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News & ArtsThursday, June 18, 2009
The Ladies Barbara's Brass Ovaries
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 6:46 PM
This is making the rounds...
Pretty brilliant.
2
I saw a lot of commotion about this on huffpo or something. Some back and forth about how soldiers are trained to use ma'am and sir to superiors vs. Boxer's not in the military, and isn't his superior.
It does sound weird the way he says it, but is the general rule in formal settings (giving testimony, obv.) to address a congressperson by the title 'senator' or 'representative'?
It does sound weird the way he says it, but is the general rule in formal settings (giving testimony, obv.) to address a congressperson by the title 'senator' or 'representative'?
3
I can totally understand him automatically saying "ma'am" for exactly the reason @2 gave. To me, he was trying to be respectful by deferring to her authority, exactly as is done in the military.
Her short request for him to call her senator was fine though.
Just don't call her Liz.
Her short request for him to call her senator was fine though.
Just don't call her Liz.
4
Also, I first read the title as 'Barack's brass ovaries' and thought it was a sexist jab at Obama's lack of 'fierce'.
5
And if I may intrude once more - I checked out some video of Gen. Petraeus testifying before a Pre-presidential Obama, and he definitely calls him 'senator.' every time he addresses Obama. You figure, the military being an institution that prides itself on adherence to protocol, this Gen. Walsh would've been prepped a little better.
7
i don't think it's out of order. she deserves to be called senator just like all the male senators. there are so few female senators - what is it 17? 17 out of one hundred. so she's a bitch because she wants the same respect? whatever. good for her! apparently the only way to get what we deserve (as in equality) in this world is to stand up and demand it - at every turn!!!
11
A brilliant response for when you're being ignored because you're a woman. Justice Ginsburg should try it.
13
Fair enough.
Also, Obama shouldn't be allowed to use the word "fierce" at all. It's a drag queen word, and the drag queens aren't happy, so he can't borrow it.
Also, Obama shouldn't be allowed to use the word "fierce" at all. It's a drag queen word, and the drag queens aren't happy, so he can't borrow it.
14
Exactly. It's exactly how Captain Janeway prefers to be called "Captain" rather than "ma'am" or "sir."
17
That reminds me. All you Slog people need to start calling me "Senator" too. I didn't work as hard as some to get the title but still, I'd appreciate it.
(BTW, I bet every General has used that old "I worked hard for the title" line ten thousand times with their subordinates when he wants to put them off balance.)
(BTW, I bet every General has used that old "I worked hard for the title" line ten thousand times with their subordinates when he wants to put them off balance.)
20
Dan
Slow dad, huh?
"Mam" is standard military courtesy to a ranking female.
you think it's code.
boxer is rude. that's a more reasonable take on how she often treats committee witnesses.
Get your tongue off the doorknob and think about it.
Slow dad, huh?
"Mam" is standard military courtesy to a ranking female.
you think it's code.
boxer is rude. that's a more reasonable take on how she often treats committee witnesses.
Get your tongue off the doorknob and think about it.
21
Boxer it too fucking clueless to understand that "ma'am: shows for more respect than "Senator." The term "senator" is about as worthy as "shit stain."
The fact that Boxer's umbrage is based on a title she "worked so hard for" has more to do with her personal ambition than her sense of service to the public.
Fuck you Babs!
How dare you try and correct a representative of our armed services on a ticky-tack bullshit point of order, when members of those same services are sleeping in dirt and in danger, in the service of justice to those far less fortunate than us all, on this very night.
Argue the merits of any war, at any time, but don't you fucking dare to get pissy with people who have been far more giving, with far more at risk, with far greater sacrifice, than your
super-sized
bitch-faced
fundraiser-luncheon-stuffed
paper-shuffling
bureaucratic
ass!
Boxer it too fucking clueless to understand that "ma'am: shows for more respect than "Senator." The term "senator" is about as worthy as "shit stain."
The fact that Boxer's umbrage is based on a title she "worked so hard for" has more to do with her personal ambition than her sense of service to the public.
Fuck you Babs!
How dare you try and correct a representative of our armed services on a ticky-tack bullshit point of order, when members of those same services are sleeping in dirt and in danger, in the service of justice to those far less fortunate than us all, on this very night.
Argue the merits of any war, at any time, but don't you fucking dare to get pissy with people who have been far more giving, with far more at risk, with far greater sacrifice, than your
super-sized
bitch-faced
fundraiser-luncheon-stuffed
paper-shuffling
bureaucratic
ass!
23
It would be mildly interesting to do a search of Senate committee transcripts to see how often military witnesses call male Senators "Sir" vs. how often they call female Senators "Ma'am."
I'm guessing they rarely if ever call the guys "Sir," in which case Boxer is totally in the right.
I'm guessing they rarely if ever call the guys "Sir," in which case Boxer is totally in the right.
24
SHE'S A DEMOCRAT SO SHE THROUGH THE FQTBLG COMMUNITY UNDER THE BUS IM TAKING A CLUE FROM SAVAGE AND VOTING STRAIGHT REPUBLICAN AT LEAST WE KNOW THEY HATE US ALL YOU OBAMAOLOGISTS CAN GO LIVE WITH SARAH PALIN
26
@ 23 - That's what I was thinking... Well, actually I was thinking that he probably would have said 'Sir' to a penised-senator, in the course of giving testimony.. But who knows, maybe that would have seemed more subservient, to call a man 'Sir', than to call a woman 'Ma'am'? If indeed there are few 'Sirs' in such transcripts, then she was in the right...
I dunno, maybe she just doesn't like the word 'Ma'am'.... I can certainly understand that........ It's late, I'm rambling, good night....
I dunno, maybe she just doesn't like the word 'Ma'am'.... I can certainly understand that........ It's late, I'm rambling, good night....
27
Having worked with politicians before, I feel that Boxer's insistence on being called senator has less to do with demanding respect in the face of sexism (although it may have a little to do with that as well) than with the fact that most politicians insist on being referred to by title. They view themselves as a sort of american aristocracy, and demand respect from their inferiors. For a senator, that's practically everyone.
This holds true even when they are voted out of office. A former senator still prefers to be referred to as "senator," which I think is pretty ridiculous.
This holds true even when they are voted out of office. A former senator still prefers to be referred to as "senator," which I think is pretty ridiculous.
28
@21 and the rest of you naysayers: Just walk into the courtroom of any female Judge and call her ma'am, and see how far that gets you.
31
And why the fuck is this "pretty brilliant"? Military etiquette is to call any woman "ma'am" regardless of title, like "sir". Look up "madam" on wikipedia, you stupid douche.
32
I'm with 20 and 27, if you watch C-SPAN with any regularity you'd know that Babs is far more abrasive than this most of the time. This is nothing more than a power trip on her part, and a pretty tame one at that.
33
17 seconds of video isn't enough for me to commend or condemn Senator Boxer's brass. Give me a call when she pushes through single-payer health care or builds outs a national rail infrastructure or gets us out of Iraq.
35
Having served in the military, I can say that it was probably not an intentional breech of etiquette. In the Army, you address female officers as Ma'am, males as sir, or use their rank before their name. I also don't see anything wrong with the senator correcting the the general. It's not like she freaked out over it. If she prefers being called senator, what's the big deal?
37
Ditto Zok at #21!
What's the difference between Senator Boxer and the Panama Canal?
The Panama Canal is a lazy ditch.
What's the difference between Senator Boxer and the Panama Canal?
The Panama Canal is a lazy ditch.
38
@14 Umm... Isn't Janeway now an Admiral? I mean the Star Trek time line is now a very slippery thing, indeed, but when last left off...
40
You don't have to specify "ovaries."
Women have balls too. We just keep them inside where any sane person would. My doctor assures me they -are- bigger then men's.
Women have balls too. We just keep them inside where any sane person would. My doctor assures me they -are- bigger then men's.
43
@21
Right on! Couldn't have said it any better. It's Barbara Boxer's fault for being ignorant about how military officials show respect. Her assumption (born out of ignorance) was that he was condescending to her because she was a female when in fact it was the opposite.
You were fucking WRONG you pushy, power-hungry, uninformed bitch! She made a complete ass of herself.
Right on! Couldn't have said it any better. It's Barbara Boxer's fault for being ignorant about how military officials show respect. Her assumption (born out of ignorance) was that he was condescending to her because she was a female when in fact it was the opposite.
You were fucking WRONG you pushy, power-hungry, uninformed bitch! She made a complete ass of herself.
44
@21
Right on! Couldn't have said it any better. It's Barbara Boxer's fault for being ignorant about how military officials show respect. Her assumption (born out of ignorance) was that he was condescending to her because she was a female when in fact it was the opposite.
You were fucking WRONG you pushy, power-hungry, uninformed bitch! She made a complete ass of herself.
Right on! Couldn't have said it any better. It's Barbara Boxer's fault for being ignorant about how military officials show respect. Her assumption (born out of ignorance) was that he was condescending to her because she was a female when in fact it was the opposite.
You were fucking WRONG you pushy, power-hungry, uninformed bitch! She made a complete ass of herself.
45
"Pretty brilliant."
maybe.
If you're a Democratic Party Ass Kisser.
If you're Obama's Credulous Bitch.
If you are an America Hating military disrespecting liberal sack of shit.
maybe.
If you're a Democratic Party Ass Kisser.
If you're Obama's Credulous Bitch.
If you are an America Hating military disrespecting liberal sack of shit.
46
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
We need universal health care ...
Hard to stay focused, isn't it ....
We need universal health care ...
Hard to stay focused, isn't it ....
47
Come on @45. Surely a GENERAL should be aware of the correct etiquette. Are you seriously saying that when he gets into the Senate, he's so freaked out that he forgets all that and has to revert to his basic military training? Give me a break.
Yes, it's how those in the military show respect (god help me, they do it to me on tech support calls). And no, it's not appropriate for the senate, regardless of how much of a pain Boxer is. And yes, a general who's going to the Senate should bloody well know that.
Yes, it's how those in the military show respect (god help me, they do it to me on tech support calls). And no, it's not appropriate for the senate, regardless of how much of a pain Boxer is. And yes, a general who's going to the Senate should bloody well know that.
48
Wow, relax. I was in the Navy for a looooooog time. Ma'am is used as a form of protocol. Nothing more nothing less. No one can know whether he has respect for her or not based on that usage. The term respects the position, not the person. This says much more about her. Maybe Ma'am is her safe word?
49
I don't see why this is an issue. He referred to her by a term she didn't care for, she told him what she expected to be called. This is exactly how "Liz" should have handled it, no?
50
And by "worked too hard for this" the senator means she started a whisper campaign that accused her opponent of spiking with water with Hep C.
51
Dan pitches a pissy shit fit every time Obama looks sideways, makes since that he would like Boxers little tantrum also...
53
"Ma'am" is a form of military protocol. "Senator" is civic protocol.
I don't see a huge problem. She asked the general to use a term of address appropriate to the setting -- the Senate. Just because something's military doesn't mean it's suitable everywhere. I doubt she would have raised the issue in a less formal, less official setting.
I don't see a huge problem. She asked the general to use a term of address appropriate to the setting -- the Senate. Just because something's military doesn't mean it's suitable everywhere. I doubt she would have raised the issue in a less formal, less official setting.
54
@41
do you mean that women are even MORE
impulsive
prone to violence
demanding of instant action
wanting to get to the bottom line, stop boring us with the lengthy linear description of every detail
excited by risk
need to have hierarchies
like to "do stuff" with buddies instead of "talking and sharing"
and love war
then men?
Such that if women had been in charge the last 40000000 years we'd of had EVEN MORE tribal violaence national violence genocide and domestic violence?
Wow, I'm going to have to go tell this to all my feminist friends. Women are JUST LIKE MEN ONLY MORE SO.
Got it.
a Senator from California (550,000 - 40000000). And the whole point of the Senate is to block the hasty intemperate action of the House.
so instead of microanalyzing 15 words in a meaningless exchange why dont' we just eliminate the entire senate?
We'd be done with the need for 60 votes which is the principal thing preventing us from enacting progressive legislation in every area. It's fundamentally undemocratic as is the Senate itself, and there's no other advanced nation that has such a crusty, nonrepresentative, conservatizing legislative chamber.
Off with your heads, Sirs and Madames!
do you mean that women are even MORE
impulsive
prone to violence
demanding of instant action
wanting to get to the bottom line, stop boring us with the lengthy linear description of every detail
excited by risk
need to have hierarchies
like to "do stuff" with buddies instead of "talking and sharing"
and love war
then men?
Such that if women had been in charge the last 40000000 years we'd of had EVEN MORE tribal violaence national violence genocide and domestic violence?
Wow, I'm going to have to go tell this to all my feminist friends. Women are JUST LIKE MEN ONLY MORE SO.
Got it.
a Senator from California (550,000 - 40000000). And the whole point of the Senate is to block the hasty intemperate action of the House.
so instead of microanalyzing 15 words in a meaningless exchange why dont' we just eliminate the entire senate?
We'd be done with the need for 60 votes which is the principal thing preventing us from enacting progressive legislation in every area. It's fundamentally undemocratic as is the Senate itself, and there's no other advanced nation that has such a crusty, nonrepresentative, conservatizing legislative chamber.
Off with your heads, Sirs and Madames!
55
she should be addressed the way she wants to be. it was the senate, therefore, use senate protocol.
personally, my opinion of the word "ma'am?" OUTSIDE the military, in the everyday world, it has a somewhat different connotation. i would not want to be called ma'am outside of the military. non-military folks don't muster up as much respect for the word, ESPECIALLY in comparison to SIR.
personally, my opinion of the word "ma'am?" OUTSIDE the military, in the everyday world, it has a somewhat different connotation. i would not want to be called ma'am outside of the military. non-military folks don't muster up as much respect for the word, ESPECIALLY in comparison to SIR.
56
Women just don't like ma'am because it makes them feel old and aware of their dithering sexual power over others
57
I had an amazing, sweet guy my age working with me, who had served extensively in the Army and he could never break calling me ma'am. I think it is part of what they are ingrained with while serving.
58
As someone who was raised to say ma'am as a sign of respect, I thought she just came off as sounding bitchy for no reason to someone who was nothing but polite.
59
Eh, he called her ma'am, she wanted to be called Senator. Like @49 said, this is just like the "Liz" thing, only Boxer didn't freak out about it.
60
The General comes off better than the Senator, if the point is to compare their performances. (I am not sure what the point of this intriguing little blog-perfect item is, actually, which perhaps is the source of its perfection).
As many others have pointed out, his "ma'aming" was clearly intended respectfully (it's good enough for the Queen of England, after all, although I don't know if that is true for all situations), and he also immediately honored her request that he call her "Senator", without seeming knocked off stride at all).
She comes off as more concerned about matters dignitary than about whatever substantive matters of State were at hand. She doesn't seem particularly aggressive about it, nor to be trying tactically to get him off-balance.
"Brass ovaries" seems a little strong. "Unfocused ADHD sufferer" seems more like it.
As many others have pointed out, his "ma'aming" was clearly intended respectfully (it's good enough for the Queen of England, after all, although I don't know if that is true for all situations), and he also immediately honored her request that he call her "Senator", without seeming knocked off stride at all).
She comes off as more concerned about matters dignitary than about whatever substantive matters of State were at hand. She doesn't seem particularly aggressive about it, nor to be trying tactically to get him off-balance.
"Brass ovaries" seems a little strong. "Unfocused ADHD sufferer" seems more like it.
61
The late Lord Thomson, Canada's richest man, was once referred to as "Mr. Thomson". He replied: "Madam, I paid enough for this title you might as well use it."
62
WTF? In this presumably (not actually) egalitarian republic, the whole idea of these sorts of labels should be nauseating to everyone, especially liberals (which, I am). It's like the other researchers I work with that freak out when someone doesn't refer to them as "Dr." Luckily, these status snobs seem to be mostly older, so maybe it's a generational thing.
63
Conservatives getting their panties in a wad over this need to be shown Cheney's "Go fuck yourself" to Sen. Leahy from a few years back.
64
From someone who while in the military testified before congress, this is how it works:
- "Sir" or "Ma'am" is a general term of respect to be used for anyone of a higher rank without any prejudice. Sir or Ma'am trumps all other terms of reference.
- If you have been formally introduced, it is appropriate to refer to a person as "Senator Smith" or "Admiral Jones". Using that form of address before an introduction, and not while trying to discriminate among the same (several Admirals standing together, and you need to get the attention of Admiral Jones), is considered unduly familiar and impolite. Exceptions include the five basic responses (yes sir, no ma'am, aye'aye sir, I will find out ma'am, -direct answer to the question- ma'am) after you have been introduced.
- calling someone by rank alone is equivalent to calling someone an asshole. It means you are smart enough to recognize the person's rank, but unwilling to recognize the person as respectable. "Yes Captain" rather than "Yes sir" is a tacit implication that "I recognize that you outrank me, but you do not deserve to be called sir or ma'am, because that implies that I have some modicum of respect for you". The exception is calling the commanding officer of your ship "captain" (or the commanding officer of your squadron "commodore"), since that is not just a rank but a specific position.
I don't know what happened before this interaction, but I can infer that the General was only trying to be respectful.
-LT L
- "Sir" or "Ma'am" is a general term of respect to be used for anyone of a higher rank without any prejudice. Sir or Ma'am trumps all other terms of reference.
- If you have been formally introduced, it is appropriate to refer to a person as "Senator Smith" or "Admiral Jones". Using that form of address before an introduction, and not while trying to discriminate among the same (several Admirals standing together, and you need to get the attention of Admiral Jones), is considered unduly familiar and impolite. Exceptions include the five basic responses (yes sir, no ma'am, aye'aye sir, I will find out ma'am, -direct answer to the question- ma'am) after you have been introduced.
- calling someone by rank alone is equivalent to calling someone an asshole. It means you are smart enough to recognize the person's rank, but unwilling to recognize the person as respectable. "Yes Captain" rather than "Yes sir" is a tacit implication that "I recognize that you outrank me, but you do not deserve to be called sir or ma'am, because that implies that I have some modicum of respect for you". The exception is calling the commanding officer of your ship "captain" (or the commanding officer of your squadron "commodore"), since that is not just a rank but a specific position.
I don't know what happened before this interaction, but I can infer that the General was only trying to be respectful.
-LT L
65
The right way to have dealt with this is for Senator Ovary to quietly get an aide to clue in the General as to her preferred addressing style. This in-your-face stuff is stupid and counterproductive. And is grist for the neocon hypocrite mill. I'm a screaming lefty, and found her snotty and offensive. Not 'bold'.
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