private affairs of women. Nanny state much?
Interesting that you focus so much on extremely rare, always-for-the-best, never-cuz-mom-suddenly-changed-her-mind late-term abortion to support your call for meddling in the private affairs of women. Nanny state much?
112
@106
If you truly do have a neighbor that just has chickens that roam around completely free of cages at all times, and you can then find the few eggs that the chicken lays, I would have much less of a problem with this than with basically any other way of eating eggs.
However, I'm not sure if this is the situation that you are describing. Chickens naturally hide their eggs and it would be difficult to find them.
If you truly do have a neighbor that just has chickens that roam around completely free of cages at all times, and you can then find the few eggs that the chicken lays, I would have much less of a problem with this than with basically any other way of eating eggs.
However, I'm not sure if this is the situation that you are describing. Chickens naturally hide their eggs and it would be difficult to find them.
113
"The law wouldn't be telling you what you can and can't eat, it would be restricting a practice that is abusive. "
Oh give me a friggin' break, that's the most pathetic dodge I've read in ages. Seriously, pathetic.
You folks at NARN, who want to shove your morality down out throats using the power of the state, are just picking at low fruit ie. foie gras and a small, independent restaurant like Lark that serves artisan foie gras .
Oh give me a friggin' break, that's the most pathetic dodge I've read in ages. Seriously, pathetic.
You folks at NARN, who want to shove your morality down out throats using the power of the state, are just picking at low fruit ie. foie gras and a small, independent restaurant like Lark that serves artisan foie gras .
114
"The law wouldn't be telling you what you can and can't eat, it would be restricting a practice that is abusive. "
But I could still eat artisan foie gras from France or anywhere else then?
But I could still eat artisan foie gras from France or anywhere else then?
115
@113
This is what I'm talking about...not realizing where your food is coming from. And this is why I'd really like you to answer my question about animals having any rights. If you honestly don't believe that an any animals have any rights, then fine we are on different pages. I disagree with you, you disagree with me, I'm ok leaving it at that.
But are you ok with ducks and geese being put in small cages and then having metal tubes stuck down their throats to force feed them as much as 4 pounds of grain? That's the way foie gras is made. If you have a differing opinion on how it is made, then you are more than welcome to introduce it. If you are genuinely ok with that, then we can agree to disagree. It doesn't mean I'll stop being the way I am, but I'll stop discussing it with you here. I will also guarantee that I won't ever disrupt a dinner of yours, and anyone who knows me will tell you the same.
This is what I'm talking about...not realizing where your food is coming from. And this is why I'd really like you to answer my question about animals having any rights. If you honestly don't believe that an any animals have any rights, then fine we are on different pages. I disagree with you, you disagree with me, I'm ok leaving it at that.
But are you ok with ducks and geese being put in small cages and then having metal tubes stuck down their throats to force feed them as much as 4 pounds of grain? That's the way foie gras is made. If you have a differing opinion on how it is made, then you are more than welcome to introduce it. If you are genuinely ok with that, then we can agree to disagree. It doesn't mean I'll stop being the way I am, but I'll stop discussing it with you here. I will also guarantee that I won't ever disrupt a dinner of yours, and anyone who knows me will tell you the same.
116
@114 There is no universal animal rights doctrine, and US laws are not applicable overseas, so yes you could eat it there, but it doesn't mean that the same issues don't still exist
117
"not realizing where your food is coming from"
I've visited artisan foie gras farms in France and eaten there, so you know not of what you speak.
" I'm ok leaving it at that. "
No you're not, you and NARN would have me arrested for selling, eating or buying foie gras in Seattle. That's your goal. First the low fruit, then god knows what else you'll try and ban.
"There is no universal animal rights doctrine, and US laws are not applicable overseas, so yes you could eat it there"
But does the law you want to impose on me prevent me, living in Seattle, from buying, importing or selling foie gras raised outside the law's jurisdiction? If you are only banning the practice of raising foie gras in the State of Washington (or Seattle or US, what ever your goals are), then I can legally buy/sell/eat French foie gras at Lark in Seattle?
I've visited artisan foie gras farms in France and eaten there, so you know not of what you speak.
" I'm ok leaving it at that. "
No you're not, you and NARN would have me arrested for selling, eating or buying foie gras in Seattle. That's your goal. First the low fruit, then god knows what else you'll try and ban.
"There is no universal animal rights doctrine, and US laws are not applicable overseas, so yes you could eat it there"
But does the law you want to impose on me prevent me, living in Seattle, from buying, importing or selling foie gras raised outside the law's jurisdiction? If you are only banning the practice of raising foie gras in the State of Washington (or Seattle or US, what ever your goals are), then I can legally buy/sell/eat French foie gras at Lark in Seattle?
118
Why are most of the vegetarians and vegans I know fat and sickley? Why did my vegan friend have to start easting more animal protien when the bones in her feet started to die?
I believe there is no one right way to eat and don't give a shit what anybody else puts in their body.
You don't stomp on geese. Twisting their heads off works just fine.
I believe there is no one right way to eat and don't give a shit what anybody else puts in their body.
You don't stomp on geese. Twisting their heads off works just fine.
119
112, Wrong, wrong, wrong, I grew up on a small farm and all our chickens roamed about freely but always returned to the hen house to lay their eggs.
120
@117
In case you didn't realize, there are lots of laws that limit what you can and cannot do. There are laws against drunk driving. Does this mean that the state is impeding on your right to go and get drunk and get behind a wheel? Yes, it does, but it is in the interest of the rest of us that you don't drive drunk.
If you believe that animals have rights, which you have failed to answer, then they too should be allowed to not have a metal tube stuck down their throats and force fed grain till their liver expands.
In case you didn't realize, there are lots of laws that limit what you can and cannot do. There are laws against drunk driving. Does this mean that the state is impeding on your right to go and get drunk and get behind a wheel? Yes, it does, but it is in the interest of the rest of us that you don't drive drunk.
If you believe that animals have rights, which you have failed to answer, then they too should be allowed to not have a metal tube stuck down their throats and force fed grain till their liver expands.
121
Hey Stupid White Man, isn't it funny how you don't want the law to be imposed on you (re: foie gras) but you have no problem imposing it on others (re: abortion)? I think it's funny.
122
No, not funny, I'm pro-choice. But then again, I'm not a confused vegan who thinks eating eggs is unethical but aborting unborn babies isn't.
123
OK Sam, chose between your 2 statements:
" there are lots of laws that limit what you can and cannot do. "
and
""The law wouldn't be telling you what you can and can't eat".
Which one is it.
" there are lots of laws that limit what you can and cannot do. "
and
""The law wouldn't be telling you what you can and can't eat".
Which one is it.
124
"Vegans are immortal and never get sick."
That's because they're from a DISTANT PLANET. (Vega is 26 light years from our solar system.) In contrast, while Sirians are immortal, they do get sick.
But vegan earthlings need a support group because they have fuck-all to eat at most restaurants.
From the Indian immigrants I have known, there are plenty of obese vegetarians. One chick I know -- BMI roughly around 45 by my guess -- was told by her doctor to start eating meat in a last ditch effort to bring her weight down. Her hips and knees need replacement at age 40.
That's because they're from a DISTANT PLANET. (Vega is 26 light years from our solar system.) In contrast, while Sirians are immortal, they do get sick.
But vegan earthlings need a support group because they have fuck-all to eat at most restaurants.
From the Indian immigrants I have known, there are plenty of obese vegetarians. One chick I know -- BMI roughly around 45 by my guess -- was told by her doctor to start eating meat in a last ditch effort to bring her weight down. Her hips and knees need replacement at age 40.
126
@123 You clearly didn't read what I said...the law about foie gras isn't about what you can and can't eat, it's about not torturing the ducks and geese.
I'm also not sure how my 2 statements contradict each other...do explain!
And anytime you are ready to let me know about any animals having any rights, you'd be more than welcome...I think I've been good about answering all your questions.
I'm also not sure how my 2 statements contradict each other...do explain!
And anytime you are ready to let me know about any animals having any rights, you'd be more than welcome...I think I've been good about answering all your questions.
127
"it's about not torturing the ducks and geese."
So I can import French foie gras and sell/buy/eat it in Seattle since it's being manufacture outside the law's jurisdiction. Thanks.
So I can import French foie gras and sell/buy/eat it in Seattle since it's being manufacture outside the law's jurisdiction. Thanks.
128
"I'm also not sure how my 2 statements contradict each other."
Of course you're not; not enough omega-3s in your diet.
Of course you're not; not enough omega-3s in your diet.
129
an interesting thing about eggs is that whenever a predator species finds a clutch it is a boon in the sense of optimum foraging theory, little work for a lot of return(protein wise), and that it was mostly for easy access to eggs that our ancestors first domesticated fowl.
that and the fact that while Americans may love their three egg omelettes, to the French one egg is "an oeff".
that and the fact that while Americans may love their three egg omelettes, to the French one egg is "an oeff".
130
@127&128
Well I believe french foie gras is made the same way, so you can do what you like, but I think it's a brutal practice. And even if it's made in a different way, it still involves the killing of the duck or goose, so I'm opposed to that, but again, do what you think is right.
The funny thing is that I think it might be you missing the Omega 3 because you keep forgetting to answer my questions!
Please though, if you can explain where the contradiction is, I'd be quite grateful
Well I believe french foie gras is made the same way, so you can do what you like, but I think it's a brutal practice. And even if it's made in a different way, it still involves the killing of the duck or goose, so I'm opposed to that, but again, do what you think is right.
The funny thing is that I think it might be you missing the Omega 3 because you keep forgetting to answer my questions!
Please though, if you can explain where the contradiction is, I'd be quite grateful
131
McGee @ 118:
I have no doubt you're good at twisting on a head.
You don't have any vegan friends, let alone fat and "sickley" ones with dying feet.
Bethany whispered to me that you have no friends, period. That's typical of willful idiots who spew unadulterated bullshit on the internet. You and Stupid White Man should hook up and twist each other off pronto.
I have no doubt you're good at twisting on a head.
You don't have any vegan friends, let alone fat and "sickley" ones with dying feet.
Bethany whispered to me that you have no friends, period. That's typical of willful idiots who spew unadulterated bullshit on the internet. You and Stupid White Man should hook up and twist each other off pronto.
132
There is naturally made foie gras http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew…
We are part of the food chain. Animals eat one another. Being at the top of the food chain has it's advantages.
Animals are not on par with people when it comes to rights. If you were in a burning building, and you had to choose between saving your child or a hamster, which would you choose? If a vegan fireman let your child burn alive to save the hamster, what would you do?
We are part of the food chain. Animals eat one another. Being at the top of the food chain has it's advantages.
Animals are not on par with people when it comes to rights. If you were in a burning building, and you had to choose between saving your child or a hamster, which would you choose? If a vegan fireman let your child burn alive to save the hamster, what would you do?
133
@132 Humans do not need to eat meat though, and I have read plenty that says we actually aren't meant to eat meat or animal products at all. Certainly, the rate at which we eat meat today is far above what we can handle as meat was never as available as it has been in the last 50 years.
I did not say that animals are on par with humans, but that also doesn't mean they are without any rights. Yes if my child and hamster are in a building, I'm going for my child first. In fact, if a stranger and my dog are in a burning building, I'm probably going for the stranger, but that doesn't mean that we have the right to treat animals the way we do when they become food. It also doesn't mean that after saving that human, which in turn allowed the animal to perish, I wouldn't feel horrible about a life having ended.
I did not say that animals are on par with humans, but that also doesn't mean they are without any rights. Yes if my child and hamster are in a building, I'm going for my child first. In fact, if a stranger and my dog are in a burning building, I'm probably going for the stranger, but that doesn't mean that we have the right to treat animals the way we do when they become food. It also doesn't mean that after saving that human, which in turn allowed the animal to perish, I wouldn't feel horrible about a life having ended.
134
@132: "If a vegan fireman let your child burn alive to save the hamster, what would you do?"
roast some marshmallows and do the hamster dance. natch.
oh wait, are marshmallows vegan? probably not...DRAT!
roast some marshmallows and do the hamster dance. natch.
oh wait, are marshmallows vegan? probably not...DRAT!
137
ohh come on, don't be a douche, those guys eat nails and fart fire, and you know what, I want them to eat meat, 'cause their job is hard, and important, don't undermine reality with feel good bullshit. fireman help us all.
138
"Also, who calls you Hitler? No one hear has suggested you are."
You're right, he was a vegetarian...and don't link me to a PETA site claiming he wasn't.
"One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea of the shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."
You're right, he was a vegetarian...and don't link me to a PETA site claiming he wasn't.
"One may regret living at a period when it's impossible to form an idea of the shape the world of the future will assume. But there's one thing I can predict to eaters of meat: the world of the future will be vegetarian."
139
@137 I don't really understand, they are a real fire company and did that on their own because the meat they were eating made them unhealthy and worse at their jobs...
140
"do what you think is right."
Really? So now you don't want to have the state tell me what to eat? Yippee!
BTW, what kind of sentence/fine/sanction do you want the government and polive to impose on those of us in Seattle who will continue to buy/sell/eat foie gras. Please let me know.
Really? So now you don't want to have the state tell me what to eat? Yippee!
BTW, what kind of sentence/fine/sanction do you want the government and polive to impose on those of us in Seattle who will continue to buy/sell/eat foie gras. Please let me know.
141
@138
Did you forget to answer my question again?
And just because Hitler was a vegetarian, that makes the rest of us evil? Also, I'm a vegan, so....
Did you forget to answer my question again?
And just because Hitler was a vegetarian, that makes the rest of us evil? Also, I'm a vegan, so....
142
133, Actually one of the things that allowed humans to become more intelligent than other species was that we started eating meat. It was one of the factors why we became the dominate species.
I agree that Americans tend to eat too much meat, especially red meat, but eating white meat, both fowl and fish actually leads to better health. It's about a balanced diet, choosing lean cuts of meat, etc. Again, we are part of the food chain. We are usually at the top, with a few exceptions, but that's the way we evolved. It's not immoral to partake of that order. It's not like an animal would live forever if we didn't eat it. All animal species die, including us.
Personally I don't care what you eat. If it makes you feel good to not eat meat, fine, but don't kid yourself, your diet and lifestyle causes the death of plenty of animals.
I agree that Americans tend to eat too much meat, especially red meat, but eating white meat, both fowl and fish actually leads to better health. It's about a balanced diet, choosing lean cuts of meat, etc. Again, we are part of the food chain. We are usually at the top, with a few exceptions, but that's the way we evolved. It's not immoral to partake of that order. It's not like an animal would live forever if we didn't eat it. All animal species die, including us.
Personally I don't care what you eat. If it makes you feel good to not eat meat, fine, but don't kid yourself, your diet and lifestyle causes the death of plenty of animals.
143
@140 I think laws should be passed that limit animal suffering. I don't think factory farms should exist that house chickens in cages so small that they can't move, and I don't think ducks should be force fed grain. I also don't think they should be killed.
I believe that animals deserve certain rights and laws are sometimes needed to guarantee those rights. What if I told you about a food that you could only get from killing polar bears, but you couldn't eat it because polar bears are on the endangered species list. Is that a law that is imposing it's beliefs on you?
I believe that animals deserve certain rights and laws are sometimes needed to guarantee those rights. What if I told you about a food that you could only get from killing polar bears, but you couldn't eat it because polar bears are on the endangered species list. Is that a law that is imposing it's beliefs on you?
146
" that makes the rest of us evil"
No, but you seem to suffer from the same distrust of individual human liberties, rights and freedoms as outlined in our constitution that protects people, not animals.
No, but you seem to suffer from the same distrust of individual human liberties, rights and freedoms as outlined in our constitution that protects people, not animals.
147
@142 Pretty sure I've already addressed this. While my lifestyle probably does cause suffering in some way, I do all I can to lessen that suffering. That does not discount all that I have done.
And actually because of our long intestinal system, our body is not really meant to digest meat. Carnivores have very short digestive tracts, herbivores do not. This is because when meat doesn't take as long to digest, and it begins to rot when it sits in your intestines for that long. Plants do take a long time to fully digest though, so they need that long digestive tract. Also our "canine" teeth are actually not like carnivorous teeth at all, they are more like other herbivore's teeth that may be slightly sharp, but not the same as a dog's teeth
And actually because of our long intestinal system, our body is not really meant to digest meat. Carnivores have very short digestive tracts, herbivores do not. This is because when meat doesn't take as long to digest, and it begins to rot when it sits in your intestines for that long. Plants do take a long time to fully digest though, so they need that long digestive tract. Also our "canine" teeth are actually not like carnivorous teeth at all, they are more like other herbivore's teeth that may be slightly sharp, but not the same as a dog's teeth
148
douches to the left of me ( maybe sam)
douches to the right of me (stupid white man, for sure)
I'm just gonna get the hell out of this polemic jousting disaster...
egads, people. try to keep some dignity.
douches to the right of me (stupid white man, for sure)
I'm just gonna get the hell out of this polemic jousting disaster...
egads, people. try to keep some dignity.
149
@146 oh you mean that same constitution that at the time it was written only afforded rights to white male property owners? you mean the one that allowed for slavery, an institution that claimed certain people were not actually equals, and more like animals?
and @144 I didn't say that was the only reason, but they identified it as a reason, and that is why they did what they did
and @144 I didn't say that was the only reason, but they identified it as a reason, and that is why they did what they did
150
@148 I don't really know why you need to call names...all I did was explain that there are in fact vegan fire fighters....don't know why that pissed you off so much
151
"you mean the one that allowed for slavery, an institution that claimed certain people were not actually equals, and more like animals?"
Hey, I would be happy if your chosen tactic was to amend the US constitution to give animals rights. Seriously, I'll send you $100 for that one because it means you'll never succeed.
But keep chasing those windmills, and if you're feeling tired running around, eat some eggs.
Hey, I would be happy if your chosen tactic was to amend the US constitution to give animals rights. Seriously, I'll send you $100 for that one because it means you'll never succeed.
But keep chasing those windmills, and if you're feeling tired running around, eat some eggs.
152
"you mean the one that allowed for slavery, an institution that claimed certain people were not actually equals, and more like animals?"
And why are you equating the struggles of African-Americans with ducks and geese?
And why are you equating the struggles of African-Americans with ducks and geese?
153
@133. Cudos for staying civil in your discussion. I disagree with you on many things, but enjoy a nice discussion about it. I don't even pretend to think either one of us will change the other's mind, but it's fun trying... so... For every study that you have read that says humans aren't meant to eat meat, there are studies that show they were meant to be omnivores. I have no problem in answering your question on animal rights. I don't eat foi gras, I don't eat veal. I don't believe we should be cruel to animals. HOWEVER... I don't think an animal has the same rights as a human. I live in a fairly rural part of the US. I know many families that are poor and would go hungry if they didn't suppliment their diet with hunted game, so much so that when a deer is hit by an auto in this area, there are people that take it and clean it and give the meat to needy families. I have also seen what happens to the deer in the area when you get overpopulation. There are sections of the south that would have massive die-outs of wild game if hunting were banned because of over-population and lack of resources to support them (along with lack of high-level predators that have ran out of habitat to make room for soy bean fields and rice fields).
I have no problem with someone's personal preference, I even keep an open mind when listening to arguments on both sides... as I pointed out, I don't eat veal, etc. I'll go that far... I do have a problem with people like my son's friend who is always trying to "convert" me to not eat meat. He will even eat eggs as long as they aren't fertilized... of course I had to ask him why it's ok to eat chickens one cell at a time.... :) I like to pick on him.
I have no problem with someone's personal preference, I even keep an open mind when listening to arguments on both sides... as I pointed out, I don't eat veal, etc. I'll go that far... I do have a problem with people like my son's friend who is always trying to "convert" me to not eat meat. He will even eat eggs as long as they aren't fertilized... of course I had to ask him why it's ok to eat chickens one cell at a time.... :) I like to pick on him.
154
@151
I wish you would answer my question...I have been quite nice in answering all of yours.
I didn't say that the constitution necessarily needed to include rights for animals, but at the same time, the constitution is not a perfect document, as evidenced by the fact that in our history we have treated people as animals, and still treat many people as less than equal.
I would continue to argue though, that we do not have the right to kill animals and treat them as we do now.
I wish you would answer my question...I have been quite nice in answering all of yours.
I didn't say that the constitution necessarily needed to include rights for animals, but at the same time, the constitution is not a perfect document, as evidenced by the fact that in our history we have treated people as animals, and still treat many people as less than equal.
I would continue to argue though, that we do not have the right to kill animals and treat them as we do now.
155
@ 150: I'm not gonna get into that passive aggressive fight, I like you, you make lots of good points, I'm not a vegan , never gonna be one.
but you know, I can respect that, no skin off my ass, but putting up some sort of lentil eating fireman brigade was cheap, cause we both know most of them live on dead flesh. Is that morally right? Who cares.
but you know, I can respect that, no skin off my ass, but putting up some sort of lentil eating fireman brigade was cheap, cause we both know most of them live on dead flesh. Is that morally right? Who cares.
156
147, So it's only okay to kill animals when you say so, and for your reasons only? If you get an infestation in your house? If you were true to your beliefs, you'd let them live in your home. You'd protest restaurants and food factories that killed their roaches and rats...but those animals don't count.
Our meat eating ways evolved millions of years ago, and helped us survive and become dominate. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/…
It's natural. You can feel bad about it, but that doesn't change it. For you, it's all about feeling good, but in the long run, your existence is responsible for the death of countless animals...Oh but you didn't eat them. That makes if all better...doesn't it? Feel good. It's on artificial pretenses, and with lots of contradictions, but you can rationalize those away.
Our meat eating ways evolved millions of years ago, and helped us survive and become dominate. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/…
It's natural. You can feel bad about it, but that doesn't change it. For you, it's all about feeling good, but in the long run, your existence is responsible for the death of countless animals...Oh but you didn't eat them. That makes if all better...doesn't it? Feel good. It's on artificial pretenses, and with lots of contradictions, but you can rationalize those away.
157
Why is everytime the looney left gets taken to task for their BS (vegans, critical mass) they start comparing themselves to black people and the civil rights struggle? Seriously, I know you live in a 99% white, liberal bubble here in Seattle, but have you ever tried explaining your theories on goose and cyclists rights to the local chapter of NAACP? If you do, can I come along and watch?
158
@153
I acknowledge that there are studies on both sides, and I know all too well how easy it is to lie with numbers. I will say though that true studies of a vegan diets are not nearly as well funded or available. I can also say that I used to eat dairy products, and when I stopped, I almost instantly felt healthier and lost weight.
People obviously can have their own opinions on the rights of animals. Im actually with you with what you said. In terms of survival, I think a lot of this goes out of the window. But to me, since I am a product of surviving without meat and dairy, my personal value is that I should not be eating meat or dairy. You can differ, and I'm more than happy to have a civil discussion about it :)
I actually think we feel pretty much the same, just have a different line that we draw when it comes to eating preferences. And that's ok too. This doesn't mean that I'll stop going to rallies or protests, but it also doesn't mean that I'm going to walk into a restaurant and call you a murdered. To me, I think it's critically important that we all know where our food comes from and at the very least acknowledge what the factory farms do. This by the way extends to vegetables too, which is why I buy organic if at all possible, and I try to buy local as well.
I appreciate the civil discussion though!
I acknowledge that there are studies on both sides, and I know all too well how easy it is to lie with numbers. I will say though that true studies of a vegan diets are not nearly as well funded or available. I can also say that I used to eat dairy products, and when I stopped, I almost instantly felt healthier and lost weight.
People obviously can have their own opinions on the rights of animals. Im actually with you with what you said. In terms of survival, I think a lot of this goes out of the window. But to me, since I am a product of surviving without meat and dairy, my personal value is that I should not be eating meat or dairy. You can differ, and I'm more than happy to have a civil discussion about it :)
I actually think we feel pretty much the same, just have a different line that we draw when it comes to eating preferences. And that's ok too. This doesn't mean that I'll stop going to rallies or protests, but it also doesn't mean that I'm going to walk into a restaurant and call you a murdered. To me, I think it's critically important that we all know where our food comes from and at the very least acknowledge what the factory farms do. This by the way extends to vegetables too, which is why I buy organic if at all possible, and I try to buy local as well.
I appreciate the civil discussion though!
159
& @ 150: much of what I said before that was intended to lighten things up. none of this (talking on blog crap) really matters.
160
"don't kid yourself, your diet and lifestyle causes the death of plenty of animals."
Cultivation kills animals, for sure. Bakersfield farmer Tuang Ming-Lin found that out when he was cited by the US Fish and Wildlife Service, back in the 1990s. Turned out the recently purchased land he was plowing was critical habitat for three endangered species, the San Joaquin kit fox, the Tipton kangaroo rat, and the blunt-nosed leopard lizard.
Cultivation kills animals, for sure. Bakersfield farmer Tuang Ming-Lin found that out when he was cited by the US Fish and Wildlife Service, back in the 1990s. Turned out the recently purchased land he was plowing was critical habitat for three endangered species, the San Joaquin kit fox, the Tipton kangaroo rat, and the blunt-nosed leopard lizard.
161
@155
Again, I wasn't sure if you had heard of them! I meant no disrespect to you. Of course I realize that many firefighters eat meat, I just wanted to let you know about a few who didn't.
@156
Pretty sure we've already addressed these issues many times, so if you want my answers go back and read this whole thread over again. IF you want to get more specific, ask more specific questions.
@157
I actually don't live in Seattle, so I'm not sure about that 99% thing...and the fact is that all slaves in the history of mankind have been treated as less than human, and while I acknowledge that non-human animals are not human (obviously) the same arguments are made about why they don't deserve rights (they aren't as smart, etc)
Again, I wasn't sure if you had heard of them! I meant no disrespect to you. Of course I realize that many firefighters eat meat, I just wanted to let you know about a few who didn't.
@156
Pretty sure we've already addressed these issues many times, so if you want my answers go back and read this whole thread over again. IF you want to get more specific, ask more specific questions.
@157
I actually don't live in Seattle, so I'm not sure about that 99% thing...and the fact is that all slaves in the history of mankind have been treated as less than human, and while I acknowledge that non-human animals are not human (obviously) the same arguments are made about why they don't deserve rights (they aren't as smart, etc)
162
"@133. Cudos for staying civil in your discussion."
Of course he's staying civil, no one is trying to take away HIS/HER rights.
Of course he's staying civil, no one is trying to take away HIS/HER rights.
163
@160. There are differing levels of "guilt". If you take your gun out and shoot an animal, you can call that a first degree. If you go to the local butcher, you can call it a second degree, but in essence, you still have the same morality of the butcher, even though you didn't kill the animal yourself. What degree of seperation makes it ok? If you buy cotton instead of wool shirts, do you research the company to make sure they don't use leather products or other animal products in production? What degree of seperation do you have? Go a step further, when you buy your organic products, do you make sure the grower you buy from also stays away from meat? If that person takes your money and buys a steak, or even veal, does that make you in any way guilty? If you use a certain cell phone company and they sponsor a BBQ Championship.... or even a rodeo... do you become guilty?
Just some things to think about. I'm not trying to stir the pot, but I would like people to see that even a vegan could conceivably have guilt through association and support.
Just some things to think about. I'm not trying to stir the pot, but I would like people to see that even a vegan could conceivably have guilt through association and support.
164
@162
You are funny...I'm not trying to take away anyone's rights...you have yet to answer my questions about animal rights and about not having the right to eat endangered species.
You are funny...I'm not trying to take away anyone's rights...you have yet to answer my questions about animal rights and about not having the right to eat endangered species.
165
"I am a product of surviving without meat and dairy, my personal value is that I should not be eating meat or dairy. You can differ, and I'm more than happy to have a civil discussion about it :) "
Sam, in one breath you talk about this as your choice, in the next breath you talk about using the power of the state to make it illegal for me to enjoy certain foods. You can pretend to be civil, but you're not.
"the same arguments are made about why they don't deserve rights (they aren't as smart, etc)"
Well, try arguing that with actual black people who lived through the civil rights era. I'm sure they'd love to hear about the Rosa Parks of geese.
Sam, in one breath you talk about this as your choice, in the next breath you talk about using the power of the state to make it illegal for me to enjoy certain foods. You can pretend to be civil, but you're not.
"the same arguments are made about why they don't deserve rights (they aren't as smart, etc)"
Well, try arguing that with actual black people who lived through the civil rights era. I'm sure they'd love to hear about the Rosa Parks of geese.
166
@162. I think you'll admit that there is a big difference between his statements on here and a lot of the "over the top" attacks you get from some people on that side of the argument.
167
@163
I hear you and it is hard. I do think there is a difference between eating an animal and paying someone who might then use that money to buy meat, mostly because I am not expressly paying them to buy meat.
I do what I can to ensure that what I eat has absolutely no animal products in it. The fact is though, that it's almost impossible if you take it down to a chemical level. Many ingredients don't specify whether the monoglycerides they are using are animal or plant based. Even sugar is sometimes processed with animal bone. Do I try to stay away from this? Yeah, to the absolute best of my ability. I also would do my best to stay away from paying someone anything if I knew they would use that money for harm. This is a lot of the reason why I don't shop at places like Walmart.
The fact of the matter is though, that there are very few exclusively vegan supermarkets, and unfortunately I do not have the resources to grow my own food, so I do depend on grocery stores that will use some of my money to put toward buying more meat.
Again though, I think there are distinctions, although I guess that is up for debate. I think what I've tried to say is that as a vegan you do what you can. Animal byproducts are in nearly everything. I request that none make it into my food, and if someone doesn't understand I explain. I call grocery stores to request getting cruelty free food, I write, etc but again, I can't personally make it a perfect world. I am comfortable with where I am but I also strive to do better. While I would like for others to stop eating meat, ultimately, the only person I can control is myself. I am always open to suggestions about how to live an even more cruelty free lifestyle though, and some of your questions will certainly lead me to question some of my own practices even more.
More...
I hear you and it is hard. I do think there is a difference between eating an animal and paying someone who might then use that money to buy meat, mostly because I am not expressly paying them to buy meat.
I do what I can to ensure that what I eat has absolutely no animal products in it. The fact is though, that it's almost impossible if you take it down to a chemical level. Many ingredients don't specify whether the monoglycerides they are using are animal or plant based. Even sugar is sometimes processed with animal bone. Do I try to stay away from this? Yeah, to the absolute best of my ability. I also would do my best to stay away from paying someone anything if I knew they would use that money for harm. This is a lot of the reason why I don't shop at places like Walmart.
The fact of the matter is though, that there are very few exclusively vegan supermarkets, and unfortunately I do not have the resources to grow my own food, so I do depend on grocery stores that will use some of my money to put toward buying more meat.
Again though, I think there are distinctions, although I guess that is up for debate. I think what I've tried to say is that as a vegan you do what you can. Animal byproducts are in nearly everything. I request that none make it into my food, and if someone doesn't understand I explain. I call grocery stores to request getting cruelty free food, I write, etc but again, I can't personally make it a perfect world. I am comfortable with where I am but I also strive to do better. While I would like for others to stop eating meat, ultimately, the only person I can control is myself. I am always open to suggestions about how to live an even more cruelty free lifestyle though, and some of your questions will certainly lead me to question some of my own practices even more.
168
@165
I didn't equate the civil rights movement and the animal rights movement, just as I wouldn't equate the women's rights movement with the gay rights movement. They all are different. However one similarity is that the oppressed group are always treated as if they are less than in some way. People who were enslaved were literally treated as animals. In order to get passed all forms of oppression we need to stop this idea that some are less than. While animals are in a slightly different category, this doesn't exclude them from any rights, in my opinion, you have yet to respond to that question
I didn't equate the civil rights movement and the animal rights movement, just as I wouldn't equate the women's rights movement with the gay rights movement. They all are different. However one similarity is that the oppressed group are always treated as if they are less than in some way. People who were enslaved were literally treated as animals. In order to get passed all forms of oppression we need to stop this idea that some are less than. While animals are in a slightly different category, this doesn't exclude them from any rights, in my opinion, you have yet to respond to that question
169
" I can't personally make it a perfect world"
I understand, making a perfect world is tough, but remember Sammy, it only takes a few thousand dedicated, organize fanatics to try and create that kind of havoc.
I understand, making a perfect world is tough, but remember Sammy, it only takes a few thousand dedicated, organize fanatics to try and create that kind of havoc.
170
"one similarity is that the oppressed group are always treated as if they are less than in some way."
So you are equating black people and animals.
"While animals are in a slightly different category"
Keep that tin foil hat on tight.
So you are equating black people and animals.
"While animals are in a slightly different category"
Keep that tin foil hat on tight.
171
@169
Before you respond to anything else, can you just answer my question about whether you believe animals deserve any rights and if any animals deserve rights?
Also can you respond to my question about whether we should be able to eat polar bears?
Thanks
Before you respond to anything else, can you just answer my question about whether you believe animals deserve any rights and if any animals deserve rights?
Also can you respond to my question about whether we should be able to eat polar bears?
Thanks
172
"whether we should be able to eat polar bears?"
If it's sustainable, go for it. I've also eaten dog in Korea, dolphin in Indonesia (not yummy, let me tell you), and minke whale in Japan. All harvested sustainably.
If it's sustainable, go for it. I've also eaten dog in Korea, dolphin in Indonesia (not yummy, let me tell you), and minke whale in Japan. All harvested sustainably.
173
@172
So you answer the 2nd question, but not the first, I wonder why?
But it isn't sustainable that's what I'm asking you about it for. The government regulates that you cannot legally kill and eat polar bears because they are in danger of going extinct. According to you, that's wrong, because no one should regulate what you eat!
And while we are on the sustainable kick, factory farming a major cause for global warming and greenhouse gas emissions, which of course isn't sustainable
So you answer the 2nd question, but not the first, I wonder why?
But it isn't sustainable that's what I'm asking you about it for. The government regulates that you cannot legally kill and eat polar bears because they are in danger of going extinct. According to you, that's wrong, because no one should regulate what you eat!
And while we are on the sustainable kick, factory farming a major cause for global warming and greenhouse gas emissions, which of course isn't sustainable
174
"According to you, that's wrong, because no one should regulate what you eat!"
No, I said it it's sustainable, it's ok. If it's not, you shouldn't eat it.
I don't eat factory farmed meats.
No, I said it it's sustainable, it's ok. If it's not, you shouldn't eat it.
I don't eat factory farmed meats.
175
@173 - woops! you slid right past me on that last one... first you have to convince me that global warming isn't just part of a natural cycle. Now if you convince me of that, then you have to show me how banning factory farming and turning loose all the animals is going to correct anything. You'll still have the same number of animals belching and farting. What I see is a massive crash of the eco-system with huge numbers of prey with greatly reduced predator counts. This would presumable cause MORE population growth in the prey population resulting in increased disease and death in the population. In the last few years my mother in law has hit at least 4 deer while driving in this area. Could you imagine the damage to the area if it was wild bulls roaming around? :)
176
All banning factory farms would do is drive up the price of meat. Now, I have no problem with that, my family shops at organic places and eats expensive, natural, pasture raised meats. We get lamb from the farmers market ($20lb), we only eat wild salmon ($24/lb this week) and I won't even tell you how expensive the fresh duck we get from Oregon costs. Now, we do eat all vegetarian 2 nights a week (usually some great Indian recipes my wife knows) and fish once a week.
Under Sammy's plan, poor people will be sh*t out of luck when the price of meats escalates and they will have to learn to survive living on lentils like their ancestors did as surfs in Europe. As for those too poor to ear meat now, we'll they, too, will be sh*t out of luck. I only hope the teaming, poor masses don't find out where Sammy lives, or at the very least he has a damn good lentil recipe when they come pounding in his door.
Under Sammy's plan, poor people will be sh*t out of luck when the price of meats escalates and they will have to learn to survive living on lentils like their ancestors did as surfs in Europe. As for those too poor to ear meat now, we'll they, too, will be sh*t out of luck. I only hope the teaming, poor masses don't find out where Sammy lives, or at the very least he has a damn good lentil recipe when they come pounding in his door.
177
@174
Still haven't answered my question about animal rights...And who are you to tell me whether I can eat something or not?! So what if it's not sustainable, I have the right to eat that thing until it's extinct as far as I'm concerned. How is that different from your issues with foie gras legislation?
@175
While there may be something cyclical in nature about cooling and warming of the globe, all the evidence suggests that there has been a huge change since about 100 years ago after the industrial revolution began. Factory farms not only produce animals that let off methane, but they also cut down forests which gets rid of trees needed to take down the CO2 levels. They also ship meat across the world, also causing greater CO2 emissions. And true, in the very short term, methane levels might not go down a lot, but if we stop eating meat, the number of animals that are produced solely for food will go down, and thus will lower the methane levels. To your point about the deer, don't you think that maybe that is because humans have invaded their land and given them fewer and fewer places to live?
@176
First, I don't think that everyone will just be vegan one day, there would need to be massive education campaigns, but that probably needs to happen anyway for a healthier society to begin with. Also, I've consistently found that eating vegan is much cheaper! Beans, rice, pasta, tofu are all about a dollar or 2 a box and last for a few meals. Fresh veggies a little more expensive, but after the tradeoff from not eating meat, I am pretty sure you'd still save. Also there are big packs of vegan hot dogs, basically the same price as met hot dogs. Plus, the factory farms would no longer be able to exploit their workers...
Congratulations on eating veggie twice a week though! I think that's great!
More...
Still haven't answered my question about animal rights...And who are you to tell me whether I can eat something or not?! So what if it's not sustainable, I have the right to eat that thing until it's extinct as far as I'm concerned. How is that different from your issues with foie gras legislation?
@175
While there may be something cyclical in nature about cooling and warming of the globe, all the evidence suggests that there has been a huge change since about 100 years ago after the industrial revolution began. Factory farms not only produce animals that let off methane, but they also cut down forests which gets rid of trees needed to take down the CO2 levels. They also ship meat across the world, also causing greater CO2 emissions. And true, in the very short term, methane levels might not go down a lot, but if we stop eating meat, the number of animals that are produced solely for food will go down, and thus will lower the methane levels. To your point about the deer, don't you think that maybe that is because humans have invaded their land and given them fewer and fewer places to live?
@176
First, I don't think that everyone will just be vegan one day, there would need to be massive education campaigns, but that probably needs to happen anyway for a healthier society to begin with. Also, I've consistently found that eating vegan is much cheaper! Beans, rice, pasta, tofu are all about a dollar or 2 a box and last for a few meals. Fresh veggies a little more expensive, but after the tradeoff from not eating meat, I am pretty sure you'd still save. Also there are big packs of vegan hot dogs, basically the same price as met hot dogs. Plus, the factory farms would no longer be able to exploit their workers...
Congratulations on eating veggie twice a week though! I think that's great!
178
@ 11 - nice.
Here's one thing I have trouble understanding-- why are certain, well-intentioned people bashed for what they DON'T eat? Are these bashers just insecure motherfuckers or what?
This is another piece of meat for people who hate the fact that some people, yes a minority, even in Seattle, choose not to eat meat or other animal products. because, you know, you must be a wimp or even an asshole if you exercise ethical principles
Here's one thing I have trouble understanding-- why are certain, well-intentioned people bashed for what they DON'T eat? Are these bashers just insecure motherfuckers or what?
This is another piece of meat for people who hate the fact that some people, yes a minority, even in Seattle, choose not to eat meat or other animal products. because, you know, you must be a wimp or even an asshole if you exercise ethical principles
179
" that some people, yes a minority, even in Seattle"
Vegans: the new black man.
Unfortunately, white looney leftists have to go out of the way to be oppressed.
BTW Groundhog (which I must admit, I've never eaten, but I'm carn-curious....did I mention I ate raw horse in Kyushu Japan? delish!), this debate for me has been about NARN/PETA using the power of the state to IMPOSE their lifestyle on us, in particular with the attempts to ban foie gras (their low hanging fruit for now) in Seattle. I know you think vegans are all passive, but some of them are aggressive in wanting to take away our rights. I, for one, will not be fooled by the rather dazed, undernourished look they have into thinking they are not trying to ram their values on the rest of us.
So if you don't like getting your arse kicked around a little, don't try an outlaw my eating habits. Whine all you like about being 'oppressed', but you ain't black and probably never will be.
Vegans: the new black man.
Unfortunately, white looney leftists have to go out of the way to be oppressed.
BTW Groundhog (which I must admit, I've never eaten, but I'm carn-curious....did I mention I ate raw horse in Kyushu Japan? delish!), this debate for me has been about NARN/PETA using the power of the state to IMPOSE their lifestyle on us, in particular with the attempts to ban foie gras (their low hanging fruit for now) in Seattle. I know you think vegans are all passive, but some of them are aggressive in wanting to take away our rights. I, for one, will not be fooled by the rather dazed, undernourished look they have into thinking they are not trying to ram their values on the rest of us.
So if you don't like getting your arse kicked around a little, don't try an outlaw my eating habits. Whine all you like about being 'oppressed', but you ain't black and probably never will be.
180
@179
I would warn you though, Groundhog, that Mr. Stupid White Man only answers questions that he wants to and ignores others. He also refuses to acknowledge that the law isn't about limiting people's food, but about not torturing animals by force feeding them pounds of grains just to get their livers to expand.
I would warn you though, Groundhog, that Mr. Stupid White Man only answers questions that he wants to and ignores others. He also refuses to acknowledge that the law isn't about limiting people's food, but about not torturing animals by force feeding them pounds of grains just to get their livers to expand.
181
"This is another piece of meat for people who hate the fact that some people, yes a minority, even in Seattle, choose not to eat meat or other animal products. because, you know, you must be a wimp or even an asshole if you exercise ethical principles"
I love you guys, seriously, I do. You get to come on here, tell us that all meat eaters (even those of us who try to eat sustainable, organic meats) are unethical, we're destroying the planet, we're evil. Then you tell us you want to make it illegal for us to obtain certain foods you find objectionable. BUT when you get challenged, suddenly you curl up in a ball and squeal 'I'm being oppressed'.
You couldn't make this stuff up...actually, you could:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o76WQzVJ4…
I love you guys, seriously, I do. You get to come on here, tell us that all meat eaters (even those of us who try to eat sustainable, organic meats) are unethical, we're destroying the planet, we're evil. Then you tell us you want to make it illegal for us to obtain certain foods you find objectionable. BUT when you get challenged, suddenly you curl up in a ball and squeal 'I'm being oppressed'.
You couldn't make this stuff up...actually, you could:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o76WQzVJ4…
184
@181
Funny that you use a clip from Monty Python where the person is being oppressed, kinda like what the animals are going through, because again they are the one's being "repressed". You can't eat your foie gras? Boohoo! Your eating foie gras requires those animals to die.
I'm not asking you to justify your choices, I am asking you to answer my questions though, and you've answered all the rest except for those few, which is funny to me, and I wonder why you won't.
Funny that you use a clip from Monty Python where the person is being oppressed, kinda like what the animals are going through, because again they are the one's being "repressed". You can't eat your foie gras? Boohoo! Your eating foie gras requires those animals to die.
I'm not asking you to justify your choices, I am asking you to answer my questions though, and you've answered all the rest except for those few, which is funny to me, and I wonder why you won't.
185
@183
Funny that they don't show the duck basically at all in that video. Also funny that they don't show the duck being killed!
Here's another video that shows a bit more http://www.nofoiegras.org/media/media_im…
Funny that they don't show the duck basically at all in that video. Also funny that they don't show the duck being killed!
Here's another video that shows a bit more http://www.nofoiegras.org/media/media_im…
186
Well, I only eat artisan foie gras so your little propaganda video is irrelevant to my choices.
This whole argument is moot anyway since Seattle will never ban any form of meat eating. I'll bet one of my tasty testicles on it.
So, keep chasing those windmills, I guess you need something to give your life meaning, even if that means joining the other fundamentalists in the USA who like to impose their extremist beliefs on others.
This whole argument is moot anyway since Seattle will never ban any form of meat eating. I'll bet one of my tasty testicles on it.
So, keep chasing those windmills, I guess you need something to give your life meaning, even if that means joining the other fundamentalists in the USA who like to impose their extremist beliefs on others.
187
@186
Well actually it's not because the duck or goose is still killed, which in the end is the thing that concerns me most.
I don't think asking for things not to die is extreme at all, and I don't think that I'm putting my views on you. All I've done is ask some questions and give my opinion when asked. You on the other hand have belittled me and not answered many of the questions that I think are most important.
Well actually it's not because the duck or goose is still killed, which in the end is the thing that concerns me most.
I don't think asking for things not to die is extreme at all, and I don't think that I'm putting my views on you. All I've done is ask some questions and give my opinion when asked. You on the other hand have belittled me and not answered many of the questions that I think are most important.
188
"where the person is being oppressed"
No he's not, he's living on a narco syndicalist commune and doesn't have a lord. He's as free as a bird in his socialist paradise and any oppression he's feeling is purely a product of his paranoid imagination.
Please don't embarrass yourself and try to argue British humour with a English public school boy like myself.
"You can't eat your foie gras? Boohoo! Your eating foie gras requires those animals to die."
Again, I thought you said you weren't trying to stop me for freely choosing what to eat?
No he's not, he's living on a narco syndicalist commune and doesn't have a lord. He's as free as a bird in his socialist paradise and any oppression he's feeling is purely a product of his paranoid imagination.
Please don't embarrass yourself and try to argue British humour with a English public school boy like myself.
"You can't eat your foie gras? Boohoo! Your eating foie gras requires those animals to die."
Again, I thought you said you weren't trying to stop me for freely choosing what to eat?
190
" I don't think that I'm putting my views on you. "
"You can't eat your foie gras? Boohoo! Your eating foie gras requires those animals to die."
Seriously, eat some meat, you are all over the map here with your contradictions.
Better yet, next time you're in Tokyo, try the minke whale bacon at Ganso Kujiraya in Shibuya.
"You can't eat your foie gras? Boohoo! Your eating foie gras requires those animals to die."
Seriously, eat some meat, you are all over the map here with your contradictions.
Better yet, next time you're in Tokyo, try the minke whale bacon at Ganso Kujiraya in Shibuya.
191
Stupid white man: Your misunderstanding and your presumptions are wack and you're a lousy contributor to this discussion for putting words in others' mouths.
First you presume I equate minority status of vegetarians with minority status of colored people. Siiiiiiiiiiiiigh. us vegetarians are pretty liberal folks, by and large we aren't big enough jackasses to make that connection.
If you went to junior high you should know that the simple definition of "minority" does not equate to being oppressed, or even being in a category that you cannot get out of if you wanted to.
Second, you put words in my mouth that I claim carnivores are unethical. Another lousy point in your discussion meant to attract more disdain to vegetarians. What I said was basically that vegetarians are bashed despite ethical, positive intentions. That does not mean meat eaters do not live with ethical intentions.
Third, I'm a civil libertarian but you put words in my mouth, again, as though I want food that you eat banned. This is the U.S.A., the whole damn country is hooked on trashy food and many Americans throw a fucking fit over the very existence alone of vegans.
Definitely not all meat eaters, but presumptuous folks like you try to stir up more outrage against vegetarians/vegans, who try to live with positive, ethical intentions. Which makes you, and people like you, ASSHOLES.
First you presume I equate minority status of vegetarians with minority status of colored people. Siiiiiiiiiiiiigh. us vegetarians are pretty liberal folks, by and large we aren't big enough jackasses to make that connection.
If you went to junior high you should know that the simple definition of "minority" does not equate to being oppressed, or even being in a category that you cannot get out of if you wanted to.
Second, you put words in my mouth that I claim carnivores are unethical. Another lousy point in your discussion meant to attract more disdain to vegetarians. What I said was basically that vegetarians are bashed despite ethical, positive intentions. That does not mean meat eaters do not live with ethical intentions.
Third, I'm a civil libertarian but you put words in my mouth, again, as though I want food that you eat banned. This is the U.S.A., the whole damn country is hooked on trashy food and many Americans throw a fucking fit over the very existence alone of vegans.
Definitely not all meat eaters, but presumptuous folks like you try to stir up more outrage against vegetarians/vegans, who try to live with positive, ethical intentions. Which makes you, and people like you, ASSHOLES.
192
@188
First, please answer my questions
Second, what I'm saying is that you not being able to eat foie gras pales in comparison to something losing it's life, and a bam on the brutal practice, once again isn't meant as a limit to your eating selection, but more as a limit to cruelty to animals. I'm sure if there were a vegan foie gras, everyone would be more than happy to let you eat it. Again, laws against killing polar bears aren't there to keep you from eating polar bears, they are there to keep polar bears around.
First, please answer my questions
Second, what I'm saying is that you not being able to eat foie gras pales in comparison to something losing it's life, and a bam on the brutal practice, once again isn't meant as a limit to your eating selection, but more as a limit to cruelty to animals. I'm sure if there were a vegan foie gras, everyone would be more than happy to let you eat it. Again, laws against killing polar bears aren't there to keep you from eating polar bears, they are there to keep polar bears around.
193
Also Mr. Stupid White Man, apparently your idea of me putting views on you includes my support for any legislation that I might support and you might oppose, or any person that I might support for office and you might oppose. If you are pro raising taxes, and I am anti raising taxes, and I vote for one candidate who doesn't support raising taxes, based on what you are saying, I'm putting my views on you.
194
Boy, you vegans sure are a defensive bunch when you're told to piss off and let me eat my foie gras in peace at Lark. Better you'd all be domesticated and removed from the natural world where you might get hurt.
"Again, laws against killing polar bears aren't there to keep you from eating polar bears, they are there to keep polar bears around."
Well, if it weren't for my love of artisan foie gras, those geese Mr Bourdain swooned over wouldn't be around.
"the whole damn country is hooked on trashy food "
I agree, it's appalling what the average American considers food, completely lacking class. That's why I only eat well-raised, expensive animal products. Plus, they taste better.
"Again, laws against killing polar bears aren't there to keep you from eating polar bears, they are there to keep polar bears around."
Well, if it weren't for my love of artisan foie gras, those geese Mr Bourdain swooned over wouldn't be around.
"the whole damn country is hooked on trashy food "
I agree, it's appalling what the average American considers food, completely lacking class. That's why I only eat well-raised, expensive animal products. Plus, they taste better.
195
@194
Pretty sure I've already told you that that's not me there and my views on different types of activism. You definitely didn't respond to the polar bear comment, and still haven't answered my other questions. And, I don't need for there to be tons and tons of geese that are bred to be killed. Geese can exist naturally, in nature, and I'm happy with that.
Pretty sure I've already told you that that's not me there and my views on different types of activism. You definitely didn't respond to the polar bear comment, and still haven't answered my other questions. And, I don't need for there to be tons and tons of geese that are bred to be killed. Geese can exist naturally, in nature, and I'm happy with that.
196
"my support for any legislation that I might support and you might oppose, or any person that I might support for office and you might oppose"
Well, accept for one little detail: you'll never succeed in your windmill chasing. But I have no problem you huddling together with other oppressed vegans wasting time by conspiring ways to take away my freedoms. Better you do that than cause actual harm.
Well, accept for one little detail: you'll never succeed in your windmill chasing. But I have no problem you huddling together with other oppressed vegans wasting time by conspiring ways to take away my freedoms. Better you do that than cause actual harm.
197
@196
do you mean "EXCEPT for one little detail"?
But you again didn't respond to what I was saying. It's not about whether I succeed. It's that you consider any difference of opinion I have, no matter how I would present it, is a threat to you.
do you mean "EXCEPT for one little detail"?
But you again didn't respond to what I was saying. It's not about whether I succeed. It's that you consider any difference of opinion I have, no matter how I would present it, is a threat to you.
199
When you and your cohorts picket businesses and threaten peoples' livelihoods you are a threat, one that must be fought. You all started the fight, don't whine when we fight back.
200
@199
I'm not sure that I have talked about that at all. I am not whining about anything! I'm expressing my opinion and my opinion has gone much deeper than one protest at one restaurant in one city.
You have failed to answer any of my questions. Whether it is that you cannot or don't want to, whatever. But I have the right to protest where and when I want, and you are more than welcome to counter protest. I'm not going to call you a murderer, but I will support legislation that reduces suffering, and that is across the board.
I'm not sure that I have talked about that at all. I am not whining about anything! I'm expressing my opinion and my opinion has gone much deeper than one protest at one restaurant in one city.
You have failed to answer any of my questions. Whether it is that you cannot or don't want to, whatever. But I have the right to protest where and when I want, and you are more than welcome to counter protest. I'm not going to call you a murderer, but I will support legislation that reduces suffering, and that is across the board.
201
I don't have to answer your questions, I am not the one saying your lifestyle should be made illegal. That's the right of all accused.
202
This seems like a "duh" kind of comment and maybe someone has already said it but:
I have never met a carnivore (eats only meat) in my entire life and I don't think they exist (in humans that is). Being 100% carnivore would be harder than being 100% vegan. Most people that eat meat aren't carnivores, they are really omnivores (eats both meats and plants). So the flier about the carnivores is not making fun of any human.
I have never met a carnivore (eats only meat) in my entire life and I don't think they exist (in humans that is). Being 100% carnivore would be harder than being 100% vegan. Most people that eat meat aren't carnivores, they are really omnivores (eats both meats and plants). So the flier about the carnivores is not making fun of any human.
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@201
You have no answer as to whether animals have any rights? Interesting...
What part of your lifestyle is being made illegal? So if you are a serial killer, and I pass a law saying no murder, somehow I am in the wrong for legislating against your lifestyle?
You have no answer as to whether animals have any rights? Interesting...
What part of your lifestyle is being made illegal? So if you are a serial killer, and I pass a law saying no murder, somehow I am in the wrong for legislating against your lifestyle?
205
That should just say constitutional rights.
You want to make my right to buy/sell/eat foie GRAS illegal.
You want to make my right to buy/sell/eat foie GRAS illegal.
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@204
OK well you only had to say that who knows how long ago, and we would have ended the discussion, because you are clearly in a place that I can't discuss with. Clearly we can't talk about any of what we have been talking about because you don't really care if the animal suffers or is killed, because it has no rights. If animals have no rights at all then that leaves us to do anything we want to them because they have no rights. I've tried asking you if you'd be ok with me kicking a dog, since it has no rights, but no response.
So we can leave it at that.
OK well you only had to say that who knows how long ago, and we would have ended the discussion, because you are clearly in a place that I can't discuss with. Clearly we can't talk about any of what we have been talking about because you don't really care if the animal suffers or is killed, because it has no rights. If animals have no rights at all then that leaves us to do anything we want to them because they have no rights. I've tried asking you if you'd be ok with me kicking a dog, since it has no rights, but no response.
So we can leave it at that.
208
Well you need to start work asap getting the support to add animals to the protections offered by the constitution. As I said earlier, I'll give $100 to get you started anything to keep you off the streets for the 1000 years it'll take you.
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@208
I'm sorry, did I say constitutional rights? I said they deserve rights, like not being treated cruelly, not being killed, etc. Are animals equal to humans, in my opinion, no. But at the same time, that doesn't mean we can do what we want to them.
So if you are going to respond to this, try addressing my point, not just saying whatever you feel like.
It actually occurs to me that it's likely that you've never encountered any vegan that truly disrupted your daily goings on. You simply have a pre determined notion about who vegans are for some reason, and you apply whatever anyone does to that stereotype, just as you've done here today. Maybe if you would have responded to anything I said, instead of putting words in people's mouths and purposely misinterpreting what people were saying, we could have had an intelligent discussion, like I have had with others here.
I'm sorry, did I say constitutional rights? I said they deserve rights, like not being treated cruelly, not being killed, etc. Are animals equal to humans, in my opinion, no. But at the same time, that doesn't mean we can do what we want to them.
So if you are going to respond to this, try addressing my point, not just saying whatever you feel like.
It actually occurs to me that it's likely that you've never encountered any vegan that truly disrupted your daily goings on. You simply have a pre determined notion about who vegans are for some reason, and you apply whatever anyone does to that stereotype, just as you've done here today. Maybe if you would have responded to anything I said, instead of putting words in people's mouths and purposely misinterpreting what people were saying, we could have had an intelligent discussion, like I have had with others here.
210
"So if you are going to respond to this, try addressing my point, not just saying whatever you feel like."
Well, the problem is you are not a reasonable person, you're an extremist. A reasonable person would argue that Americans eat too much low quality meats raised in unhealthy conditions. They need to eat less meat, more artisan meats and a greater variety of meats, raised in conditions that produce tastier, healthier meats that need to be eaten with a truly balanced diet will not harm us. The Michael Pollan case: Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.
Your position however is killing and eating ANY animal is immoral and using any animal product is immoral. That is simply unreasonable and one thing you'll learn when you get older is, extremists will never be satisfied with giving them an inch. That's why I won't answer your question about what rights animals should have; if I give you an inch, you will take that ball and run with it off the field into batsh*t crazy vegan world. Come back as a reasonable person that accepts (correct usage) people's right to eat quality meats, but in moderation, and I will listen to you. Otherwise, go drown your sorrows in a bowl of lentils.
Well, the problem is you are not a reasonable person, you're an extremist. A reasonable person would argue that Americans eat too much low quality meats raised in unhealthy conditions. They need to eat less meat, more artisan meats and a greater variety of meats, raised in conditions that produce tastier, healthier meats that need to be eaten with a truly balanced diet will not harm us. The Michael Pollan case: Eat food. Not too much. Mostly plants.
Your position however is killing and eating ANY animal is immoral and using any animal product is immoral. That is simply unreasonable and one thing you'll learn when you get older is, extremists will never be satisfied with giving them an inch. That's why I won't answer your question about what rights animals should have; if I give you an inch, you will take that ball and run with it off the field into batsh*t crazy vegan world. Come back as a reasonable person that accepts (correct usage) people's right to eat quality meats, but in moderation, and I will listen to you. Otherwise, go drown your sorrows in a bowl of lentils.
211
@210
Your trying to talk down to me is really awesome, especially since I've been more than resoectful to you this entire time.
Why is my position extremist, why is it unreasonable? I've done it, I'm no one particularly special. I'm not asking that everyone does it tomorrow. I agree that people should eat less meat, should demand that the animals are treated with dignity. But that is only short term with the ultimate goal of living a cruelty free lifestyle. There are millions across the world who do it. Some for environmental reasons, some for health reasons, some for ethical reasons and some for religious reasons. There are foods that provide all the necessary nutrition, and the vast majority of it is cheaper than meat or dairy, or at least similarly priced.
Once again, people can do what they want, but I'm not going to stop having my beliefs, and if the opportunity arises that I could make the argument (like on a thread that is discussing veganism) I will put forth my views. While I would be happy to see people committing to eat less meat, and to buy it locally and to buy it from somewhere other than a factory farm, I wouldn't be satisfied.
There have been lots of pushes in this country and around the world for recognition of rights, passage of laws, etc. And your damn right that I'm not going to stop bringing up the subject until it is the way that I want it. Does this mean that I'll necessarily get it? Probably not, but then again, if I'm not there questioning it, who will be. I do the same for so many other issues, and to be honest, I'm proud of the work I do and the values I hold. If you feel differently, that's your prerogative, but again while I'm not going to go up to your table and call you a murderer, you may well see me at a protest or handing out literature. That is my right as an American, and without those sorts of rights, this country would be a much worse place. I am also fine with you counter protesting. But let me give you a suggestion, don't belittle people when you are doing it. I don't think there has been one time I have attacked you personally. I on the other hand have been called an extremist, a loon, I don't remember what else. Can I take it? Yeah I can, but it doesn't make for good discussion or debate. And since apparently you are so much older than me, I would have figured you already knew that. Or maybe it's just that old dogs can't learn new tricks...
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Your trying to talk down to me is really awesome, especially since I've been more than resoectful to you this entire time.
Why is my position extremist, why is it unreasonable? I've done it, I'm no one particularly special. I'm not asking that everyone does it tomorrow. I agree that people should eat less meat, should demand that the animals are treated with dignity. But that is only short term with the ultimate goal of living a cruelty free lifestyle. There are millions across the world who do it. Some for environmental reasons, some for health reasons, some for ethical reasons and some for religious reasons. There are foods that provide all the necessary nutrition, and the vast majority of it is cheaper than meat or dairy, or at least similarly priced.
Once again, people can do what they want, but I'm not going to stop having my beliefs, and if the opportunity arises that I could make the argument (like on a thread that is discussing veganism) I will put forth my views. While I would be happy to see people committing to eat less meat, and to buy it locally and to buy it from somewhere other than a factory farm, I wouldn't be satisfied.
There have been lots of pushes in this country and around the world for recognition of rights, passage of laws, etc. And your damn right that I'm not going to stop bringing up the subject until it is the way that I want it. Does this mean that I'll necessarily get it? Probably not, but then again, if I'm not there questioning it, who will be. I do the same for so many other issues, and to be honest, I'm proud of the work I do and the values I hold. If you feel differently, that's your prerogative, but again while I'm not going to go up to your table and call you a murderer, you may well see me at a protest or handing out literature. That is my right as an American, and without those sorts of rights, this country would be a much worse place. I am also fine with you counter protesting. But let me give you a suggestion, don't belittle people when you are doing it. I don't think there has been one time I have attacked you personally. I on the other hand have been called an extremist, a loon, I don't remember what else. Can I take it? Yeah I can, but it doesn't make for good discussion or debate. And since apparently you are so much older than me, I would have figured you already knew that. Or maybe it's just that old dogs can't learn new tricks...
212
" But that is only short term with the ultimate goal of living a cruelty free lifestyle. "
Trouble with most extremists is they don't think they are extremists. You, my little friend, are an extremist.
But thank me for calling you one, you can feel oppressed; it's the fuel needed to fire up an true fanatic (and a touch of paranoia).
Trouble with most extremists is they don't think they are extremists. You, my little friend, are an extremist.
But thank me for calling you one, you can feel oppressed; it's the fuel needed to fire up an true fanatic (and a touch of paranoia).
213
@212
Again it's funny when I am called the extremist for just not wanting things to be killed, and somehow you are just fine because you support the killing of innocent creatures...no seriously, makes perfect sense to me.
Again it's funny when I am called the extremist for just not wanting things to be killed, and somehow you are just fine because you support the killing of innocent creatures...no seriously, makes perfect sense to me.
214
" I am called the extremist for just not wanting things to be killed, "
Hey, I tried to meet you half way, understanding that animals need to be treated better so they produce better meats and people need to eat less meat (and pay more for it), and eat a greater variety of meats.
But as expected, half-way wasn't good enough for you was it? What better way to show your extremism.
Hey, I tried to meet you half way, understanding that animals need to be treated better so they produce better meats and people need to eat less meat (and pay more for it), and eat a greater variety of meats.
But as expected, half-way wasn't good enough for you was it? What better way to show your extremism.
215
Since you won't be reasonable, and meet me half way in this debate, I'll give up my artisan meats tomorrow and go buy a cheap, 3lb hormone pumping slab of beef at Safeway for the family.
216
"But let me give you a suggestion, don't belittle people when you are doing it. "
Why not? Humor is the best way to cut people down to size. That and eating a lentil diet.
Why not? Humor is the best way to cut people down to size. That and eating a lentil diet.
217
" I on the other hand have been called an extremist, a loon, I don't remember what else"
Well, 'immoral", "murder", "unethical" are words that have actual legal potential, have the potential to infringe on my rights if you have your way.
Calling you neurotic, silly, batsh*t crazy....these words have no legal ramifications. So while my words may be more offensive, yours are more dangerous.
Well, 'immoral", "murder", "unethical" are words that have actual legal potential, have the potential to infringe on my rights if you have your way.
Calling you neurotic, silly, batsh*t crazy....these words have no legal ramifications. So while my words may be more offensive, yours are more dangerous.
218
@216
Glad you could be mature about this...
I did say that I support people eating less meat, but I am not satisfied by it. Or are you saying that from now on I should just support things like less innocent people being put to death by the death penalty, or fewer civilian casualties in war? Of course it's a start, but I'm not going to be satisfied. Also, if I go in fighting for everyone to eat less meat, they probably won't change much at all. If I go in saying no meat at all, people might choose to eat less meat.
Again, I'm not sure how I'm not being reasonable. I don't want things killed, that sounds sane and reasonable to me. The question is, is it reasonable for innocent things to die?
Glad you could be mature about this...
I did say that I support people eating less meat, but I am not satisfied by it. Or are you saying that from now on I should just support things like less innocent people being put to death by the death penalty, or fewer civilian casualties in war? Of course it's a start, but I'm not going to be satisfied. Also, if I go in fighting for everyone to eat less meat, they probably won't change much at all. If I go in saying no meat at all, people might choose to eat less meat.
Again, I'm not sure how I'm not being reasonable. I don't want things killed, that sounds sane and reasonable to me. The question is, is it reasonable for innocent things to die?
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@217
I'm sorry if murder infringes on your rights...you know why it does? Because it is wrong! God forbid that you are forbade from murdering something! If you choose to use a different word for it, fine, but in the end you are killing something that is innocent and has nothing to deserve to be killed.
I'm sorry if murder infringes on your rights...you know why it does? Because it is wrong! God forbid that you are forbade from murdering something! If you choose to use a different word for it, fine, but in the end you are killing something that is innocent and has nothing to deserve to be killed.
221
@219
Again, not sure why asking for compassion and no killing is an extreme point of view...I think we'd be in a much better world if there was no killing
Again, not sure why asking for compassion and no killing is an extreme point of view...I think we'd be in a much better world if there was no killing
222
Killing animals isn't murder. Nice try.
Another sign of an an extremist? Unwilling to compromise. You sound like a pro life nut.
Another sign of an an extremist? Unwilling to compromise. You sound like a pro life nut.
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@222
Why is killing animals not murder? Is this all animals? Humans can kill whatever animals we want just because? I'd say that's a pretty extreme point of view actually.
I'm just not sure where I'm supposed to compromise more. I already said I think that it is great if people eat less meat, that is a start. But if I honestly think that killing an harming animals is wrong, where am I supposed to compromise. Isn't it better that I hold true to those beliefs? Is it just that you find me annoying? I kind of feel like that's a no since you've been talking here so long, on a thread that is about VEGANISM!
With any struggle, whether you think it is legitimate or not, there are those that believe you should compromise, and those that don't believe in the compromise and continue to push in hopes that their values become accepted. While this doesn't always happen, those people are the ones that are looked kindly upon. So yeah, I'll stick with my values.
Why is killing animals not murder? Is this all animals? Humans can kill whatever animals we want just because? I'd say that's a pretty extreme point of view actually.
I'm just not sure where I'm supposed to compromise more. I already said I think that it is great if people eat less meat, that is a start. But if I honestly think that killing an harming animals is wrong, where am I supposed to compromise. Isn't it better that I hold true to those beliefs? Is it just that you find me annoying? I kind of feel like that's a no since you've been talking here so long, on a thread that is about VEGANISM!
With any struggle, whether you think it is legitimate or not, there are those that believe you should compromise, and those that don't believe in the compromise and continue to push in hopes that their values become accepted. While this doesn't always happen, those people are the ones that are looked kindly upon. So yeah, I'll stick with my values.
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@224
We already talked about abortion...I'm done with that subject
95% of humanity believes in God, I don't, does that make me an extremist.
500 years ago 95% of humanity if not more believed the sun circled the earth, Galileo didn't, he was labled an extremist...turns out he was right
When challenging the status quo, you are always in the minority...doesn't necessarily mean you are wrong.
It's not as if I'm saying we should get violent and kill lots of things. It's funny how compassion is seen as such a threat
We already talked about abortion...I'm done with that subject
95% of humanity believes in God, I don't, does that make me an extremist.
500 years ago 95% of humanity if not more believed the sun circled the earth, Galileo didn't, he was labled an extremist...turns out he was right
When challenging the status quo, you are always in the minority...doesn't necessarily mean you are wrong.
It's not as if I'm saying we should get violent and kill lots of things. It's funny how compassion is seen as such a threat
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I'll admit I haven't read most of these comments, but I have worked on many grass seed farms, and killed hundreds of mice and snakes while running combines and wind-rowers harvest the seed used to sod pretty much every sporting field, park, and green-belt.
the rule in the grass seed warehouse was stomp on mice on sight. If you little vegan fucks really want to keep it real, stay off the grass.
the rule in the grass seed warehouse was stomp on mice on sight. If you little vegan fucks really want to keep it real, stay off the grass.
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I'll admit I haven't read most of these comments, but I have worked on many grass seed farms, and killed hundreds of mice and snakes while running combines and wind-rowers harvest the seed used to sod pretty much every sporting field, park, and green-belt.
the rule in the grass seed warehouse was stomp on mice on sight. If you little vegan fucks really want to keep it real, stay off the grass.
the rule in the grass seed warehouse was stomp on mice on sight. If you little vegan fucks really want to keep it real, stay off the grass.
230
Yes, maybe just like Saint Jude, Patron Saint of Desperate Causes? Or maybe Saint Dymphna, Patron Saint of the Mentally ill.
More likely, Saint Anthony the Abbot, Patron Saint of Butchers.
More likely, Saint Anthony the Abbot, Patron Saint of Butchers.
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Just remember, the Flying Spaghetti Monster created grains so that we could tear their little heads off, listen to them scream, and then turn them into images of His Noodliness for a nice spaghetti and meatball dinner.
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@97
Myself, and many vegans I know, went through a phase where we were total assholes about it. And then we stopped being 19. You know? Everybody is an asshole about SOMEthing when they're 19. ;)
For many of us who care about the suffering of the other animals on this gawdforsaken rock, when we first learned what really goes on in modern agriculture (and how it affects our planet and our bodies), we were shocked and outraged, and assumed that everybody who ISN'T shocked and outraged must just be unaware. So it's really tempting to go around shouting about one's shock and outrage, in the hopes that other people will stop contributing to the abject misery that results from factory farming.
But then, eventually, most of us realize that people don't care. It's not that they don't know (or if it is, it's a willful not-knowing). It's that they don't give a fuck. They care more about what tastes good than about how it got on their plate. Maybe it's that they just can't empathize with a being that isn't human. Maybe it's just that they are emotionally fatigued by all of the other totally legitimate things that they DO care about. I get that.
That people can know and not care still doesn't make me feel good about humanity, even if I get why. It's on a long list of things that make me feel quite a bit of despair, actually. But I did realize at some point in my mid-20s that I might as well shut up and eat my lentils, and put my energy into something else, because the only real power I have to change anything is via my wallet.
I do sometimes wonder why vegans get shit on so much, compared to other sorts of activists who are equally loud in their protests. A vegan diet is more humane, better for the environment, and usually healthier. I admire people who join the Peace Corps, chain themselves to old trees, raise awareness about genocide, ride their bikes everywhere. . . the things that *I* don't do. I don't feel the need to put them down in order to feel better about my inaction. Why can't people be like, "hey, good for you" rather than being assholes about it?
Whatever. *shrug*
More...
Myself, and many vegans I know, went through a phase where we were total assholes about it. And then we stopped being 19. You know? Everybody is an asshole about SOMEthing when they're 19. ;)
For many of us who care about the suffering of the other animals on this gawdforsaken rock, when we first learned what really goes on in modern agriculture (and how it affects our planet and our bodies), we were shocked and outraged, and assumed that everybody who ISN'T shocked and outraged must just be unaware. So it's really tempting to go around shouting about one's shock and outrage, in the hopes that other people will stop contributing to the abject misery that results from factory farming.
But then, eventually, most of us realize that people don't care. It's not that they don't know (or if it is, it's a willful not-knowing). It's that they don't give a fuck. They care more about what tastes good than about how it got on their plate. Maybe it's that they just can't empathize with a being that isn't human. Maybe it's just that they are emotionally fatigued by all of the other totally legitimate things that they DO care about. I get that.
That people can know and not care still doesn't make me feel good about humanity, even if I get why. It's on a long list of things that make me feel quite a bit of despair, actually. But I did realize at some point in my mid-20s that I might as well shut up and eat my lentils, and put my energy into something else, because the only real power I have to change anything is via my wallet.
I do sometimes wonder why vegans get shit on so much, compared to other sorts of activists who are equally loud in their protests. A vegan diet is more humane, better for the environment, and usually healthier. I admire people who join the Peace Corps, chain themselves to old trees, raise awareness about genocide, ride their bikes everywhere. . . the things that *I* don't do. I don't feel the need to put them down in order to feel better about my inaction. Why can't people be like, "hey, good for you" rather than being assholes about it?
Whatever. *shrug*
236
people who eat meat feel guilty.
they get defensive and like to yell about how much they LOVE MEAT.
"bacon's fucking great! i had a martini made with grease from bacon and then i wore the fur of a rat and made a ratini of it and then went to the chacha and used a condom made of a dick-skewed piglett to fuck my boyfriend's veal-filled mouth!"
dewd, you love meat, i get it. no one cares, shutup.
and that picture is hilarious.
they get defensive and like to yell about how much they LOVE MEAT.
"bacon's fucking great! i had a martini made with grease from bacon and then i wore the fur of a rat and made a ratini of it and then went to the chacha and used a condom made of a dick-skewed piglett to fuck my boyfriend's veal-filled mouth!"
dewd, you love meat, i get it. no one cares, shutup.
and that picture is hilarious.
238
"Oh, yeah, and one of the biggest contradictions of all, many vegans are also pro-choice. Killing an animal for food wrong. Killing a fetus because you don't want to be pregnant, okay?"
Rather an obviously loaded (and baited) statement that can't hope to deal with any real world complexity. Firstly, this assumption that anyone who's Pro-Choice just must be like the bitchy daughter from "Polyester" ("I'm gonna get an abortion, and I can't wait!") with a punch card at the local clinic ("The eighth one's free!") is beyond tiresome already. Just as I'd encourage effective safe sex methods to avoid pregnancy, I also neuter my pets so as to curtail the terrible cycle of birth and disease that is currently threatening an out-of-control cat population in particular.
Secondly, as an animal lover, I've also had to resort to euthanasia in cases of a sick and dying animal. I'm hardly doing cartwheels about it. The reality is that there are certain necessary "evils" in the world, that while they may be difficult choices, actually succeed in preventing further suffering down the line. Admittedly, this isn't a specious "Gotcha!" Non sequitor, but I question defending the virtues of slaughter houses and the factory farm system, which, even if you can look past the deplorable conditions, still essentially are woefully inefficient in terms of the amount of energy to required to produce a single steak or hamburger.
Rather an obviously loaded (and baited) statement that can't hope to deal with any real world complexity. Firstly, this assumption that anyone who's Pro-Choice just must be like the bitchy daughter from "Polyester" ("I'm gonna get an abortion, and I can't wait!") with a punch card at the local clinic ("The eighth one's free!") is beyond tiresome already. Just as I'd encourage effective safe sex methods to avoid pregnancy, I also neuter my pets so as to curtail the terrible cycle of birth and disease that is currently threatening an out-of-control cat population in particular.
Secondly, as an animal lover, I've also had to resort to euthanasia in cases of a sick and dying animal. I'm hardly doing cartwheels about it. The reality is that there are certain necessary "evils" in the world, that while they may be difficult choices, actually succeed in preventing further suffering down the line. Admittedly, this isn't a specious "Gotcha!" Non sequitor, but I question defending the virtues of slaughter houses and the factory farm system, which, even if you can look past the deplorable conditions, still essentially are woefully inefficient in terms of the amount of energy to required to produce a single steak or hamburger.
239
Everything that lives has to kill something to survive. Regardless of if you hide it in euphemisms like 'harvest' so you don't have to confront the fact you're killing something or if you try to use loaded words like murder to make it into a moral debate.
Plants are living entities also after all. Just because they don't react to being killed in a way that you, as a mammal, recognize does not change the fact that they were alive following their natural life cycle to reproduce their species before you (or more likely, someone else on your behalf) came along and killed them so that you could eat your 'organic' lentils or rice or carrots.
Plants are living entities also after all. Just because they don't react to being killed in a way that you, as a mammal, recognize does not change the fact that they were alive following their natural life cycle to reproduce their species before you (or more likely, someone else on your behalf) came along and killed them so that you could eat your 'organic' lentils or rice or carrots.
240
Hunting an animal, or humanely raising it and killing it, are not problems in my mind.
Factory farming is a huge problem. Those animals are tortured. Their entire experience of life is misery. And the result is products that are bad for us, and pretty substantial environmental destruction.
Talking about how we all kill to live completely misses the point.
Factory farming is a huge problem. Those animals are tortured. Their entire experience of life is misery. And the result is products that are bad for us, and pretty substantial environmental destruction.
Talking about how we all kill to live completely misses the point.
242
No, actually that IS the point when the people screaming the loudest aren't yelling "factory farming is bad!!!" but instead are nattering on about "Meat is murder! Save the sea kittens!" etc
Basically, if you can make a moral crusade out of my diet I should be free to do so with yours... Mushrooms are murder! Save the snow peas! ~shrug~ Difference is, except as a joke, I don't actually want to make a moral crusade out of your life. I just want you to keep your nose out of mine.
Sounds kinda familiar actually...
Basically, if you can make a moral crusade out of my diet I should be free to do so with yours... Mushrooms are murder! Save the snow peas! ~shrug~ Difference is, except as a joke, I don't actually want to make a moral crusade out of your life. I just want you to keep your nose out of mine.
Sounds kinda familiar actually...
243
Seriously, eat what you want and stop complaining (but veggies are better). And that shit is hilarious!
244
Buffoony Jean, trolling for comments again. Otherwise no one reads her Slog posts. Cheap shot, Buffoony. But that's your only gag, isn't it.
245
Shut up, all you complainers. So many people are freaking out about stupid stuff. Just because one person eats meat doesn't mean the other one thinks eating meat is wrong has the right to b*tch about it and vice versa. People like that give vegans, vegetarians, and omnivores (and yes, carnivores) a bad name. But there's nothing we can do - there will always be some idiots or annoying people in every group. Also, instead of attacking someone for his or her belief just say you disagree and why. You don't have to get into an argument over your disagreement, so don't bother. One more thing. Whoever wrote post #22 "Vegans never die, they just eventually begin to smell like prey and get eaten by carnivores who can't help themselves." and #44 "Vegans are immortal and never get sick." you rock and I love you for your light-hearted and hilarious posts.
246
"Really? I imagine both do bizarre things to cucumbers on lonely nights."
You can call me a queer vegan. Although cucumbers? Can we be a little more original? I don't eat meat or any products that have came from animals but I sure as hell do enjoy eating my girlfriend ;)
You can call me a queer vegan. Although cucumbers? Can we be a little more original? I don't eat meat or any products that have came from animals but I sure as hell do enjoy eating my girlfriend ;)
248
Agreed, not only Godwin's law, but also abortion and did I see euthanasia being mentioned?
I'm a veggie as I don't believe in cruelty to animals and that made me laugh.
I don't preach to people about being veggie. Thing is though, if I'm eating a meal with people, I'll get hassled as to why I'm not eating meat. I think meat eaters must have an underlying sense of guilt, they try and hide it cos they like the taste of meat better than the life of animals. I wish they'd just come right out and say it instead of all the other stuff.
I'm a veggie as I don't believe in cruelty to animals and that made me laugh.
I don't preach to people about being veggie. Thing is though, if I'm eating a meal with people, I'll get hassled as to why I'm not eating meat. I think meat eaters must have an underlying sense of guilt, they try and hide it cos they like the taste of meat better than the life of animals. I wish they'd just come right out and say it instead of all the other stuff.
250
ajohnx
While you make some good points regarding peoples motivation for making fun of others for these types of choices I can't help but notice the superiority you feel for yourself in the decision you made. You may not try to "convert" others but I can tell just by reading the few paragraphs you posted the self righteousness that you are conveying (although not intentional).
I do not agree with the industrialization of our food chain but eating other animals is not cruel. Carnivores and Omnivores (like ourselves) are not a mistake but natural selection. To think that you can reason beyond millions of years of evolution and come across like you transcended some error is ridiculous.
While you make some good points regarding peoples motivation for making fun of others for these types of choices I can't help but notice the superiority you feel for yourself in the decision you made. You may not try to "convert" others but I can tell just by reading the few paragraphs you posted the self righteousness that you are conveying (although not intentional).
I do not agree with the industrialization of our food chain but eating other animals is not cruel. Carnivores and Omnivores (like ourselves) are not a mistake but natural selection. To think that you can reason beyond millions of years of evolution and come across like you transcended some error is ridiculous.
251
You vegans and vegetarians can try to deny death all you want, but the fact is, your salad ate meat. If you don't understand growing plants, you might tell yourself, "My salad ate poop. I don't have to worry about the deaths of animals because I'm only eating poop today." But that isn't true. The yield of plants would be pitiful if they did not receive necessary nutrients from the bones and blood of animals.
Roxx, non-vegetarians feel no guilt about their eating meat. I ask vegetarians all the time why they don't eat meat, and it has nothing to do with me thinking about my own relationship with the animals. I want to know what bs reason they have for being a vegetarian. Nutritionally, it isn't sound, as 45% of vegetarians (a whopping 85% of vegans) suffer from malnutrition. 45%! That's because many nutrients, like iron, are easier for our bodies to take in if they come from ANIMAL sources, and you may require as much as twice as much from vegetable sources. That's far more leafy greens than you need to get all your vitamins and minerals, like folate. It is also hard to find good plant sources of some nutrients, particularly B-vitamins 6 and 12, and the few plant sources generally contain very little. It makes far more sense to eat the right amount of meat to get meat nutrients and the right amount of plants to get plant nutrients than eat far more of the latter than your body is even comfortable with.
That isn't to say there aren't perfectly good vegetarian diets, but many vegetarians I meat don't even understand basic protein combinations (like beans and rice). They rely on soy, which isn't surprising since it is the ONLY non-meat complete protein source.
Obviously, the ethical argument is shot down by the fact that all life depends on death, so your "ethics" are really denial. The only legit excuse I've ever heard, actually, was a guy from India who was raised vegetarian. You like what you eat as a kid, so it is the food he likes. Period. End of discussion. But any other argument just doesn't hold up.
Hope you vegans and vegetarians who have been trying to deny death can live with yourselves now that I have made you aware that your continued existence CONSTANTLY depends on it.
More...
Roxx, non-vegetarians feel no guilt about their eating meat. I ask vegetarians all the time why they don't eat meat, and it has nothing to do with me thinking about my own relationship with the animals. I want to know what bs reason they have for being a vegetarian. Nutritionally, it isn't sound, as 45% of vegetarians (a whopping 85% of vegans) suffer from malnutrition. 45%! That's because many nutrients, like iron, are easier for our bodies to take in if they come from ANIMAL sources, and you may require as much as twice as much from vegetable sources. That's far more leafy greens than you need to get all your vitamins and minerals, like folate. It is also hard to find good plant sources of some nutrients, particularly B-vitamins 6 and 12, and the few plant sources generally contain very little. It makes far more sense to eat the right amount of meat to get meat nutrients and the right amount of plants to get plant nutrients than eat far more of the latter than your body is even comfortable with.
That isn't to say there aren't perfectly good vegetarian diets, but many vegetarians I meat don't even understand basic protein combinations (like beans and rice). They rely on soy, which isn't surprising since it is the ONLY non-meat complete protein source.
Obviously, the ethical argument is shot down by the fact that all life depends on death, so your "ethics" are really denial. The only legit excuse I've ever heard, actually, was a guy from India who was raised vegetarian. You like what you eat as a kid, so it is the food he likes. Period. End of discussion. But any other argument just doesn't hold up.
Hope you vegans and vegetarians who have been trying to deny death can live with yourselves now that I have made you aware that your continued existence CONSTANTLY depends on it.
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