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News & ArtsMonday, June 1, 2009
Savage Love Savage Love Letter of the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 3:54 PM
After dating a wonderful man for 2 ½ years, we are about to get engaged. I love our GGG relationship: great sex, great fun, great communication, similar dreams and goals, etc. This man is respectful, caring, honest and kind. That’s why I’m shocked that he received a lap dance last weekend during his “guy’s night out” (which I condone and encourage). Not being a fan of such places, he went along with it in the spirit of having fun. At the end of the night, after being repeatedly pressured to get one, he finally consented to the lap dance after one friend offered to pay for it. I’m not upset that he went to a strip club; it’s the lap dance that I have a problem with.I am an enlightened, mature, sensible woman and an long-time follower of your column/podcast. As such, I am shocked that this hurts so much. He said, “I thought of you before I did it, and I truly didn’t think you’d mind.” After crying my eyes out, and telling him how hurt and disgusted I am, he’s apologized profusely and sworn to never do it again. Of course, he said “it meant nothing.” I want to forgive him… but I just can’t get the image of him with a nearly naked woman writhing all over his body out of my head. How can such an intimate, highly sexually charged encounter not constitute cheating?
Lap Dance Cheater?
First the good news: He didn't cheat on you with that dancer. Because he didn't stick his dick in her. Because it was a commercial transaction. Because it was just a freakin' lap dance, LDC. And if I may briefly dehumanize all the lap dancers out there (and some of my good friends are lap dancers): a lap dance is three-dimensional, animatronic porn. Nothing more. When your boyfriend tells you it meant nothing to him, LDC, he's telling you the truth. She meant nothing to him, he meant nothing to her, and nothing really happened. Chill about the dancer.
Now the bad news: he did cheat on you—just not with the person you're so worked up about. He cheated on you with his buddies. Your boyfriend shared an erotically charged moment with his male friends, not with that dancer. Your boyfriend had a homoerotic experience—but one laundered through a female dancer so that the guys could enjoy it without having cop to what was actually going on.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
And I'm not saying that your boyfriend's straight male friends want to do him or that he wants to do them or that he's going to convert to Nadalism or that your boyfriend and his buddies would've been giving each other lap dances if they weren't such cowards. They needed to have a woman there to launder their homoerotic experience because... they're not homos. But everything that was meaningful about the experience passed between your boyfriend and his male friends and not between your boyfriend and some dancer that he barely touched—have you ever seen a lap dance?—and that he's never going to see again.
And guess what? Now that he knows how you feel about lap dances, he's unlikely to risk getting one ever again. Forgive him. Forget it.
1
Insecurity = jealousy = disaster.
I'm sorry, LDC, but you need to consider your own issues with this. He responded lovingly and desperately; he sounds really sorry.
Is the image you can't get out your head the notion of your guy responding to somebody PRETTIER than you? Or is it upsetting you that a nasty slut was up on him?
The answer might be with your predispositions/opinions about the scenario.
Think about it. Good luck.
I'm sorry, LDC, but you need to consider your own issues with this. He responded lovingly and desperately; he sounds really sorry.
Is the image you can't get out your head the notion of your guy responding to somebody PRETTIER than you? Or is it upsetting you that a nasty slut was up on him?
The answer might be with your predispositions/opinions about the scenario.
Think about it. Good luck.
4
Dan where was the "When you *CONDONED* (not just permitted) going to a strip club with his buddies, what the fuck did you THINK was going to happen? You had to know there was like a 50% or better chance of him getting a lapdance."
IMHO she should STFU.
IMHO she should STFU.
6
I think next step in this relationship is to define boundaries. You explain to him what you would consider cheating and why, and he does the same back. You find some common ground that you can both agree on, and neither of you does what you both consider cheating.
Even Dan got the cheating bit sort of wrong. While cheating is sort of defined by the at-large culture, everyone has to define it more specifically for themselves and their partner in each relationship they're in.
In contrast to this case, a swinging couple wouldn't consider penetrative sex (or a lap dance) outside marriage to be cheating, but maybe they would consider maintaining a romantic relationship outside marriage cheating.
Even Dan got the cheating bit sort of wrong. While cheating is sort of defined by the at-large culture, everyone has to define it more specifically for themselves and their partner in each relationship they're in.
In contrast to this case, a swinging couple wouldn't consider penetrative sex (or a lap dance) outside marriage to be cheating, but maybe they would consider maintaining a romantic relationship outside marriage cheating.
7
Poor guy, this girl is a jealous psycho. He needs to dump her and find a girl who doesn't care about the occasional lap dance. Better yet, find a girl who will go with you to a titty bar. Or start dating a stripper. Anything is better than this harpy.
8
YOU are the one with the issue, you "enlightened, mature, sensible woman". why did he apologize to you? so you would STFU. whereas he probably never used to think about it, i bet he WANTS to go get a lap dance really bad now.
9
Does it make a difference whether it was a standard run-of-the-mill lap dance or whether it was a "to completion" lap dance? I personally wouldn't have a problem with the former, but would be at least a little bothered (though not to the point of crying my eyes out) by the latter...
10
i think the consensus is that she should forgive him and on top of that go with him the strip club. maybe she'll enjoy seeing what gets her fiancee off more and start incorporating that into their foreplay.
11
She gives her guy her OK to go to a strip club, then freaks out when normal strip club behavior occurs. She is not GGG.
13
uh, it sounds like someone forgot to take her meds...HE needs to think about reevaluating this relationship if she falls apart over something so stupid.
14
The problem is that she didn't want him to go but wasn't willing to say what she wanted - hoping he would choose to do what she hadn't told him.
Guys are pretty direct - if you say it's ok to go, we assume you mean it. We don't think about what you really mean. Ever.
Guys are pretty direct - if you say it's ok to go, we assume you mean it. We don't think about what you really mean. Ever.
17
I wouldn't say that she's nuts, I just think that she doesn't understand. Crazy, no, woman, yes. GGG means between her and him, not between him and stripper. Did she overreact? Yes. Is she human? Fuck yeah. Would a lot of guys have reacted in a similar way were the rolls reversed (her and a male stripper) fuck yeah they would have.
The big problem here, their lack of communication. Surely in her mind she is thinking "he should have just known that I wouldn't be okay with that." MISTAKE NUMBER ONE!! Never assume that anyone "just knows" just come out and fucking lay the ground work beforehand.
I agree that she should just go with him to the strip club. Get a lap dance herself maybe ... fucking A, she how entirely NOT INTIMATE they are.
The big problem here, their lack of communication. Surely in her mind she is thinking "he should have just known that I wouldn't be okay with that." MISTAKE NUMBER ONE!! Never assume that anyone "just knows" just come out and fucking lay the ground work beforehand.
I agree that she should just go with him to the strip club. Get a lap dance herself maybe ... fucking A, she how entirely NOT INTIMATE they are.
18
Yeah, get over it. I can see how you might be really bugged obsessing about another woman being all over him, but she was a *stripper.* She did it for money and didn't think another second about him afterwards, guaranteed.
You love him a lot and your relationship is fantastic, so you need to balance that against your wounded feelings. Your weepy breakdown was totally unwarranted yet he apologized anyway, evidently with complete sincerity when other men would just call you crazy. Just let the man be.
You love him a lot and your relationship is fantastic, so you need to balance that against your wounded feelings. Your weepy breakdown was totally unwarranted yet he apologized anyway, evidently with complete sincerity when other men would just call you crazy. Just let the man be.
19
Way to act like a jealous psycho there luvie.
Let me give you the drill. He probably really wanted to shag the girl; and she was probably really hot. I'm betting hotter than you by the way you describe yourself ("mature, sensible"? mmmm, I bet all that maturity and good sense really gets his blood pumping). But he didn't shag her and never would, because she probably finds your man icky and wouldn't touch him with a ten foot barge pole, and because he loves you and isn't going to actually cheat on you. He's just going to do what all non-cheating guys do - fantasize about it occasionally, and even more occasionally, stray close to the line without crossing it (flirting, ogling, lap-dances etc). You can ignore it or accept it, but you can't, and shouldn't try to, stop it.
If you really can't suppress your jeolousy, just tell him that if he ever wants to go to a strip club, have the decency to keep it to himself.
Let me give you the drill. He probably really wanted to shag the girl; and she was probably really hot. I'm betting hotter than you by the way you describe yourself ("mature, sensible"? mmmm, I bet all that maturity and good sense really gets his blood pumping). But he didn't shag her and never would, because she probably finds your man icky and wouldn't touch him with a ten foot barge pole, and because he loves you and isn't going to actually cheat on you. He's just going to do what all non-cheating guys do - fantasize about it occasionally, and even more occasionally, stray close to the line without crossing it (flirting, ogling, lap-dances etc). You can ignore it or accept it, but you can't, and shouldn't try to, stop it.
If you really can't suppress your jeolousy, just tell him that if he ever wants to go to a strip club, have the decency to keep it to himself.
22
this chick is a nightmare. what an idiot. has she ever even been to a strip club? give me a break. i feel sorry for this guy. and i'm a married woman. don't you have anything more interesting to post? this is emblematic of the stranger overall. definitely 10 years ago and repeating itself over and over.
23
Maybe she just doesn't understand what typically goes on with most lap dances (i.e, what she imagines happens in a lap dance is different that what actually usually happens). That's a possibility... Maybe I'm giving her too much credit, but that was my first thought.
24
she said she condoned him going, so it's only natural that he'd assume that she was okay with standard strip club behavior. i'd say this is her issue. like dan said, this is 3d porn. i'd disagree with his cheating with his buddies or whathaveyou, i don't know what the fuck that's about. he got a lap dance. you got jealous. deal.
25
Dan - The "guy bonding" thing is interesting but a bit of a stretch here, don't you think? Thats not cheating - its just one of tons of activities guys do to feel like part of the herd. I would think you'd come down on her hypocracy for claiming to be GGG and then freaking out about a silly dance.
26
This chick is generally normal. LDC, I've been to a fair number of strip clubs with buddies, and you really have not much to worry about unless your guy likes his women with lots of glitter and severe daddy issues. And other guys funk all over them. Strippers are generally better in theory than practice. Most guys get that. And it's very much not even remotely an emotional experience for all but the most emotionally retarded guys, and your guy doesn't sound like that. It was an emotional experience for you, he said he won't do it again, so you need to get over it.
27
Where in god's name do you get the 'homoerotic experience' nonsense? Don't project that when there's absolutely nothing but your OWN, gay, experience to speak from. Look, I'd love to think that my girlfriend's girls-nights-out are all about them secretly having lesbian tendencies just aching to come out, but that doesn't make it REAL.
There are in fact men out here, and maybe you don't know us or believe us, who happen to like naked women and who aren't afraid to indulge that preference in front of whomever. And unlike your really, really odd assessment, we do it BECAUSE WE LIKE NAKED WOMEN. I'd edit the hell out of this stupid response. You come across as pretty unknowledgeable once you start projecting your straight-guys-are-really-just-like-me fantasy.
There are in fact men out here, and maybe you don't know us or believe us, who happen to like naked women and who aren't afraid to indulge that preference in front of whomever. And unlike your really, really odd assessment, we do it BECAUSE WE LIKE NAKED WOMEN. I'd edit the hell out of this stupid response. You come across as pretty unknowledgeable once you start projecting your straight-guys-are-really-just-like-me fantasy.
28
Wait, wait. You "condoned" him going to a stripper bar with his buddies, where everyone over the age of 12 knows they do lap dances. And then you freak out when he actually, you know, gets a lap dance? What? Did you think they were going to a prayer meeting in there or something? WTF?
If him getting a lap dance bothers you, then the next time he asks if he can go to a stripper bar with his buddies, say "no".
If him getting a lap dance bothers you, then the next time he asks if he can go to a stripper bar with his buddies, say "no".
29
GGG is different things to different people. Mebbe for them, she is GGG for letting him go: 'cause yes, even in this day & age, there's some women who *won't* be down with going to the girlie bar.
Hey, LDC: I tended bar at a strip club for a brief period of time. Although guys might imagine the dancers think about them after it's over: 99.99% of the time = no. They just writhe around just enough to keep the cash flowing. That's it: it's their job. It's a touch naive to think that you can say it's okay to go to the strip club, but then get angry about the lap dance. That's what happens there. As long as their fly stays buttoned I'd be willing to bet most men wouldn't consider it cheating.
*shrug* I've sent pretty much every guy I was dating off to the strip club w/ a pile of singles & a smile when there was a bachelor party, etc. I guess having worked there I know what happens so trust is pretty easy. Plus hey: if they came home hot & bothered, that's good for me, too.
Hey, LDC: I tended bar at a strip club for a brief period of time. Although guys might imagine the dancers think about them after it's over: 99.99% of the time = no. They just writhe around just enough to keep the cash flowing. That's it: it's their job. It's a touch naive to think that you can say it's okay to go to the strip club, but then get angry about the lap dance. That's what happens there. As long as their fly stays buttoned I'd be willing to bet most men wouldn't consider it cheating.
*shrug* I've sent pretty much every guy I was dating off to the strip club w/ a pile of singles & a smile when there was a bachelor party, etc. I guess having worked there I know what happens so trust is pretty easy. Plus hey: if they came home hot & bothered, that's good for me, too.
30
if he "resisted" getting a lap dance for a while, then relented under peer (erotic) pressure, it sounds like he knew it would upset her.
Just because it's become the trend for middle america husbands to hit the strip clubs doesn't mean it's suddenly not cheating. If she, or most other woman (I'm including GGG relationships here) had some guy feeling them up, even if just to titillate their girlfriends, their boyfriends and husbands would be pissed!
It's a double standard that exists because women don't traditionally treat sex in the same way that men do; there isn't an equivalent strip culture for straight women.
How about if she got a job stripping? Did an amateur night with her girlfriends and sold a lap dance? Does that constitute cheating?
Just because it's become the trend for middle america husbands to hit the strip clubs doesn't mean it's suddenly not cheating. If she, or most other woman (I'm including GGG relationships here) had some guy feeling them up, even if just to titillate their girlfriends, their boyfriends and husbands would be pissed!
It's a double standard that exists because women don't traditionally treat sex in the same way that men do; there isn't an equivalent strip culture for straight women.
How about if she got a job stripping? Did an amateur night with her girlfriends and sold a lap dance? Does that constitute cheating?
32
"Condoned"? Excuse me..."condoned"? He's an adult. Adults can go and do what they please with whomever they please. They don't need permission from "mommy" anymore.
And another thing, where exactly did you plan on having your bachelorette party? I hope it wasn't at Chippendales or Thunder Down Under, sweetie. Or a gay strip club...because that would be just a tad hypocritical if you did.
And another thing, where exactly did you plan on having your bachelorette party? I hope it wasn't at Chippendales or Thunder Down Under, sweetie. Or a gay strip club...because that would be just a tad hypocritical if you did.
35
She thinks that reading Savage Love makes her enlightened, but she learnt the hard way that there is a difference between dinner party open-mindedness and real sweaty, sunday morning reality. She's not mourning her BF as much as her prudishness.
36
After all this, have to agree @17 has a good point.
But so does @34. TMI, unless she persisted in questioning him (which implies she really didn't want him to go and wasn't willing to express her true feelings).
Silent tests don't work with men. Just be upfront about stuff and we'll do fine - set invisible tests and don't tell us about them and you'll just stew all the time.
But so does @34. TMI, unless she persisted in questioning him (which implies she really didn't want him to go and wasn't willing to express her true feelings).
Silent tests don't work with men. Just be upfront about stuff and we'll do fine - set invisible tests and don't tell us about them and you'll just stew all the time.
38
I didn't read her saying she condoned the strip club but that she condones and encourages a guys night out. Clearly she just doesn't condone what the guys do on their guys night out.
39
I'm always surprised at how many women will drive away a good man with their petty jealousy. Men are not like women, but many women just can't bring themselves to be understanding about those differences. Men are designed to take an interest in more than one woman. Let him have some fun and he'll come home horny and grateful he has a woman that let's him breath. Otherwise you'll spend your life throwing tantrums over the little inconsequential things and drive away men.
40
Whoa. To the poor guy who is engaged to this woman: Run! Run far, far away. You are looking down the barrel of a lifetime of dealing with this woman's insecurities.
Also, Dan... Getting a lapdance in front of friends is homoerotic? Hardly. Project much?
Also, Dan... Getting a lapdance in front of friends is homoerotic? Hardly. Project much?
41
I think she over reacted ... but then again. In a total role reversal, I would probably over react. And it's not the lap dance, it's the fact that unlike female on men lap dances, women get to TOUCH in most states for men on women lap dances.
And to be honest, I think that would piss me off.
And to be honest, I think that would piss me off.
43
"After dating a wonderful man for 2 ½ years, we are about to get engaged."
Yeah they aren't engaged yet and judging from that letter I don't think the poor guy knows he is about to get engaged. She probably figures she has just about worn him down enough with her hen-pecking ways that he'll propose any day now
Yeah they aren't engaged yet and judging from that letter I don't think the poor guy knows he is about to get engaged. She probably figures she has just about worn him down enough with her hen-pecking ways that he'll propose any day now
44
This situation has a lot going on for it. Personally, lap dances from strange strippers are not a point of contention, and in my book, no different than a girls' night out to a club. But cheating is really about doing something outside your relationship agreement, whatever that is. In this case, there was no agreed upon prohibition of lap dances. So this is really an awkward miscommunication with both parties surprised at how upsetting it turned out to be. No one broke the rules, no one was malicious, so forgive and forget. If you can't do that, it's time to weigh how much your relationship is worth to you and if it's worth pushing past some uncomfortable and persistent mental images.
46
LDC, step out of the virgin role for a minute and embrace the whore! Talk to some friends, go to a club with some friends, figure out how to give a lap dance already. The bonus is you will have an image of you and him and not this anonymous woman.
47
"Dan - The "guy bonding" thing is interesting but a bit of a stretch here, don't you think? Thats not cheating - its just one of tons of activities guys do to feel like part of the herd."
Hey, from a straight guy, dudes watching dudes get boners is a smidge homogay, and not that there's anything wrong with that.
Hey, from a straight guy, dudes watching dudes get boners is a smidge homogay, and not that there's anything wrong with that.
49
I'm with 44 and the others who described the problem as a lack of communication about boundaries. I honestly don't think this guy felt he was cheating, even if he came home with wet sticky boxer shorts. A spouse (gay or straight) is not only a sex partner but a person that one wants to spend his or her entire life with. Whatever came from this lap dance (pun intended) was purely biological and he was goaded into it by his drunk buddies. He did not love this stripper and was not interested in sharing his life with her. I don't see it as cheating.
If this woman had said something along the lines of "Honey, I know you guys will be going someplace tonight where you'll probably see some hot women. I trust you, but please--no physical contact. It may be irrational, but that's how I feel." he would probably have agreed. And he would have been able to let her know what his boundaries are when she has a girls night with her friends. I don't think she's as much of a crazy jealous bitch as some others here, but they need to be honest about their expectations if their marriage is going to work. (Is it cheating if one of them swoons over an attractive celebrity they see in a movie or on TV?) They can agree or say goodbye, but at least everything is out on the table.
If this woman had said something along the lines of "Honey, I know you guys will be going someplace tonight where you'll probably see some hot women. I trust you, but please--no physical contact. It may be irrational, but that's how I feel." he would probably have agreed. And he would have been able to let her know what his boundaries are when she has a girls night with her friends. I don't think she's as much of a crazy jealous bitch as some others here, but they need to be honest about their expectations if their marriage is going to work. (Is it cheating if one of them swoons over an attractive celebrity they see in a movie or on TV?) They can agree or say goodbye, but at least everything is out on the table.
50
Ok, while I agree that she overreacted, and it's her fault for not being specific about her boundaries, I've always had a bit of an issue with the while strippers-don't-count theory of cheating.
Would most people consider it cheating if a guy let a female friend take off most or all of her clothing and give him the equivalent of a lap dance in an obviously sexually-charged context? I think so. But because the stripper is a pro and it's a financial transaction, it's not supposed to be an issue. Because there's clearly no emotional component.
This presupposes that a person's only concern about their partner's monogamy is their emotional connection with a person. But I think most monogamous people care about outside sexual encounters, EVEN IF there is no emotional component. A lap dance is a sexual encounter with another person, impersonal as it is.
If I were into monogamy (which I tend not to be, as I think it's pretty unrealistic), I'd consider a request from a partner to draw the line before one-on-one encounters -- as opposed to a one-on-many performance, live or video -- to be reasonable. I wouldn't MAKE that request, cuz I don't really give a fuck. But I wouldn't think it crazy.
That got long. Sorry.
Would most people consider it cheating if a guy let a female friend take off most or all of her clothing and give him the equivalent of a lap dance in an obviously sexually-charged context? I think so. But because the stripper is a pro and it's a financial transaction, it's not supposed to be an issue. Because there's clearly no emotional component.
This presupposes that a person's only concern about their partner's monogamy is their emotional connection with a person. But I think most monogamous people care about outside sexual encounters, EVEN IF there is no emotional component. A lap dance is a sexual encounter with another person, impersonal as it is.
If I were into monogamy (which I tend not to be, as I think it's pretty unrealistic), I'd consider a request from a partner to draw the line before one-on-one encounters -- as opposed to a one-on-many performance, live or video -- to be reasonable. I wouldn't MAKE that request, cuz I don't really give a fuck. But I wouldn't think it crazy.
That got long. Sorry.
51
WoW.....only Mr Savage could put a homoerotic spin on guys going to watch FEMALE strippers. Warped to the max.
52
I agree with the female poster. As a woman, I,too, would be upset in the same way as this woman is/was. I think it speaks volumes about our young and up-coming society that they find her distress invalid. There have been other "everything is OK" societies. Perhaps you might want to consider why immorality harms civilizations.
53
I'm totally in agreement with Violet here. LDC overreacted, but I don't think a "you can look all you want but don't touch or be touched" rule is all that unrealistic, if those are the rules you set out in your "relationship agreement". But, both people have to be clear about what the agreement is.
Plus, I agree that the "it was only physical, not emotional" argument might not exactly hold water in a monogamous relationship. As Violet said, it's not just the emotional that matters...
Plus, I agree that the "it was only physical, not emotional" argument might not exactly hold water in a monogamous relationship. As Violet said, it's not just the emotional that matters...
55
it kinda is homoerotic. and this is coming from a straight guy who's not the biggest fan of strip clubs. the naked girl is only part of it feeling uncomfortable, but all the dudes in a room together ogling the girl, that's got some weird pack-mating-ritual-vibe about it where in the end they probably wouldn't care if they're dicks touched at some point during a free-for-all. and like Dan said, there's really nothing wrong with that. it's just funny in that strange way... in the same way that some people like to watch mice have sex.
56
You should have told her the DTMFA, not for her sake but for that guy's sake. Looks like he's got himself a crazy, controlling bitch in disguise, and this relationship will fall apart shortly after the honeymoon.
57
As a straight guy, there are things I do with male friends that one might possibly argue are homo-erotic, but watching a lap dance isn't one of them. For me, it's a hetero-erotic experience lived vicariously through my male friend, and that's all there is to it.
LDC is having an emotional response to the situation--feeling things she didn't expect. My advice to her is to try to rationally figure out where that's coming from and what, if anything, she wants to do about it. Browbeating the boyfriend, who was acting in good faith, would be a really bad move. If you've already put him through the ringer, you owe him an apology and some effort toward not taking your issues out on him in the future. What you've described are the actions of a good guy.
My advice to him is to not take responsibility for LDC's reaction. He did the right thing by maintaining the agreed upon boundaries to the best of his ability and being honest, so he has every right to feel good about himself. They should talk it through, and if he doesn't want to get lap dances when she's not around, fine. If he doesn't want to make such a concession, he should think about finding someone who doesn't get jealous.
I had to deal with a similar situation in the past and deciding to break up and only date pervy, sex positive women. When you tell your girlfriend about a lap dance and she responds with, "Yeah? Did she look in your eyes and grind her hips like this?" now that's living!
LDC is having an emotional response to the situation--feeling things she didn't expect. My advice to her is to try to rationally figure out where that's coming from and what, if anything, she wants to do about it. Browbeating the boyfriend, who was acting in good faith, would be a really bad move. If you've already put him through the ringer, you owe him an apology and some effort toward not taking your issues out on him in the future. What you've described are the actions of a good guy.
My advice to him is to not take responsibility for LDC's reaction. He did the right thing by maintaining the agreed upon boundaries to the best of his ability and being honest, so he has every right to feel good about himself. They should talk it through, and if he doesn't want to get lap dances when she's not around, fine. If he doesn't want to make such a concession, he should think about finding someone who doesn't get jealous.
I had to deal with a similar situation in the past and deciding to break up and only date pervy, sex positive women. When you tell your girlfriend about a lap dance and she responds with, "Yeah? Did she look in your eyes and grind her hips like this?" now that's living!
58
I totally agree that the girl overreacted, but...
Maybe she should go out and have a nearly-naked guy writhe all over her for money and see if it bothers him at all.
I bet it would, and I bet it would bother many people who otherwise think she is being a prude for being bothered by it. Maybe not.
Guys, you tell me- would it bother you if your future wife got a lap dance from a male stripper, dick in the face and everything? Probably not to the point of crying, but...I doubt you can say that you would not care at all.
Double standard blah blah blah.
Maybe she should go out and have a nearly-naked guy writhe all over her for money and see if it bothers him at all.
I bet it would, and I bet it would bother many people who otherwise think she is being a prude for being bothered by it. Maybe not.
Guys, you tell me- would it bother you if your future wife got a lap dance from a male stripper, dick in the face and everything? Probably not to the point of crying, but...I doubt you can say that you would not care at all.
Double standard blah blah blah.
59
FYI to Dan:
Women, and desire for women, is a major point of bonding between straight guys. They talk endlessly about women, point out the hotties that walk by, brag to their buddies when they hook up, laugh at guys who get rejected, play wingman for their friends, share porn with each other, and yes, they go to strip clubs together. In fact, hitting the strip club with the boys is pretty much a formal rite of passage for a guy who's getting married. Or for groups of guys away on business together. Or enlisted men on leave.
So, yes, there is some bonding going on, but there's nothing homoerotic about it. Quite the opposite, really.
Women, and desire for women, is a major point of bonding between straight guys. They talk endlessly about women, point out the hotties that walk by, brag to their buddies when they hook up, laugh at guys who get rejected, play wingman for their friends, share porn with each other, and yes, they go to strip clubs together. In fact, hitting the strip club with the boys is pretty much a formal rite of passage for a guy who's getting married. Or for groups of guys away on business together. Or enlisted men on leave.
So, yes, there is some bonding going on, but there's nothing homoerotic about it. Quite the opposite, really.
60
@58,
Firstly, I'm subject to correction but I don't think there's genitals to face contact in a lap dance, so your "dick in the face" analogy is inapposite.
Secondly, and more to the point, it honestly wouldn't bother me at all (provided there was no actual genitals to face contact, which I think probably would be going a bit far - hands on buttocks, chest, abs etc would be no problem). If the guy's dick actually touched my wife's face, I'd think the stripper was a dodgy fucker and frankly I'd like to give him a right bollocking, and I suspect my wife would feel the same way. That aside, no problem here with the missus getting a lapdance if she's into it.
I'm not saying I'd like the gruesome details though. After all, what goes on tour, stays on tour...
Firstly, I'm subject to correction but I don't think there's genitals to face contact in a lap dance, so your "dick in the face" analogy is inapposite.
Secondly, and more to the point, it honestly wouldn't bother me at all (provided there was no actual genitals to face contact, which I think probably would be going a bit far - hands on buttocks, chest, abs etc would be no problem). If the guy's dick actually touched my wife's face, I'd think the stripper was a dodgy fucker and frankly I'd like to give him a right bollocking, and I suspect my wife would feel the same way. That aside, no problem here with the missus getting a lapdance if she's into it.
I'm not saying I'd like the gruesome details though. After all, what goes on tour, stays on tour...
61
i hear ya, dan. titty bars are totally homoerotic. where else are that many males completely comfortable sporting erections in the presence of other men? i mean, aside from bathhouses...
62
From the snowfall in July department:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/…
"Former Vice President Dick Cheney waded into another roiling public debate Monday, saying he supports same-sex marriage as long as the issue is decided by states rather than the federal government."
From the snowfall in July department:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/…
"Former Vice President Dick Cheney waded into another roiling public debate Monday, saying he supports same-sex marriage as long as the issue is decided by states rather than the federal government."
63
Dear LDC,
When I read the first 3 lines of your post, I thought that it was anotrher "open-relationship" issue, but I was rather surprised not to say even shocked of the developments and the issues it brought up.
Last time time I checked GGG stood for Good, Giving and Game, well you are not and GGG does not stand for Good sex, Good communication and Great fun.
You said you condone and encourage " guys night out" and you knew the fact that BF was going to a strip club. What do you think a strip club is.... A sunday school, you should have voiced your concerns and said no... but this would not have been GGG would it be? and certainly not Great communication (rather a proof of poor communication)..You turned this whole experience into a tragedy which is neither GGG or what a mature, enlightened you claim to be but definitely a sensible woman (as opposed to a sensitive woman), the lapsus linguae in this respect reveals more of your character than anything else.
Dear , you should seek some advice on your controlling, insecurity and low self esteem issues in order to become this GGG, enlightened, amature and SENSITIVE person you aspire to be
When I read the first 3 lines of your post, I thought that it was anotrher "open-relationship" issue, but I was rather surprised not to say even shocked of the developments and the issues it brought up.
Last time time I checked GGG stood for Good, Giving and Game, well you are not and GGG does not stand for Good sex, Good communication and Great fun.
You said you condone and encourage " guys night out" and you knew the fact that BF was going to a strip club. What do you think a strip club is.... A sunday school, you should have voiced your concerns and said no... but this would not have been GGG would it be? and certainly not Great communication (rather a proof of poor communication)..You turned this whole experience into a tragedy which is neither GGG or what a mature, enlightened you claim to be but definitely a sensible woman (as opposed to a sensitive woman), the lapsus linguae in this respect reveals more of your character than anything else.
Dear , you should seek some advice on your controlling, insecurity and low self esteem issues in order to become this GGG, enlightened, amature and SENSITIVE person you aspire to be
64
I've never been a fan of strip clubs or lap dances in general. They're expensive, and not particularly titillating (for me at least). The only time I've received one was when someone else paid. I really don't see the big deal here. Isn't a lapdance just a closer striptease? I agree with those who think the guy should dump this woman. I'm wondering how GGG she can be if she's freaking out about something as insignificant as a lapdance. He's setting himself up for years of drama about similarly insignificant stuff.
65
If it happened to me... I wouldn't care. It's just a lap dance.
If I had done it to someone else, I either wouldn't have told, or wouldn't have done it to begin with. Too much guilt. I'd feel like I was cheating, even if I wasn't... I couldn't risk hurting someone's feelings. If I were at the point of engagement zone... I'd have no interest in anyone but the person I'm with.
If I had done it to someone else, I either wouldn't have told, or wouldn't have done it to begin with. Too much guilt. I'd feel like I was cheating, even if I wasn't... I couldn't risk hurting someone's feelings. If I were at the point of engagement zone... I'd have no interest in anyone but the person I'm with.
66
OMG, Dan, how the fuck did you blow this call so badly?
LDC is not obliged to permit her boy to get lap dances, but she does deserve to be dumped already for acting like an emotionally manipulative head case.
When a guy gets a lap dance -- a fucking lap dance! -- and promptly admits as much to his girlfriend, the appropriate response is not for her to cry her eyes out and bludgeon him for his "hurtful and disgusting" behavior.
LDC's boyfriend appears to be setting himself up for years of punishment for other capital offenses, such as jerking off to internet porn, admiring the occasional hot passer-by, or staying out too late with his guy friends at parties possibly attended by loose women, whom he will be suspected of wanting whether he touches them or not.
Don't abet this kind of shit, Dan. You know better.
LDC is not obliged to permit her boy to get lap dances, but she does deserve to be dumped already for acting like an emotionally manipulative head case.
When a guy gets a lap dance -- a fucking lap dance! -- and promptly admits as much to his girlfriend, the appropriate response is not for her to cry her eyes out and bludgeon him for his "hurtful and disgusting" behavior.
LDC's boyfriend appears to be setting himself up for years of punishment for other capital offenses, such as jerking off to internet porn, admiring the occasional hot passer-by, or staying out too late with his guy friends at parties possibly attended by loose women, whom he will be suspected of wanting whether he touches them or not.
Don't abet this kind of shit, Dan. You know better.
67
@59
Sounds homoerotic to me.
As a person born male; who idenitfies as transgender; and always liked / attracted to women; (which makes me kinda' gay) I have a unique perspective.
I've been exposed to all the BS 'straight' guys do / say when they are not in mixed company. (little did they know!) So much of it is sooo creepy and scary. What is it with all of the CONSTANT gay innuendo you guys do? And then say not so pleasant things about gay people at the same time?
Dan's right. Going to a strip club (ugh and yuk) is not about the women there, it's about the male bonding... The women are just objects - not people to them.
Sounds homoerotic to me.
As a person born male; who idenitfies as transgender; and always liked / attracted to women; (which makes me kinda' gay) I have a unique perspective.
I've been exposed to all the BS 'straight' guys do / say when they are not in mixed company. (little did they know!) So much of it is sooo creepy and scary. What is it with all of the CONSTANT gay innuendo you guys do? And then say not so pleasant things about gay people at the same time?
Dan's right. Going to a strip club (ugh and yuk) is not about the women there, it's about the male bonding... The women are just objects - not people to them.
68
The key point of note here is that LDC's boyfriend was honest with her, clearly realized he made a mistake, apologized in remorse, and swore not to let it happen again. What more can one person do when he makes a mistake in a relationship? Flagellate himself? Cut off his dick? Hell, if he had outright fucked the stripper, it's still in the realm of possibility for her to forgive him, because it's something people do and have done.
But she can't move on. So yes, people are piling shit on her for it.
But she can't move on. So yes, people are piling shit on her for it.
69
If the story is true that this guy's friends pressured him to get a lap dance, I've got to agree with Dan about the homoerotic thing. If the friends each wanted wanted a lap dance and got one, that would be about each of them wanting to watch the nearly-naked woman. If it was that important to them that their male friend get one, so important that they pressured him into it after he initially expressed reluctance, then that is about them wanting to watch HIM get a lap dance.
70
Dan usually gives great advice and he was 1/2 way there with this one - but homoerotic? That just came out of left field. It's one thing if they all circle jerked afterwards but when your buddies buy you a lap dance it's the same as them buying you a beer at a baseball game or a coffee at Timmy's; you get this one, I'll get the next round.
LDC should ignore the second half of the advice given - the first half was bang on, chill the fuck out. His buddies bought your bf the equivalent to a beer...with tits.
LDC should ignore the second half of the advice given - the first half was bang on, chill the fuck out. His buddies bought your bf the equivalent to a beer...with tits.
71
I agree with Dan and #3 that she's blown the dancer thing out of proportion.
By contrast, the homoerotic theory is completely out of left field. I don't deny that straight-male bonding almost always has an underlying erotic component--a topic for another time--but even so he did not "cheat" on his wife with his buddies any more than he did with the dancer. I find the logic there more than a bit strained. The advice to this woman would have sufficed if it had stopped before that whole line of thought.
By contrast, the homoerotic theory is completely out of left field. I don't deny that straight-male bonding almost always has an underlying erotic component--a topic for another time--but even so he did not "cheat" on his wife with his buddies any more than he did with the dancer. I find the logic there more than a bit strained. The advice to this woman would have sufficed if it had stopped before that whole line of thought.
72
Why is it that sooo many of my female friends get hell from their boyfriends and husbands if they so much as grind with a stranger on the dance floor? These husbands are the same straight males described by 59. They love to talk about hot girls with their friends, and get lap dances at bachelor parties, but they lose their shit at the idea that some guy is excited about their girlfriend, even if she doesn't give a shit and is just out having fun with the girlfriends.
73
@ 72:
I tend to think it's the power imbalance inherent to sex. If you'll forgive the generalizations: in most cases even if a guy wanted to act on desire with a stripper he couldn't (a friend of mine who stripped for nearly a year was pretty adverse to even dating her clients let alone sleeping with them. That said, she of course had friends in the business who would have sex if the price was right), same with those hot girls him and his friends pass walking down the street. Most likely he gets a polite smile and a no thank you.
A beautiful woman on the dance floor, the woman I happen to be dating, grinding hard against a stranger very likely possesses the power to take that boy home that night, hell that hour, if she so chose.
It doesn't bother me if my gf goes out and gets flirty, if it did I'd have to spend all my time fighting with her. We're both pretty extroverted so it works for us, but that doesn't mean I've never allowed a single jealous pang run through me. Basically, I sympathetic towards these guys for knowing just how easy it would be for their gf/wife to cheat if they ever did want to act on the desire.
I tend to think it's the power imbalance inherent to sex. If you'll forgive the generalizations: in most cases even if a guy wanted to act on desire with a stripper he couldn't (a friend of mine who stripped for nearly a year was pretty adverse to even dating her clients let alone sleeping with them. That said, she of course had friends in the business who would have sex if the price was right), same with those hot girls him and his friends pass walking down the street. Most likely he gets a polite smile and a no thank you.
A beautiful woman on the dance floor, the woman I happen to be dating, grinding hard against a stranger very likely possesses the power to take that boy home that night, hell that hour, if she so chose.
It doesn't bother me if my gf goes out and gets flirty, if it did I'd have to spend all my time fighting with her. We're both pretty extroverted so it works for us, but that doesn't mean I've never allowed a single jealous pang run through me. Basically, I sympathetic towards these guys for knowing just how easy it would be for their gf/wife to cheat if they ever did want to act on the desire.
74
I agree with those who say this is a about defining boundaries. If going to a strip club with buddies is OK, then the topic of lap dances needs to be discussed. It sounds like if the boyfriend knew that LDC was OK with the strip club but not with lap dances, he would be OK with this boundary. But instead it is a gray area. If it were me, if I were invited to a strip club by male buddies (which hasn't happened since I was married), my wife has already said this would be OK provided it is no more than an occasional thing. If this were to happen I would discuss the possibility of lap dances in advance. Personally, there are lots of other things I'd spend $20 on, but if my wife were OK with it I'd do it if someone else were paying. If not, I'd pass and be good with it.
As for the other issues - it doesn't matter if there was no emotional connection or was "meaningless." Meaningless but real sex with prostitutes is cheating according to most couples' definitions.
Homoerotica? Maybe for some guys, but not me. It depends on which party you imagine yourself as when watching.
As for the other issues - it doesn't matter if there was no emotional connection or was "meaningless." Meaningless but real sex with prostitutes is cheating according to most couples' definitions.
Homoerotica? Maybe for some guys, but not me. It depends on which party you imagine yourself as when watching.
75
My buddy bought me a lap dance once and it wasn't bad, it was up in Canada so I was all drunk and shit too, I don't think there was anything homoerotic about it.
However he has a point, while it was super cool to have a naked chick in front of me it meant absolutely nothing, in fact I can't think of a time I've ever thought of her, it's hard to even remember a face (though I do remember how perfect those tits were, god did not make those). I happened to be single at the time but I think if I were dating someone it wouldn't have effected it in the least, however I would have been just as guilty, just as open and honest and certainly if I knew how she felt I would turn them down.
Don't let a good guy slip through because he didn't say no to a naked woman, in fact there would be something wrong with him if his buddies offered him a naked woman and he said no (considering he didn't know your opinion). I understand you want guys with morals and convictions but he's more than willing to never do it again, and considering it's a first offense, on an issue that really isn't that bad, you got nothing to lose trying it again. I don't see strippers as the gateway girl to cheating, cheaters touch while lookers only look, strippers are just 3D porn. You've said he's been nothing but a great guy, don't throw it all away because he likes boobies, I doubt you're going to find someone just as nice who...I guess you want someone who despises boobies?
Think of it this way, he was probably helping some poor lady through college, sure maybe it's a little demeaning but there are far worse things in this world, everyone in this equation is an adult. He understands it's a financial transaction, she does what she feels comfortable with. Good luck!
However he has a point, while it was super cool to have a naked chick in front of me it meant absolutely nothing, in fact I can't think of a time I've ever thought of her, it's hard to even remember a face (though I do remember how perfect those tits were, god did not make those). I happened to be single at the time but I think if I were dating someone it wouldn't have effected it in the least, however I would have been just as guilty, just as open and honest and certainly if I knew how she felt I would turn them down.
Don't let a good guy slip through because he didn't say no to a naked woman, in fact there would be something wrong with him if his buddies offered him a naked woman and he said no (considering he didn't know your opinion). I understand you want guys with morals and convictions but he's more than willing to never do it again, and considering it's a first offense, on an issue that really isn't that bad, you got nothing to lose trying it again. I don't see strippers as the gateway girl to cheating, cheaters touch while lookers only look, strippers are just 3D porn. You've said he's been nothing but a great guy, don't throw it all away because he likes boobies, I doubt you're going to find someone just as nice who...I guess you want someone who despises boobies?
Think of it this way, he was probably helping some poor lady through college, sure maybe it's a little demeaning but there are far worse things in this world, everyone in this equation is an adult. He understands it's a financial transaction, she does what she feels comfortable with. Good luck!
77
It's amusing how some women and homos assume that straight male bonding rituals are all about latent homosexuality.
Trust me, we're just not that complicated. In fact, you could learn almost everything you need to know about us by closely observing a pack of dogs. (Cue the butt sniffing jokes.)
Trust me, we're just not that complicated. In fact, you could learn almost everything you need to know about us by closely observing a pack of dogs. (Cue the butt sniffing jokes.)
78
What seandr says is the most important point: we're not that complicated.
This is why invisible tests never work with guys - you're just setting us up to fail, and we're basically very simple creatures.
If you have expectations you must state them - clearly and directly. That always works best.
This is why invisible tests never work with guys - you're just setting us up to fail, and we're basically very simple creatures.
If you have expectations you must state them - clearly and directly. That always works best.
79
It's just the HANDS thing that bugs me ... if I have to sit on my hands while getting a lap dance, then she should sit on her hands too.
It's bothersome, and it does hit the jelousy button but in all truthfullness, if my girlfriend/wife likes to look at naked men, then at the end of the day, I'll have to appreciate that she LIKES sex!
But damn, from I've known about male strippers, it's kind of dirtier. They make out and get felt up for their tips. It sounds like a worse deal than being a female stripper.
It's bothersome, and it does hit the jelousy button but in all truthfullness, if my girlfriend/wife likes to look at naked men, then at the end of the day, I'll have to appreciate that she LIKES sex!
But damn, from I've known about male strippers, it's kind of dirtier. They make out and get felt up for their tips. It sounds like a worse deal than being a female stripper.
80
While I think that her reaction is a little overblown I think the calls to DTMFA are even more overblown. I was in an almost similar situation to her boyfriend and my girlfriend (now wife) had a somewhat similar reaction to her but was it b/c she was a controlling bitch? Hell no, as it turns out she just didn't know what a lap dance is all about. She didn't know that there is no physical contact whatsoever and that it's essentially just getting some titties in your face for about 5 minutes as the smell of cheap perfume and stripper juice wafts up your nose. Even though I really dislike strip clubs and couldn't care less about lap dances (I've got waaaaaaaaaaaay better things to spend my money on) now that she knows how lap dances work she doesn't care if I go.
@72 You say "if they so much as grind with a stranger on the dance floor" as if that was the most innocent thing you could possibly do but that's a way more sexually charged scenario. If I was to grind up on some woman on the dance floor I would absolutely expect my wife to go home in tears and kick me in the nuts when I got home b/c some stranger on the dance floor isn't being paid and is more than likely doing it b/c of an actual sexual attraction which could actually lead to any number of infidelities. If my wife wanted to go to a male strip club and ogle the swinging fire-hoses and have some dude put his man-boobs in her face then there's no problem b/c there's pretty much no chance of cheating or real sexual/emotional attachment to the performers.
@72 You say "if they so much as grind with a stranger on the dance floor" as if that was the most innocent thing you could possibly do but that's a way more sexually charged scenario. If I was to grind up on some woman on the dance floor I would absolutely expect my wife to go home in tears and kick me in the nuts when I got home b/c some stranger on the dance floor isn't being paid and is more than likely doing it b/c of an actual sexual attraction which could actually lead to any number of infidelities. If my wife wanted to go to a male strip club and ogle the swinging fire-hoses and have some dude put his man-boobs in her face then there's no problem b/c there's pretty much no chance of cheating or real sexual/emotional attachment to the performers.
81
Purportedly marriage is all about communication and attempts to understand each other. And also seems to be about two people trying to live out their lives and go on their personal journeys in a shared manner. (Two people can not be of one mind.) So you have every right to express that your boyfriend's actions hurt your feelings. If you feel that, and it's honest, be up front with that. A lot of bloggers you'd never want to date are going to tell you that means you have insecurities and you should be smarter than that, but where you're at with that now is where you're at with that now. You may feel different after this experience, but struggling with feelings of pain and hurt are experiences that characterize and inform most all of our lives, and it's totally valid to be honest about that.
But you also have to be willing to try and understand his viewpoint, if you yourself are genuinely interested in marrying him. I suggest putting yourself in his shoes. Can you at all relate? How would you have approached the situation afterward? Do you understand how he feels about the experience now? I'm not saying there should generally be a burden on the woman to do this for a man, it should be done by both parties as equally as possible in a relationship. But you have to be able to open those channels and try a mature communication strategy IF you really want to be married to someone. Because that's the only way you will survive the myriad of hurts and disappointments from someone that come from them struggling through decisions they face in their life. And they should do it for you, too.
But you also have to be willing to try and understand his viewpoint, if you yourself are genuinely interested in marrying him. I suggest putting yourself in his shoes. Can you at all relate? How would you have approached the situation afterward? Do you understand how he feels about the experience now? I'm not saying there should generally be a burden on the woman to do this for a man, it should be done by both parties as equally as possible in a relationship. But you have to be able to open those channels and try a mature communication strategy IF you really want to be married to someone. Because that's the only way you will survive the myriad of hurts and disappointments from someone that come from them struggling through decisions they face in their life. And they should do it for you, too.
82
Hmm...
I'm of two minds here. I would be upset about a boyfriend/potential fiance getting a lapdance. I wouldn't cry my eyes out, but I'd be very clear about it not happening again. I realise that for men, this is not about intimacy, it's about sex. But as a woman, to me sex is about intimacy. So the idea of my lover letting some half naked woman rub up against him, that would bother me.
I have to side with the people who have made the point from the other side. How many times have we seen men FLIP out and start throwing punches if their girlfriend so much as looks at another guy. If LDC took off her clothes and started dry humping some total stranger, how would her boyfriend react?
Is it cheating, I wouldn't go that far, but I do think it is unacceptable behaviour.
As for the homoerotic, I tihnk most of the things so called straight boys do are homoerotic. Especially sports. Football and the pile ups and the tight pants, and wrestling, both amateur and professional, and all that showering together. Most male bonding stuff is totally gay.
I'm of two minds here. I would be upset about a boyfriend/potential fiance getting a lapdance. I wouldn't cry my eyes out, but I'd be very clear about it not happening again. I realise that for men, this is not about intimacy, it's about sex. But as a woman, to me sex is about intimacy. So the idea of my lover letting some half naked woman rub up against him, that would bother me.
I have to side with the people who have made the point from the other side. How many times have we seen men FLIP out and start throwing punches if their girlfriend so much as looks at another guy. If LDC took off her clothes and started dry humping some total stranger, how would her boyfriend react?
Is it cheating, I wouldn't go that far, but I do think it is unacceptable behaviour.
As for the homoerotic, I tihnk most of the things so called straight boys do are homoerotic. Especially sports. Football and the pile ups and the tight pants, and wrestling, both amateur and professional, and all that showering together. Most male bonding stuff is totally gay.
83
Reposting here....
Those arguing "oh yeah? How would HE feel!?" are missing the point. If two people act (or would act) like controlling freaks, it does not justify or excuse each individual's behavior. It simply means that they are BOTH idiots.
This woman is passive-aggressive (and probably borderline). "Have a great time at the strip club, honey!" "You hurtful, disgusting BASTARD!" It's the old bait-and-switch of emotional blackmail. She gets to *appear* open-minded and trusting, but still gets to control and belittle him. And then she writes to a syndicated sex columnist, so she gets to *appear* like she's trying to work through it while simultaneously humiliating him even more. She's a martyr-control shrew, and she probably doesn't even completely know it. Believe me, there's more where this came from.
The only people who did their job here were this guy's friends. Their obligation is to flush out the true tantrum-oriented nature of this woman. It's too late to stop the wedding now, of course, but when it keeps happening over and over he'll think back to that first, really crazy episode. He'll remember how lucky he felt to have her blessing and how horrible he felt when she sobbed her eyes out. And then he'll finally start to get angry. And then, if he's lucky, he'll dump her some day.
His friends shaved a good two years off the lag time to a divorce. He owes them.
Those arguing "oh yeah? How would HE feel!?" are missing the point. If two people act (or would act) like controlling freaks, it does not justify or excuse each individual's behavior. It simply means that they are BOTH idiots.
This woman is passive-aggressive (and probably borderline). "Have a great time at the strip club, honey!" "You hurtful, disgusting BASTARD!" It's the old bait-and-switch of emotional blackmail. She gets to *appear* open-minded and trusting, but still gets to control and belittle him. And then she writes to a syndicated sex columnist, so she gets to *appear* like she's trying to work through it while simultaneously humiliating him even more. She's a martyr-control shrew, and she probably doesn't even completely know it. Believe me, there's more where this came from.
The only people who did their job here were this guy's friends. Their obligation is to flush out the true tantrum-oriented nature of this woman. It's too late to stop the wedding now, of course, but when it keeps happening over and over he'll think back to that first, really crazy episode. He'll remember how lucky he felt to have her blessing and how horrible he felt when she sobbed her eyes out. And then he'll finally start to get angry. And then, if he's lucky, he'll dump her some day.
His friends shaved a good two years off the lag time to a divorce. He owes them.
84
people need to understand the difference between homoeroticism and latent homosexuality. it's not something to get worked up about and I'm frankly pretty suprised that so many (assumed) male posters here seem offended about it's implications. I mean, seeing how a lot of people who read this paper are supposed to be gay-friendly and all, I'd think they'd have heard of the Kinsey scale. let's breal it down:
a bunch of dudes getting drunk together and insisting they buy a friend a lapdance so they can watch a girl writhe on him... homoerotic. touchdown!!!
a bunch of dudes buying a friend a stripper and then joining in on the action and when one of their dicks touch dudes' ass but they decide to just go with the moment and plow away... gay. oops!!!
maybe we should start refering to all things homoerotic as "bromantic" more often so the manly-men out there don't get their Jockey's in a wad?
a bunch of dudes getting drunk together and insisting they buy a friend a lapdance so they can watch a girl writhe on him... homoerotic. touchdown!!!
a bunch of dudes buying a friend a stripper and then joining in on the action and when one of their dicks touch dudes' ass but they decide to just go with the moment and plow away... gay. oops!!!
maybe we should start refering to all things homoerotic as "bromantic" more often so the manly-men out there don't get their Jockey's in a wad?
85
The casually homoerotic behavior of groups or pairs of men in strip clubs is endlessly amusing to me, and, as LEE pointed out, not a term to get ones boxer briefs in a twist over.
Going to a strip club and refraining from lapdances or tipping just makes you a cheap customer who should stay home, by the way, so the dude was just trying not to be a total waste of space. It's like going to Disney but not being allowed to ride any rides.
Going to a strip club and refraining from lapdances or tipping just makes you a cheap customer who should stay home, by the way, so the dude was just trying not to be a total waste of space. It's like going to Disney but not being allowed to ride any rides.
86
i have been that guy and i am married to someone like you, LDC. i am not a big strip club guy - i haven't been in years. but, the last time i went to one was a bach party where i sat and watched the houston astros play the st louis cardinals b/c the strip club and the stippers were say nasty.
my wife - who had traveled w/me to the wedding freaked. just lost it. finally, i asked her to leave. told her to fly home early. that if she didn't trust me enough to behave in a responsible, committed manner then i didn't want her at a wedding where i was a groomsman. she looked at me in disbelief.
she came back and said, ok we can have peace here but we still have a lot to talk about when we get home. i told her we didn't, that the conversation was over and that if she has issues w/strip clubs she needs to address them, that she knows i don't go, much less want to go to them and that her accusations were unwarranted. i said the next conversation we would have about it would be with our lawyers b/c i would not remain married to someone with such an intolerably low-threshold of trust.
while we have never talked about it again, my instinct was right and the trust issues manifest themselves all over the place. if you love this guy, LDC, get help now. otherwise, i promise you, neihter of you will be happy.
my wife - who had traveled w/me to the wedding freaked. just lost it. finally, i asked her to leave. told her to fly home early. that if she didn't trust me enough to behave in a responsible, committed manner then i didn't want her at a wedding where i was a groomsman. she looked at me in disbelief.
she came back and said, ok we can have peace here but we still have a lot to talk about when we get home. i told her we didn't, that the conversation was over and that if she has issues w/strip clubs she needs to address them, that she knows i don't go, much less want to go to them and that her accusations were unwarranted. i said the next conversation we would have about it would be with our lawyers b/c i would not remain married to someone with such an intolerably low-threshold of trust.
while we have never talked about it again, my instinct was right and the trust issues manifest themselves all over the place. if you love this guy, LDC, get help now. otherwise, i promise you, neihter of you will be happy.
88
I used to work in a strip club, and I always thought the inter-guy dynamic was really odd. I mean, there I am writhing around on a table, and they're sitting around making "heh heh heh" comments to each other. So . . . if they're getting turned on, that means they're essentially going out somewhere, as a group, to get hard-ons together (hard-ons that will not be alleviated in the club). If they're not turned on, then what the hell are they doing there? Either way, seems a wee tad odd.
As a former lap dancer, I second all of the "WTF" comments. Every so often (very, very rarely) I had a customer whom I thought was cool. That didn't mean I was going to fuck them, or even do anything different than I would for the usual douchebags. Rather, it tended to mean I'd take my shoes off, put my feet up, and talk with them about music, or physics (one of my regulars was a physicist who like talking subatomic particles with a hot girl on his lap), or snowboarding. Most customers ranged form annoying to insignificant. If they weren't totally grabby assholes, it was a relief, but didn't make me want to give them illegal and icky handjobs.
As Chris Rock has said, the stripper doesn't like you. She doesn't like your husband. Get over it.
As a former lap dancer, I second all of the "WTF" comments. Every so often (very, very rarely) I had a customer whom I thought was cool. That didn't mean I was going to fuck them, or even do anything different than I would for the usual douchebags. Rather, it tended to mean I'd take my shoes off, put my feet up, and talk with them about music, or physics (one of my regulars was a physicist who like talking subatomic particles with a hot girl on his lap), or snowboarding. Most customers ranged form annoying to insignificant. If they weren't totally grabby assholes, it was a relief, but didn't make me want to give them illegal and icky handjobs.
As Chris Rock has said, the stripper doesn't like you. She doesn't like your husband. Get over it.
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