Tuesday, June 16, 2009
City White Lights
Posted by Dominic Holden on Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 6:45 PM
The orange cast on many Seattle streets at night will shift to a white glow over the next six years as the city replaces streetlamps with new LED fixtures. Mayor Greg Nickels announced a plan yesterday to use federal stimulus funds to begin replacing 40,000 of the high-pressure-sodium bulbs with the light-emitting diodes to save money and energy.
“They would save about nine million kilowatt hours and about $408,000 a year,” says Seattle City Light spokesman Scott Thomsen. The power saved would be roughly equivalent to 750 single-family houses, which, he says, use about 12,000 kilowatt hours a year.
Funding to kick start the program comes from a $6.1 million stimulus grant to reduce energy use, including weatherizing buildings and installing energy-efficient products. Of that money, $1 million will go toward the streetlamp program next year, assuming the Department of Energy approves the expenditure this summer. In all, the new streetlamps will cost about $20 million.
The city is already testing several different brands of LEDs in several blocks of the Capitol Hill neighborhood. “People describe it as a little brighter, a little whiter,” says Mike Mann, director for the city’s office of sustainability.
Seattle City Light maintains approximately 84,000 street lights, including 20,000 outside the city limits.
Photo via alykat on Flickr.
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1
Capitol Hill is whiter, but it's not the streetlamps. It's the people who bought all those new condominiums.
2
The ones they've changed on the north end of Broadway (or is it the south end of 10th?) look HORRIBLE. They're BLUE/white, and because they're brighter, it actually makes it harder to see, since they're spots of super intense white light that kill your eyeballs if you happen to look at them while driving. Not a good thing. They make that whole block look like an aisle at Target. I weep for the future...
3
Yeah, I'm all for energy-efficiency, but the design of these new lights is terrible. They're not well-shielded from the sides, so there's all this light bleeding out the sides - it's very distracting. And yeah, the white light looks like a grocery store aisle.
5
@2, agreed. That's been my complain. Counter arguments have stated they look fine or that it's nice to have brighter lighting while driving/walking at night. But I'm telling you folks, when every city street is lit up like daylight, people will be complaining in en masse. I don't think some people are really stopping to visualize what it will look like. The energy and money savings are great, but no green solution is worth jabbing everyone's eyeballs with pitchforks of light.
6
"a little brighter, a little whiter" ??! they make the streets look straight out of a narc film. the yellow light at night is one of my most favorite things about seattle, it makes everything a little dreamier. look at that photo! it's beautiful! i wish this wasn't happening. there has to be another way.
7
Um, "money savings"? It'll take fifty years to save back the cost of the bulbs, not to mention the labor to change them all. They won't last fifty years. This is a money sinkhole.
8
$20 million to save $408,000 per year? What is that...a 50 year payback for the money spent?
Certainly another sterling example of the City of Seattle's idea of a satisfactory cost to benefit ratio?
Perhaps the mayor and city council should spend $500,000 on a consultant study......
Certainly another sterling example of the City of Seattle's idea of a satisfactory cost to benefit ratio?
Perhaps the mayor and city council should spend $500,000 on a consultant study......
9
Fnarf beat me to it. This town just loves to piss money away.
And this is going to stimulate the economy how?
And this is going to stimulate the economy how?
10
Guys, your math does not take into consideration inflation, rising energy rates, and decreases in bulb costs in the future. Also, it would be great if traffic lights were the only lights that glowed yellow in the city streets. Right now, when the traffic light turns yellow in the distance, it frequently disappears into the array of streetlights.
11
@7,8,9 - the 408k savings is just power usage right? How much do they save by not having to replace the bulbs as often. The sodium bulbs only last a few years, right?
I just don't understand why we need all new streetlamps just to use a different bulb, isn't there an LED bulb that will work in the old lamp poles.
I just don't understand why we need all new streetlamps just to use a different bulb, isn't there an LED bulb that will work in the old lamp poles.
13
$20 million to save $408,000 per year? What is that...a 50 year payback for the money spent?
I'm sure that $408,000 will increase every year, and reduce citizens' energy costs due to decreased demand and, um... haven't you been paying attention to the actual costs of energy use (wars, climate change, habitat destruction)? Have we talked about anything ELSE the past 10 years?
The ones they've changed on the north end of Broadway (or is it the south end of 10th?) look HORRIBLE. [...] They make that whole block look like an aisle at Target.
I thought they already turned that block into an aisle at Target?
14
Mayor Nickels, I know you check out Slog. Although I appreciate the interest in energy efficiency, etc. please take into consideration the problem of light pollution.
http://www.njaa.org/light.html is one good resource to perhaps refine your ideas when spending the stimulus funds.
http://www.njaa.org/light.html is one good resource to perhaps refine your ideas when spending the stimulus funds.
15
@13. Lizzie, that $408,000 is very likely rather lite when considering we're in an economic recession, and City Light's income from power sales perhaps will be less than forecasted.
Certainly, be our guest if you'd like to quantify those additional costs you pointed out in your post that will be realized by NOT spending $21 mil on LED street lights.
However, lets take it a step farther. Wouldn't that $21 million be better spent supporting students and teachers in public schools, colleges and universities? Can you deny the cost-benefit ratio would far outstrip wasting $21 million of LED technology that will be utterly outdated in three to four years?
Certainly, be our guest if you'd like to quantify those additional costs you pointed out in your post that will be realized by NOT spending $21 mil on LED street lights.
However, lets take it a step farther. Wouldn't that $21 million be better spent supporting students and teachers in public schools, colleges and universities? Can you deny the cost-benefit ratio would far outstrip wasting $21 million of LED technology that will be utterly outdated in three to four years?
16
These new lights suck. The experimental ones are in front of my house. I don't care how much energy they save -- it's a huge step backwards. Maybe gas lights would be better.
17
Why does the City only ever implement "Cost Savings" when they get outside funding? Would it kill them to save money without being bribed to do so?
18
Oh calm down, everyone - The lamps will be replaced over a four to six year period, which is the usual cycle for streetlight replacement. These new bulbs fit in existing fixtures, so there's no need to fear the specter of outdated technology. Doing it on a grant like this means you don't have to worry about a rate increase to do it. (although we are long overdue for a rate increase)
And here's an interesting tidbit about the trial areas, all of which were on Capitol Hill: They switched out the streetlights in these areas, and there were few complaints (even though letters had been sent out alerting people of the switch). But in one of the trial areas, they switched them back, and people screamed bloody murder. So it just goes to show that this is 99% perception/Capitol Hill self-induced drama.
Streetlights are one of the most touchy issues at any utility - 85% the people think City Light hasn't put out enough, and the rest thinks there's way too many of them. In any event, the brightness and number of lights on streets is determined by both S-DOT and the Feds, not City Light. And LEDs are what every utility, big or small, is going to because it's cheaper to operate, so you might as well get used to it.
And here's an interesting tidbit about the trial areas, all of which were on Capitol Hill: They switched out the streetlights in these areas, and there were few complaints (even though letters had been sent out alerting people of the switch). But in one of the trial areas, they switched them back, and people screamed bloody murder. So it just goes to show that this is 99% perception/Capitol Hill self-induced drama.
Streetlights are one of the most touchy issues at any utility - 85% the people think City Light hasn't put out enough, and the rest thinks there's way too many of them. In any event, the brightness and number of lights on streets is determined by both S-DOT and the Feds, not City Light. And LEDs are what every utility, big or small, is going to because it's cheaper to operate, so you might as well get used to it.
20
What happened to all the Earth Day environmentalists who want to reduce greenhouse gases? An LED uses less electricity and therefore power stations have to burn less fuel, and thus less CO2 is released into the atmosphere. But, as I suspect, when it comes to spending the necessary funds, most of you environmentally conscious Global Warmers won't pony up the cash. Honestly, I expect hypocrisy like that from Republicans - not the hippy liberals on SLOG!
21
This really sucks. They're stealing our night skies from us. For those of us who walk, run or bike at night it's really miserable that you have to shield your eyes now. These new lights are a pain. And they recently put one in front of my balcony so that the tree below is lit up like an amusement park prop. It totally interferes with my sunsets now. Aarrrrgh! Such a lack of foresight or sense of propriety. The yellow light before was more than adequate and gave off a friendly glow in the evening.
I contacted City Light and spoke with Jeffrey Gilfoy who said to email complaints to him via jeffrey.gilfoy@seattle.gov and he would pass it along. Also, from the Capitol Hill Blog (3 months ago) a comment from Vicki Marsten read thusly:
Dear Mike,
Thank you for your comment. Please send notify me directly which lights are intrusive to you. This is a pilot and the use of LED's is just beginning to emerge in Seattle and we need all the feedback we can about how the whiteness of the light is perceived.
Thank you, Vicki Marsten
Seattle City Light
Comment by Vicki Marsten, Seattle City Light
*****************************************
Please send them your feedback before the whole city is awash in brilliant, harsh white light. Maybe it's not too late. :(
I contacted City Light and spoke with Jeffrey Gilfoy who said to email complaints to him via jeffrey.gilfoy@seattle.gov and he would pass it along. Also, from the Capitol Hill Blog (3 months ago) a comment from Vicki Marsten read thusly:
Dear Mike,
Thank you for your comment. Please send notify me directly which lights are intrusive to you. This is a pilot and the use of LED's is just beginning to emerge in Seattle and we need all the feedback we can about how the whiteness of the light is perceived.
Thank you, Vicki Marsten
Seattle City Light
Comment by Vicki Marsten, Seattle City Light
*****************************************
Please send them your feedback before the whole city is awash in brilliant, harsh white light. Maybe it's not too late. :(
22
i ride my bike past some of the new lights on my way to work. they switched them back when it was still dark when I did so, so I rode through them five times a week for a month or so.
Not so bad. Shielding your eyes? What? Do you ride around staring at streetlights? I experienced not one bit of discomfort. Once all the lights are LED we probably won't even notice, since so much of our perception is based on context.
For instance, are they really BLUE!? Or do they just LOOK blue next to the incredibly orange sodium lights?
That said, I feel like they shouldn't spend twenty million on streetlamps when they're laying off hundreds of teachers.
Not so bad. Shielding your eyes? What? Do you ride around staring at streetlights? I experienced not one bit of discomfort. Once all the lights are LED we probably won't even notice, since so much of our perception is based on context.
For instance, are they really BLUE!? Or do they just LOOK blue next to the incredibly orange sodium lights?
That said, I feel like they shouldn't spend twenty million on streetlamps when they're laying off hundreds of teachers.
23
For the record, the lights were installed without any advance notice to neighbors. Only after people complained did the city send out information. The city's m.o. was apparently to see if the lights were distracting enough to catalyze complaints.
24
Human circadian entrainment from light happens almost entirely due to light around 470nm or daytime-sky-blue... so there's good reason to believe blue-deficient lights like sodium lamps are better suited for nighttime lighting in public areas unless we're all getting prepped for permanent night shifts.
26
The stats I've looked at say that LED lights (50 lumens/W) are about the same efficiency as High Pressure Sodium (61 lumens/W) - what Seattle uses in its streetlights. HPS is still more efficient, but that is changing quickly. Study here.
They use the "daylight" or "cool" white bulbs because everyone else does. I hate. At night, the human eye likes warmer light - it's more like fire light. That's why "cool white" fluorescent lights look so damn tacky in WallMart at night. Ever walk in to a grocery store late at night and your body starts to feel like it's waking up? It feels gross, but, at least for me, I don't get that feeling under incandescent lights, see @24. The daylight bulbs look a bit like moonlight, I suppose, but less cheery.
Warm white LEDs are on the way but remain less efficient than cool white LEDs, because that's where the research money is focused.
The LED streetlights stay cooler, are less susceptible to damage, less susceptible to darkening of the reflector, attract fewer bugs (less UV), last longer (big savings), and have a higher color rendering index (distinguish colors better). And they are politically in vogue and there is stimulus money available for them, so there isn't much we can do. So push for warm white!
They use the "daylight" or "cool" white bulbs because everyone else does. I hate. At night, the human eye likes warmer light - it's more like fire light. That's why "cool white" fluorescent lights look so damn tacky in WallMart at night. Ever walk in to a grocery store late at night and your body starts to feel like it's waking up? It feels gross, but, at least for me, I don't get that feeling under incandescent lights, see @24. The daylight bulbs look a bit like moonlight, I suppose, but less cheery.
Warm white LEDs are on the way but remain less efficient than cool white LEDs, because that's where the research money is focused.
The LED streetlights stay cooler, are less susceptible to damage, less susceptible to darkening of the reflector, attract fewer bugs (less UV), last longer (big savings), and have a higher color rendering index (distinguish colors better). And they are politically in vogue and there is stimulus money available for them, so there isn't much we can do. So push for warm white!
28
Complaining about streetlights!?!?! Keep Seattle's old orange glow!!!!! They are blinding! WOW!
Reminds me of when my apartment building switched to flourescents in the hallways. Everybody complained how white and bright it was, a few weeks later nobody cared. And I guarantee if we were to switch back to the dim, orangy hue of old there would be real outrage.
Reminds me of when my apartment building switched to flourescents in the hallways. Everybody complained how white and bright it was, a few weeks later nobody cared. And I guarantee if we were to switch back to the dim, orangy hue of old there would be real outrage.
29
Okay, so yes, these lights actually do create visibility problems. They may be brighter, and they may have better color definition, but because the light coming from these LEDs is so highly directional, you end up with spots on your eyes and reduced night vision capabilities. What this means is that they're distracting when you're under them, and you see less well when you go somewhere else.
I think we can all agree that using less energy in the long run is a priority (and yes, sometimes it costs more money to save the world), but somebody needs to put some shades on them thangs.
I think we can all agree that using less energy in the long run is a priority (and yes, sometimes it costs more money to save the world), but somebody needs to put some shades on them thangs.
30
Okay, so yes, these lights actually do create visibility problems. They may be brighter, and they may have better color definition, but because the light coming from these LEDs is so highly directional, you end up with spots on your eyes and reduced night vision capabilities. What this means is that they're distracting when you're under them, and you see less well when you go somewhere else.
I think we can all agree that using less energy in the long run is a priority (and yes, sometimes it costs more money to save the world), but somebody needs to put some shades on them thangs.
I think we can all agree that using less energy in the long run is a priority (and yes, sometimes it costs more money to save the world), but somebody needs to put some shades on them thangs.
31
All I can think of with these new LED lights are all the people when I was younger who complained about the vapid, soulless pallor of fluorescent lights and how much warmer and more inviting halogen lighting was. I wonder what they think of this movement, because LEDs are basically just a brighter version of fluorescents.
32
This is amazing.
Too bad Greg showed up 5th in the 43rd endorsements last night, with similar results in other LDs in Seattle.
Too bad Greg showed up 5th in the 43rd endorsements last night, with similar results in other LDs in Seattle.
33
@7 - actually, LED lights have a lifespan on average of 70 to 100 years.
Now, if located next to a high vibration area, it might be shorter. But not much. It's not like incandescents which use a filament.
Now, if located next to a high vibration area, it might be shorter. But not much. It's not like incandescents which use a filament.
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