Slog
News & ArtsSunday, May 31, 2009
News O They Will Know We Are Christians...
Posted by Dan Savage on Sun, May 31, 2009 at 10:37 AM
...by the doctors we murder—on their way into church.
George Tiller, the Wichita doctor who became a national lightning rod in the debate over abortion, was shot to death this morning as he walked into church services.
Andrew Sullivan calls out Bill O'Reilly for painting a bull's eye on Tiller.
1
There is a difference between "freedom of speech" and advocating and directing bodily harm and hate toward an individual or group.
Sullivan's links serve as a reminder of this.
Sad, but alas, not surprising.
Sullivan's links serve as a reminder of this.
Sad, but alas, not surprising.
2
I openly encourage any violent nutball in reading distance of this comment to shoot Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, Mark Levin, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and Glenn Beck.
I'm sure there are more. Await further instructions.
I'm sure there are more. Await further instructions.
6
I would appreciate it if more of the christians would consistently shout down their less moderate, murderous, anti-science peers.
10
John Aravosis at Americablog sums it up just right:
Thank God that the Obama administration caved last month to religious right and GOP demands that it withdraw a new domestic terrorism report that indicated, among other things, that radicals might use abortion as a justification for committing acts of domestic terrorism. Now a man is dead, and an American church has been shot up during services. Which leads to the question as to whether the Obama administration plans to do anything about the terrorist threat posed by religious right extremists, or whether typical Democratic spinelessness will lead us to now ignore this brutal murder, since that is the message that was sent last month, just weeks before this act of terror.
Note that had Obama held firm in the face of the criticism last month, he'd be riding high right now and the GOP would be cowering in shame for having basically enabled this terrorist act. But Democrats rarely look to the future, nor do they see benefit in having a spine or doing what's right. And now a man is dead.
Thank God that the Obama administration caved last month to religious right and GOP demands that it withdraw a new domestic terrorism report that indicated, among other things, that radicals might use abortion as a justification for committing acts of domestic terrorism. Now a man is dead, and an American church has been shot up during services. Which leads to the question as to whether the Obama administration plans to do anything about the terrorist threat posed by religious right extremists, or whether typical Democratic spinelessness will lead us to now ignore this brutal murder, since that is the message that was sent last month, just weeks before this act of terror.
Note that had Obama held firm in the face of the criticism last month, he'd be riding high right now and the GOP would be cowering in shame for having basically enabled this terrorist act. But Democrats rarely look to the future, nor do they see benefit in having a spine or doing what's right. And now a man is dead.
11
YES THIS IS ALL OBAMAS FAULT HE THREW US UNDER THE BUS AND NOW WOMYN ARE BEING TARGETED AT WELL I AM SICK WE WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER OFF WITH MCCAIN PALIN AT LEAST WE WOULD KNOW THEY HATE US THANK YOU DAN SAVAGE AND YOUR RPLACE MAFIA FOR BRINGING THIS NIGHTMARE UPON THE FQTBLG COMMUNITY SEE YOU AT THE CONCENTRATION CAMP
12
What basis does Savage have for blaming 'Christians'?
The killer evidently remains at large.
Many people of different (or no) religious beliefs find late term abortion to be reprehensible and immoral.
The killer evidently remains at large.
Many people of different (or no) religious beliefs find late term abortion to be reprehensible and immoral.
14
This is tragic.
Some things are legal but immoral.
Slavery was.
Abortion is.
I wonder if some things can be illegal but moral...
Some things are legal but immoral.
Slavery was.
Abortion is.
I wonder if some things can be illegal but moral...
16
Also: I hope outrage about this murder completely shames, buries and discredits religious right extremists and their almost-treasonous promotion of gun violence/ civil war in this country.
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@12: When hearing that some dire, repulsive act was committed in the name of "pro-life" (which is really anti-choice); it is a pretty sure bet that the person or persons responsible will self-identify as Christian.
Furthermore, far-right groups (and individuals) that proclaim to be Fundamentalist Christians tend to applaud those acts (unless it is made really uncomfortable for them to take pride in being pro-hate).
Furthermore, far-right groups (and individuals) that proclaim to be Fundamentalist Christians tend to applaud those acts (unless it is made really uncomfortable for them to take pride in being pro-hate).
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@15: not an accusation pointed at bloggers or at the poster. an open question more geared toward the religious right.
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17
If Osama is murdered in cold blood by a rival what will be an appropriate response?
Relief?
Joy?
Outrage at the murder?
Applause?
If Osama is murdered in cold blood by a rival what will be an appropriate response?
Relief?
Joy?
Outrage at the murder?
Applause?
22
@12
Stick your ignorant anachronistic world-view up your uptight ass. I'm willing to bet a paycheck that this white male is a christian. You willing to put up yours that it is not?
Regardless of this murderous person's faith (which it would be SHOCKING if it was not a christian fundamentalist), you are defending and part of religious fundamentalism.
Show me the atheists or agnostics who are committed violent crimes against "the believers".
Do the planet a favor....do not reproduce.
Stick your ignorant anachronistic world-view up your uptight ass. I'm willing to bet a paycheck that this white male is a christian. You willing to put up yours that it is not?
Regardless of this murderous person's faith (which it would be SHOCKING if it was not a christian fundamentalist), you are defending and part of religious fundamentalism.
Show me the atheists or agnostics who are committed violent crimes against "the believers".
Do the planet a favor....do not reproduce.
23
I wish I could say I'm surprised at the way my neighbors behave. Way to be, wichita. Ad astra per cognitive fucking dissonance.
24
@10,
Aravosis can eat shit. That narcissistic motherfucker needs to shut the fuck up and wait to see what Obama does. Anything less proves what a useless piece of shit he is, period.
Aravosis can eat shit. That narcissistic motherfucker needs to shut the fuck up and wait to see what Obama does. Anything less proves what a useless piece of shit he is, period.
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@14: if anti-abortion activists value ALL life, they should 1) oppose the death penalty; 2) oppose all wars; 3) practice non-violence. killing full grown adults to prevent abortion is a morally bankrupt act. did any abolitionists try to enslave former slave-owners in order to overturn the institution of slavery?
27
One can be saddened by and condemn an illegal act of murder while simultaneously recognizing that the victim was responsible for the horrible death of hundreds or thousands of innocent children.
Condemning the murder and murderer does not require one to ignore the monstrous immorality of the murdered victim.
Pondering how the universal scales of justice weigh the death of one who killed so many vs. the illegal act of murder that struck him down does not imply any condoning of the murder.
Being a victim does not make you a Saint, or negate a lifeswork of evil.
Sometimes there are no heros in a story, bad people do bad things to other bad people.
Condemning the murder and murderer does not require one to ignore the monstrous immorality of the murdered victim.
Pondering how the universal scales of justice weigh the death of one who killed so many vs. the illegal act of murder that struck him down does not imply any condoning of the murder.
Being a victim does not make you a Saint, or negate a lifeswork of evil.
Sometimes there are no heros in a story, bad people do bad things to other bad people.
29
25
If pro-choice activist value ALL choices they should have no problem with this guy making his choice for how to deal with the doctor.
If pro-choice activist value ALL choices they should have no problem with this guy making his choice for how to deal with the doctor.
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Rather than pushing for an amendment and putting this up for a vote, the political arm of the pro-life movement has been willing to fan the flames of rage against abortion. They get votes and money, but they aren't doing anything to put an end to abortion, which encourages their more twisted followers to think they have no other option than violence.
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It was not uncommon for abolition activist to kill slave holders.
Their contemporaries and we see them as courageous heroes.
It was not uncommon for abolition activist to kill slave holders.
Their contemporaries and we see them as courageous heroes.
32
Dan seeks to condemn (and silence) all Christians for the act of one (as yet unidentified) individual.
Would he have the world judge and condemn all homosexuals based on the behavior of Jeffrey Dahmer?
Really?
Would he have the world judge and condemn all homosexuals based on the behavior of Jeffrey Dahmer?
Really?
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The Democrats should nip this scam in the bud by passing laws to protect America's unborn children.
The Democrats should nip this scam in the bud by passing laws to protect America's unborn children.
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Hey douchebag @28: If you want to draw your little moral lines in the sand, feel free. Just don't go around calling it "pro-life." You simply can't kill people--no matter what you think they're guilty of--and call yourself "pro-life." Don't you crazy fuckers believe that God is the only one who has the right to take human life? Isn't that the whole basis of your pathetically misguided "movement"? Your capricious approach leaves you with no legitmacy and even less integrity.
It's amazing and sad that you and your fanatical ilk can't see the obvious contradictions at the heart of your "philosophy."
It's amazing and sad that you and your fanatical ilk can't see the obvious contradictions at the heart of your "philosophy."
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A respect for life suggests that we protect innocent life and punish those who take it.
What price and penalty should be extracted from someone who takes an innocent life?
If you value that life highly justice would demand the ultimate price, the life of the killer.
It is consistent and simple.
Babies should be protected.
Murders should be executed.
When they find and convict Dr Tiller's killer I hope he is executed.
It may be ironic but there is no contradiction.
A respect for life suggests that we protect innocent life and punish those who take it.
What price and penalty should be extracted from someone who takes an innocent life?
If you value that life highly justice would demand the ultimate price, the life of the killer.
It is consistent and simple.
Babies should be protected.
Murders should be executed.
When they find and convict Dr Tiller's killer I hope he is executed.
It may be ironic but there is no contradiction.
39
Torture and war and all manner of atrocities are OK, but somehow abortions are so bad they need to kill the doctors that perform them. Somebody needs to get a better perspective on reality. Do they think wars make for better population control? Do they think abortion is worse than a guy killing his whole family? Those anti-choice /Lysol douche users are like fetuses with no brain activity.
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before they execute him, i hope they send him to gitmo and waterboard him until he gives up the names of his fundamentalist cronies who might be planning other such attacks. it's a ticking time bomb scenario. even if he doesn't actually know any other murderers, i'm sure they could make him point some fingers at his pastor or bill o'reilly after his 83rd or 84th drowning.
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@38,
right. so there should be no killing unless you (and your religious brethren) decide there should be. have you considered the families of the aborted fetuses? you're all about protecting children, when abortion could very well be the best thing for them at that time. families not ready for children shouldn't have them. resentment can lead to abuse and by criminalizing abortion you're forcing children onto people that will resent them. but hey, a lifetime of abuse is better than a painless death, right? no one deserves this. least of all someone who's devoted his life and time to ensuring women can have the right to choose what they can and can't do safely with their bodies.
your religious ideals don't trump a person's choice. don't believe in abortion? don't fucking have one.
right. so there should be no killing unless you (and your religious brethren) decide there should be. have you considered the families of the aborted fetuses? you're all about protecting children, when abortion could very well be the best thing for them at that time. families not ready for children shouldn't have them. resentment can lead to abuse and by criminalizing abortion you're forcing children onto people that will resent them. but hey, a lifetime of abuse is better than a painless death, right? no one deserves this. least of all someone who's devoted his life and time to ensuring women can have the right to choose what they can and can't do safely with their bodies.
your religious ideals don't trump a person's choice. don't believe in abortion? don't fucking have one.
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42, rabid pro-lifers are generally anti-birth control, too. It's not so much anti-choice as anti-sex.
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@36 and 37-
Right he is white Christian male so he can actually be held accountable. If he were and Muslim and/or person of African or Arab descent we would be told we were ignorant for condemning it blindly but should "look at the reasons". Ever notice we always hear that when it is an Arab Muslim, but never when it is a white Christian.?
We are also told "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." Yet this never applies to the white christian terrorist/freedom fighter and DEFINATELY not if the victim is Muslim or a person of color.
Right he is white Christian male so he can actually be held accountable. If he were and Muslim and/or person of African or Arab descent we would be told we were ignorant for condemning it blindly but should "look at the reasons". Ever notice we always hear that when it is an Arab Muslim, but never when it is a white Christian.?
We are also told "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." Yet this never applies to the white christian terrorist/freedom fighter and DEFINATELY not if the victim is Muslim or a person of color.
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Abortion has been an option since the first woman got pregenant, and it will continue to be an option until the last woman gives birth. All outlawing it would do would be to tidy up the numbers and sweep the issue under the rug. Hence, it's appeal to Christians, who are notorious for sweeping thing under the rug and pretending they don't exist. Or do exist, as the case may be.
Of course, the GOP, and the religious hierarchy, and the conservative media realize this, and they use the issue to play saps for their votes and their money. "Conservatives" have pretty much controlled thing for the last dozen years or so, but do we see any tinkering with abortion? Oh, sure, they go back and forth about family planning funding, and what trimester is the cutoff, and parental notification, but that's it. Why kill the goose that lays the golden egg?
Of course, there is occasionally the victim, like this doctor and, to a certain extent, the weak-minded nutcase who was driven to do this by the hysteria surrounding the issue, but the anti-freedom people consider that just a cost of doing business.
It's all a racket, and a big diversion. Only the hard-core crazies think it's about "saving babies".
Of course, the GOP, and the religious hierarchy, and the conservative media realize this, and they use the issue to play saps for their votes and their money. "Conservatives" have pretty much controlled thing for the last dozen years or so, but do we see any tinkering with abortion? Oh, sure, they go back and forth about family planning funding, and what trimester is the cutoff, and parental notification, but that's it. Why kill the goose that lays the golden egg?
Of course, there is occasionally the victim, like this doctor and, to a certain extent, the weak-minded nutcase who was driven to do this by the hysteria surrounding the issue, but the anti-freedom people consider that just a cost of doing business.
It's all a racket, and a big diversion. Only the hard-core crazies think it's about "saving babies".
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well put 42, but also, birth control isn't 100% effective in all scenarios. no one's saying abortion is an effective method of birth control. people should still use condoms and take the pill and what-have-you. i think pro-lifers think all us pro-choicers are saying that people should do whatever feels best and deal with consequences. not so. in an ideal world people would use condoms AND the pill (double protection against pregnancy, and regular against stds) until they're ready to have a child or have decided to have an elective surgery to prevent one. but even in that scenarios, there's still the minute chance of a pregnancy. you're punishing people for doing something people do by nature, and have been doing since before these puritanical marriage ethics were in existence. it's unfair and it completely dehumanizes people by ignoring their basest hormonal instincts.
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If Tiller's death turns out to be abortion related he will be the fourth abortionist physician killed in America since 1993.
Since Roe 40 Million babies have been aborted in America.
Since Roe 40 Million babies have been aborted in America.
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Yeah, @48, I guess when you've got as much blood on your hands as the Christian religion does, what's four more dead bodies?
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Abortion punishes people (children who did not ask to be conceived) for doing something people do by nature (which is, to be conceived when two other people choose to engage in behavior they know may lead to pregnancy), by KILLING THEM.
It's unfair and it completely dehumanizes people by KILLING THEM for having the poor judgement to be conceived by two other people.
If people give in to their basest hormonal instincts and make poor choices and the only way out of the poor choice is to KILL SOMEBODY why don't we start KILLING THE SLOBS WHO MADE THE POOR CHOICE instead of killing the innocent bystander.
If you insist on KILLING something let's at least get it right...
Abortion punishes people (children who did not ask to be conceived) for doing something people do by nature (which is, to be conceived when two other people choose to engage in behavior they know may lead to pregnancy), by KILLING THEM.
It's unfair and it completely dehumanizes people by KILLING THEM for having the poor judgement to be conceived by two other people.
If people give in to their basest hormonal instincts and make poor choices and the only way out of the poor choice is to KILL SOMEBODY why don't we start KILLING THE SLOBS WHO MADE THE POOR CHOICE instead of killing the innocent bystander.
If you insist on KILLING something let's at least get it right...
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I've held off on installing w7ngman's "hide the anonymous commenters" code, but this thread makes a compelling argument...
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51
or you could stick your head up your ass; either way will shield you from unpleasant truths...
or you could stick your head up your ass; either way will shield you from unpleasant truths...
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#51, installing those scripts have made reading this blog a pleasure again. I highly recommend it.
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@38 et al.: First of all, if you feel so strongly about your opinion, get a Slog name and post under it consistently, you fucking coward.
Second, you, the media, and even some pro-choice people here refer to those opposed to legal abortion as "pro-life". Bullshit. Pro-choice does not equal anti-life. Most (not all) anti-abortion people could give a rat's ass about the fetus after it turns into a baby. The Republican party screams bloody murder at anything that makes keeping the baby a realistic option: raising the minimum wage, subsidizing day care, making a decent education more affordable so mother and child won't be condemned to a life of low wage jobs or welfare, even better public transportation so working mothers can get to better paying jobs. And 43 is right about you people being opposed to birth control that would have prevented the unwanted pregnancy in the first place.
When you Republicans start showing that you actually care about real people who don't take the choice of ending an unwanted pregnancy lightly but recognize that they are not able to be effective parents, then maybe others will actually take you seriously. But if all you care about is "Waaaaah! Those Wall Street millionaires pay too much in taxes! Boo-hoo-hoo!" then you are a liar for calling yourself pro-life. Go fuck yourself.
Second, you, the media, and even some pro-choice people here refer to those opposed to legal abortion as "pro-life". Bullshit. Pro-choice does not equal anti-life. Most (not all) anti-abortion people could give a rat's ass about the fetus after it turns into a baby. The Republican party screams bloody murder at anything that makes keeping the baby a realistic option: raising the minimum wage, subsidizing day care, making a decent education more affordable so mother and child won't be condemned to a life of low wage jobs or welfare, even better public transportation so working mothers can get to better paying jobs. And 43 is right about you people being opposed to birth control that would have prevented the unwanted pregnancy in the first place.
When you Republicans start showing that you actually care about real people who don't take the choice of ending an unwanted pregnancy lightly but recognize that they are not able to be effective parents, then maybe others will actually take you seriously. But if all you care about is "Waaaaah! Those Wall Street millionaires pay too much in taxes! Boo-hoo-hoo!" then you are a liar for calling yourself pro-life. Go fuck yourself.
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@50 If you really feel that way, than why are you so upset about abortion? By your remarks, you clearly feel murder is ok. Why so upset over a clump of cells?
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59
But maybe one day you'll get a life and you'll know that happy day has arrived when it doesn't bother you what name (or lack thereof) I post under...
But maybe one day you'll get a life and you'll know that happy day has arrived when it doesn't bother you what name (or lack thereof) I post under...
66
People are kwazy all over. Example:
A Pole came home one day from work, hung up his coat, took off his hat and walked into his bedroom shouting "honey I'm home!"
What should he see but his best friend in bed with his wife. Infuriated, he rushed to the cupboard, pulled out his gun and put it to his head. His wife started laughing. "Don't laugh!" he screams. "You're next!"
People are kwazy all over. Example:
A Pole came home one day from work, hung up his coat, took off his hat and walked into his bedroom shouting "honey I'm home!"
What should he see but his best friend in bed with his wife. Infuriated, he rushed to the cupboard, pulled out his gun and put it to his head. His wife started laughing. "Don't laugh!" he screams. "You're next!"
67
This news really upsets me. There is a real shortage of medical students who are volunteering to be trained to perform abortions these days (in Canada at least). The truth is that almost no doctor looks forward to performing abortions, but rather feels a strong conviction that women desperately need this service to be safe and legal. I don't think that these type of vigilante murders themselves deter students from being trained in abortion, but rather add a sinister note to a very real atmosphere of judgment and social stigma for both doctors and patients.
The abortions that he was performing were legal. If any person had a problem with that, they should have taken it up with lawmakers. There are valid grounds for limiting the availability of late-term abortions, and there are laws reflecting this already in place in Kansas, I believe. Killing this one man will do absolutely nothing to stop or slow the rate of abortion.
Now, to feel better, let's listen to some bill hicks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4mFHqYr0…
The abortions that he was performing were legal. If any person had a problem with that, they should have taken it up with lawmakers. There are valid grounds for limiting the availability of late-term abortions, and there are laws reflecting this already in place in Kansas, I believe. Killing this one man will do absolutely nothing to stop or slow the rate of abortion.
Now, to feel better, let's listen to some bill hicks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4mFHqYr0…
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Athena sounds like Loveschild, Dan's taking shots at Christian whackjobs which moderate Christians find offensive, Fifty-Two-Eighty is mad at all Christians everywhere---just another normal day on SLOG
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@50, oh, one of those sex is only for procreation folks. so the rights of an undeveloped, unfeeling mass of cells that will someday become a human child takes precedence over the rights of grown and matured men and women everywhere. that's some fucked up logic right there.
@64, i think i love you.
@64, i think i love you.
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In any given year in America a Physician has a 1 in 1,253,000 chance of being killed over abortion.
This year one in five babies conceived in America will end up impaled on the end of a physicians blade.
Exactly whom is inflicting a "sinister note" onto whose existence?
In any given year in America a Physician has a 1 in 1,253,000 chance of being killed over abortion.
This year one in five babies conceived in America will end up impaled on the end of a physicians blade.
Exactly whom is inflicting a "sinister note" onto whose existence?
72
@50
You say "why don't we start KILLING THE SLOBS WHO MADE THE POOR CHOICE"...so, your intent is to kill:
-any woman who had an abortion
-the doctor that helped
--the husband that helped
--the women who helped her
--the boy friend that helped her.
Ok, so that would be about 50-100 million Americans.
Are you going to use gas chambers?? How are you going to process this thru the courts? You couldn't. Do you plan to start a civil war and have roving bands of executioners?
Tell us your plans. Own your position.
You say "why don't we start KILLING THE SLOBS WHO MADE THE POOR CHOICE"...so, your intent is to kill:
-any woman who had an abortion
-the doctor that helped
--the husband that helped
--the women who helped her
--the boy friend that helped her.
Ok, so that would be about 50-100 million Americans.
Are you going to use gas chambers?? How are you going to process this thru the courts? You couldn't. Do you plan to start a civil war and have roving bands of executioners?
Tell us your plans. Own your position.
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Correction, @69: I despise all organized religions, not just Christianity. And especially the mindless boobs that suck it up like milk from their mother's tit. I'm equal-opportunity that way.
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To the religious nutcases out there (Yes, that means you, LovesChild), I say Remember Number 5! (That's for Catholics, the rest of you, it's number 6):
Thou Shalt Not Kill (1.2.3.)
1. Does not apply to us (say the religious folks). Nyah, nyah.
2. Offer not valid in all 50 states.
3 Your mileage may vary.
Thou Shalt Not Kill (1.2.3.)
1. Does not apply to us (say the religious folks). Nyah, nyah.
2. Offer not valid in all 50 states.
3 Your mileage may vary.
80
I was trying to cheer up my drunkanddepressed friend last night by encouraging him to take an affirmative view of existence, and I wound up shouting "I'm pro-life!" on a crowded street. It was so embarrassing. I wasn't thinking about abortion at all, just the rest of life.
Really sad about Tiller. The saddest part is that these kinds of acts have successfully discouraged so many doctors and clinics from offering abortions in the first place. The terrorists are winning.
Really sad about Tiller. The saddest part is that these kinds of acts have successfully discouraged so many doctors and clinics from offering abortions in the first place. The terrorists are winning.
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"fire from heaven" that's a laugh. Is that where you imaginary "angry dad" lives? Self-righteous troll turd...
82
"This year one in five babies conceived in America will end up impaled on the end of a physicians blade."
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been listening to that crap for years. You people are such dreary drama queens.
We sing a fine song in this country about loving children, but we don't want to insure them, we don't want to feed them, we don't want to provide good schools for them, we don't want provide low cost or free college for them. About the only use we have for them, as a society, is as fresh meat to market shoddy products to.
As my mother often says, everybody loves babies, but not many people love children - and that includes most of these nutjobs that wring their hands and bore the daylights out of normal people with their self-righteous obsession over "the babies".
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been listening to that crap for years. You people are such dreary drama queens.
We sing a fine song in this country about loving children, but we don't want to insure them, we don't want to feed them, we don't want to provide good schools for them, we don't want provide low cost or free college for them. About the only use we have for them, as a society, is as fresh meat to market shoddy products to.
As my mother often says, everybody loves babies, but not many people love children - and that includes most of these nutjobs that wring their hands and bore the daylights out of normal people with their self-righteous obsession over "the babies".
83
79
Of course.
Pregnant women always run around saying:
"I'm having a Zygote!"
And their friends respond:
"Oh! When is your Zygote due?"
Then her boyfriend says:
"I'm not ready for a Zygote..."
Of course.
Pregnant women always run around saying:
"I'm having a Zygote!"
And their friends respond:
"Oh! When is your Zygote due?"
Then her boyfriend says:
"I'm not ready for a Zygote..."
84
Pro life stance + Pro capital punishment stance = insupportable mathematics and mindfuck contradiction.
Pissed off fairy: If I send you a small check, will you go out and buy yourself some logic. Blaming Dan for whatever mess you assume is about to arrive on your doorstep is like blaming Steve Poole for rain.
Pissed off fairy: If I send you a small check, will you go out and buy yourself some logic. Blaming Dan for whatever mess you assume is about to arrive on your doorstep is like blaming Steve Poole for rain.
86
@71. A lot of early term abortions are performed via pill which induces miscarriage. So your dramatising claptrap RE 'oh the horror of the physicians knife' - generalising wildly about the processes involved - is a little inaccurate.
87
@83, you notice the future tense there? yes? learn some english. it means the baby will come about. not that you HAVE a baby. a zygote is what it is, until it becomes a baby. no one's killing babies. they're terminating zygotes or fetuses or whathaveyous before they BECOME babies.
88
@83. Women run around saying 'I'm a having a baby!' when they're hapy about being pregnant. Being happy about pregnancy and hoping your zygote will develop into a baby which you will then give birth to does not alter the fact that until later in the pregnancy, it remains a zygote. It's projection.
89
83,
When they say "I'm having a baby" they mean a full-term baby. They may have a zygote at that time but they're envisioning the future, not the present.
When they say "I'm having a baby" they mean a full-term baby. They may have a zygote at that time but they're envisioning the future, not the present.
91
"Torture and war and all manner of atrocities are OK, but somehow abortions are so bad they need to kill the doctors that perform them."
Bingo. This is the thing that keeps staring you in the face every time something like this happens. Never mind the death penalty, never mind how much they cut health and human services to children...they're perfectly fine with war, perfectly fine with torturing and killing war prisoners...and yet they're...pro-life you say?
They don't give a good goddamn about life. They are about control.
Bingo. This is the thing that keeps staring you in the face every time something like this happens. Never mind the death penalty, never mind how much they cut health and human services to children...they're perfectly fine with war, perfectly fine with torturing and killing war prisoners...and yet they're...pro-life you say?
They don't give a good goddamn about life. They are about control.
92
"Killing babies is wrong. I hope we can agree on this."
Except during times of war? Except when they're sick and we don't want to provide them with health care because that would be socialist?
Except during times of war? Except when they're sick and we don't want to provide them with health care because that would be socialist?
93
91
92
We kill babies because we are not satisfied with the Right's positions on war and torture and healthcare.
92
We kill babies because we are not satisfied with the Right's positions on war and torture and healthcare.
94
@93, nope. we condemn abortions while killing innocent civilians to placate the right's control issues and voting down laws and acts that would improve the children we claim to protect's lives.
98
91
92
We aren't all that interested in healthcare, education or rehabilitation for ex-cons, either.
Can we start clearing the backlog on death row?
92
We aren't all that interested in healthcare, education or rehabilitation for ex-cons, either.
Can we start clearing the backlog on death row?
99
Far more pregnancies come to a premature end by natural means than through abortion. Does it then logically follow that God is a murderer? Of course not. Right?
The fundamental assumption of the anti-choice movement is that a two-celled zygote is a human being. That belief is a remarkably newly held one in both the church and in society. Most, but admittedly not all, of those who hold anti-choice positions also have a very firm belief in the Providence of God--that events that do not have a clearly human cause are part of "God's plan." (Many Christians, myself included, believe that this is not in fact the case--but I believe it is a fair assessment that a majority of devoutly anti-choice Christians do hold that belief.)
That being the case, following the logic that permits, seeks somehow to explain or even relativize the morality of this senseless murder, anti-choice believers surely must condemn God and renounce their faith because God has committed far more abortions than Dr. Tiller.
I realize that this statement is inflammatory, particularly coming from a pastor and a person of faith. But It state it not to assert its truth, but to seek to demonstrate the fallacy of the moral certitude that lies at the heart of those in the anti-choice movement who condone, or turn a blind eye, to violence committed ostensibly in the name of God.
To equate IN ANY MORAL SENSE the intentional murder of Dr. Tiller with Dr. Tiller's providing a LEGAL medical procedure that terminates a pregnancy within the legal bounds of Roe v. Wade is to make a mockery of morality, ethics and faith. To in any way seek to justify or morally relativize Dr. Tiller's slaughter using dubious statistics about the number of terminated pregnancies is to play the politics and morality of Himmler.
There are days when I truly believe Christ weeps for the ignorance, hate, arrogance and pompous moral certainty of those who claim to follow him. Today is such a day.
More...
The fundamental assumption of the anti-choice movement is that a two-celled zygote is a human being. That belief is a remarkably newly held one in both the church and in society. Most, but admittedly not all, of those who hold anti-choice positions also have a very firm belief in the Providence of God--that events that do not have a clearly human cause are part of "God's plan." (Many Christians, myself included, believe that this is not in fact the case--but I believe it is a fair assessment that a majority of devoutly anti-choice Christians do hold that belief.)
That being the case, following the logic that permits, seeks somehow to explain or even relativize the morality of this senseless murder, anti-choice believers surely must condemn God and renounce their faith because God has committed far more abortions than Dr. Tiller.
I realize that this statement is inflammatory, particularly coming from a pastor and a person of faith. But It state it not to assert its truth, but to seek to demonstrate the fallacy of the moral certitude that lies at the heart of those in the anti-choice movement who condone, or turn a blind eye, to violence committed ostensibly in the name of God.
To equate IN ANY MORAL SENSE the intentional murder of Dr. Tiller with Dr. Tiller's providing a LEGAL medical procedure that terminates a pregnancy within the legal bounds of Roe v. Wade is to make a mockery of morality, ethics and faith. To in any way seek to justify or morally relativize Dr. Tiller's slaughter using dubious statistics about the number of terminated pregnancies is to play the politics and morality of Himmler.
There are days when I truly believe Christ weeps for the ignorance, hate, arrogance and pompous moral certainty of those who claim to follow him. Today is such a day.
100
There's a rabid anti-choicer who belongs to my parents' church--she wanted the pastor to denounce abortion from the pulpit, and (thankfully) the pastor declined. This woman's rants are all based on how awful a person an ex-girlfriend of her deadbeat son is to have aborted her first grandchild. The ex is a whore and a pariah to this lady. Her son (who whipped it out and participated in creating this unwanted pregnancy) is held blameless, even though he's a drunk who can't hold a job and would have had to have been sued in order to get him to support an unwanted child.
A friend in high school was the child of anti-choicers, and as they ascribed to the no-birth control, hide-her-virgin-ears line, she did not get sex education either. When she got knocked up at 16 out of this ignorance, her dad (a save the children, every baby is a product of God who deserves love guy) threw her out of the house. I don't know what happened to her or the baby she was forced to have. If that's how one shows love to children, I'm glad not to have any.
The thing is, no one really wants women to have to undergo abortions. One side thinks the way to reduce abortion is to educate about and provide access to scientifically-proven-effective means of birth control--they realize that 1) people like to have sex and 2) people should know how to do so safely and responsibly. For this group, abortion should be a last resort of birth control, not a first. They also recognize that there are medical situations in which abortion is the best option, such as ancephaly or other fatal abnormalities or multiples.
The other side wants to label unmarried women who engage in straight sex as selfish whores who deserve what they get, and thus shame women into not getting abortions. Married women shouldn't have abortions or use birth control either, as babies within a marriage are part of God's plan, no matter how many kids you already have or can afford. Women who are raped should carry resulting babies because the babies are blameless, yet women in this situation are left to care for a child without support. Pregnancies that endanger the life of the mother or child are supposed to be continued no matter what, as such difficulties are your cross to bear. Rarely to never are the men who helped create these pregnancies called to task.
All things considered, I'd rather people be educated and able to have sex safely instead of demonized.
More...
A friend in high school was the child of anti-choicers, and as they ascribed to the no-birth control, hide-her-virgin-ears line, she did not get sex education either. When she got knocked up at 16 out of this ignorance, her dad (a save the children, every baby is a product of God who deserves love guy) threw her out of the house. I don't know what happened to her or the baby she was forced to have. If that's how one shows love to children, I'm glad not to have any.
The thing is, no one really wants women to have to undergo abortions. One side thinks the way to reduce abortion is to educate about and provide access to scientifically-proven-effective means of birth control--they realize that 1) people like to have sex and 2) people should know how to do so safely and responsibly. For this group, abortion should be a last resort of birth control, not a first. They also recognize that there are medical situations in which abortion is the best option, such as ancephaly or other fatal abnormalities or multiples.
The other side wants to label unmarried women who engage in straight sex as selfish whores who deserve what they get, and thus shame women into not getting abortions. Married women shouldn't have abortions or use birth control either, as babies within a marriage are part of God's plan, no matter how many kids you already have or can afford. Women who are raped should carry resulting babies because the babies are blameless, yet women in this situation are left to care for a child without support. Pregnancies that endanger the life of the mother or child are supposed to be continued no matter what, as such difficulties are your cross to bear. Rarely to never are the men who helped create these pregnancies called to task.
All things considered, I'd rather people be educated and able to have sex safely instead of demonized.
102
India - two days of rioting after one Sikh leader bumps off another in Vienna.
Iran - Sunnis bomb a Shia mosque and the regime responds by rounding up three random Sunni prisoners and hanging them.
I hope the Lutherans get to do something good to the Bible bangers.
Iran - Sunnis bomb a Shia mosque and the regime responds by rounding up three random Sunni prisoners and hanging them.
I hope the Lutherans get to do something good to the Bible bangers.
104
It makes zero sense to be anti-abortion AND anti-birth-control. If right-to-life folks were really interested in protecting life, they would help women choose whether they wanted to be pregnant or not, ie, encourage birth control. The fact that they're only anti-abortion shows it up for what it's really about: the power of control over women's bodies & sexuality.
I feel for his family. Brave man to keep going after being shot already.
I feel for his family. Brave man to keep going after being shot already.
105
Violence should never be seen as the option, lets disagree all we want and take our case to the people instead. Pro-lifers are not served well by these kind of criminal acts, it goes against what they're fighting for (life) and it just serves to delay the change in favor of the sanctity of life that most americans are beginning to profess.
106
Out of all the people I know who oppose abortion, only ONE of them opposes all forms of murder (war, death penalty, killing abortionists, untreated poverty, etc).
It's not a coincidence that those who oppose abortion usually are fine with all state-sponsored forms of killing post-born humans. This is because opposing abortion DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH GIVING A SHIT ABOUT BABIES. If you really gave a shit about babies, you people wouldn't have voted in overwhelming numbers for the most war-mongering President in American history. You wouldn't oppose virtually every domestic welfare and international aid program in existence. You do know that war and poverty kill babies too, right? You wouldn't oppose birth control in such high numbers, since birth control prevents more abortions than any number of megachurch pastors threatening Hell for the sexually active.
No, you do not oppose abortion out of concern for "children." You are a big, fat, sleazy liar if you claim to, and you know it. You oppose abortion because for you, a fetus represents sexual consequences. You can't stand the idea of women being independently sexual without some sort of "consequence."
This, and a fetus is not a child. It may someday become a child, but so can a sperm. Or an unfertilized egg. Or even the proteins in the food that you eat that go into making that sperm and egg.
So if you want to say that a fetus is a child, then you also have to stop menstruating (if you're a woman) and stop masturbating. And stop eating protein. After all, wouldn't want to waste those proteins during the times that you don't plan to launch them into someone's vagina.
You anti-choice people are a cruel fucking joke.
It's not a coincidence that those who oppose abortion usually are fine with all state-sponsored forms of killing post-born humans. This is because opposing abortion DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH GIVING A SHIT ABOUT BABIES. If you really gave a shit about babies, you people wouldn't have voted in overwhelming numbers for the most war-mongering President in American history. You wouldn't oppose virtually every domestic welfare and international aid program in existence. You do know that war and poverty kill babies too, right? You wouldn't oppose birth control in such high numbers, since birth control prevents more abortions than any number of megachurch pastors threatening Hell for the sexually active.
No, you do not oppose abortion out of concern for "children." You are a big, fat, sleazy liar if you claim to, and you know it. You oppose abortion because for you, a fetus represents sexual consequences. You can't stand the idea of women being independently sexual without some sort of "consequence."
This, and a fetus is not a child. It may someday become a child, but so can a sperm. Or an unfertilized egg. Or even the proteins in the food that you eat that go into making that sperm and egg.
So if you want to say that a fetus is a child, then you also have to stop menstruating (if you're a woman) and stop masturbating. And stop eating protein. After all, wouldn't want to waste those proteins during the times that you don't plan to launch them into someone's vagina.
You anti-choice people are a cruel fucking joke.
107
Christian means "Christ-like" The person who murdered the doctor was not a Christian. There is no contradiction here. Jesus did not murder people or comend people that do.
Jesus and his disciples once went to a town and were not welcomed. The disciples asked "Jesus do you want us to call down fire to destroy this wicked town." Jesus became angry and rebuked them. (Luke 9:54) Jesus did not come into the world to destroy it but save it. (John 3:17)
Anyone who says that a "christian" did this or that "Christians" approve of this this are wrong. The bible specifically says that murder is wrong. The people who are blaming Christians are feeding their own biases and searching for ammo to throw at real Christians. The bible says (Ephesians 6:12) we do not wage war against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities. We do not wage war the way the world does but our weapons are spiritual (2nd Corinthians 10:3).
Jesus and his disciples once went to a town and were not welcomed. The disciples asked "Jesus do you want us to call down fire to destroy this wicked town." Jesus became angry and rebuked them. (Luke 9:54) Jesus did not come into the world to destroy it but save it. (John 3:17)
Anyone who says that a "christian" did this or that "Christians" approve of this this are wrong. The bible specifically says that murder is wrong. The people who are blaming Christians are feeding their own biases and searching for ammo to throw at real Christians. The bible says (Ephesians 6:12) we do not wage war against flesh and blood but against powers and principalities. We do not wage war the way the world does but our weapons are spiritual (2nd Corinthians 10:3).
108
Noble sentiments. Now may I suggest that you go to the Fox News website and tell it to all the self-described "Christians" in the comments to their story on this who are busy whooping it up.
109
@107: While it is true that what you describe are not the acts of "real Christians" - it is also true that not enough "real Christians" are willing to confront those who hate, kill, and oppress others and do it in the name of being "Christian".
If you are one of those who takes a stand and calls-out the "false Christians" who delight in wrongfully justifying their destructive, divisive, and horrific acts in the name of god and Christianity - then I applaud you, and those like you.
We know that good, real Christians do exist - Kim in Portland serves as a fine example of someone who refuses to stand by and let someone warp the words and teachings of the religion that she ascribes to justify saying and doing bad things. Because she stands up for what she believes in, and the teachings of the faith that she believes in, it does make her a better Christian than those of her peers who will hear the same falsehoods and stand by and do nothing.
If you are one of those who takes a stand and calls-out the "false Christians" who delight in wrongfully justifying their destructive, divisive, and horrific acts in the name of god and Christianity - then I applaud you, and those like you.
We know that good, real Christians do exist - Kim in Portland serves as a fine example of someone who refuses to stand by and let someone warp the words and teachings of the religion that she ascribes to justify saying and doing bad things. Because she stands up for what she believes in, and the teachings of the faith that she believes in, it does make her a better Christian than those of her peers who will hear the same falsehoods and stand by and do nothing.
110
USof A is a fucked up, violent country and will remain this way till the the end of times. The End.
111
@ The Cowardly Troll of Many Names:
Not one single baby, infant, or child has been aborted in all of America. One can not abort what has already been born.
Not one single baby, infant, or child has been aborted in all of America. One can not abort what has already been born.
113
Pro-choice..could it mean, uh... CHOOSING NOT to have sex??!! Oh wait only HUMANS have the ability to CHOOSE...unlike the animals who are controlled by their "hormones". If I remember correctly some humans would still like to adopt. Even if the baby was conceived by an (human) animal OR two. ;)
115
Both the trolls and the troll trollers have gotten out of hand here. I'm going back to work before I get ill.
116
Dr.Tiller saved the lives of thousands of women whose pregnancies threatened their health. Any doctor would be proud to have his record of patient care, but most are too cowardly to serve on the front lines of the culture war. Dr. Tiller was brave, as well as good.
117
I couldn't even finish listening to the clip of "Kelly" telling O'Reilly about her abortion: Typical hypocrite - she had her abortion available to her when it was convenient to her and now she's "shocked" and wants to take away that right from other women. EVERY anti-abortion woman I've ever met in my life has HAD ONE: It's how they assuage their guilt, by trying to take that option away from other women. It was there when they needed it - yes, I'm sure it was no walk in the park, but WTF did they expect? I hate people like this.
118
Hyzenthlayk9 @ 109,
Thank you for the encouragment. Alfred Adler (1870-1937) once said, "It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them." And, I found that to be true over the course of my own life. So, I'm just a fallible, forgiven, sinner working to live up to those principles. Somedays I do a better job of it than others. I'm hoping at the end, that at minimum, I come out even.
Thank you for the encouragment. Alfred Adler (1870-1937) once said, "It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them." And, I found that to be true over the course of my own life. So, I'm just a fallible, forgiven, sinner working to live up to those principles. Somedays I do a better job of it than others. I'm hoping at the end, that at minimum, I come out even.
119
115: Sorry, but the kind of blatant lying and hypocrisy displayed by these people just pisses me off. The arguments they make are completely disingenuous and have nothing to do with their real motives; they know it, we know it, and yet everyone keeps pretending that opposing abortion has anything to do with babies. I'm sick of it.
120
Babies contribute nothing to society. They can't hold a job nor contribute to the greater good. They come to this country and can't even speak the language. As far as I'm concerned abortionists are doing good work as vaginal minutemen.
122
Uneducated, uninformed @ 14, 18, 25, etc. ad nauseum, you're making the same set of emotionally charged, but not really rational or logical arguments we hear every time the topic of abortion access surfaces. You can see a conversation where the semantics and details are more thoroughly covered here at: http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
If you actually want an anecdotal cross section of late-term abortion cases, look here: http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/kans…
...and then see how you can justify your if you don't want a baby don't have sex position, since it doesn't actually apply.
If you actually want to have a reasonable debate about abortion access (of which I doubt you're capable, let alone willing), you can start here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/aborti…
Until then, you're not for real.
McGee @ 120 while you may have intended to be ironic, the issue of population control is a relevant one that does seem to be missed by the anti-abortion crowd, since they often oppose birth control as much as they oppose abortions. I had a theory that the pro-life agenda, whose impact is primarily felt by the lower and lower-middle classes of our country (who are more sexually active than other strata, and have less access to birth control, inhibited more frequently by conscientious doctors and pharmacists who refuse to prescribe or fill prescriptions, respectively) was conspiring to create a steady stream of recruits into our armed forces. I've, since, become of the belief that they just aren't capable of that calculated a scheme.
More...
If you actually want an anecdotal cross section of late-term abortion cases, look here: http://www.aheartbreakingchoice.com/kans…
...and then see how you can justify your if you don't want a baby don't have sex position, since it doesn't actually apply.
If you actually want to have a reasonable debate about abortion access (of which I doubt you're capable, let alone willing), you can start here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/aborti…
Until then, you're not for real.
McGee @ 120 while you may have intended to be ironic, the issue of population control is a relevant one that does seem to be missed by the anti-abortion crowd, since they often oppose birth control as much as they oppose abortions. I had a theory that the pro-life agenda, whose impact is primarily felt by the lower and lower-middle classes of our country (who are more sexually active than other strata, and have less access to birth control, inhibited more frequently by conscientious doctors and pharmacists who refuse to prescribe or fill prescriptions, respectively) was conspiring to create a steady stream of recruits into our armed forces. I've, since, become of the belief that they just aren't capable of that calculated a scheme.
123
Uriel-238,
I enjoy reading your comments. They always provide food for thought.
Peace.
PS I like your avatar. I love the combination of the atomic mass and atomic number of Uranium with the name Uriel (Heb. light, light of God?), and makes me think of an archangel with superpowers. It fits you. You do a good job of providing information to illuminate thread comments.
I enjoy reading your comments. They always provide food for thought.
Peace.
PS I like your avatar. I love the combination of the atomic mass and atomic number of Uranium with the name Uriel (Heb. light, light of God?), and makes me think of an archangel with superpowers. It fits you. You do a good job of providing information to illuminate thread comments.
124
10...we're glad you're not an American too. Stay where you are.
love, A Native American.
ps..All of you GOD haters can leave the country as well.
love, A Native American.
ps..All of you GOD haters can leave the country as well.
125
For what it's worth, I applaud the physicians that continue to provide abortion services in the face of such fucktards. I think this just inspired me to go to med school.
126
I am a pro-life Christian. I am totally appauled by what happened to the Dr. This was an extreme case. Most of us pro-lifers do not advocate taking the life of an abortion Dr just to stop abortions. it makes no sence. I find it a little comical that all of you who are pro-choice chose to call people like me anti-choice. maybe I should just start calling you anti-life, sound fair?
127
iib @124, you're a native American? What nation?
Incidentally, there aren't that many god-haters out there these days, since Christians screwed up that whole agreement that all gods exist, just some are more worthy of worship than others. We just tend to believe that gods don't exists, and non-existent beings are not worthy of our hatred.
As for the Abrahamic god, He's a right bastard within His own mythology, and I can see why His followers fear him. This is why the Gnostics re-conceived of Him as the Demiurge, and regarded this world as a prison worthy of escape. But still those of us non-believers don't hate Him, so much as resent the ill behavior of His disciples.
CeCilios Woman @126, welcome to SLOG. When they were merely names, I would occasionally regard the opposing sides to the argument as Pro-life and Pro-choice, though a recent thread (a link to which I left above @122) noted that no-one is exactly pro-death, are they, now? Nowadays, myself, I refer to the different sides as proponents or opponents of abortion access, which suits as neutral terminology.
One of the issues we've addressed (and is demonstrated by current events) is that the pro-life attitude is very narrowly applied. The same conservative sects that insist that personhood begins at conception are also pro-war and pro-capitol punishment, and are against health-care, education and welfare benefits that might encourage women to be mothers, rather than terminating unwanted pregnancies. Pro-life circles also tend to be against comprehensive sex education and birth control access, both of which would reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, and correspondingly, the number of abortions.
As things are, both sides of the issue want there to be fewer abortions, and there are numerous approaches to this delicate matter, but pro-life activism appears to only focus on one: obstructing or denying women access to abortion procedure services.
So, frankly, the term pro-life is rather misleading. Perhaps the twentieth-century styled abortion access obstructionist would be more appropriate?
kim in portland @123, Thank you! The academic respect is certainly mutual. I've learned much from your insights. There's a story behind my avatar, though I'll save it for another time and less controversial venue.
More...
Incidentally, there aren't that many god-haters out there these days, since Christians screwed up that whole agreement that all gods exist, just some are more worthy of worship than others. We just tend to believe that gods don't exists, and non-existent beings are not worthy of our hatred.
As for the Abrahamic god, He's a right bastard within His own mythology, and I can see why His followers fear him. This is why the Gnostics re-conceived of Him as the Demiurge, and regarded this world as a prison worthy of escape. But still those of us non-believers don't hate Him, so much as resent the ill behavior of His disciples.
CeCilios Woman @126, welcome to SLOG. When they were merely names, I would occasionally regard the opposing sides to the argument as Pro-life and Pro-choice, though a recent thread (a link to which I left above @122) noted that no-one is exactly pro-death, are they, now? Nowadays, myself, I refer to the different sides as proponents or opponents of abortion access, which suits as neutral terminology.
One of the issues we've addressed (and is demonstrated by current events) is that the pro-life attitude is very narrowly applied. The same conservative sects that insist that personhood begins at conception are also pro-war and pro-capitol punishment, and are against health-care, education and welfare benefits that might encourage women to be mothers, rather than terminating unwanted pregnancies. Pro-life circles also tend to be against comprehensive sex education and birth control access, both of which would reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, and correspondingly, the number of abortions.
As things are, both sides of the issue want there to be fewer abortions, and there are numerous approaches to this delicate matter, but pro-life activism appears to only focus on one: obstructing or denying women access to abortion procedure services.
So, frankly, the term pro-life is rather misleading. Perhaps the twentieth-century styled abortion access obstructionist would be more appropriate?
kim in portland @123, Thank you! The academic respect is certainly mutual. I've learned much from your insights. There's a story behind my avatar, though I'll save it for another time and less controversial venue.
130
The government was so quick to put environmental activists on the terrorists list. These anti-abortion crusaders have shot Tiler before, were constantly sending him death threats, firebombed his clinic (I believe at least twice), harassed his patients and now they have murdered him in cold blood. They continue to harass women and doctors, threaten people's lives, fire bomb clinics and commit many acts of violence. And the country ignores the fact that they are not on the terrorist list.
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