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News & ArtsThursday, June 4, 2009
Sex "A rope was attached to his neck and also to his penis."
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 4:57 PM
So it's looking pretty definite that David Carradine died pleasuring himself—and in an ill-advised, highly dangerous manner, but still... he died pursuing some fleeting sexual pleasure.
Actor David Carradine, star of the Kill Bill movies and and Kung Fu TV series, has been found dead naked after reports claiming an apparent sex act went wrong - similar to how INXS singer Michael Hutchence died....But police sources have told The Sun in London that Carradine may have died after he attempted an erotic asphyxiation act when he wrapped a cord around his neck. A police officer said: "A rope was attached to his neck and also to his penis."
Lieutenant Colonel Pirom did confirm the rope was connected to his neck and other parts of his body.
When the news first broke, no one hesitated to label Carradine a suicide. Now that more info has emerged and it seems clear that Carradine died during "an erotic asphyxiation act"—masturbating while depriving himself of oxygen (which is a highly dangerous thing to do)—people are saying it's rude to speculate, leave the man alone, have a little respect. But no one objected when people were saying that he killed himself. There was nothing rude about labeling the man a suicide, nothing disrespectful about leaping to the conclusion that Carradine was in so much despair that he took his own life.
So it's worse somehow that his death was accidental? That he didn't mean to kill himself? That he died happy?
1
I'm with you on this one, Dan. An accident is way better than suicide, and he was probably quite happy at the time. It sucks for his family, but this is still better than him hanging himself in despair.
3
What do you bet that even with this stuff coming out, the general mainstream story will be suicide? I don't get it either, that people think it's a better thing for him to have been so despondent that he took himself out of this world intentionally, than for him to have made a mistake and suffered an accidental death.
4
You know, I think columns like Savage Love have gone a long ways towards taking the shame and tawdry associations out of stories like this. People die in all kinds of ways, but we don't have to morally punish them when it happens during a sex act.
5
You know, I think columns like Savage Love have gone a long ways towards taking the shame and tawdry associations out of stories like this. People die in all kinds of ways, but we don't have to morally punish them when it happens during a sex act.
7
I would rather have it said that I offed myself than have it printed everywhere that I was whacking off with a crude noose around my throat. Maybe that's just me...?
8
@4 (and 5 for that matter) I fully agree. My mind has certainly been pried open after listening to hundreds of podcasts. I would definitely say, in this case especially, that accident is much better than suicide.
9
Suicide is perhaps cowardly or shameful, but it is more dignified. When you kill yourself, you go into it knowing they are going to find you and they are going to know what you did. but you choose to do it anyway.
Nobody is supposed to know you're into erotic asphyxiation and you do it with the hope and expectation that you won't screw up and get caught.
Nobody is supposed to know you're into erotic asphyxiation and you do it with the hope and expectation that you won't screw up and get caught.
10
David Carridine was 72, I think it was said. Is there any evidence, anecdotal or not, that older people may use kinkier forms of stimulation than they used to use to get themselves to orgasm, due to decreased sexual response?
11
Also, turning it around, this is a state that has voted in assisted suicide by a physician, implying that people want control over their own demise and that there's less of a stigma about *that*...
So why is the idea that Mr. Carradine might have said, "fuck it, that's enough of this shit" for whatever reason, one night in Bangkok, so much worse than the idea that he accidentally choked off too much while trussed to his own schlong?
So why is the idea that Mr. Carradine might have said, "fuck it, that's enough of this shit" for whatever reason, one night in Bangkok, so much worse than the idea that he accidentally choked off too much while trussed to his own schlong?
12
@9 Suicide is dignified in theory, rarely in execution. It's messy, it's traumatic for those who find one, even worse in those suicide-by-cop situations or suicide-by-walking-into-semi. The only thing that allows it dignity is that we avoid all discussion of the tawdry parts - the blood, the crap, the body parts...
13
Well, the "suicide" version of this is that he committed suicide naked in a closet with rope around more than his neck. So, not much better, is it? Not exactly "dignified"...not that suicide really ever is. And I still think the general message when this happens and it's insisted to be a suicide is that people would rather think of someone as hopeless and in terrible pain instead of as kinky with bad planning skills. I still don't get that.
14
So it sounds like the best thing about being outed as an auto-asphyxiation enthusiast is never having to feel ashamed.
15
If he's choking himself alone in his hotel room, it means that he's an idiot.
If he kills himself it means that depressed.
I'd rather be depressed than flagrantly negligent toward my own safety. The guy was a millionaire in Thailand. I'm sure there would have been plenty of prostitutes that would have been happy to spot him. A hooker could have saved him.
Well, the guy had a long and productive life. Good for him.
If he kills himself it means that depressed.
I'd rather be depressed than flagrantly negligent toward my own safety. The guy was a millionaire in Thailand. I'm sure there would have been plenty of prostitutes that would have been happy to spot him. A hooker could have saved him.
Well, the guy had a long and productive life. Good for him.
16
This is probably one of the best examples of a death that can truly be called "Death by Misadventure".
17
Either that was one hell of a closet or he was a dwarf. I still have my reservations about the whole rope in the penis thing, I fail to see how that would play in the erotic asphyxiation thing. This just looks like a plain old suicide.
18
How does the rope round the penis part work? There are no lungs in the testies, or is he just uber kinky.
19
Maybe he was using it as a makeshift cockring? I don't know...
I thought the same thing about why the media finds it so much more acceptable to report it as a suicide than as autoerotic asphyxiation.
I thought the same thing about why the media finds it so much more acceptable to report it as a suicide than as autoerotic asphyxiation.
25
I doubt he died happy. He probably died thinking "goddammit" or "fuck, fuck, fuck" The whole actually dieing sort of takes the erotic charge away I would think.
It's not like people who die while parachuting for fun die happy when their chute fails. Just because it was fun thirty seconds before you died doesn't mean it was fun right there at the end.
It's not like people who die while parachuting for fun die happy when their chute fails. Just because it was fun thirty seconds before you died doesn't mean it was fun right there at the end.
26
I personally believe that hotel curtains have evolved and learned to use their strings in combat. These hotel blinds surely were kung fu masters. Carradine fought to the death, but ultimately the curtains won.
That's how I'm going to remember the master going out.
28
I am under the belief that our sex lives are private unless we choose otherwise.
Let's say it was an accident and leave it at that.
Let's say it was an accident and leave it at that.
31
I think it's sad that this type of incident becomes a joke. It was tragic when he was a suicide, but the sex aspect lends kind of a "tee hee, what a weirdo idiot" aspect to the whole situation. His death becomes not a tragedy, not an accident - but a joke.
34
Wow, what a tough question to pose: masturbation misadventure vs suicide. Gosh, let me think on that for awhile. What a puzzler.
I tend to think a gang of Thai hipsters forced him at gunpoint to read Savage Love columns for six hours. Then they left.
I tend to think a gang of Thai hipsters forced him at gunpoint to read Savage Love columns for six hours. Then they left.
35
He could have had a heart attack (or blew a vessel in his brain) and collapsed 'into the' noose.
It's a sad loss.
It's a sad loss.
36
#18 - It is a widespread belief that if you tie the rope around your junk, loop it over a railing and then tie the other end around your neck it creates a kind of safety catch. The theory is that if you pass out and fall backward, the rope will tug on your manparts which will cause you to wake up.
37
Wouldn't it actually be a kind of public service to have this publicized as what it is? Don't teenaged boys die like this because they genuinely don't realize it's dangerous? At least that's what I've heard. That's one good thing that could come out of this, though I agree with the person who said that the main stream media will continue to report this as a suicide or accident only.
39
Kwai Chang Caine: Master, what is the best way to meet the loss of one we love?
Kahn: By knowing when we truly love, it is never lost. It is only after death that the depth of the bond is truly felt. And our loved one becomes more a part of us then was possible in life.
Kwai Chang Caine: Are we only able to feel this toward those whom we have known and loved a long time?
Kahn: Sometimes, a stranger known to us for moments can spark our souls to kinship for eternity.
Kwai Chang Caine: How can strangers take on such importance to our souls?
Kahn: Because our soul does not keep time. It merely records growth.
Kahn: By knowing when we truly love, it is never lost. It is only after death that the depth of the bond is truly felt. And our loved one becomes more a part of us then was possible in life.
Kwai Chang Caine: Are we only able to feel this toward those whom we have known and loved a long time?
Kahn: Sometimes, a stranger known to us for moments can spark our souls to kinship for eternity.
Kwai Chang Caine: How can strangers take on such importance to our souls?
Kahn: Because our soul does not keep time. It merely records growth.
41
So, it's curtains for David Carradine!
On a more serious note, there shouold be some kind of PSA for this sort of thing. When I was in 8th grade (1987) a 7th grader died in this way, or at least that's what got around the school. I don't think Jr. high kids could have made this up before Savage Love.
On a more serious note, there shouold be some kind of PSA for this sort of thing. When I was in 8th grade (1987) a 7th grader died in this way, or at least that's what got around the school. I don't think Jr. high kids could have made this up before Savage Love.
42
The mainstream teevee reporters (Today show's, at least) are calling it accidental, per the Thai authorities.
43
It's sad. It's not my thing, but obviously people are not going to stop with this practice. You'd think someone would make some sort of safety device for people. (Who knows? Maybe they have.) I've seen cat collars that have a break away buckles in case the feline hooks it's collar on something while jumping. It only releases under the full weight of the cat. Would a similar device work for people?
44
Also, I want to add. If I had to choose between suicide out of depression, or in some edgy sexually charged scandalous way, I'll take the latter. We're all going to die anyway. The guy was 72. I'm sorry that this happened to him, but really, he had a good run. I hope I'm still doing crazy sexual stuff (Erotic asphyxiation isn't my thing.) if I make it to his age. Yes, it's sad, but still, it's an interesting way to go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuOB0hVOO…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuOB0hVOO…
45
The embarrassment of this isn't that it was sexual, it's that it was insanely stupid.
I'd much rather people think I killed myself intentionally because I was depressed or in pain, than that I killed myself unintentionally because I was too stupid to figure out how to perform a sex act safely.
I'd much rather people think I killed myself intentionally because I was depressed or in pain, than that I killed myself unintentionally because I was too stupid to figure out how to perform a sex act safely.
46
I'm going to invent a neologism: suiccident.
Maybe it was because he was feeling suicidally depressed that he was willing to risk his life for a brief moment of intensified pleasure. If he was feeling happy and optimistic that he had a few more good years left, he probably would have taken better safety precautions. Perhaps his attitude was, fuck it, I'm 72, what have I got to lose at this point?
Maybe it was because he was feeling suicidally depressed that he was willing to risk his life for a brief moment of intensified pleasure. If he was feeling happy and optimistic that he had a few more good years left, he probably would have taken better safety precautions. Perhaps his attitude was, fuck it, I'm 72, what have I got to lose at this point?
47
Maybe it was a training accident. I heard he was training for a new movie coming out in 2011, where Grasshopper dilligently learns the ancient methods of Shibari from a Thai hooker.
48
45 has a valid point, and this is not the first time Dan has brought up a story like this one. And the plot is the same. Someone wants to engage in risky sexual behavior. There is no minder. Something goes horribly wrong. That person is no longer amongst us.
It seems to have been an accident, whose moral is PLAY SAFE whatever you do.
It seems to have been an accident, whose moral is PLAY SAFE whatever you do.
49
I went back to this thread today to see if there have been any comments about reports that his hands were tied behind his back. Now I'm concerned about the accuracy of the reporting here, all around, and will go back to "skeptical mode" on everything I read. Let's wait to see what finally comes out - he deserves that much.
50
With any type of asphyxiation play, whether sexual or not, a lot of people pass out. I remember as a kid, other kids hyperventilating, then holding their breath while a friend picked them up around the waist and sqeezed them, until they felt faint. Sometimes, they'd pass out for a minute or two. It wasn't sexual, it was a sort of high. This was before elementary school kids were using street drugs....
Carradine likely had done this before, passed out, and woke up a few minutes later. This time he didn't wake up. The sex thing, in this case, is nothing compared to some of the other sexual stuff people talk about at parties. As for "finding someone dead, with their body purged", etc....it's gonna happen eventually to us all.
If he died feeling good, what more could someone ask for? If he died in panic, that's horrifying.
Whether it was sexual or not is irrelevant.
People need to grow up about their attitudes toward sex.
Carradine likely had done this before, passed out, and woke up a few minutes later. This time he didn't wake up. The sex thing, in this case, is nothing compared to some of the other sexual stuff people talk about at parties. As for "finding someone dead, with their body purged", etc....it's gonna happen eventually to us all.
If he died feeling good, what more could someone ask for? If he died in panic, that's horrifying.
Whether it was sexual or not is irrelevant.
People need to grow up about their attitudes toward sex.
51
has anyone else considered the panicked hooker theory?
"oh shit, i just killed bill, i'm fucking outta here"
i like to think that by age 72, i'd know better than to do this alone. duh.
"oh shit, i just killed bill, i'm fucking outta here"
i like to think that by age 72, i'd know better than to do this alone. duh.
52
An accidental death is much better for the beneficiary of a life insurance policy than a suicide is.
But it is long past time that Surgeon General ought to deal with depression as a health condition which leads to a suicide rate double the homicide rate, and which also contributes significantly to homicide rate, substance abuse, rates of incarceration, a reduction in workforce productivity, and errors in judgment leading to accidental death and injuries.
But it is long past time that Surgeon General ought to deal with depression as a health condition which leads to a suicide rate double the homicide rate, and which also contributes significantly to homicide rate, substance abuse, rates of incarceration, a reduction in workforce productivity, and errors in judgment leading to accidental death and injuries.
57
personally,i feel that Mr Carradines death, because of the way he was found, the media respectfully should keep his death quiet, because we still dont really know the truth about what really happened. anyway, if you were found tied up like this , would you want people to remember you this way especially his family. personally, some death cases should be held quiet from the public at least that's my opinion, end of story!
Dave
Dave
58
It's hard to discuss such an awful death. I'd better say what I really loved. He was so excellent as Woody Guthrie , although Carradine was actually a better singer than Guthrie and didn't sound much like him, still it's a great performance.
59
It is a very sad event in deed anytime someone who just wanted to get off that ends up dieing as a result is very sad to hear about. I hope he is laughing in heaven about this little mishap and reflecting more upon his legacy as a great actor and martial artist.
60
It is a very sad event in deed anytime someone who just wanted to get off that ends up dieing as a result is very sad to hear about. I hope he is laughing in heaven about this little mishap and reflecting more upon his legacy as a great actor and martial artist.
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