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News & ArtsMonday, June 22, 2009
News That Seems Kinda Nuts
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 2:58 PM
A little-noticed measure passed by the Legislature and signed into law by the governor will extend in-state tuition rates at Washington state colleges and universities to foreign professionals at companies such as Microsoft and Amazon, as well as to their children and spouses.... The measure passed amid a roiling budget crisis and hundreds of millions of dollars in cutbacks to higher education. It was nicknamed the "Microsoft subsidy bill" by some lawmakers who say the software giant and its workers surely could afford to pay the higher tuition rates.
1
I dunno, it encourages employees at these companies to keep learning. That's probably not a bad thing. And it encourages the employers to encourage the employees to keep learning. This keeps more, smarter, people at these companies and in the area. That is a Good Thing. Yeah, they could afford it, but you know they wouldn't. Nothing to get worked up about.
2
The measure probably should have included an income limit; actually, a lot of foreign nationals working at MS and Amazon.com and wherever else in Washington don't earn executive salaries--they're just middle class, if that. In some cases, they are subject to extra taxation in their home countries, too, even though they're living and working in the U.S. All that makes tuition a bit harder to afford than you'd think if you need to get continuing education done here, or if you need to send your kids to college here.
3
Is this anymore nuts than out-of-state tuition fees? If the theory is that it's to replace lost tax revenue, shouldn't this be done at the state-government level kids aren't being punished for wanting to get the fuck out of Dodge?
Also, if the number of additional paying students can displace the lost tuition (it'd have to be a situation where few students are enrolled now under out-of-state, and a lot of students enroll after), this would actually make money. I'm sure the numbers would disprove that pretty instantly, but it's possible.
That said, fuck them.
Also, if the number of additional paying students can displace the lost tuition (it'd have to be a situation where few students are enrolled now under out-of-state, and a lot of students enroll after), this would actually make money. I'm sure the numbers would disprove that pretty instantly, but it's possible.
That said, fuck them.
4
We're making massive cuts in higher education. Why do these folks get the tuition break again? jmendonsa, these are subsidized tuition rates, so no matter how few students are enrolled under out-of-state, each new student under this program means a subsidy from the state.
5
If you've been living in the state for a year, as the bill requires, then these foreign nationals HAVE been paying local taxes (and their employers have been paying B&O taxes on their salaries), so what's the problem?
6
The problem is that my sister and my brother and their kid(s), born in America, living in Cali, can't move here and get the same deal.
They have to wait three years to become in-state tuition, while some queue-jumping H1-B visa holder gets in-state tuition after only one year.
Arguing for a three-year qualification - sure.
Arguing that all American citizens qualify after one year - sure.
But not a two-tiered system where citizens are treated as third-class citizens (behind CEOs and their H1-B wage slaves).
They have to wait three years to become in-state tuition, while some queue-jumping H1-B visa holder gets in-state tuition after only one year.
Arguing for a three-year qualification - sure.
Arguing that all American citizens qualify after one year - sure.
But not a two-tiered system where citizens are treated as third-class citizens (behind CEOs and their H1-B wage slaves).
7
Ummm, a lot of people at Microsoft have middle class salaries. And most visa workers are sole providers for their families.
Private school tuition rates would be a huge stretch, especially if you've got multiple kids. Without an option they can afford, you're basically telling them they're kids don't get to go to college.
Or I suppose they could just send their firstborn son.
Private school tuition rates would be a huge stretch, especially if you've got multiple kids. Without an option they can afford, you're basically telling them they're kids don't get to go to college.
Or I suppose they could just send their firstborn son.
8
I think if employees at these companies want to learn more either their company should pay for it or they themselves should pay for it. I don't think anyone with a high paying job who's not expected to live here past their contracts with the company should get to use public money for personal education. I understand wanting to give people "equal opportunity" but what about the people who have lived here all their life and have a shitty job? I make like 14 an hour and I don't qualify for jack shit, I've lived here all my life, I feel like I deserve that money more than some foreigner who's just going to leave soon.
9
Avtar @1:
Avtar's right. We live in a state of unlimited resources where we should never have to say no to people. Do we really want Washington to be the state of no? It's not like there are actual hard-working taxpayers living in the state of Washington who are going to be picking up this bill. Also, it's not like there are a limited number of places available at these colleges and actual residents are going to be displaced because of these foreign-worker students.
Also, while we're at it, I think it's time WashDOT opened up the HOV lanes to Microsoft employees.
I dunno, it encourages employees at these companies to keep learning. That's probably not a bad thing. And it encourages the employers to encourage the employees to keep learning. This keeps more, smarter, people at these companies and in the area. That is a Good Thing.
Avtar's right. We live in a state of unlimited resources where we should never have to say no to people. Do we really want Washington to be the state of no? It's not like there are actual hard-working taxpayers living in the state of Washington who are going to be picking up this bill. Also, it's not like there are a limited number of places available at these colleges and actual residents are going to be displaced because of these foreign-worker students.
Also, while we're at it, I think it's time WashDOT opened up the HOV lanes to Microsoft employees.
10
My student loans and I say; "Fuck you Micro-softies... fuck you in the goatass!"
(my student loans are from the 90's...)
(my student loans are from the 90's...)
12
This is actually not as dumb as it sounds. Yes, Microsoft and Amazon have lots of foreign workers that they employ, but there are also tons of people on H1-B visas who are working through agencies who bring them over and then pay them well below a standard wage for those jobs.
Here's how it works. You're a guy in India, and an agency says, "Hey, you're good at the IT thing, how about we pay your way to come to America, pay for your visa, and give you a place to live and a job?" You say, "well, seeing as I'm making even shittier money here, yeah, that sounds great."
What's the catch? Well, these agencies then contract out their H1-B workers to other agencies who actually place them; the first agency takes care of the legal stuff, the second one puts the worker in a job. If the placing agency installs a worker in a position where they can bill $45 an hour, the placing agency will skim 40% off the top, bringing the wage down to roughly $25 an hour. Then, the agency who brought the worker over will skim another 40% (gotta cover those immigration costs, right?), bringing the total wage the H1-B worker receives down to, oh, $16/hour.
Oh, and the agencies who import workers, they also usually "keep the passport on file" for the H1-B worker, so they can't leave the country or get another job. If the worker wants to leave the agency before the end of their H1-B term (six years), they will often be forced to buy out the rest of their contract.
This is a racket, and these people are essentially indentured servants, forced to work well below standard wage for highly skilled jobs. If this new legislation allows these people to send their kids to school, it's a good thing.
Here's how it works. You're a guy in India, and an agency says, "Hey, you're good at the IT thing, how about we pay your way to come to America, pay for your visa, and give you a place to live and a job?" You say, "well, seeing as I'm making even shittier money here, yeah, that sounds great."
What's the catch? Well, these agencies then contract out their H1-B workers to other agencies who actually place them; the first agency takes care of the legal stuff, the second one puts the worker in a job. If the placing agency installs a worker in a position where they can bill $45 an hour, the placing agency will skim 40% off the top, bringing the wage down to roughly $25 an hour. Then, the agency who brought the worker over will skim another 40% (gotta cover those immigration costs, right?), bringing the total wage the H1-B worker receives down to, oh, $16/hour.
Oh, and the agencies who import workers, they also usually "keep the passport on file" for the H1-B worker, so they can't leave the country or get another job. If the worker wants to leave the agency before the end of their H1-B term (six years), they will often be forced to buy out the rest of their contract.
This is a racket, and these people are essentially indentured servants, forced to work well below standard wage for highly skilled jobs. If this new legislation allows these people to send their kids to school, it's a good thing.
13
I say the need right here is great enough that subsidies for for foreign nationals should be paid by their employers. Take care of our children first.
14
@12: Or "local software giants" could quit hiring people in this manner, and quit doing business with agencies who operate like this, pay the employees directly, and help with tuition as an incentive to work for them. Oh well.
15
Wow. Shouldn't you fuckers be guarding the Canadian border against Mexicans?
As a child of immigrants, I find it extremely fucking offensive that you think I should lose rights that you have because I'm not a purebred white ancestor of the pilgrims. It was serendipity that I was born on US soil -- if I hadn't been, I would have had no access to higher education and I'd probably be working in a factory or apple orchard somewhere to stay alive.
Immigrants are PEOPLE. They deserve education, health care, and other civil rights as much as you do.
As a child of immigrants, I find it extremely fucking offensive that you think I should lose rights that you have because I'm not a purebred white ancestor of the pilgrims. It was serendipity that I was born on US soil -- if I hadn't been, I would have had no access to higher education and I'd probably be working in a factory or apple orchard somewhere to stay alive.
Immigrants are PEOPLE. They deserve education, health care, and other civil rights as much as you do.
16
H1-B workers DO pay taxes. They pay the same taxes as anyone else. Income, social security, etc. The H1-B is the visa you get before you get your green card, and the only difference is that the H1-B only permits you to work for a specific employer (who sponsors your visa). Once you're on a green card, you can work for anyone.
This is not an issue of illegal immigrants getting special treatment. These people are tax-paying residents that the US foreign policy allows us to bring over to do work where we don't have enough skilled labor.
This is not an issue of illegal immigrants getting special treatment. These people are tax-paying residents that the US foreign policy allows us to bring over to do work where we don't have enough skilled labor.
17
This is a public-relations nightmare; but from what I've read does not expand the number of limited slots available for this queue-jumping, preferential treatment. Earlier members of this privileged class (children of diplomatic workers, and some others) will now be competing for the tiny number of places with Microsoft's H1B brigade. Your tax dollars at work.
18
this queue-jumping, preferential treatment. Earlier members of this privileged class
Are you talking about the white people born in this state who have to wait zero months and jump through zero hoops to gain access to subsidized education?
will now be competing for the tiny number of places
You mean people will have to compete to get into UW, instead of basing acceptance on country of origin and parental wealth?!
You mean our other universities and community colleges might drop their acceptance rate from 100% to 99.99999%?!
You mean our white people will now have to compete with more college-educated brown people in the workplace?!
Oh noes.
19
I figures that you would be just as rabid and irrational on this issue as you are with veganism.
Are you fucking kidding? Of course you wouldn't be working in a factory or an apple orchard. Odds are that at some point you'd become a U.S. citizen and accrue all the rights and responsibilities that that entails. And I say that as a child of an immigrant--who immigrated here legally and became a citizen several years after that. Obtaining citizenship is not impossible.
As a child of immigrants, I find it extremely fucking offensive that you think I should lose rights that you have because I'm not a purebred white ancestor of the pilgrims. It was serendipity that I was born on US soil -- if I hadn't been, I would have had no access to higher education and I'd probably be working in a factory or apple orchard somewhere to stay alive.
I figures that you would be just as rabid and irrational on this issue as you are with veganism.
Are you fucking kidding? Of course you wouldn't be working in a factory or an apple orchard. Odds are that at some point you'd become a U.S. citizen and accrue all the rights and responsibilities that that entails. And I say that as a child of an immigrant--who immigrated here legally and became a citizen several years after that. Obtaining citizenship is not impossible.
20
@ lizzie,
Yes, all immigrants do deserve civil rights. Do you know what else immigrants deserve? To pay taxes for the social services they use just like all the other citizens of this country do. The people who were born (or naturalized) citizens that lived in this country for probably decades have paid in more taxes than any H1-B worker pays in the few short years before they qualify for in-state tuition. That is why it is fair to make them pay more. State universities are supported by tax dollars reaped off the backs of their students tax-paying parents. Therefore the tax-paying parents get to pass that along to their kids in the form of subsidized tuition. People who haven't been forking over taxes for 18 + years don't get that subsidy.
Yes, all immigrants do deserve civil rights. Do you know what else immigrants deserve? To pay taxes for the social services they use just like all the other citizens of this country do. The people who were born (or naturalized) citizens that lived in this country for probably decades have paid in more taxes than any H1-B worker pays in the few short years before they qualify for in-state tuition. That is why it is fair to make them pay more. State universities are supported by tax dollars reaped off the backs of their students tax-paying parents. Therefore the tax-paying parents get to pass that along to their kids in the form of subsidized tuition. People who haven't been forking over taxes for 18 + years don't get that subsidy.
21
Seems kinda like a great idea. Pretty difficult to get an H1-B without already having a college degree and giving educated foreign immigrant workers the benefits of state residency will encourage them to stay in the ol WA and contribute to our economy.
On the other hand, giving out-of-staters the lower in-state rate after only a year residence would just be a hand-out to non-WA college kids.
On the other hand, giving out-of-staters the lower in-state rate after only a year residence would just be a hand-out to non-WA college kids.
22
Keshmeshi, tell that to the millions of immigrants in this country working in factories or farms because they have no other options.
The path to citizenship if you don't have family includes permanent employer sponsorship (they have to prove they need to hire an immigrant for a permanent position, not an H1-B visa) and then a five year waiting period. Or win the green card lottery and then wait five years.
If I was born off of US soil, I would have to wait until I was 18 and SOMEHOW find an employer who would permanently sponsor an uneducated immigrant, and then wait five years to become eligible for citizenship, and then finally have access to higher education. In other words, it wouldn't happen and I'd be working in an apple orchard.
Just because someone you know did something doesn't mean it's an option for everyone.
The path to citizenship if you don't have family includes permanent employer sponsorship (they have to prove they need to hire an immigrant for a permanent position, not an H1-B visa) and then a five year waiting period. Or win the green card lottery and then wait five years.
If I was born off of US soil, I would have to wait until I was 18 and SOMEHOW find an employer who would permanently sponsor an uneducated immigrant, and then wait five years to become eligible for citizenship, and then finally have access to higher education. In other words, it wouldn't happen and I'd be working in an apple orchard.
Just because someone you know did something doesn't mean it's an option for everyone.
23
@20 Taxes don't really work that way. You pay into the system, you get to reap the benefits, even if you only pay in for a short period of time. Do H1-B workers only get to use roads for a small percentage of the time? Are their children only allowed to attend the local public school for a few days out of a school year?
Your logic is deeply flawed.
Your logic is deeply flawed.
24
State universities are supported by tax dollars reaped off the backs of their students tax-paying parents.
Um, you realize your argument is that rich parents pay enough taxes, so only their rich kids should have access to education, right? You're saying we should abolish public education altogether.
25
I think that the requirements for foreign students to receive in-state tuition should be just the same as the requirements for out-of-state students. Several years of working and living in Washington isn't a bad price for any non-Washingtonian to pay for the privilege, and I think it should apply across the board.
26
"US foreign policy allows us to bring over to do work where we don't have enough skilled labor. "
We do have enough skilled labor. We don't have enough CHEAP labor. And the argument about skilled labor is to subsidize education (as in free, not reduced) to the people already here. Hiring someone from a third world country to do my job cheaper and depress my future wages is an insult. Subsidizing their education with my taxes to the state is a slap in the face.
We do have enough skilled labor. We don't have enough CHEAP labor. And the argument about skilled labor is to subsidize education (as in free, not reduced) to the people already here. Hiring someone from a third world country to do my job cheaper and depress my future wages is an insult. Subsidizing their education with my taxes to the state is a slap in the face.
27
@22,
You are delusional. By the way, having to pay out-of-state tuition does not equal not having access to education. I should know. I went to college out of state.
You are delusional. By the way, having to pay out-of-state tuition does not equal not having access to education. I should know. I went to college out of state.
28
Since no one else bothered to challenge my sarcastic post @9, I'm going to do so myself.
Here I implied that these foreign workers are not residents or taxpayers. But--it now should be obvious to me--they are. What they are not is citizens. Strictly from a moral standpoint, when it comes to qualifying for Washington state resident tuition, what is more relevant?
A. The fact you are a resident of Washington and pay taxes here.
B. The fact you are not a United States citizen.
I'll be damned. I'm kinda coming down on the side of A.
Here I implied that these foreign workers are not residents or taxpayers. But--it now should be obvious to me--they are. What they are not is citizens. Strictly from a moral standpoint, when it comes to qualifying for Washington state resident tuition, what is more relevant?
A. The fact you are a resident of Washington and pay taxes here.
B. The fact you are not a United States citizen.
I'll be damned. I'm kinda coming down on the side of A.
30
I'm going to protest this by withholding my vote from all the politicians involved in this. Oh, wait. Even after living here for 8 years, I'm still more than 5 years away from being able to vote.
@6 & 21: Note that the rules for residency in Washington are 1 year - there's no "unfairness" here - quite the opposite. From the RCW:
(2) The term "resident student" shall mean:
(a) A financially independent student who has had a domicile in the state of Washington for the period of one year immediately prior to the time of commencement of the first day of the semester or quarter for which the student has registered at any institution and has in fact established a bona fide domicile in this state primarily for purposes other than educational;
Of course, section (3)(b) of this code hasn't been changed by 1487.SL, and that section still seems to be very clear that you have to be a citizen to be a resident student (which makes the new (2)(f) really dumb if it's true). But then, I'm not a lawyer.
@6 & 21: Note that the rules for residency in Washington are 1 year - there's no "unfairness" here - quite the opposite. From the RCW:
(2) The term "resident student" shall mean:
(a) A financially independent student who has had a domicile in the state of Washington for the period of one year immediately prior to the time of commencement of the first day of the semester or quarter for which the student has registered at any institution and has in fact established a bona fide domicile in this state primarily for purposes other than educational;
Of course, section (3)(b) of this code hasn't been changed by 1487.SL, and that section still seems to be very clear that you have to be a citizen to be a resident student (which makes the new (2)(f) really dumb if it's true). But then, I'm not a lawyer.
31
"The problem is that my sister and my brother and their kid(s), born in America, living in Cali, can't move here and get the same deal.
They have to wait three years to become in-state tuition, "
According to what?
"To be classified or reclassified as residents, for tuition and fee purposes, students must establish a bona fide domicile in the state of Washington primarily for purposes other than education for the period of one year immediately prior to classification as residents."
Oh, so you're talking entirely out of your ass. Classy.
They have to wait three years to become in-state tuition, "
According to what?
"To be classified or reclassified as residents, for tuition and fee purposes, students must establish a bona fide domicile in the state of Washington primarily for purposes other than education for the period of one year immediately prior to classification as residents."
Oh, so you're talking entirely out of your ass. Classy.
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