Friday, June 5, 2009
Politics / Homo Sorry, White House, But Hate Crimes Doesn't Cut It
Posted by Dan Savage on Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 9:48 AM
Responding to critics upset by the Obama administration's inaction on gay issues—expectations were heightened by all that talk of "fierce advocacy"—Jim Messina, the deputy White House chief of staff and point man on LGBT issues, insists that the president's "commitment has not wavered," and "complained that the administration hasn’t gotten enough credit for pushing to outlaw hate crimes" targeting gays and lesbians.
First off, we're not helping the hate crimes cause when we mangle the language like that, and you would expect a politically savvy, highly-placed homo to choose his words more carefully. Hate crimes legislation doesn't "outlaw hate crimes" against queers; they don't confer some sort of special immunity from crime on gays and lesbians. They merely recognize that a hate crime impacts not just the individual victim but an entire group of people; the perpetrators of a hate crime are attempting to make that whole group feel threatened and unsafe. Like premeditation or other factors relating to intent, hate crimes legislation merely allows prosecutors, judges, and juries to take intent and state of mind into account when charging or sentencing someone who targeted a victim based on the victim's race, religion, or sexual orientation. (Gay people and straight people are protected under hate crimes statutes.) It doesn't make it "extra illegal" to punch a fag, as religious groups and no-nothing conservative commentators insist. The White House's point person on LGBT issues shouldn't be playing into their hands on this point.
But more important: hate crimes legislation passed in the last, far-less Dem-heavy Congress, long before Obama was elected president. Says John at Americablog:
They want credit for pushing to outlaw hate crimes? Who exactly is the White House pushing? The bill passed both the House and Senate in the last, more hostile, Congress, and even survived a filibuster attempt. With even more Democrats in this Congress, there isn't anyone needing a push. Obama certainly deserves credit for saying he'd sign the bill, when Bush wouldn't. But that's different than claiming credit for "pushing to outlaw hate crimes"—in essence suggesting that White House pressure is partly responsible for a congressional vote that's already pre-ordained without their help.
Sorry, White Housers, but Hate Crimes isn't going to cut it. We expected Obama to sign the Hate Crimes bill as a matter of course. The promises that really mattered—the promises that got Obama much traction with gay voters, the issues that matter most to LGBT voters—were repealing DADT and scrapping DOMA. If you're upset by the high expectations that gay voters and bloggers have for Obama, blame the president. He raised our expectations with his soaring pro-gay-rights rhetoric and his detailed promises about advancing LGBT equality. Want to mollify the president's queer critics? Stop dissembling and start delivering.
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2
In before Loveschild says something idiotic before she completely wanders off into her own reality, Kim to say something beautiful and supportive and make me love her even more, and Baconcat to bring it all home with something funny and witty.
On topic, I am not surprised by any actions this administration has not taken.
Also, please note that I did not use the word "yet" at the end of that sentence.
On topic, I am not surprised by any actions this administration has not taken.
Also, please note that I did not use the word "yet" at the end of that sentence.
3
BS, Sorry, are you the gays worst enemy Mr Savage? looks like you rather have both congress and the President dump any hate crimes legislation for homosexuals. So much threatening with your wish list will just leave you empty handed in the end. THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS (economy, nuclear proliferation) on the home front and worldwide to deal with and with a greater sense of urgency than indulging on your SELFISH demands.
4
BS, Sorry, are you the gays worst enemy Mr Savage? looks like you rather have both congress and the President dump any hate crimes legislation for homosexuals. So much threatening with your wish list will just leave you empty handed in the end. THERE ARE MORE IMPORTANT THINGS (economy, nuclear proliferation) on the home front and worldwide to deal with and with a greater sense of urgency than indulging on your SELFISH demands.
8
". . .the issues that matter most to LGBT voters—were repealing DADT and scrapping DOMA."
um, Dan? What about the all inclusive version of ENDA?
You write "LGBT" but really mean "LGB," no?
sigh.
um, Dan? What about the all inclusive version of ENDA?
You write "LGBT" but really mean "LGB," no?
sigh.
9
Dan Doesn't really care much about transgendereds, although he would like to help them in theory.
The same way Obama doesn't really care much about gays and lesbians but would like and will help them.
But of course Dan will flip out and go crayzee if he doesn't get his way while ignoring that others don't.
The same way Obama doesn't really care much about gays and lesbians but would like and will help them.
But of course Dan will flip out and go crayzee if he doesn't get his way while ignoring that others don't.
10
@3 When will you ever learn that asking to be treated like every other human being in the US is not a selfish demand. Would you have waited for these rights? Would you have sat there with your mouth shut and quietly awaited the possibility of something actually happening?
Do you think that anything would be happening right now if people weren't talking about it? Demanding to be recognized? Protesting their oppression?
If Dan kept his mouth shut, if anyone in support of the rights of HUMAN BEINGS in this country to be treated equally just kept their mouth shut where the fuck would we be right now?
And open your eyes, no where does he say that he wants the legislation dumped, he makes a well thought through point that FINALLY recognizing violence against the gay community for what it has always been A HATE CRIME does not STOP the crimes, it just allows the punishment. What RIGHTS does that add for the gay community?
What is with people thinking that anyone should "settle" for "good enough" or "just for now"?
Do you know what would happen if people like Dan Savage stopped shouting out to be acknowledged? NOTHING WOULD GET DONE. That is what conservative fuckwitts want, they want Dan to take the promise of possibilities and shut the fuck up so that they don't have to listen to it anymore ... and then nothing would happen.
Do you think that anything would be happening right now if people weren't talking about it? Demanding to be recognized? Protesting their oppression?
If Dan kept his mouth shut, if anyone in support of the rights of HUMAN BEINGS in this country to be treated equally just kept their mouth shut where the fuck would we be right now?
And open your eyes, no where does he say that he wants the legislation dumped, he makes a well thought through point that FINALLY recognizing violence against the gay community for what it has always been A HATE CRIME does not STOP the crimes, it just allows the punishment. What RIGHTS does that add for the gay community?
What is with people thinking that anyone should "settle" for "good enough" or "just for now"?
Do you know what would happen if people like Dan Savage stopped shouting out to be acknowledged? NOTHING WOULD GET DONE. That is what conservative fuckwitts want, they want Dan to take the promise of possibilities and shut the fuck up so that they don't have to listen to it anymore ... and then nothing would happen.
11
@3 - So you're saying that our President is so weak and ineffective he can't do more than one thing at the same time? Wow, what an endorsement.
12
I don't get it. So you are in favor of the Federal Government passing Hate Crimes legislation that will reverse the Government policies of DODT and DOMA? Doesn't that just perpetuate the Gay-And-Persecuted label?
Seems like you are striving too hard to remain a demographic with the government. Lay low. It's the secret of the straight.
Seems like you are striving too hard to remain a demographic with the government. Lay low. It's the secret of the straight.
13
Lolwut? Straight people having been "laying low"? We should try to avoid being a "demographic with the government"? What the fuck does that even mean?
14
I'm still mad that those selfish black folk picked the 1950s to start being uppity. We had Communism to worry about then! They should have waited til the Iron Curtain fell. Oh wait, the economy was kinda sucking then too, wasn't it?
Eat shit, LC. There's never a convenient time for the oppressed to rise up. Deal with it.
Eat shit, LC. There's never a convenient time for the oppressed to rise up. Deal with it.
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@13 - I guess I'm just not familiar with the complaints of the gay population. Are they something the Federal Government should be concerned about differently than the general population?
16
@15 Ummm ... the point is that the government IS concerned about them differently ... that is what people are trying to change. Are you paying attention?
17
No, I guess I haven't been. I see what you are saying now though. Good luck out there with the government.
18
President Obama doesn't want to start "not walking the walk" with gay people. Others important to his success might get the idea he doesn't keep his word.
19
When the economy is in the tank and a host of other problems are plaguing the world is EXACTLY the time that human rights for EVERYONE ought to exist -or at least someone should be pushing for them. After all, an economic downturn can catapult an anlready demonized group to real trouble ... LC, read some history and pay attention to the Jews' problems after Hitler was elected. Come to think of it, Hitler sent homosexuals to the concentration camps as well.....
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@19 You know, you don't hear much about the murder of homosexuals in Hitler's camps. Where's our memorial? Maybe we should build one someplace nice, like Kansas.
21
19 :::: WOW! ::::
Um, I don't know what to respond to that. Our President is like Hitler now!?!
there's just no place to go with a comment like that.
Now gays in america are experiencing the same as the Jewish Holocaust.
Um, I don't know what to respond to that. Our President is like Hitler now!?!
there's just no place to go with a comment like that.
Now gays in america are experiencing the same as the Jewish Holocaust.
23
@21 it is interesting to everyone what you choose to latch onto. It's like in your head you're thinking "Okay, they made some really good points that totally dispute what I was saying and make a lot of sense, so I will just take their words, twist them around, make them sound like an asshole and then I can think that I am in the right again!"
Go back and read posts:
@10
@11
@14
and find a response with value, an actual rebutle. And even go back and read that post in which all you latched onto was the name "Hitler" and dispute the actual recall to history and remember how we, as Americans, don't like repeating the bad shit just with a different victim.
Go back and read posts:
@10
@11
@14
and find a response with value, an actual rebutle. And even go back and read that post in which all you latched onto was the name "Hitler" and dispute the actual recall to history and remember how we, as Americans, don't like repeating the bad shit just with a different victim.
24
"It doesn't make it "extra illegal" to punch a fag"
I would beg to differ. If you're getting a harsher penalty due to a statute, it is certainly extra.
I would beg to differ. If you're getting a harsher penalty due to a statute, it is certainly extra.
25
@19 & 20 Not only did the Nazis put the homos in the camps, Paragraph 175 of the German Penal Code was recognized as valid by the Allies so all the pink triangles left the camps to go to jail after the war. The Nazi era law was not changed until 1969.
Things are better but so many of us expect the President to be the same as the Candidate. O well, I thought Bill Clinton was going to be there for us too.
Things are better but so many of us expect the President to be the same as the Candidate. O well, I thought Bill Clinton was going to be there for us too.
26
21
As usual your taking things out of context, I don't know why I'm ever surprised. Are you in such a hurry that you don't actually read what is written? Perhaps, you like to continue in your predetermined bias? Perhaps you missed the lecture in your World History class? Vince did not compare Obama to Hitler. You owe him an appology.
And, because you either never learned it or you have clearly forgotten it. Here is your history lesson for the day, complements of http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/focu…
After taking power in 1933, the Nazis persecuted homosexuals as part of their so-called moral crusade to racially and culturally purify Germany. This persecution ranged from dissolution of homosexual organizations to internment of thousands of individuals in concentration camps. Gay men, in particular, were subject to harassment, arrest, incarceration, and even castration. In Nazi eyes, gay men were weak and unfit to be soldiers, as well as unlikely to have children and thereby contribute to the racial struggle for Aryan dominance.
You only appear the fool, when insist that only African Americans, or any group you have decided to bestow your favor upon, understand what it is like to be treated and viewed as second class citizens, to those of us who are trying to extend you grace. To the rest, I fear you only look prejudiced, bigoted, and mean.
As usual your taking things out of context, I don't know why I'm ever surprised. Are you in such a hurry that you don't actually read what is written? Perhaps, you like to continue in your predetermined bias? Perhaps you missed the lecture in your World History class? Vince did not compare Obama to Hitler. You owe him an appology.
And, because you either never learned it or you have clearly forgotten it. Here is your history lesson for the day, complements of http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/focu…
After taking power in 1933, the Nazis persecuted homosexuals as part of their so-called moral crusade to racially and culturally purify Germany. This persecution ranged from dissolution of homosexual organizations to internment of thousands of individuals in concentration camps. Gay men, in particular, were subject to harassment, arrest, incarceration, and even castration. In Nazi eyes, gay men were weak and unfit to be soldiers, as well as unlikely to have children and thereby contribute to the racial struggle for Aryan dominance.
You only appear the fool, when insist that only African Americans, or any group you have decided to bestow your favor upon, understand what it is like to be treated and viewed as second class citizens, to those of us who are trying to extend you grace. To the rest, I fear you only look prejudiced, bigoted, and mean.
27
# 21 I in NO way compared Obama to Hitler. The part I didn't write ( I was in a hurry and assumed everyone would know) is: inflation in the Weimar Republic in the 1920 s and the depression brought Hitler to power. BECAUSE of the hard economic times, it proved very easy for Hitler to demonize the Jews - and we all know how that played out. You had made the point that it was "selfish " to work for human rights in hard economic times - I made a counter point that, in hard economic times, it is even MORE important to work to protect human rights. Dan Savage is not "selfish" to work for rights for the GLBT community.
29
Obama isn't doing shit because he knows we can "wait". He knows that politically, cause of our silence and the lack of spine by the "leaders" of the community (and the fact that most gays are dems and that ain't gonna change) he can put us on the back burner. The only way to get his attention and that of other politicians (including many local ones) is to be extremely noisy. The founders of this country didn't form the US by sitting back and waiting. Neither should we.
30
@21 how do argue or educate someone so seemingly proud of their ignorance? *sigh* here goes....
First of all, it wasn't exclusively a "Jewish Holocaust" it was crimes against humanity in the name of a very narrow definition of what was considered a superior race. Although the Jewish community had the largest visible numbers the Nazi's persecuted many in addition to the Jews including political dissidents ie. Communists, Trade Unionists, also Johovah's Witnesses. Anyone considered inferior to the Aryan race who were Polish, Slavic people, Africans, Asians, and Gypsies. Also targeted were the physically disabled, mentally retarded (no, not leotarded although perhaps they were too it's just not on record) and Homosexuals.
The physically and mentally disabled were some of the first to go because they were an affront to a society peopled by a perfect Aryan race.
The Homosexuals were also some of the earliest rounded up and sent to camps because of their failure to reproduce the Master Race as well as compromising the moral fiber of the country. In addition Homosexuality was widely believed to be contagious, something that could be caught like a cold. Because they were essentially considered traitors to the Master Race they were treated more harshly in camps being used for medical experiments and tortured. Those who survived the experiments were disfigured. They were often beaten to death by other prisoners, or used for target practice by the SS who would aim for the Pink Triangle worn on the chest. After the war the treatment of Homosexuals was not recognized by the Allies and many found themselves released from the camp only to be thrown in prison as Homosexuality was considered a crime.
So, yeah, the same shit that is being spouted off towards Homosexuals in 21st century America is the same rhetoric that was being tossed around in Nazi Germany 80yrs ago.
You and the Fundies love to beat your chest, bleat and bray how America is the greatest country in the world. Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness yet are only too happy to wipe your ass with the Bill of Rights. You make America a disgusting shit-hole of a place to live and anything BUT the greatest country on earth. Liberty for who exactly? Liberty as it's doled out by the tyranny of the majority a la Prop 8?
The harsh reality is America is well and good behind the rest of the industrialized world when it comes to human rights. While other nations have passed laws to protect their citizens in America there is DOMA, DADT, and amending state Constitutions to take away Rights instead of grant them.
Iceland just elected a Prime Minister who is openly a Lesbian. Over 10yrs ago New Zealand elected a Transgenderd person to their Parliament. Ya, Iceland, and New-Fucking-Zealand.
So before you're quick to say how Mr Savage and the rest of us are whining about wanting our rights enshrined like everyone else, like you have your rights enshrined in the Constitution remember it is not that long ago Gay people were being thrown in prison for being who they are. Gay and Transgender people are being targeted and murdered in this country for no other reason than because of who they are.
So while you want to sit back and spout your Bible, hate is still hate regardless of whether or not it is wrapped up inthe word of the Lord.
More...
First of all, it wasn't exclusively a "Jewish Holocaust" it was crimes against humanity in the name of a very narrow definition of what was considered a superior race. Although the Jewish community had the largest visible numbers the Nazi's persecuted many in addition to the Jews including political dissidents ie. Communists, Trade Unionists, also Johovah's Witnesses. Anyone considered inferior to the Aryan race who were Polish, Slavic people, Africans, Asians, and Gypsies. Also targeted were the physically disabled, mentally retarded (no, not leotarded although perhaps they were too it's just not on record) and Homosexuals.
The physically and mentally disabled were some of the first to go because they were an affront to a society peopled by a perfect Aryan race.
The Homosexuals were also some of the earliest rounded up and sent to camps because of their failure to reproduce the Master Race as well as compromising the moral fiber of the country. In addition Homosexuality was widely believed to be contagious, something that could be caught like a cold. Because they were essentially considered traitors to the Master Race they were treated more harshly in camps being used for medical experiments and tortured. Those who survived the experiments were disfigured. They were often beaten to death by other prisoners, or used for target practice by the SS who would aim for the Pink Triangle worn on the chest. After the war the treatment of Homosexuals was not recognized by the Allies and many found themselves released from the camp only to be thrown in prison as Homosexuality was considered a crime.
So, yeah, the same shit that is being spouted off towards Homosexuals in 21st century America is the same rhetoric that was being tossed around in Nazi Germany 80yrs ago.
You and the Fundies love to beat your chest, bleat and bray how America is the greatest country in the world. Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness yet are only too happy to wipe your ass with the Bill of Rights. You make America a disgusting shit-hole of a place to live and anything BUT the greatest country on earth. Liberty for who exactly? Liberty as it's doled out by the tyranny of the majority a la Prop 8?
The harsh reality is America is well and good behind the rest of the industrialized world when it comes to human rights. While other nations have passed laws to protect their citizens in America there is DOMA, DADT, and amending state Constitutions to take away Rights instead of grant them.
Iceland just elected a Prime Minister who is openly a Lesbian. Over 10yrs ago New Zealand elected a Transgenderd person to their Parliament. Ya, Iceland, and New-Fucking-Zealand.
So before you're quick to say how Mr Savage and the rest of us are whining about wanting our rights enshrined like everyone else, like you have your rights enshrined in the Constitution remember it is not that long ago Gay people were being thrown in prison for being who they are. Gay and Transgender people are being targeted and murdered in this country for no other reason than because of who they are.
So while you want to sit back and spout your Bible, hate is still hate regardless of whether or not it is wrapped up inthe word of the Lord.
31
Of interest on LGBT rights worldwide: check out this link. One can acquire a coloured map demonstrating graphically how far one's country has to go. Or how much one's country supports LGBT rights in law.
http://www.ilga.org/news_results.asp?Lan…
Ok - If this link doesn't work, Google ILGA; click on news; and the first document on that page , LGBTI rights in the world has contains the maps.
http://www.ilga.org/news_results.asp?Lan…
Ok - If this link doesn't work, Google ILGA; click on news; and the first document on that page , LGBTI rights in the world has contains the maps.
32
27 Theo, where are the concentration camps for homosexuals in this country?
Where are homosexuals being arrested in this country?
Let me help you, NO WHERE.
And lastly don't you think it does a disservice to homosexuals here for you to be throwing in the name Hitler on a thread that's about our President, don't you think it makes you look foolish and just basically trying to conflate the two, if that wasn't really your intention?
Where are homosexuals being arrested in this country?
Let me help you, NO WHERE.
And lastly don't you think it does a disservice to homosexuals here for you to be throwing in the name Hitler on a thread that's about our President, don't you think it makes you look foolish and just basically trying to conflate the two, if that wasn't really your intention?
33
32,
Um, where and when did Theo say their were concentration camps for homosexuals in this country?
Where did Theo say homosexuals were being arrested?
Let me help you, NO WHERE.
YOU'RE, taking things out of context. YOU, are the one trying to conflate the two. AND, instead of having enough personal integrity to acknowledge that Theo clearly stated that he was not conflating the two, he was addessing your postion that it is selfish to consider the civil rights of others in our present economic crisis.
His words: "You had made the point that it was "selfish " to work for human rights in hard economic times - I made a counter point that, in hard economic times, it is even MORE important to work to protect human rights."
Sorry, he isn't the one who is acting foolish. Try reading what is actually written, as opposed to what you want to believe is written there.
Um, where and when did Theo say their were concentration camps for homosexuals in this country?
Where did Theo say homosexuals were being arrested?
Let me help you, NO WHERE.
YOU'RE, taking things out of context. YOU, are the one trying to conflate the two. AND, instead of having enough personal integrity to acknowledge that Theo clearly stated that he was not conflating the two, he was addessing your postion that it is selfish to consider the civil rights of others in our present economic crisis.
His words: "You had made the point that it was "selfish " to work for human rights in hard economic times - I made a counter point that, in hard economic times, it is even MORE important to work to protect human rights."
Sorry, he isn't the one who is acting foolish. Try reading what is actually written, as opposed to what you want to believe is written there.
34
32
Kim is correct, LC you are confused. Go back and read Theo's post he said nothing of the sort. You are twisting the information from my post to put words in his mouth.
I tried to give you a bit of a history lesson. Let me spell it out for you. It is within the lifetime of people today who remember when people were being thrown in jail for being gay. While it is no longer illegal to be gay people are still being persecuted for it, and you don't need to be in a camp for that to happen. There are decades of history in the not too distant past to remind us all of just how fragile our well fought for rights truly are, and it scares me. When I see Amendments being added to a state Constitution to take away rights instead of grant them it scares me.
Kim is correct, LC you are confused. Go back and read Theo's post he said nothing of the sort. You are twisting the information from my post to put words in his mouth.
I tried to give you a bit of a history lesson. Let me spell it out for you. It is within the lifetime of people today who remember when people were being thrown in jail for being gay. While it is no longer illegal to be gay people are still being persecuted for it, and you don't need to be in a camp for that to happen. There are decades of history in the not too distant past to remind us all of just how fragile our well fought for rights truly are, and it scares me. When I see Amendments being added to a state Constitution to take away rights instead of grant them it scares me.
35
I expect two things from Obama for gays:
1) Preventing the government, including the military, from firing people just for being gay. This is a fundamental and basic right that is appallingly lacking today, and the vast majority of Americans agree, even with the military.
2) The Federal govt has to recognize marriage performed and recognized by the states. They do this for all marriages, and are required to by the 14th Amendment and the Full Faith and Credit Clause. This means altering DOMA to recognize marriages in the 6 states and now DC who recognize gay couples as legally married and equal under the law. This means joint taxes, Social Security survivor benefits, and treating married gay Federal employees the same as straight ones, including in the military.
1) Preventing the government, including the military, from firing people just for being gay. This is a fundamental and basic right that is appallingly lacking today, and the vast majority of Americans agree, even with the military.
2) The Federal govt has to recognize marriage performed and recognized by the states. They do this for all marriages, and are required to by the 14th Amendment and the Full Faith and Credit Clause. This means altering DOMA to recognize marriages in the 6 states and now DC who recognize gay couples as legally married and equal under the law. This means joint taxes, Social Security survivor benefits, and treating married gay Federal employees the same as straight ones, including in the military.
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