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News & ArtsTuesday, June 9, 2009
City Bagging
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 6:15 AM
Ahem:
Single-use plastic bags, a staple of American life, have got to go, the United Nations' top environmental official said Monday.Although recycling bags is on the rise in the United States, an estimated 90 billion thin bags a year, most used to handle produce and groceries, go unrecycled. They were the second most common form of litter after cigarette butts at the 2008 International Coastal Cleanup Day sponsored by the Ocean Conservancy, a marine environmental group.
"Single use plastic bags which choke marine life, should be banned or phased out rapidly everywhere. There is simply zero justification for manufacturing them anymore, anywhere," said Achim Steiner, executive director of the U.N. Environment Programme.
2
Ahh the UN -- home of the grandiose statement with no action. Their official motto should be all hat, no cattle....
3
I have to disagree with this one point.
"There is simply zero justification for manufacturing them anymore, anywhere"
If nothing else. It's really hard to pick up dog poop with your average paper grocery bag.
"There is simply zero justification for manufacturing them anymore, anywhere"
If nothing else. It's really hard to pick up dog poop with your average paper grocery bag.
4
But then you read things like this, from very lazy people, and it shows how impossible it could be... http://www.inshaw.com/blog/2009/06/green…
6
Then you read this:
most used to handle produce
and realize how fucked up the current incoming law is.
...
Oh, and mind you, this is the U.N. When was the last time they were even relevant? 1983? They have done so much to help support genocide and other militant dictators that its not even funny,
most used to handle produce
and realize how fucked up the current incoming law is.
...
Oh, and mind you, this is the U.N. When was the last time they were even relevant? 1983? They have done so much to help support genocide and other militant dictators that its not even funny,
7
Plastic shopping bags have many uses actually. I live in South America right now and they don't even sell trash bags in the stores here. Everybody just uses supermarket plastic bags for this purpose.
Sweeping blanket statements like: "There is simply zero justification for manufacturing them anymore, anywhere" are just dumb.
Sweeping blanket statements like: "There is simply zero justification for manufacturing them anymore, anywhere" are just dumb.
8
If the City Council *really* wanted to get rid of plastic bags, they should have had the stones to just ban them -- and not only in grocery stores.
But no. They had to go the punitive nanny-state route, so that stupid fucking credulous hacks like Dan Savage could be public scolds.
Now this dumb-ass thing will be overturned, and if there is any justice, the Council members who voted for it should be out on their asses.
Because, you see, they didn't have the spine to take on the big box stores, who are the real culprits, and expected Joe and Jane shopper to do the heavy lifting.
We're not all Green Taliban mullahs, though, and people aren't buying it. The way to ban these things is to fucking BAN them, and no more of this half-assed shit.
But no. They had to go the punitive nanny-state route, so that stupid fucking credulous hacks like Dan Savage could be public scolds.
Now this dumb-ass thing will be overturned, and if there is any justice, the Council members who voted for it should be out on their asses.
Because, you see, they didn't have the spine to take on the big box stores, who are the real culprits, and expected Joe and Jane shopper to do the heavy lifting.
We're not all Green Taliban mullahs, though, and people aren't buying it. The way to ban these things is to fucking BAN them, and no more of this half-assed shit.
10
But the answer is not a 'plastic bag tax'. We need to provide incentives to grocery stores to provide alternatives.
I currently live in an area that has a plastic bag tax of sorts. While it's true that most people bring their own bags now, there is the rare occasion that you need plastic bags (either you bought too much to fit in your bag, forgot your bag, whatever) and having to pay is annoying - even if it's a couple cents.
Then there are the people who think "well, it's just a couple cents" and will just keep buying bags and using it as another reason to hate liberals.
I currently live in an area that has a plastic bag tax of sorts. While it's true that most people bring their own bags now, there is the rare occasion that you need plastic bags (either you bought too much to fit in your bag, forgot your bag, whatever) and having to pay is annoying - even if it's a couple cents.
Then there are the people who think "well, it's just a couple cents" and will just keep buying bags and using it as another reason to hate liberals.
11
...And who's to determine what's "single-use" and what's not? Many of us use the same plastic bags several times for several different purposes. Idiots. People just need to be smart.
12
Yeah, here in Japan the only source for trash bags is little plastic bags we get in stores, so unless someone wants to replace all those bags with something else, my garbage is going to start piling up in the kitchen.
13
Ummmmm - what would be wrong with using cloth bags to pack your purchases (and washing them yourself)? Plastic bags do harm the environment: google "plastic in oceans" and read some of the results . And with peak oil happening soon (if we're not at peak oil already) it would make sense to use the oil that we make plastic bags from for more useful things - like public transit. And yes, I use cloth bags.
Here are some links starting with a place to buy reusable bags.
www.ecobags.com.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200… Quote from this site: The frustrating, yet hopeful aspect is that humans can easily begin addressing the solution, without major lifestyle changes, says Dr. James. It's as simple as reducing packaging and moving towards alternative, biodegradable materials and recycling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacif…
Besides, someone could make reusable cloth bags with a logo supporting gay marriage!
Here are some links starting with a place to buy reusable bags.
www.ecobags.com.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200… Quote from this site: The frustrating, yet hopeful aspect is that humans can easily begin addressing the solution, without major lifestyle changes, says Dr. James. It's as simple as reducing packaging and moving towards alternative, biodegradable materials and recycling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacif…
Besides, someone could make reusable cloth bags with a logo supporting gay marriage!
14
I am dumbfounded daily, watching people buy one thing, and have the cashier bag it. I take a shopping bag with me everywhere. I've taught my daughter to say "Saving the Earth, one bag at a time."
And I don't go for that crap about "Oh that's okay if you have your car..." but I don't drive, so I'm always carrying everything home. Not taking a bag isn't my only green act, and let me tell you, living in Alberta and choosing not to drive is damn near treason. And not pleasant in a city with possibly the WORST public transit system in the world.
The probem is the five cent dealie, or the 25 cent dealie. Five cents isn't going to do it. people aren't going to trade convenience, or comfort zones for mere pennies. My favourite clothing store give two dollars off your purchase if you don't take a bag. And so even though they don't get advetising off of me carrying their bags around, you can be sure I told all my friends about the discount.
Let's face it, North Americans are all about what's in it for me. And apparently breathable air and potable water aren't enough. Make the bags harder to get, or make it worth their while not to take them.
And I don't go for that crap about "Oh that's okay if you have your car..." but I don't drive, so I'm always carrying everything home. Not taking a bag isn't my only green act, and let me tell you, living in Alberta and choosing not to drive is damn near treason. And not pleasant in a city with possibly the WORST public transit system in the world.
The probem is the five cent dealie, or the 25 cent dealie. Five cents isn't going to do it. people aren't going to trade convenience, or comfort zones for mere pennies. My favourite clothing store give two dollars off your purchase if you don't take a bag. And so even though they don't get advetising off of me carrying their bags around, you can be sure I told all my friends about the discount.
Let's face it, North Americans are all about what's in it for me. And apparently breathable air and potable water aren't enough. Make the bags harder to get, or make it worth their while not to take them.
15
In Berlin, they look at you odd when you show up at the supermarket without bags, and then make you buy the bags you need (which, PS, are pretty cheap). It's a pretty subtle cultural shift that is not a big deal. Sadly if we switched over the process would/will cause infinite whining until everyone realized they don't actually care.
Washington might actually be the epicenter of this. I've sort of decided that Washington politics is basically the politics of whining.
Washington might actually be the epicenter of this. I've sort of decided that Washington politics is basically the politics of whining.
16
@3 Yes, this is pretty much the only reason I still try to get those plastic bags now and then...a ready supply of poop bags to clean up after my dog. There's simply no reusable alternative for that: the city requires that it be disposed of in a plastic bag, and I've always heard that it's dangerous to put it into compost. So I'm stuck with getting some plastic bags at the store.
17
Fine plan for the developed world, but for lesser developed places with poorer people? I don't think so. Not everybody has a washing machine to wash their cloth shopping bag. And cloth shopping bags cost something, whereas in most places plastic bags are free to customers. Plus, plastic bags have many uses -- trash cans, dog shit cleaner-uppers, etc. and sometimes they're the only trash bags available to people.
Blanket statements like this about the WORLD by a rich U.N. official in the developed part are totally ignorant. Does that guy have any clue how most of the world lives???
Blanket statements like this about the WORLD by a rich U.N. official in the developed part are totally ignorant. Does that guy have any clue how most of the world lives???
18
@14 Well LA DI DA!!! Look out everyone, Mr. Bus-Riding-Cloth-Bag-Using-Canadian is here to tell us all how badly we've sinned by making us feel bad for that bottle of water we bought last week.
Please tell me, do you have friends or have you driven them all away with your colosal pretentia?
Please tell me, do you have friends or have you driven them all away with your colosal pretentia?
19
Think twice about 'green' transport, say scientists
"You worry a lot about the environment and do everything you can to reduce your carbon footprint -- the emissions of greenhouse gases that drive dangerous climate change.
So you always prefer to take the train or the bus rather than a plane, and avoid using a car whenever you can, faithful to the belief that this inflicts less harm to the planet.
Well, there could be a nasty surprise in store for you, for taking public transport may not be as green as you automatically think, says a new US study. "
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=…
20
I for one am glad to see the U.N take this problem on, horrendous man made disasters like the Garbage Patch in the Pacific need to be tackled right now and reducing the production and usage of plastic bags is a good start. Their timing is great cause thank God there is an administration now in the white house that's more receptive to working with them on global environmental issues.
21
You either have to find an environmentally safe material, pay a fee for returning them like bottle refunds or ban them outright. We are stressing sea life in many and disturbing ways. If we can't reverse things of this nature, what can we change? The real change must come with each person individually.
22
You don't have to ban them, just ban the giving away of them. Aldi's has charging for bags for years, and you don't see people using single-use bags at Aldi's much at all. Its not a big deal.
23
3
I have a similar use.
I cut two leg holes in the bottom then cinch the bag up over my ass.
It is a nice backup to my Depends.
I have a similar use.
I cut two leg holes in the bottom then cinch the bag up over my ass.
It is a nice backup to my Depends.
24
Jesus Christ, Mary, Joseph, and ALL the blessed saints! And I wasn't even raised Catholic! I think Loveschild is fundamentally correct - on this one issue . (I'm not trying to be offensive, LC - I'm just so astonished at finding something we agree on.)
BTW, page 147 of George Monbiot's book Heat lists CO2 emissions per mode of transport per EACH passenger:
car 36.6 kg
train 5.2 kg
coach 4.3 kg
I recommend reading his book as he isn't funded by Big Oil and he presents a thoughtful analysis of both environmental and climate change denier's dogma. Check out his blog as well. .. http://www.monbiot.com/
BTW, page 147 of George Monbiot's book Heat lists CO2 emissions per mode of transport per EACH passenger:
car 36.6 kg
train 5.2 kg
coach 4.3 kg
I recommend reading his book as he isn't funded by Big Oil and he presents a thoughtful analysis of both environmental and climate change denier's dogma. Check out his blog as well. .. http://www.monbiot.com/
25
@16 - You can reuse other bags to handle your poop needs without intentionally acquiring new grocery bags at the store. I've got a big dog that produces mountains of poop that I can easily handle with the bags from cearals, bread, carrots, the newspaper, etc.
26
The "bag taxes" are a cop-out. It's like when Coburn said, in effect, "what, we don't have the RIGHT to drive a gas-guzzler anymore?" No, we don't, we don't have a RIGHT to buy items that pollute the environment and harm people and animals much like we don't have a RIGHT to pour our used motor oil or paint down the storm drain. Jeezum, if we would just consistently put it in those terms, that your right to swing your fist stops at my face, and your plastic bag and gas-guzzler are all up in my face, that would subdue a lot of the idiot ranting that goes on. Or, if we really want to go the cost route, hire some smart economists who can figure out exactly how much gas and plastic bags should cost and then CHARGE THAT. Hell, I'm only a moderately smart economist and I think I could come up with a close approximation (and it's not $2.50 and $.05, respectively).
28
dog poop people should seek out biodegradable poop bags. just because you re-use a plastic bag for poop pickup does not mean it disappears. it just enters the trash mountain full of shit. not really a better option.
29
1. Ban cigarette butts being thrown anywhere with $1000 fine stop putting your gross salivating detritus in our space.
2. Fucking ban plastic bags.
3. To all the people who objected to the overstatement that "there is no justification for making these bags" by pointing out third world needs dog poop etc. shut up and stop quibbling we need to ban these fucking bags to stop garbaging the oceans and the earth. YOU can afford to buy a fucking bag like most Seattleites you probably already have
a fanny pack
a day use backpack
a hard core back pack
a messenger bag
a cotton tote bag
a huge purse
and 25 other bags and ski boot bags etc. etc. so just start being part of the solution not the problem ok?
Btw the grocery stores have TONS of nylon net bags used to deliver 50 lb sacks of onions and potatos they could give them out for free.
They've got nice color logos showing fruit and stuff.
Or look at Italy, get a fashion clue, get a gay rights bag or a save the whales bag whatever.
Even poor people can pay $25 a month for cell phones I hardly think buying a coupla bags is a big deal.
And get this:
WHEN YOU USE TRANSIT YOU NEED A BAG ANYWAY YOU CAN'T USE YOUR CAR TO HAUL OR YOUR SHIT AROUND.
The Seattle City Council is the most spineless set of wussies ever created crowing about their environmentalism and building a huge car tunnel bored underground -- give me a break.
The bag change is 0.005% of the total changes we need to stop garbaging the earth and deal with climate change too, so stop just voting for change and start making change, ok?
whew.
2. Fucking ban plastic bags.
3. To all the people who objected to the overstatement that "there is no justification for making these bags" by pointing out third world needs dog poop etc. shut up and stop quibbling we need to ban these fucking bags to stop garbaging the oceans and the earth. YOU can afford to buy a fucking bag like most Seattleites you probably already have
a fanny pack
a day use backpack
a hard core back pack
a messenger bag
a cotton tote bag
a huge purse
and 25 other bags and ski boot bags etc. etc. so just start being part of the solution not the problem ok?
Btw the grocery stores have TONS of nylon net bags used to deliver 50 lb sacks of onions and potatos they could give them out for free.
They've got nice color logos showing fruit and stuff.
Or look at Italy, get a fashion clue, get a gay rights bag or a save the whales bag whatever.
Even poor people can pay $25 a month for cell phones I hardly think buying a coupla bags is a big deal.
And get this:
WHEN YOU USE TRANSIT YOU NEED A BAG ANYWAY YOU CAN'T USE YOUR CAR TO HAUL OR YOUR SHIT AROUND.
The Seattle City Council is the most spineless set of wussies ever created crowing about their environmentalism and building a huge car tunnel bored underground -- give me a break.
The bag change is 0.005% of the total changes we need to stop garbaging the earth and deal with climate change too, so stop just voting for change and start making change, ok?
whew.
30
Fuck the U.N.
Oh, and fuck you whiny assholes who think banning shit is the right thing to do, too. We're coming after all your goodies next.
Oh, and fuck you whiny assholes who think banning shit is the right thing to do, too. We're coming after all your goodies next.
31
@1,
Cigarette filters don't serve a purpose anyway, they just don't work, so all smokes should be sold without filters. Problem solved.
Cigarette filters don't serve a purpose anyway, they just don't work, so all smokes should be sold without filters. Problem solved.
32
In Ireland, plastic bags cost 22c, and nobody complains anymore. Most placed provide paper bag alternatives without being incentivised. There's been a charge on them for years, and everyone is surviving fine.
33
ivan @8 - for the record, this was your buddy Mayor Nickels' proposal. Funny how you fail to mention that......
34
@28 yes there are good biodegradable bags out there but for the time being they are prohibitively expensive for most. the cost will go down sooner than later, though.
the newspaper bags work the best. if you don't get newspaper delivery, ask one of your neighbors who does if they will save them for you.
if it makes anyone feel better, they are teaching kids to avoid plastic in elementary school. the other day my kid was eating some of that 'three sisters' breakfast cereal that just comes in a bag, no box - he saw on the package where it says, "Ditch the box and save a tree!" and the first thing he said was, "well, is the bag made from corn? because if it's not then this is still bad for the earth."
the tide is shifting!!
the newspaper bags work the best. if you don't get newspaper delivery, ask one of your neighbors who does if they will save them for you.
if it makes anyone feel better, they are teaching kids to avoid plastic in elementary school. the other day my kid was eating some of that 'three sisters' breakfast cereal that just comes in a bag, no box - he saw on the package where it says, "Ditch the box and save a tree!" and the first thing he said was, "well, is the bag made from corn? because if it's not then this is still bad for the earth."
the tide is shifting!!
35
Uhhh....isn't a GLAD trash bag a "single-use" plastic bag?? So then if I use my plastic shopping bag as a trash-bag afterwards, I believe that makes me MORE environmentally friendly than the rest of you uptight la-di-da Seattle assholes.
And you know what that UN guy's statement proves, don't you? ...That he's a BIGOT! Just because my usage of plastic bags is different than his doesn't make me any less of a human being! This is about Civil Rights, people!! I will NOT sit on the back of the bus with my plastic bag!
People, we have to unite -- get your pitchforks, torches, and doggie bags and let's march on Washington against these BIGOTS! It's only a matter of time before the law changes and people recognize that our way is just as good as the rest of yous!
And you know what that UN guy's statement proves, don't you? ...That he's a BIGOT! Just because my usage of plastic bags is different than his doesn't make me any less of a human being! This is about Civil Rights, people!! I will NOT sit on the back of the bus with my plastic bag!
People, we have to unite -- get your pitchforks, torches, and doggie bags and let's march on Washington against these BIGOTS! It's only a matter of time before the law changes and people recognize that our way is just as good as the rest of yous!
37
I do believe that phasing plastic bags out would be a benifit to our planets health. Pursuing it must be balanced with working on other important issues such as our world wide food shortage and clean water shortage. One could also argue for the phasing out of bottled water as well.
38
24 Thanks for the link Theo.
On this one we all need to be on the same page before it's too late.
On this one we all need to be on the same page before it's too late.
39
Besides their obvious multiple uses, plastic bags have another distinct advantage: They are hella cheaper than paper.
40
@34: For real? Biodegradable dog poop bags are prohibitively for most???
A 10 second Google Shopping search reveals that it costs :::GASP::: $5.73!!! For 100 biodegradable bags!!!
If you can't afford that your ass is too fucking poor to properly care for a dog and you don't deserve to own one in the first place.
A 10 second Google Shopping search reveals that it costs :::GASP::: $5.73!!! For 100 biodegradable bags!!!
If you can't afford that your ass is too fucking poor to properly care for a dog and you don't deserve to own one in the first place.
42
If I can't be bothered to remember my cloth bags, I get paper. At least those can be easily recycled.
I have a few plastic bags collected over time here and there, and I recycle them every so often.
I have a few plastic bags collected over time here and there, and I recycle them every so often.
43
@ 33:
My buddy Nickels? WTF? If you think for a second I haven't gotten up in his face in person about this dumb-ass bag tax, you must not know very much about me.
We don't kiss our elected officials' asses in the 34th District. We like them, we respect them, we support them, we go have drinks with them, but we never let them forget who they're working for, either. When we think they're wrong, we let them know it.
My buddy Nickels? WTF? If you think for a second I haven't gotten up in his face in person about this dumb-ass bag tax, you must not know very much about me.
We don't kiss our elected officials' asses in the 34th District. We like them, we respect them, we support them, we go have drinks with them, but we never let them forget who they're working for, either. When we think they're wrong, we let them know it.
44
Man, what a bunch of whiny babies! "What am I going to do with my dog poop? Where am I going to get free garbage bags? Whaaaaaaaaa!"
Maybe you should all try taking some responsibility for the consequences of your behavior for once. The fact that we produce a ridiculous amount of garbage is fucked up. This bag fee would allow us to put that situation right in one little way, even if it means that some of you might have to change your wasteful behavior a little bit.
Maybe you should all try taking some responsibility for the consequences of your behavior for once. The fact that we produce a ridiculous amount of garbage is fucked up. This bag fee would allow us to put that situation right in one little way, even if it means that some of you might have to change your wasteful behavior a little bit.
45
@40/41 well then i guess it's been a while since i checked. i've been using my newspaper bags for quite a while now.
no need to be a fucking bitch about it, i was trying to be helpful.
no need to be a fucking bitch about it, i was trying to be helpful.
46
Plastic bags are cheaoer in what sense? I don't consider them cheap at all when the environmental impact is considered. " The average American family tosses out approximately 1,500 plastic sacks a year, and each one can take up to 1000 years to decompose. Those bags are manufactured from oil (and natural gas deriatives.) " And I did mention we're close to or at peak oil - we're gonna need that oil for other purposes. And the plastic bags don't really decompose - they just break into tinier and tinier bits until they enter the soil and water. If plastic bags were banned, along with paper bags, we would all adjust quickly and fairly painlessly. And that simple lifestyle change would really benefit the environment.
47
@44
Nope, it's not gonna happen. They will all get on their high horse about fucking plastic bags and feel like self-satisfied heros for using their cloth bag at the store...and then in the next minute they'll go out and buy the latest iPhone or shiny new laptop because their other one is just a few months old.
You're all a bunch of finger-pointing hypocrites. Even worse, you're all so goddamn predictable and bore the fuck out of me.
Nope, it's not gonna happen. They will all get on their high horse about fucking plastic bags and feel like self-satisfied heros for using their cloth bag at the store...and then in the next minute they'll go out and buy the latest iPhone or shiny new laptop because their other one is just a few months old.
You're all a bunch of finger-pointing hypocrites. Even worse, you're all so goddamn predictable and bore the fuck out of me.
48
@40/41 and besides, by prohibitively expensive, i didn't mean that people CAN'T pay, I meant that they generally won't pay double for something unless they have to.
go ahead and call me a moron for misusing the word "prohibitively." i'll wait.
go ahead and call me a moron for misusing the word "prohibitively." i'll wait.
50
honestly? why don't you take a step back and think about what you are saying. We are talking about paying $2 for a reusable bag that you can use for, um , EVER and bringing it with you when you go shopping. if this is too much of a burden for you handle, than you are a FUCKING INFANT and have no business being part of this complex, modern society that occasional demands a modicum of personal responsibility.
Remember all that shit from election season about how americans were yearning for more of a shared sacrifice and shared responsibility? Well now we are saying that you can't have infinity plastic bags for free anymore. Is this too much of a cross to bear?
Remember all that shit from election season about how americans were yearning for more of a shared sacrifice and shared responsibility? Well now we are saying that you can't have infinity plastic bags for free anymore. Is this too much of a cross to bear?
51
kind of surprising how many dumb right-wing babies comment on this blog
WAAAAH, I WANT MY PLASTIC BAGS, WAAAAH
WAAAAH, I WANT MY PLASTIC BAGS, WAAAAH
52
@49
Sniff, Sniff....did I hurt your feewings? Hahahahaha
You can dish it but you can't take it.
Big babies. Grow up.
Sniff, Sniff....did I hurt your feewings? Hahahahaha
You can dish it but you can't take it.
Big babies. Grow up.
54
For anyone who is interested in more information on environmental issues, the Guardian has an excellent environmental section online.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment
It is a bit British centric but at least it isn't a neo-conservative paper.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment
It is a bit British centric but at least it isn't a neo-conservative paper.
55
A 10 second Google Shopping search reveals that it costs :::GASP::: $5.73!!! For 100 biodegradable bags!!!
If you can't afford that your ass is too fucking poor to properly care for a dog and you don't deserve to own one in the first place.
Agreed.
If you can't afford that your ass is too fucking poor to properly care for a dog and you don't deserve to own one in the first place.
Agreed.
56
Seriously? From personal experience, I accumulate plastic bags way faster than I can use them (admittedly, I don't have a dog). My parents have an enormous collection at home, filling an entire cupboard. Between our green bin and recycling pick-up, my boyfriend and I produce about one grocery bag of trash every two weeks.
The nice thing about reusable bags is that the fact they're so sturdy means people are less likely to just throw them out if they get soiled or wet like they do with flimsy grocery bags. They also can carry much heavier things and the handles don't stretch and tear. It's a good investment, and ones sold here are often made from recycled plastic.
Hell, I'm really forgetful so I just keep a bunch of old plastic bags stuffed in my purse if I decide to pick up groceries. Still reusing.
The nice thing about reusable bags is that the fact they're so sturdy means people are less likely to just throw them out if they get soiled or wet like they do with flimsy grocery bags. They also can carry much heavier things and the handles don't stretch and tear. It's a good investment, and ones sold here are often made from recycled plastic.
Hell, I'm really forgetful so I just keep a bunch of old plastic bags stuffed in my purse if I decide to pick up groceries. Still reusing.
58
The problem is not the bags that you capitalists are trying to impose a tax of 20 cents a bag on the working poor.
The problem is that they are plastic.
Australia has compostable "plastic" bags made out of vegetable matter.
Cheap. Last ten days. Toss in your compost with the rest of the yard waste - or use them to shade your tomato plants until they dissolve in the rain.
The problem is that they are plastic.
Australia has compostable "plastic" bags made out of vegetable matter.
Cheap. Last ten days. Toss in your compost with the rest of the yard waste - or use them to shade your tomato plants until they dissolve in the rain.
60
oh and the Australian ones are cheaper cause they make them in bulk. It's called economy of scale.
We have choices. Whining and trying to impose a massive tax on the working poor won't work.
We have choices. Whining and trying to impose a massive tax on the working poor won't work.
61
However much you believe that plastic bags have their uses and shouldn't be banned entirely, you have to admit that they are wasted at unreasonable levels due to how they're used at grocery stores, and you can't deny that this has real environmental (and therefore economic) effects. Like someone pointed out earlier, most people who "re-use" their plastic bags accumulate them faster than they can re-use them, which should tell you a thing or two about how much overuse they get at grocery stores. And many, many people just throw them out immediately.
Stores can charge a reasonable amount to use their plastic bags, and I don't see the problem, other than a lot of whining by people who get a sort of weird, "man vs. nature" pride about excess consumption. An extra nickel per bag isn't going to ruin anyone unless you're being impossibly wasteful with them. If you paid for the bag, you're more likely to re-use it for something later (most people don't). You're also more likely to be more efficient with the bags and use fewer on a given trip. For poorer people, maybe bag credits can be part of the food stamp program or something, but I think that charging for plastic, in combination with giving credits for reusable cloth bags, would cut down plastic consumption without really harming anyone.
And for the "think about the third world" folks, I think that this is in the best interest of impoverished nations in the long-run. For one thing, they don't use as much plastic as places like the US; they re-use plastic bags, ziploc bags, etc. more times than most any US citizen. There's also no guarantee that a "plastic bags fee" would be universal; if a nation's citizens really can't afford it, then they probably won't do it. But most of the largest consumers of plastic are wealthier nations, who CAN afford such measures. It would be significant even if it only became standard in those places.
For another thing, did you know that TONS of the garbage from the US and Europe gets dumped into impoverished nations? And when that plastic ends up in the ocean and kills sea life, it severely damages communities whose economy is largely based on using ocean resources (fishing, tourism, etc). Dumping waste on poorer nations is a problem that goes way beyond plastic, yes, but if these wealthier nations would use less plastic themselves, it wouldn't exactly hurt impoverished nations.
So if you live in Nicaragua, we can debate whether or not you should be charged for using plastic grocery bags. But if you live in the US, or Canada, or the UK, Germany, Japan, Sweden, etc etc, then there's no debate. You do not need to be using enough plastic bags for a small fee to send you to the poorhouse. The whole point is to get people to use less plastic, since it's a fact that we are using too much. You're only being ironic when you say "but if they charge for them, I can't use as many!"
This isn't just a bunch of liberal meanies trying to inconvenience you just for the hell of it. It's a simple case of our society getting into the habit of using something at levels that are not realistically affordable, so we need to break that habit. Breaking habits is always inconvenient, but trust me, in the long run it'll be far less convenient to keep using plastic at our current levels.
More...
Stores can charge a reasonable amount to use their plastic bags, and I don't see the problem, other than a lot of whining by people who get a sort of weird, "man vs. nature" pride about excess consumption. An extra nickel per bag isn't going to ruin anyone unless you're being impossibly wasteful with them. If you paid for the bag, you're more likely to re-use it for something later (most people don't). You're also more likely to be more efficient with the bags and use fewer on a given trip. For poorer people, maybe bag credits can be part of the food stamp program or something, but I think that charging for plastic, in combination with giving credits for reusable cloth bags, would cut down plastic consumption without really harming anyone.
And for the "think about the third world" folks, I think that this is in the best interest of impoverished nations in the long-run. For one thing, they don't use as much plastic as places like the US; they re-use plastic bags, ziploc bags, etc. more times than most any US citizen. There's also no guarantee that a "plastic bags fee" would be universal; if a nation's citizens really can't afford it, then they probably won't do it. But most of the largest consumers of plastic are wealthier nations, who CAN afford such measures. It would be significant even if it only became standard in those places.
For another thing, did you know that TONS of the garbage from the US and Europe gets dumped into impoverished nations? And when that plastic ends up in the ocean and kills sea life, it severely damages communities whose economy is largely based on using ocean resources (fishing, tourism, etc). Dumping waste on poorer nations is a problem that goes way beyond plastic, yes, but if these wealthier nations would use less plastic themselves, it wouldn't exactly hurt impoverished nations.
So if you live in Nicaragua, we can debate whether or not you should be charged for using plastic grocery bags. But if you live in the US, or Canada, or the UK, Germany, Japan, Sweden, etc etc, then there's no debate. You do not need to be using enough plastic bags for a small fee to send you to the poorhouse. The whole point is to get people to use less plastic, since it's a fact that we are using too much. You're only being ironic when you say "but if they charge for them, I can't use as many!"
This isn't just a bunch of liberal meanies trying to inconvenience you just for the hell of it. It's a simple case of our society getting into the habit of using something at levels that are not realistically affordable, so we need to break that habit. Breaking habits is always inconvenient, but trust me, in the long run it'll be far less convenient to keep using plastic at our current levels.
62
@61
Wow. I'm actually impressed. There *are* some intelligent, thinking people in Seattle after all. Nice to find a person who doesn't think so one-dimensionally. Edu-ma-cate the rest of 'em, would you?
Wow. I'm actually impressed. There *are* some intelligent, thinking people in Seattle after all. Nice to find a person who doesn't think so one-dimensionally. Edu-ma-cate the rest of 'em, would you?
63
I'm in agreement with Bonefish.
For those dog owners, you can buy a waste composter specifically designed for pet waste called the Doggie Dooley: http://www.gaiam.com
For those dog owners, you can buy a waste composter specifically designed for pet waste called the Doggie Dooley: http://www.gaiam.com
64
Also, 58, 60, etc: the point of the tax wouldn't be to fuck over the working poor. It would be to provide an incentive for alternatives. With a tax on plastic, maybe there would be a greater demand in the US for those biodegradable bags you're talking about, making them the standard, so that they would become cheaper here, too, since they would no longer be an obscure specialty item that's only used by hippies.
65
They didn't mention how, fortunately, biodegradable & compostable ("plastic") bags have arrived? I agree, there is no justification for plastic bags anymore. There shouldn't HAVE to be a ban, ideally we should all be smart and considerate enough to drop non-biodegradable bags. But are we? HA. At least Seattle's a more considerate city
66
I get the whole concept, but what will I use to clean the cat box? Plastic bags are cheep, easy and well, recycled, when put to house hold uses. It doesn't really make sense to buy something made especially for the purpose. I use recycled cat sand (it's not really "sand"). I can't let my cats out as they're elderly.
68
@66
Use GLAD "single use" trash bags. Apparently they're hippie-supported, so long as you also own a cloth bag with some liberal propaganda on it. You can go to the store on the bus to buy them with all your "progressive" friends and talk about how great you guys are for saving the world.
Use GLAD "single use" trash bags. Apparently they're hippie-supported, so long as you also own a cloth bag with some liberal propaganda on it. You can go to the store on the bus to buy them with all your "progressive" friends and talk about how great you guys are for saving the world.
69
66, plastic bags will still exist; we just have to be more moderate in our use of them. So use plastic for things that don't have a good substitute (like cleaning up dog shit, cat shit, etc) instead of as grocery bags (which have cloth substitutes). If you can afford it, use biodegradable plastics. The point isn't to get rid of plastic as a technology, the point is to avoid wasting 90 billion bags worth of plastic per year.
And not, as lots of trolls suggest, so that we can all be good progressive hippies and sip our lattes and live in ivy towers and [insert stupid right-winger liberal-bashing phrase here]. It's because:
1) The supplies that go into making plastic are limited, and getting more expensive
2) The environmental effects of huge amounts of plastic waste are real
3) Contrary to what Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and other coddled pussies would have you believe, a healthy ecosystem really is an important thing to have, even if you have to go through the hardship of *gasp* mild inconvenience. It's sort of how we get things like air, water, food, lack of cancer, etc. If you don't believe these are necessary, feel free to go without air and water for a couple days. Maybe drink some motor oil or a PCB cocktail; see where that gets you.
4) Grocery bags are not one of the necessary uses of plastic. You can carry your groceries in just about anything, but plastic needs to be used for things like medical supplies, lab equipment, condoms, etc.
Any oaf capable of seeing the most basic laws of cause and effect should be able to see where plastic needs to be used only where it's necessary.
If people want to live in an imaginary wonderland where petroleum is infinite, plastic bags provide sea turtles with healthy vitamins and minerals, nobody's food or economic well-being comes from the ocean, and ecosystems can adapt to huge changes in a split-second for your convenience, fine. But keep that shit inside your own head; don't try and argue as if such ideas have any basis in reality. It's not like it's a BAD thing to do less harm to the environment, unless you have some weird "man vs. nature" complex. And even if you're one of those freaks, put your money where your mouth is and "dominate" nature by becoming a rodeo cowboy or by hunting with your bare hands or wrestling gators or something. Not by sitting around on your fat ass driving cars and throwing plastic bags into the ocean.
More...
And not, as lots of trolls suggest, so that we can all be good progressive hippies and sip our lattes and live in ivy towers and [insert stupid right-winger liberal-bashing phrase here]. It's because:
1) The supplies that go into making plastic are limited, and getting more expensive
2) The environmental effects of huge amounts of plastic waste are real
3) Contrary to what Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh, and other coddled pussies would have you believe, a healthy ecosystem really is an important thing to have, even if you have to go through the hardship of *gasp* mild inconvenience. It's sort of how we get things like air, water, food, lack of cancer, etc. If you don't believe these are necessary, feel free to go without air and water for a couple days. Maybe drink some motor oil or a PCB cocktail; see where that gets you.
4) Grocery bags are not one of the necessary uses of plastic. You can carry your groceries in just about anything, but plastic needs to be used for things like medical supplies, lab equipment, condoms, etc.
Any oaf capable of seeing the most basic laws of cause and effect should be able to see where plastic needs to be used only where it's necessary.
If people want to live in an imaginary wonderland where petroleum is infinite, plastic bags provide sea turtles with healthy vitamins and minerals, nobody's food or economic well-being comes from the ocean, and ecosystems can adapt to huge changes in a split-second for your convenience, fine. But keep that shit inside your own head; don't try and argue as if such ideas have any basis in reality. It's not like it's a BAD thing to do less harm to the environment, unless you have some weird "man vs. nature" complex. And even if you're one of those freaks, put your money where your mouth is and "dominate" nature by becoming a rodeo cowboy or by hunting with your bare hands or wrestling gators or something. Not by sitting around on your fat ass driving cars and throwing plastic bags into the ocean.
71
And 67, all you need is a porch, a rocking chair, and a blunderbuss. That'll keep your lawn clean as a whistle.
72
To those of you who believe that it is up for debate whether plastic bags should be banned in third world countries:
Bangladesh, which experiences major flooding every year, had particularly bad years in 1988 and 1998. They learned the major culprit was plastic bags blocking the storm drains and since 2002, plastic bags have been banned in the capitol.
A partial list of countries that have fees or bans on plastic bags:
India
China
Tanzania
Kenya
Uganda
South Africa
Ethiopia
Papua New Guinea
Samoa
Bhutan
Malta
Zanzibar
Eritrea
Turkey
Philippines
Botswana
Pakistan
West Bengal
Germay
Denmark
Switzerland
Australia
Sweden
France
Paper bags are actually just as bad, if not worse, as plastic bags in total environmental footprint.
It takes four times the energy to make a paper bag as a plastic bag.
Bangladesh, which experiences major flooding every year, had particularly bad years in 1988 and 1998. They learned the major culprit was plastic bags blocking the storm drains and since 2002, plastic bags have been banned in the capitol.
A partial list of countries that have fees or bans on plastic bags:
India
China
Tanzania
Kenya
Uganda
South Africa
Ethiopia
Papua New Guinea
Samoa
Bhutan
Malta
Zanzibar
Eritrea
Turkey
Philippines
Botswana
Pakistan
West Bengal
Germay
Denmark
Switzerland
Australia
Sweden
France
Paper bags are actually just as bad, if not worse, as plastic bags in total environmental footprint.
It takes four times the energy to make a paper bag as a plastic bag.
73
somedays, you people amaze me. Isn't the root word of liberal "liber", meaning free?
And here you are talking about yet another ban on something?
It's the neverending story around here. Somehow, someway, someone isn't doing things the way you want it done, so you're going to force people to live like you want them to.
Environmentalists are like watermelons: green on the outside and red on the inside.
And here you are talking about yet another ban on something?
It's the neverending story around here. Somehow, someway, someone isn't doing things the way you want it done, so you're going to force people to live like you want them to.
Environmentalists are like watermelons: green on the outside and red on the inside.
74
If anyone doubts the trouble that plastic bags can cause, I would offer them This American Life #253, originally broadcast in 2003. The introduction brings us the tale of Capt. Charles Moore, who once upon a time stumbled across the world's garbage bin ... in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, including a ten-mile flotilla of plastic bags.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep…
I mean, really ... that's a lot of freakin' bags.
It's only a three-minute segment. It's worth the time, I promise.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep…
I mean, really ... that's a lot of freakin' bags.
It's only a three-minute segment. It's worth the time, I promise.
75
Sorry. I hadn't played with the new registration system yet. Let's try that again, and see if it works:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep…
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/Radio_Ep…
76
AR: it's not about being able to lay title to the term "liberal." Frankly, I don't give a shit where you want to classify me.
You may have a point if using plastic bags was some sort of inalienable right that people would greatly suffer without. But it's not. It's not like we're banning free speech here. We're not even BANNING plastic bags. We're pushing measures to reduce their use. This probably means nothing more than a tax on them, and rewards for using reusable bags, as an incentive. It's not exactly a totalitarian dictatorship.
It's not as simple as people living their lives in ways we don't like. It's about society being set up in ways that cause destruction that the planet, and therefore society itself, cannot afford. There's a difference between individual rights and societal practices. In this case, there's a societal practice that is harmful to the environment. Environmental harm tends to cause harm to people as well. Therefore, it is in everyone's best interest to minimize it. That's just reality. If your political ideology doesn't work with reality, than it's not reality that needs to change, and you don't get to call people hypocrites for allowing reality to influence their political ideologies instead of just hoping that basic laws of cause-and-effect will go away if we pretend that they don't exist.
If we discover that it's harmful to dump lead into streams, then we have to prevent people/businesses from dumping lead into streams. Since we've discovered that it's harmful to have big free-for-alls with plastic bags, then we need to stop practicing those free-for-alls. There's nothing wrong with expecting society to adopt practices that cause the lowest levels of harm, while also advocating for civil liberties. You can balance the two if you're willing to spend more than 10 minutes' thought on it.
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You may have a point if using plastic bags was some sort of inalienable right that people would greatly suffer without. But it's not. It's not like we're banning free speech here. We're not even BANNING plastic bags. We're pushing measures to reduce their use. This probably means nothing more than a tax on them, and rewards for using reusable bags, as an incentive. It's not exactly a totalitarian dictatorship.
It's not as simple as people living their lives in ways we don't like. It's about society being set up in ways that cause destruction that the planet, and therefore society itself, cannot afford. There's a difference between individual rights and societal practices. In this case, there's a societal practice that is harmful to the environment. Environmental harm tends to cause harm to people as well. Therefore, it is in everyone's best interest to minimize it. That's just reality. If your political ideology doesn't work with reality, than it's not reality that needs to change, and you don't get to call people hypocrites for allowing reality to influence their political ideologies instead of just hoping that basic laws of cause-and-effect will go away if we pretend that they don't exist.
If we discover that it's harmful to dump lead into streams, then we have to prevent people/businesses from dumping lead into streams. Since we've discovered that it's harmful to have big free-for-alls with plastic bags, then we need to stop practicing those free-for-alls. There's nothing wrong with expecting society to adopt practices that cause the lowest levels of harm, while also advocating for civil liberties. You can balance the two if you're willing to spend more than 10 minutes' thought on it.
77
I can't be the only one that reuses those bags, doubled, as garbage bags?
And when I get too many in my cupboard I do recycle them.
So, why should they stop being manufactured? To make me BUY garbage bags?
And when I get too many in my cupboard I do recycle them.
So, why should they stop being manufactured? To make me BUY garbage bags?
78
I don't get what others are complaining about. I have a cat and a very full litter box but the number of plastic bags I get for free is outrageous. Even if I had to pay for bags I would still be okay with the drawer-full I have now and the free bags I get from other products. We need to use less of them. I admit that I don't take my reusable bags often enough and I think that any measures that encouraged me to do so would be good for us all (even if they were inconvenient for me!)
79
@76 - like has been pointed out to you, if plastic bags are this grave "social and planetary harm" to be worried about, why aren't you pushing to ban them, then?
Regardless of that, if you want people to stop using plastic bags, you can use the power of your dollar to do so and inform stores that do not charge for plastic bags you won't patronize their businesses. Hell, if plastic bags really infuriate you that much, you can start a whole group of people and inform the stores that if they promise to charge 5 cents for bags, you'll all shop there on one day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkGMVQl8_…
And, 76, the reason that we ban lead in water is because of the direct harm on a crucial water supply necessary for life. Not to be crass, but how is marine ocean life in any crucial to human survival? Why should all six billion people on earth pay their governments more money for animals whose benefits are indeterminate at best?
Regardless of that, if you want people to stop using plastic bags, you can use the power of your dollar to do so and inform stores that do not charge for plastic bags you won't patronize their businesses. Hell, if plastic bags really infuriate you that much, you can start a whole group of people and inform the stores that if they promise to charge 5 cents for bags, you'll all shop there on one day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkGMVQl8_…
And, 76, the reason that we ban lead in water is because of the direct harm on a crucial water supply necessary for life. Not to be crass, but how is marine ocean life in any crucial to human survival? Why should all six billion people on earth pay their governments more money for animals whose benefits are indeterminate at best?
80
@77: How much garbage do you make? The small kitchen bin liners I've seen that are comparable to the size of an average grocery bag cost about 10 cents at the most. Hell, if you're so pissed about paying that, just spend the nickel at the grocery store and you've beat the system.
You recycle your bags when they get too numerous, which is great, but the whole point of a bag tax is to make sure you only get as many bags as you really need, and prevent you from accumulating so many you have to throw them away.
The interesting thing is that plenty of grocery stores have always charged for bags. The discount chains in Toronto -- the ones who cater to poor people! -- have always charged a nickel for each plastic bag. Instead, they provide cardboard boxes that all their products were shipped in, and encourage people to take them.
The funny thing, if you follow the suggestion of those like @79, is that you would probably be spending *more* money here if you only shopped at places with free grocery bags, because their groceries cost more.
You recycle your bags when they get too numerous, which is great, but the whole point of a bag tax is to make sure you only get as many bags as you really need, and prevent you from accumulating so many you have to throw them away.
The interesting thing is that plenty of grocery stores have always charged for bags. The discount chains in Toronto -- the ones who cater to poor people! -- have always charged a nickel for each plastic bag. Instead, they provide cardboard boxes that all their products were shipped in, and encourage people to take them.
The funny thing, if you follow the suggestion of those like @79, is that you would probably be spending *more* money here if you only shopped at places with free grocery bags, because their groceries cost more.
81
@72
You've clearly NEVER lived in a third world country. Yeh, you go ahead and try and ban the things that are free for consumers and useful for everybody in places where it's the only form of trash bag. HA! And then take your soapbox on over to Africa and Latin America and preach to them all about how they should use a trendy fair-trade cloth bag instead that they can all pick up at Whole Foods. Hahahahahaha.
Try leaving the country before you make sweeping statements about what people in the rest of the world should do and how they OUGHT to live from your cushy, rich, privileged vantage point.
You've clearly NEVER lived in a third world country. Yeh, you go ahead and try and ban the things that are free for consumers and useful for everybody in places where it's the only form of trash bag. HA! And then take your soapbox on over to Africa and Latin America and preach to them all about how they should use a trendy fair-trade cloth bag instead that they can all pick up at Whole Foods. Hahahahahaha.
Try leaving the country before you make sweeping statements about what people in the rest of the world should do and how they OUGHT to live from your cushy, rich, privileged vantage point.
82
@72: The governments in many developing countries have ALREADY instituted bans -- nobody *needs* (or wants) to go over there to dictate. That was the 72's point. It was a factual list of what HAS been done in countries locally, not a "to do" list for overseas soapbox preachers. Read again.
83
One point: What's up with basing debates on the welfare of people who aren't you? Like with the carless community debate, which brought out people's concerns for the elderly and infirm, this debate seems to bring out everyone's previously unheard-of concerns for developing countries who run their economies and feed their children on plastic bags.
It would be refreshing to hear from an ACTUAL senior citizen whose life would be destroyed by carsharing and accessible public transit or, here, an ACTUAL resident or former resident of a country where a ban or tax on plastic bags has devastated the poor. I would still carry on the debate, but I'd really welcome their input.
It would be refreshing to hear from an ACTUAL senior citizen whose life would be destroyed by carsharing and accessible public transit or, here, an ACTUAL resident or former resident of a country where a ban or tax on plastic bags has devastated the poor. I would still carry on the debate, but I'd really welcome their input.
84
@83
Yeah! Great mentality! Fuck everyone that's not YOU! Wow - you're a true American! We should all just think about ourselves and fuck off to everybody else! ...Er, whoops. But wait- that flies right in the face of what this whole discussion is all about - trying to make the world a better place for ourselves AND one another.
The people whose voices you want to hear so badly don't read and/or post to the lefty, liberal, white Seattle Stranger blog. That's the problem. Some of us lead lives where we have real relationships with ALL types of people from all different kinds of backgrounds, ethnicities, nationalities, socio-economic classes, etc (not just the token Black/Asian friend) and can clue the rest of you in about what's going on with them here (in this blog).
If the rest of you opened your worlds a bit more, you wouldn't have to be EXPLAINED these perspectives. The point is: these issues aren't always as straightforward as you might think from your narrow little bubble in the world!
Yeah! Great mentality! Fuck everyone that's not YOU! Wow - you're a true American! We should all just think about ourselves and fuck off to everybody else! ...Er, whoops. But wait- that flies right in the face of what this whole discussion is all about - trying to make the world a better place for ourselves AND one another.
The people whose voices you want to hear so badly don't read and/or post to the lefty, liberal, white Seattle Stranger blog. That's the problem. Some of us lead lives where we have real relationships with ALL types of people from all different kinds of backgrounds, ethnicities, nationalities, socio-economic classes, etc (not just the token Black/Asian friend) and can clue the rest of you in about what's going on with them here (in this blog).
If the rest of you opened your worlds a bit more, you wouldn't have to be EXPLAINED these perspectives. The point is: these issues aren't always as straightforward as you might think from your narrow little bubble in the world!
85
79: When someone asks me "what good is [species A]," my usual response is "what good are YOU?" In my opinion, this should be a good enough response, but I'll go a little further this time.
How is marine life crucial to human survival? The majority of the human population lives near the coast. The majority of the world relies on seafood as their main source of meat (many Americans forget this just because we prefer beef and pork). Many nations' economies depend directly on marine resources (fishing, tourism, etc), and their ability to eat and acquire health care depends on the health of their economy. The ecosystems in the ocean have spent hundreds of millions of years evolving to certain conditions. They can't adapt to changes as rapid as the ones we're causing. When such an ecosystem gets thrown out of balance, unpredictable things can happen, oftentimes being directly dangerous to humans.
For example: HABs. Stands for "Harmful Algal Blooms," often known as "Red Tides." They usually happen when humans, usually through sewage, dump excess amounts of raw nutrients (usually Nitrogen and Phosphorous) into the water. These nutrients usually cause blooms of certain types of algae, which in turn release deadly toxins. This isn't very good for humans, and goes to show how major, unforeseen consequences DO arise, and we therefore need to be careful.
Or the communities in the Philippines (and other places) who practice dynamite fishing and cyanide fishing for the aquarium trade. The blast (or the cyanide) stuns the fish, they collect it, and they sell it to the aquarium industries for a quick buck. The problem is that dynamite and cyanide also destroy the coral reefs. Less coral means fewer fish for the aquarium trade (no more profits), and fewer fish for food. It also means less tourism, but the general point is that it means less food and money overall.
The point is that when things get thrown far enough out of balance (like key species of marine birds, mammals, reptiles, and fish being killed by these plastic bags), it can reduce food supplies directly, and reduce income as well, for people who depend on the ocean (which is the vast majority of humanity). Even if it didn't, however, your argument is still impotent. If we were calling for some sort of major human sacrifice for the sake of the ocean's health, you may have a point. But we're calling for a minor inconvenience. There's no reason to put petty conveniences over the health of an entire ecosystem, even if we didn't think it would come back around to bite us in the ass.
And we can either picket to get one store at a time to charge for their plastic bags (as if we have all the time in the world), or we can make it standard to charge for them through legislation. Since it's business practices, and not civil liberties, that are in question here, I say there's no harm in legislation. People who think that businesses can be tamed entirely by market forces and the "invisible hand" seem to forget that the US already went through a phase where government intervention in business was virtually nonexistent, and the "invisible hand" dictated how businesses behaved. And what did we get? Child labor, company towns, horribly dangerous working conditions, monopolies, rampant environmental destruction, slave-like wages, and on and on. In places that still have "laissez-faire" economics, you get sweatshops, and not much else. The Invisible Hand does nothing except flip us the Invisible Finger.
I'll take a little bit of government intervention in business practices, because that's what works. And if that means I have to be called "environmentalist" or "socialist" or whatever instead of "liberal," fine. Just don't forget that individual liberties and business interests have been in direct opposition to one another for some time now, and the "individual liberties" part, along with environmental health, are more important to me.
More...
How is marine life crucial to human survival? The majority of the human population lives near the coast. The majority of the world relies on seafood as their main source of meat (many Americans forget this just because we prefer beef and pork). Many nations' economies depend directly on marine resources (fishing, tourism, etc), and their ability to eat and acquire health care depends on the health of their economy. The ecosystems in the ocean have spent hundreds of millions of years evolving to certain conditions. They can't adapt to changes as rapid as the ones we're causing. When such an ecosystem gets thrown out of balance, unpredictable things can happen, oftentimes being directly dangerous to humans.
For example: HABs. Stands for "Harmful Algal Blooms," often known as "Red Tides." They usually happen when humans, usually through sewage, dump excess amounts of raw nutrients (usually Nitrogen and Phosphorous) into the water. These nutrients usually cause blooms of certain types of algae, which in turn release deadly toxins. This isn't very good for humans, and goes to show how major, unforeseen consequences DO arise, and we therefore need to be careful.
Or the communities in the Philippines (and other places) who practice dynamite fishing and cyanide fishing for the aquarium trade. The blast (or the cyanide) stuns the fish, they collect it, and they sell it to the aquarium industries for a quick buck. The problem is that dynamite and cyanide also destroy the coral reefs. Less coral means fewer fish for the aquarium trade (no more profits), and fewer fish for food. It also means less tourism, but the general point is that it means less food and money overall.
The point is that when things get thrown far enough out of balance (like key species of marine birds, mammals, reptiles, and fish being killed by these plastic bags), it can reduce food supplies directly, and reduce income as well, for people who depend on the ocean (which is the vast majority of humanity). Even if it didn't, however, your argument is still impotent. If we were calling for some sort of major human sacrifice for the sake of the ocean's health, you may have a point. But we're calling for a minor inconvenience. There's no reason to put petty conveniences over the health of an entire ecosystem, even if we didn't think it would come back around to bite us in the ass.
And we can either picket to get one store at a time to charge for their plastic bags (as if we have all the time in the world), or we can make it standard to charge for them through legislation. Since it's business practices, and not civil liberties, that are in question here, I say there's no harm in legislation. People who think that businesses can be tamed entirely by market forces and the "invisible hand" seem to forget that the US already went through a phase where government intervention in business was virtually nonexistent, and the "invisible hand" dictated how businesses behaved. And what did we get? Child labor, company towns, horribly dangerous working conditions, monopolies, rampant environmental destruction, slave-like wages, and on and on. In places that still have "laissez-faire" economics, you get sweatshops, and not much else. The Invisible Hand does nothing except flip us the Invisible Finger.
I'll take a little bit of government intervention in business practices, because that's what works. And if that means I have to be called "environmentalist" or "socialist" or whatever instead of "liberal," fine. Just don't forget that individual liberties and business interests have been in direct opposition to one another for some time now, and the "individual liberties" part, along with environmental health, are more important to me.
86
@84: On the contrary. I think it's condescending for many of us to assume that we know others' perspectives well enough to wield them with such authority in this kind of debate. I think it's condescending for us to essentially hijack other people's problems for use in defending our personal interests.
It's naive to *automatically* assume that African governments can't defend their countries' own interests and that we must step in lest they be trampled and tyrannized by white nations. Maybe they can do it, maybe they can't, but it's not for us to say unless we have evidence.
My comment actually called out for these perspectives, but I was asking for the *addition* of more firsthand accounts, closer to the sources. I, as I said before, totally welcome more views, whether given by a person who actually experienced it, or at least a friend, or even just an account that can be documented, rather than some vague idea of a "poor, destitute Third World" country.
And speaking of close-mindedness, it's pretty narrow-minded of you to assume that I said the things I did because I'm white or American. I'm actually Asian-Canadian; my parents are Chinese immigrants and I live in Toronto. A lot of people, of greater diversity than you presume, read the Slog and the Stranger.
It's naive to *automatically* assume that African governments can't defend their countries' own interests and that we must step in lest they be trampled and tyrannized by white nations. Maybe they can do it, maybe they can't, but it's not for us to say unless we have evidence.
My comment actually called out for these perspectives, but I was asking for the *addition* of more firsthand accounts, closer to the sources. I, as I said before, totally welcome more views, whether given by a person who actually experienced it, or at least a friend, or even just an account that can be documented, rather than some vague idea of a "poor, destitute Third World" country.
And speaking of close-mindedness, it's pretty narrow-minded of you to assume that I said the things I did because I'm white or American. I'm actually Asian-Canadian; my parents are Chinese immigrants and I live in Toronto. A lot of people, of greater diversity than you presume, read the Slog and the Stranger.
87
@84: I'd also be interested in what kind of things you've heard from your diverse friends regarding this topic.
Several of my friends are from working class immigrant families like I am. Many of us are Asian. None of us have opposed the bag tax in our city.
None of my co-workers -- many of whom are middle-class, multi-generation European Canadians, but many are also non-white immigrants -- have complained either. We're all at different pay grades, including entry level like myself, middle management, and interns, and none of us have complained. There's also some diversity in age; some of us are in our 20s, but many are well into their 40s and 50s. Still no disagreement.
I'm not sure what you're presuming by thinking I haven't discussed this offline with non-Slog commentators and that I'm not keeping those ideas in mind when I speak here.
Several of my friends are from working class immigrant families like I am. Many of us are Asian. None of us have opposed the bag tax in our city.
None of my co-workers -- many of whom are middle-class, multi-generation European Canadians, but many are also non-white immigrants -- have complained either. We're all at different pay grades, including entry level like myself, middle management, and interns, and none of us have complained. There's also some diversity in age; some of us are in our 20s, but many are well into their 40s and 50s. Still no disagreement.
I'm not sure what you're presuming by thinking I haven't discussed this offline with non-Slog commentators and that I'm not keeping those ideas in mind when I speak here.
88
Gloria, some firsthand accounts would be nice. But many people aren't just pulling out vague images of "poor, destitute" third-world countries out of our asses (maybe 84 was; I didn't read their posts). Many of the effects of environmental damage on impoverished nations, and the phenomenon of rich nations dumping their harmful waste onto the soil of impoverished nations, are well-documented. Since it's an observable phenomenon, it's not patronizing to point out that it happens, or that its effects are harmful to the people who live in these places.
If we also observe that the nation being dumped on (let's say, Somalia), doesn't have an effective enough government to stop it, it's not patronizing to say so. Nor is it patronizing to therefore assume that other nations with a little more weight to throw around could intervene.
Now, assuming that an impoverished nation became impoverished entirely due to their own government's incompetence IS patronizing. It would also be patronizing to assume that such a place would never be able to have a competent government, or be completely independent from foreign aid. It would also be patronizing to ignore the systemic nature of most of these problems and blame them on individuals, or to try and assume anything about the individuals in these nations based on these problems.
But to recognize the context of a nation's poverty, its root causes and the forces that are keeping a nation impoverished, is very important. Firsthand accounts are great for the purpose of hearing what life is like with such conditions. But when it comes to solving the problem, you also have to look at cause and effect, and much of it is systemic, and beyond individual experience.
If we also observe that the nation being dumped on (let's say, Somalia), doesn't have an effective enough government to stop it, it's not patronizing to say so. Nor is it patronizing to therefore assume that other nations with a little more weight to throw around could intervene.
Now, assuming that an impoverished nation became impoverished entirely due to their own government's incompetence IS patronizing. It would also be patronizing to assume that such a place would never be able to have a competent government, or be completely independent from foreign aid. It would also be patronizing to ignore the systemic nature of most of these problems and blame them on individuals, or to try and assume anything about the individuals in these nations based on these problems.
But to recognize the context of a nation's poverty, its root causes and the forces that are keeping a nation impoverished, is very important. Firsthand accounts are great for the purpose of hearing what life is like with such conditions. But when it comes to solving the problem, you also have to look at cause and effect, and much of it is systemic, and beyond individual experience.
89
Bonefish, yer smart. Extremely insightful and an excellent writer. Hope you're using your intelligence elsewhere besides posting comments on a random blog. If you were/are in a position of power, you'd probably do a lot of good in this world.
90
@88: Actually, my comments weren't directed at you or your comments, but I see now how that could be interpreted. My comments were focused on the idea some commentators are putting forth of impoverished Africans' lives being apparently ruined if their only source of free trash bags is pulled from under their feet. I wasn't speaking to environmental issues at all, however tied they might be to poverty, because I honestly do not have the education.
"If we also observe that the nation being dumped on (let's say, Somalia), doesn't have an effective enough government to stop it, it's not patronizing to say so."
I do welcome the observation IF it's made of a country and its specific circumstances, through actual documentation and observation -- not a generalized, simplistic idea of "Third World" or "Africa", an entire continent of individual governments and economies.
I spoke of "hijacking" other nations' problems because some comments here give off the feeling of selective compassion. I sincerely doubt the majority of people who use the "poor African" argument really have given a thought to the plight of those overseas -- especially their source for free trash bags -- before they were faced with the threat of a local tax. Now that a convenience of comfort is being threatened with a minor restriction, it's time to pull out "well, if you don't agree, you're trampling on poor people" argument.
"If we also observe that the nation being dumped on (let's say, Somalia), doesn't have an effective enough government to stop it, it's not patronizing to say so."
I do welcome the observation IF it's made of a country and its specific circumstances, through actual documentation and observation -- not a generalized, simplistic idea of "Third World" or "Africa", an entire continent of individual governments and economies.
I spoke of "hijacking" other nations' problems because some comments here give off the feeling of selective compassion. I sincerely doubt the majority of people who use the "poor African" argument really have given a thought to the plight of those overseas -- especially their source for free trash bags -- before they were faced with the threat of a local tax. Now that a convenience of comfort is being threatened with a minor restriction, it's time to pull out "well, if you don't agree, you're trampling on poor people" argument.
91
Actually, this is all moot. Turns out you can use organic solar cells to crank out 10 percent efficient coatings on the plastic bags, or even make them of nanomaterials that biodegrade into material we could use for biomass - just saw some cool new research displays today at the UW Tower.
Adapt. Or die.
Adapt. Or die.
92
How's this for a ringing endorsement of plastic bags... so I got some fruit flies and decided to run downhill to QFC to get some apple cider vinegar so I could finish the fuckers off. I buy a little glass bottle, the cashier puts it in a plastic bag without asking my preference. I say nothing and head off since I just want to get back home (dinner's in the oven).
I head uphill with the bag by the handles. About a block from my home, a hole suddenly rips in the bag, the bottle slips out and shatters on the sidewalk. I was PISSED because then I had to walk all the way downhill, get a replacement bottle (I carried the biggest pieces of the bottle with me as evidence) and walk all the way back up the hill. Obviously, I carried the bottle in my hands the 2nd time up.
This would have never happened with a paper or cloth bag, which could hold a couple large bottles each before beginning to give. This is how weak plastic bags have become: One could not hold a single 16 oz glass bottle during a half mile walk.
I head uphill with the bag by the handles. About a block from my home, a hole suddenly rips in the bag, the bottle slips out and shatters on the sidewalk. I was PISSED because then I had to walk all the way downhill, get a replacement bottle (I carried the biggest pieces of the bottle with me as evidence) and walk all the way back up the hill. Obviously, I carried the bottle in my hands the 2nd time up.
This would have never happened with a paper or cloth bag, which could hold a couple large bottles each before beginning to give. This is how weak plastic bags have become: One could not hold a single 16 oz glass bottle during a half mile walk.
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