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News & ArtsMonday, June 22, 2009
Religion There Is No Morality Without Religion
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 12:18 PM
A man who told authorities he is a church elder called a 13-year-old boy over to his car in a 7-Eleven parking lot in Central Islip Sunday evening—and offered the boy money for sex, police said. The boy, who was riding a bicycle, got a description of the car and noted the license plate and called police.Suffolk County police found the car and at about 7:45 p.m. arrested Rosemberg Berrios, 42, of Whitetail Lane, Central Islip. Berrios told officers he is an elder in a Seventh Day Adventist Church in Patchogue, police said.
1
Dan, since you are pro-prostitution, what is the problem here?
That the person being propositioned was 13? What if he was REALLY mature, really precocious and knew what he was doing, I mean, where do we draw the line at underagers?
Ohhhhh that's right, the line is drawn where it works for your argument.
(I am not advocating for child sex, I am devil's advocating.)
That the person being propositioned was 13? What if he was REALLY mature, really precocious and knew what he was doing, I mean, where do we draw the line at underagers?
Ohhhhh that's right, the line is drawn where it works for your argument.
(I am not advocating for child sex, I am devil's advocating.)
2
Kudos to the 13-year-old boy for having the wherewithal to get the car make, model, and license number after being approached by a churchy John! That's really quite impressive.
3
@1: WTF? Seriously, what the hell are you talking about? All I hear is "Dan, p-p-pleaaase pay attention to me!!! Please!?!" Pathetic. Really? You want to be the devil's advocate and argue FOR the rights of a middle aged church elder who wants to buy sex from a 13 year old boy (who is NOT a prostitute, he's just some kid, not that it matters much)? Why? Oh yeah, you want Dan to pay attention to you. How sad.
4
Naw naw naw, Carollani.
I don't want Dan to pay attention to me, I want to pay attention to Dan's malleable logic.
"Thanks for playing SLOG"!!!
I don't want Dan to pay attention to me, I want to pay attention to Dan's malleable logic.
"Thanks for playing SLOG"!!!
8
So it's "malleable logic" to allow sex and money to exchange between consenting adults, but not between an old man and an unsuspecting child.
In order to see that as malleable logic, you must not see pubescence/adulthood as being a very important distinction. So... are you a pedophile?
In order to see that as malleable logic, you must not see pubescence/adulthood as being a very important distinction. So... are you a pedophile?
10
Not saying I'm backing Parker Todd who does, indeed seem to be confusing the issues of prostitution and child predation, but a) there is also a difference between a child predator and a pedophile even though it's common parlance to confuse the two; it is disparaging to those who belong in the latter group but not the former.
As for the difference between pubescence and adulthood, like the delay of alcohol access, delaying allowance for sexual exploration has not reduced the number of mistakes made, only deferred them to later years. Contemporary society ethics in the US do not well address that children naturally become sexually curious, sexually experimental and sexually active long before their parents, or their community, are ready for them to be.
And again, this is not to condone Mr. Berrios's actions, which remain reprehensible. The fact that the boy responded appropriately is, however indicative of his maturity, and awareness of the situation.
In my own (not so) humble opinion our values are fucked up when we freak out sooner about 8-year-olds playing The Sims 3 than we do about them playing Left 4 Dead.
As for the difference between pubescence and adulthood, like the delay of alcohol access, delaying allowance for sexual exploration has not reduced the number of mistakes made, only deferred them to later years. Contemporary society ethics in the US do not well address that children naturally become sexually curious, sexually experimental and sexually active long before their parents, or their community, are ready for them to be.
And again, this is not to condone Mr. Berrios's actions, which remain reprehensible. The fact that the boy responded appropriately is, however indicative of his maturity, and awareness of the situation.
In my own (not so) humble opinion our values are fucked up when we freak out sooner about 8-year-olds playing The Sims 3 than we do about them playing Left 4 Dead.
11
Perhaps parents should keep their children away from 7-11s because of all the churchy pedophile wannabe johns hanging out in the parking lot.
12
We reaffirm, without hesitation, our long-standing position. As expressed in the Church's Fundamental Beliefs, "marriage was divinely established in Eden and affirmed by Jesus to be a lifelong union between a man and a woman in loving companionship."
--Seventh Day Adventist website, http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/stateme…
Sorry, TiNMWHSC. They've established clearly their position of intolerance based on a specific slant on biblical interpretation. Until the SDAs change their opinion to accept all gays as equal to hets (and to disclaim a monopoly on morality and righteousness), they get to be held to the standards they propose to demonstrate.
--Seventh Day Adventist website, http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/stateme…
Sorry, TiNMWHSC. They've established clearly their position of intolerance based on a specific slant on biblical interpretation. Until the SDAs change their opinion to accept all gays as equal to hets (and to disclaim a monopoly on morality and righteousness), they get to be held to the standards they propose to demonstrate.
14
I think Dan's whole point here was that there's a huge block of Christo-fascists who spout off about the evils of secular humanism and make the case that "There Is No Morality Without Religion" (read: one cannot be both a good person and nonreligious) yet consistently ignore the variety of wrongs religious people commit. These people are more concerned with keeping Dan & other gays from gaining the right to marry because of some supposed detrimental effect on society while their legions are out preying on 13 year-olds.
Of course, I could be wrong about what Dan intended. That's just what I'm guessing. And nowhere have I seen Dan advocate for sex between adults and minors. He's always come out unequivocally against it.
Of course, I could be wrong about what Dan intended. That's just what I'm guessing. And nowhere have I seen Dan advocate for sex between adults and minors. He's always come out unequivocally against it.
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