Monday, June 22, 2009
International The Oppression of Freedom
Posted by Charles Mudede on Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 1:51 PM
Why the rest hate the West:
President Nicolas Sarkozy said the Muslim burqa would not be welcome in France, calling the full-body religious gown a sign of the "debasement" of women.We all (meaning, all who are cosmopolitan) understand the stupidity of the burqa. But to ban it is even more stupid than the burqa.In the first presidential address to parliament in 136 years, Sarkozy faced critics who fear the burqa issue could stigmatize France's Muslims and said he supported banning the garment from being worn in public.
"In our country, we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity," Sarkozy said to extended applause at the Chateau of Versailles, southwest of Paris.
And besides, the burqa presents an opening to unexpected social spaces, in which new games of desire can emerge.
A burqa may not be the flirtiest garment ever invented for women. The highly modest head-to-toe robe even shrouds the eyes, so for centuries it’s been difficult for women wearing them to send suggestive signals to men.I like this game. It's called "electronic flirting."But now a German designer has debuted a digitally-enabled burqa that can broadcast a photo of the wearer to nearby mobile phones. Markus Kison calls it the “CharmingBurka,” and says it isn’t forbidden by Islamic law.
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1
if there is more than one woman wearing a burqua, (which i expect) how would you know who belongs to the picture?
2
Did you see the Entourage episode with Turtle and the Rabbit-Squirrel sex? Similar idea. This way gay people could have sex with women (properly) while imagining that the form beneath the veil is a man. Best of all worlds.
3
More on Amanda, esp. the three-inch versus 6.5-inches issue.
I'm sure Charles could make much of that one.
I'm sure Charles could make much of that one.
5
I tend to agree with Sarkozy on this one: social isolation in the name of religion of a whole sex seems to be one of those religious practices which shouldn't be encouraged.
8
The burka makes women look: A.) like ghosts; B.) like big lumps of clay; C.) like non-entities.
In short, the burka is designed specifically to not only de-emphasize the female form, but to negate the very concept of females as being "human". It's just as much a form of objectification as is the gratuitous display of the female form that it's supposedly intended to counter; both are simply two sides of the same coin.
In short, the burka is designed specifically to not only de-emphasize the female form, but to negate the very concept of females as being "human". It's just as much a form of objectification as is the gratuitous display of the female form that it's supposedly intended to counter; both are simply two sides of the same coin.
10
The burqa should be banned. It's a symbol of oppression. Much like the "Stars and Bars" in the American South. It symbolized dehumanizing oppression.
11
@9: How so? You're a classic burqa-wearing wipe yourself: what's the dif between a burqa and a ridiculous avatar of an onion? Send me an image of Angelina and I'd fuck you, too (and you'd like it). Best of all worlds, don't you think?
12
You don't ban something to fight oppression.
The way to help women is to give them the choice to wear the burqa or not, and support that choice legally through protecting women in their relations with male relatives and in protecting their choice at work and in public. France is doing the exactly wrong thing.
The way to help women is to give them the choice to wear the burqa or not, and support that choice legally through protecting women in their relations with male relatives and in protecting their choice at work and in public. France is doing the exactly wrong thing.
13
I have a problem with taking away people's choices. They are not harming anyone so long as they are free to not wear one. But the first time some guy dons a burqa and robs a bank, all bets are off.
14
I wonder, if the burqa is banned, what proportion of women who currently wear the burqa would just not be allowed to (or would choose not to) leave the house.
16
Hooray Sarkozy in this case.
Stay in your fucking turd-world religious shithole country if you want to put women in bags.
Stay in your fucking turd-world religious shithole country if you want to put women in bags.
18
The French approach to secularism/separation of church and state is to delete all (apparent) traces of religion from public life. Do religion on your own time, they say.
The American approach is to (apparently) tolerate everyone's differences in public and engage in dialog about them.
Both approaches are imperfectly applied, but it's interesting how they are motivated by the same thing.
The American approach is to (apparently) tolerate everyone's differences in public and engage in dialog about them.
Both approaches are imperfectly applied, but it's interesting how they are motivated by the same thing.
20
@14,
You can be sure that those women would be shut up in their homes. The same thing happened in Iran when the Shah banned the chador.
And there's no way the burqa is sexy. The chador? Sure. The burqa? No. Like Comte noted, that thing makes the wearer look like a blob.
You can be sure that those women would be shut up in their homes. The same thing happened in Iran when the Shah banned the chador.
And there's no way the burqa is sexy. The chador? Sure. The burqa? No. Like Comte noted, that thing makes the wearer look like a blob.
21
Both the chador and burqa are inappropriate in Fremont.
Nudity, on the other hand, we have no prob with.
Nudity, on the other hand, we have no prob with.
22
While I'm certainly no fan of the burqa (by which I mean I hate the fucking burqa), my concern with what's happening in France is that by banning burqa-wearing in public, the government will confine burqa-wearers to their homes, thus making them even more imprisoned than they previously were. Besides, banning a certain type of clothing, even if it is really oppressive and horrible, is not the kind of thing an enlightened, secular society should be doing.
But, if they do actually ban the burqa, they should ban all garments that involve any kind of human rights violation. Which would, of course, require banning the majority of garments, as they are primarily made in inhumane sweatshops where people work in shit conditions for shit money.
But, if they do actually ban the burqa, they should ban all garments that involve any kind of human rights violation. Which would, of course, require banning the majority of garments, as they are primarily made in inhumane sweatshops where people work in shit conditions for shit money.
24
Here's an idea, instead of men deciding what women can and cannot wear, let's have them STFU and let the ladies decide what kind of fashion statement they want to make. Sarkozy is a well-meaning man, but he's still a man and what women do and don't wear are really none of his damn business...just like it's not the Aya-freakin'-tollah's business either.
25
My Iranian secular-minded (and non-burqa/chador-wearing) exile friends surprised me: when I made a remark predicated on the assumption that these garments were oppressive and demeaning, their response was "You don't understand. They're not oppressive--they give women a way to go about their business without being objectified by men."
Which left me wondering how much of their attitude was Stockholm syndrome, and how much was enculturation in a society where uncovered women could be subject to rape and/or religious-law punishments (and can those two responses be separated?).
I concur with @12.
Which left me wondering how much of their attitude was Stockholm syndrome, and how much was enculturation in a society where uncovered women could be subject to rape and/or religious-law punishments (and can those two responses be separated?).
I concur with @12.
26
In France a young girl cannot wear a burka in school.
In Iran a young girl must wear a burka in school.
In red state Oklahoma a young girl may or mat not wear a burka to school- she decides.
In Iran a young girl must wear a burka in school.
In red state Oklahoma a young girl may or mat not wear a burka to school- she decides.
27
@25:
I guess that might make some sense, IF women were allowed to go out unaccompanied, but the fact is, in most Islamic countries that's not the case. And I rather doubt that, given the choice, most women would voluntarily adopt the chador or Burka, if other options were freely available to them. I mean, it's not exactly like covering ones self "cap-a-pe'" has caught on as a universal fashion trend, has it?
The burka has only one purpose: to restrict the viewing of a particular female solely to her possessors, namely, her father or husband, or in their absence, to her male kin (viewing by other females doesn't count, since they themselves are simply considered property as well; one does not worry about hiding a ewe from other ewes, only from the rams).
They can say it's all about non-objectification, but it's really quite the opposite. It is in point of fact a statement of proprietary rights: "this is MY property, and you are not allowed to gaze upon it without my express permission."
I guess that might make some sense, IF women were allowed to go out unaccompanied, but the fact is, in most Islamic countries that's not the case. And I rather doubt that, given the choice, most women would voluntarily adopt the chador or Burka, if other options were freely available to them. I mean, it's not exactly like covering ones self "cap-a-pe'" has caught on as a universal fashion trend, has it?
The burka has only one purpose: to restrict the viewing of a particular female solely to her possessors, namely, her father or husband, or in their absence, to her male kin (viewing by other females doesn't count, since they themselves are simply considered property as well; one does not worry about hiding a ewe from other ewes, only from the rams).
They can say it's all about non-objectification, but it's really quite the opposite. It is in point of fact a statement of proprietary rights: "this is MY property, and you are not allowed to gaze upon it without my express permission."
28
"President Nicolas Sarkozy said the Muslim burqa would not be welcome in France"
Perhaps he should have said the burka would be welcome in France when wearing a short skirt, heels, and low cut top are welcome in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran. Respect is a two way street. Charles claims Sarkozy's remarks is why everyone hates the west. I think it is the opposite, everyone resents having to respect Islam when Islam respects no one. Someone above said "it is a matter of choise". When "it is a matter of choise" if I wear a burka (or NOT) in Saudi Arabia I will take that seriously. Until respecting cultural differences is a two way street claims of Muslims not be sufficiently appeased will fall on deaf ears.
Perhaps he should have said the burka would be welcome in France when wearing a short skirt, heels, and low cut top are welcome in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran. Respect is a two way street. Charles claims Sarkozy's remarks is why everyone hates the west. I think it is the opposite, everyone resents having to respect Islam when Islam respects no one. Someone above said "it is a matter of choise". When "it is a matter of choise" if I wear a burka (or NOT) in Saudi Arabia I will take that seriously. Until respecting cultural differences is a two way street claims of Muslims not be sufficiently appeased will fall on deaf ears.
29
Go and read this excellent piece http://img.slate.com/media/22/CHAP5.Benn… on the subject of the veil in France. It's about the ban on headscarves in schools but it has powerful implications for this proposed ban as well. The short of it is that women in France who wear the veil often do so involuntarily, having been coerced into doing so by their families. These women are caught in a conflict in which the Law of human-rights-respecting, democratic France is pitted against the de facto "law" that rules the Muslim neighborhoods- a decidedly undemocratic law that is made by fundamentalst Muslim men and then forced on those who want to be secular and free. These women do not want to belong to the fundamentalists, they want to belong to the Republic of France, and the Republic has an obligation to protect them from the oppressive "Law of the Brothers".
30
What @16 and @28 said.
@26: That is undoubtedly the case at the moment. But I'm willing to bet my next paycheck that if a girl in an Oklahoma school started wearing a burka, she'd be sent home, and there would be a local law against it before you could say "redneck."
@26: That is undoubtedly the case at the moment. But I'm willing to bet my next paycheck that if a girl in an Oklahoma school started wearing a burka, she'd be sent home, and there would be a local law against it before you could say "redneck."
31
Thank you, @27, @28 and @29. Allowing a woman from a fundamentalist Muslim family to wear the burqa is NOT to allow her "choice." It is to allow her family/father/fucked-up patriarchal religion to make that choice for her. Whether she accepts it or not is beside the point -- if they say wear it, she must wear it. Which is what Sarkozy opposes, so I support his statement.
This is not about "choice," it is about being denied a choice.
This is not about "choice," it is about being denied a choice.
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