Monday, June 1, 2009
News African African-Americans
Posted by Charles Mudede on Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:24 PM
The latest on CNN's Ireport.com:
They want to hear from us! They are finally recognizing our American story! My brothers and sisters, enough of this invisibility blues. Let's step out and hit the scene.
Over the past 20 years, millions of Africans have immigrated to the U.S. from 54 African nations. Today, Americans know very little about this growing and vibrant population.
If you are an African living in America, we want to hear from you. How do Africans view black Americans? Do you consider yourself African-American? What are the unique struggles you face being black and African in America?
Now, what does it mean to be a black African in America? By this you must mean: What does it mean to be black and not have a history of being a black American? Isn't that right? Yes, it is right. But before we answer this question, we must ask you, white America, why you want to know the answer to that? Do you want us to say bad things about black Americans? Would it please you if we said bad things about black Americans? Would it confirm something you already believe about black Americans? Answer that question and we will give you the answer to your question. What a country.
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5
Yes, please regale us with tales of chewing khat while driving a taxi or waiting for public service checks.
6
Blacks are always searching for anything and everything that might "offend" them. What a bunch of whiners.
8
I wonder if they all have such screwy views that communism is so wonderful and sweet; like you hold to Charles?
9
questionS, charles. not question.
my main question would be: what is the difference in the american experience of the educated vs. uneducated african immigrant?
my main question would be: what is the difference in the american experience of the educated vs. uneducated african immigrant?
10
that's right Charles. You've found us honkeys out. This question wasn't really as innocent as it might seem to a less discerning eye than yours. You've seen through our weak attempt at genuine curiosity and found the White Conspiracy's true intentions: to divide the blacks so we can re-institute slavery.
Seriously, why do you assume someone (I'm not going to take the bate and say 'we') wants you to trash other blacks? What if we just want to hear your perspective; how your experience and history shape your interaction with the American experience? And if you're so paranoid about it, why not answer in a way that doesn't play into white, evil schemes? What the fuck do you need a justification for? Why always assume bad faith in an innocent question?
Seriously, why do you assume someone (I'm not going to take the bate and say 'we') wants you to trash other blacks? What if we just want to hear your perspective; how your experience and history shape your interaction with the American experience? And if you're so paranoid about it, why not answer in a way that doesn't play into white, evil schemes? What the fuck do you need a justification for? Why always assume bad faith in an innocent question?
11
Most american blacks hate african blacks. I have seen it first hand. I have seen american blacks being extremely vulgar and violent to african blacks at bus stops etc. I wonder if the same feelings run the other way?
I am not sure which group is more retarded, though. That is a really tough call.
I am not sure which group is more retarded, though. That is a really tough call.
12
and, who the fuck said it was a white person asking the question? CNN is based in Atlanta, which is not exactly demographed like Seattle. Maybe it was a question asked by an Indian immigrant who wants to compare notes? Maybe it was an African-from-Africa American who thought the story of African Americans would make for good TV and was opening up the comments.
And fuck you for all this "white america" shit. I didn't set up the iReports, nor did I have anything to do with it.
God, you suck charles (and no, not b/c you're black). Choke on a dick.
And fuck you for all this "white america" shit. I didn't set up the iReports, nor did I have anything to do with it.
God, you suck charles (and no, not b/c you're black). Choke on a dick.
13
Charles,
Indeed, recent African immigrants' stories need to be told and we (all of our fellow Americans not just African-American and white) need to listen. I just don't think those are the proper questions to pose or the proper order to pose them if that's the case.
Look, it's no secret that ANY immigrant will not have the same baggage or grievances as those people who have been here for several generations. Especially if those same generations were discriminated against or whose ancestors were slaves. The immigrant's experience will be entirely different.
That said, I find it extremely positive that there are diverse tales of the African immigrants' journey to America and the African-American experience right here at home. It's not monolithic. I, for one want to how varied they truly are.
Indeed, recent African immigrants' stories need to be told and we (all of our fellow Americans not just African-American and white) need to listen. I just don't think those are the proper questions to pose or the proper order to pose them if that's the case.
Look, it's no secret that ANY immigrant will not have the same baggage or grievances as those people who have been here for several generations. Especially if those same generations were discriminated against or whose ancestors were slaves. The immigrant's experience will be entirely different.
That said, I find it extremely positive that there are diverse tales of the African immigrants' journey to America and the African-American experience right here at home. It's not monolithic. I, for one want to how varied they truly are.
16
I had high hopes for this post, Charles. I've always enjoyed the little anecdotes that show how your childhood in Rhodesia/Zimbabwe shapes your view of America and its culture/people. But your defensiveness (if that's what it is) isn't terribly interesting at all...
I don't think it's indicative of any hidden agenda to ask this question. The immigrant experience is interesting to many people and the issue of how black Africans view African-Americans is just as interesting as the issue of how 2nd generation immigrants deal with having their feet in both cultures...
I don't think it's indicative of any hidden agenda to ask this question. The immigrant experience is interesting to many people and the issue of how black Africans view African-Americans is just as interesting as the issue of how 2nd generation immigrants deal with having their feet in both cultures...
18
"White America, why you want to know the answer to that?"
We don't.
And I don't ever recall enrolling in the White America club. Until you realize that the majority of 'White America' have nothing in common with eachother, you'll never get past whatever weird grudge you have against this nonexistent monolithic group.
I have more in common with you than I do half of the white people that live on my block. And, yes, you should learn to admit that you have more in common with half the white people on my block than most Africans.
Man, stop weighing yourself down with all this bullshit us/them cultural nonsense. We white people are not a group. We don't all like one another, and we certainly have more internal diversity in this country than any other ethnicity. You're not an outsider. You're not special. You're not a fucking stranger in a strange land. At least no more than the average white person.
We don't.
And I don't ever recall enrolling in the White America club. Until you realize that the majority of 'White America' have nothing in common with eachother, you'll never get past whatever weird grudge you have against this nonexistent monolithic group.
I have more in common with you than I do half of the white people that live on my block. And, yes, you should learn to admit that you have more in common with half the white people on my block than most Africans.
Man, stop weighing yourself down with all this bullshit us/them cultural nonsense. We white people are not a group. We don't all like one another, and we certainly have more internal diversity in this country than any other ethnicity. You're not an outsider. You're not special. You're not a fucking stranger in a strange land. At least no more than the average white person.
19
Why not just go back to Africa where you won't have any of these kinds of questions to bother you?
20
Backhanded compliment that may be more backhand than compliment:
I usually think Mudede is full of shit but this post hits the nail on the head.
I usually think Mudede is full of shit but this post hits the nail on the head.
23
@11
It's sad but true - the only interactions I've ever witnessed between African immigrants (in this case, Somali refugee teenagers) and African-Americans have been overwhelmingly negative. My majority-black high school was merciless to these kids, shunning them for their headscarves and poor English and generally being "African", often making clicking noises/similar insensitive gestures when they passed in the hall. They never thought for a second that they had anything in common (which, if you think about it, they didn't).
It all really has to do with the uniqueness of the African-American experience - they've been sundered from Africa for hundreds of years now. I sure don't have much in common with the culture of my Prussian great-great-grandparents.
It's sad but true - the only interactions I've ever witnessed between African immigrants (in this case, Somali refugee teenagers) and African-Americans have been overwhelmingly negative. My majority-black high school was merciless to these kids, shunning them for their headscarves and poor English and generally being "African", often making clicking noises/similar insensitive gestures when they passed in the hall. They never thought for a second that they had anything in common (which, if you think about it, they didn't).
It all really has to do with the uniqueness of the African-American experience - they've been sundered from Africa for hundreds of years now. I sure don't have much in common with the culture of my Prussian great-great-grandparents.
24
Some white people want black African immigrants to confirm their secretly held view that a significant fraction of African American complaints about racism are unjustified whining. I don't think that is what this particular question was getting at though.
25
Hmmm...if I had to guess, it would be all about slavery. I once knew a liberal white woman who said she would never vote for Colin Powell, not because of his political stances, but because his family had voluntarily immigrated to Jamaica and then to the US, and therefore had bypassed the experience of slavery. I'm terribly curious how she felt about Obama. But both racists and anti-racists win no matter how the African immigrant community is doing. If African immigrants do poorly, racists say it's because blacks are inferior, and anti-racists say that American racism is so deeply embedded that it grinds down even those who don't bear a history of slavery. If they do well, racists can say American blacks are just lazy and maybe a trip back to Africa will improve them (hyuk-hyuk), while anti-racists can say that slavery was so bad it's still destroying a community 160 years after its abolition. Something for everyone.
26
The school district's code it uses for ethnic groups is something like this: white, white/hispanic, black/hispanic, Indian/hispanic; Native American, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai, Vietnamese, Philipino, Indian, and Black. There's no separate code for Somali, Ethiopian, Egyptian, South African, Nigerian, etc etc. It's pretty lame on my part. Charles, I realize I'm just telling you this in the hopes you can do something about it. Thanks.
27
Most African immigrants I've met are like anybody I've met; there's good and bad, smart and dumb, rich and poor. There IS tension between African-Born and Born-Here African Americans, but it's comparable to those between immigrants and natives of all colors and creeds.
Big Somali population up here. They're mostly religious folks. They've got lots of kids, and they work very, very hard at jobs that don't pay much. The kids run a little wild at the laundromat, but their mommas seem to be nice.
Big Somali population up here. They're mostly religious folks. They've got lots of kids, and they work very, very hard at jobs that don't pay much. The kids run a little wild at the laundromat, but their mommas seem to be nice.
28
18 nails it. It sure is easier, though, to group people by physical characteristics or by geographical origin and then assume they all exhibit identical traits and behaviors.
29
Damn Charles, way to be a cut throat dick about the whole thing.
I know very few African Americans, but I've met a few black immigrants. And perhaps in my limited experience, African African Americans actually TALK and associate with us whities and their conversations ... they don't seem to be so weighted.
I was going to give you some credit. It's none of my business and I care not to judge the motivations for the relative issolationism of "typical" black america. But I was going to give you some credit for even acknowledging and addressesing the whitest of all metropolitan wanna-be diversity aware demographics in the world. I always thought African african americans don't have the bad blood of American slavery. Africa is also a big place and they have well ... a lot of diversity and culture in and of themselves. In my opinion, I have found African immigrants more open and accepting of life outside of "typical" africa america. They can also move back and forth too ... Like you Charles
But you Charles had to be a total dick about it and accussing of us for looking some reason to spite you guys?
I know very few African Americans, but I've met a few black immigrants. And perhaps in my limited experience, African African Americans actually TALK and associate with us whities and their conversations ... they don't seem to be so weighted.
I was going to give you some credit. It's none of my business and I care not to judge the motivations for the relative issolationism of "typical" black america. But I was going to give you some credit for even acknowledging and addressesing the whitest of all metropolitan wanna-be diversity aware demographics in the world. I always thought African african americans don't have the bad blood of American slavery. Africa is also a big place and they have well ... a lot of diversity and culture in and of themselves. In my opinion, I have found African immigrants more open and accepting of life outside of "typical" africa america. They can also move back and forth too ... Like you Charles
But you Charles had to be a total dick about it and accussing of us for looking some reason to spite you guys?
30
Most of my African friends are either from French speaking nations or are caucasians.
Which gives one a very different perspective on Africa than that which we see in the English speaking media.
Which gives one a very different perspective on Africa than that which we see in the English speaking media.
31
Charles, I'm guessing that our too-black/not-black-enough President is the reason for this question.
If Obama was from Nicaragua, they'd be asking Central Americans what they think of Mexicans.
If Obama was from Nicaragua, they'd be asking Central Americans what they think of Mexicans.
32
Every one has a story. Hang around Seattle Center, an you'll find about 30 different events a year where different groups share their stories. Hang around on July 4th, and you'll hear about 70 different stories.
They're all fascinating, to the receptive ear.
Lots of people want to hear from lots of people ... but who in his right mind wants to hear from Mudede?
They're all fascinating, to the receptive ear.
Lots of people want to hear from lots of people ... but who in his right mind wants to hear from Mudede?
33
Charles, you got it all wrong, man.
you jump to conclusions and make yourself look crazy.
they're trying to find out about a group of people, why do you have a problem with that? and don't hide behind the whole "white america" thing, that's just as racist as the things you WANT people to admit to.
that's okay though, man, i guess we do all look the same. but, if you can't tell the difference between African Americans FROM Africa and African Americans who are the product of the American system after talking with them for even a small amount of time, then you don't know that many black people in America.
you jump to conclusions and make yourself look crazy.
they're trying to find out about a group of people, why do you have a problem with that? and don't hide behind the whole "white america" thing, that's just as racist as the things you WANT people to admit to.
that's okay though, man, i guess we do all look the same. but, if you can't tell the difference between African Americans FROM Africa and African Americans who are the product of the American system after talking with them for even a small amount of time, then you don't know that many black people in America.
34
Curious that Ms Matata's image was used for this post I remember how much flak and rumors was surrounding her due to her hairstyle which was a unique reflection of her culture and that which is viewed as beautiful in Africa (Tanzania) as opposed to in the west. Needless to say she did not win, neither did equally beautiful Ms Mendoza who also had endure the vicious tongues surrounding her as if she were something of an anomaly even though in the west only Brazil and the U.S surpass Colombia in the numbers of people of African descent, same with the stunning Ms Reis of Angola who the critics sought to do everything they could to distance from her African heritage. I 've meet many people from the Motherland and while yes there have been a few who like Mr Mudede fail to comprehend the struggles of African Americans and our need for keeping vigilance and think of themselves even superior to us even though the same forces that wrecked havoc on us did the same in the continent itself, I found them to be mainly those of the horn of Africa and surrounding nations. Many others from West and Central Africa see a connection and brotherly love for their fellow African Americans brethren like wise whenever I've witness someone making fun of our immigrant African brothers and sisters I take it personally and make it my duty to remind them that in all probability that's just how many of our ancestors spoke when they were forced to speak english (perhaps worst) as they arrived here in chains. Mr Mudede has a lot to learn as do many immigrants and native born americans of African ancestry, because regardless from what African nation someone immigrates to here, regardless of whether they speak french, english, portuguese, regardless of their religion or socioeconomic status once you arrive here only people of African descent dwell on those differences because to the caucasian so long as you have black skin (in any of their wonderful shades) or any black features regardless if your ancestor came here before theirs two hundred years ago and was the first man to die in the american revolution like Crispus Attucks or just got off the airplane yesterday, to him/her we're all Africans and yes, African Americans Mr Mudede, even if you refuse to see yourself as such, others do.
More...
35
Taking this question at face value: I would like to hear a new take on racism from someone who presumably didn't grow up with it. Is it as bad as you expected, or better/worse? There must be trade-offs that make it worth it, what are some? How universal is it? Does an accent make whites treat you better or worse than no accent? Can a former outsider judge if things are getting better? That's what I'd really like to hear -- that things are getting better (if they are), that America is making practical progress on this issue.
What I don't what to hear is anyone making blanket statements against black people, and that goes double for slog commenters.
What I don't what to hear is anyone making blanket statements against black people, and that goes double for slog commenters.
36
I am Kenyan and I am taken for an African American until I speak......then after that am accused of talking white.....
37
Not all recent African immigrants are black OR white. There's a substantial Ismaili population from East Africa here, who are of Indian ethnicity (which is called "Asian" everywhere except in the US). The world is a complicated place, and some of that complication is coming to America now -- the country that always pretends that nothing is complicated.
Great post, Charles; the morons above have been left behind by history.
Great post, Charles; the morons above have been left behind by history.
38
The East Indian population to which 37 refers to see themselves first and foremost as Indians or Asians and not as Africans both here (in the U.S) and in the continent (Africa). The bulk of them migrated during colonial times and sought to remain themselves apart from the native populations even after the apartheid systems and colonial powers were overthrown just like the whites who remained. And any African born and raised in one of those nations be it South Africa or Tanzania knows that's a reality.
39
This is actually an interesting question, and I'm saddened to see it played out in such a negative way.
The way I see it, black Americans are a different culture than the many cultures that make up African-Americans. Being black doesn't make everybody all the same.
However, slaves and the descendants of slaves in the US were treated as if they were all the same, so they bonded together for mutual assistance. What emerged from this painful experience was an entirely new culture, some of which can be traced to Africa, some not. Black American culture is an important world culture that has had great influence in many different aspects of life. We should celebrate it for its achievements, while acknowledging its distance from modern Africa.
The way I see it, black Americans are a different culture than the many cultures that make up African-Americans. Being black doesn't make everybody all the same.
However, slaves and the descendants of slaves in the US were treated as if they were all the same, so they bonded together for mutual assistance. What emerged from this painful experience was an entirely new culture, some of which can be traced to Africa, some not. Black American culture is an important world culture that has had great influence in many different aspects of life. We should celebrate it for its achievements, while acknowledging its distance from modern Africa.
40
Excuse my ignorance Heretic, but -living -in -London- as -a -born -of- African -parentage woman, I assumed that every black person in America called themselves African American. How do you distinguish between Black American and African American? Physically, for example. And this "new culture" as you put it is MOSTLY traced to Africa. And why the need to "acknowledge its distance from Modern Africa." Have you been to "Modern Africa?" as you so put it. Africa is Africa. Sorry, but you sound a little confused. You are certainly not a person of color, that is for sure. You sound like you just started learning about black history, but got a little tongue twisted in the process!
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