Find Your Valentine
Slog
News & ArtsFriday, May 29, 2009
The Ladies Fuck You, Amazon
Posted by Erica C. Barnett on Fri, May 29, 2009 at 11:07 AM
Mere months after a public outcry forced Amazon.com to ban a Japanese rape-simulation video game called "Rapelay" (to win, you stalk and rape women and force them to get abortions), the company is doing it again—this time, selling a video game called "Stockholm: An Exploration of True Love." The setup is that you've kidnapped a woman and must make her "fall in love with you," by poisoning her, raping her, and psychologically torturing her. Because abusing women is a game, get it?
Via Feministing.
1
the only 5 star review has been updated.
"Ok I didn't notice the hidden features before. Holy god."
That's comedy gold.
"Ok I didn't notice the hidden features before. Holy god."
That's comedy gold.
2
But it's only an array of little pixels on a screen, so it has no real power - like the pedophilic manga is just lines on paper. And really, we'd rather sociopaths played games like this instead of acting this out in real life. Because we all know it's one or the other, right?
3
Just curious why your anger isn't directed at the maker of these products rather than a third-party vendor.
4
@2. The discussion about the pedophilia manga was whether or not it should be a crime to make or possess it, not whether it has any "real power".
I don't think these video games (or the manga) should be criminal, but I do think they have "power" and are in terrible taste (understatement of the day). I'm really surprised that Amazon would carry them -- Amazon has standards for what they sell, and it's pretty shocking that these games made the cut (at least initially).
I don't think these video games (or the manga) should be criminal, but I do think they have "power" and are in terrible taste (understatement of the day). I'm really surprised that Amazon would carry them -- Amazon has standards for what they sell, and it's pretty shocking that these games made the cut (at least initially).
6
Pedophile manga = good, rape video game = bad. I'll try to keep this straight.
Amazon didn't "do" anything here, you know; they've got a product up for sale, one of a billion items. And, you know, it's poetry. Art, even. Sick, evil art, but there you go. This is what you were asking for when you asked for censorship to go away. The video game isn't perpetrating rape but depicting it. Rape is an idea; are you afraid of ideas?
Amazon didn't "do" anything here, you know; they've got a product up for sale, one of a billion items. And, you know, it's poetry. Art, even. Sick, evil art, but there you go. This is what you were asking for when you asked for censorship to go away. The video game isn't perpetrating rape but depicting it. Rape is an idea; are you afraid of ideas?
7
To clarify, this latest product is not a video game, but a DVD choose-your-own-adventure thing--like Mad Dog McCree for the 3DO, but without... well, actually, it's a perfect analogy. That game was terrible.
9
Your anger is misdirected if you're upset at Amazon for carrying it but not the game's creators for making it.
10
I found the tag cloud cute:
Check the boxes next to the tags you consider relevant or enter your own tags in the field below.
appalling(41)
disgusting(41)
hateful(41)
misogyny(40)
sexist(39)
vile(36)
gross(35)
horrible(35)
abhorrent(33)
amazonfail(32)
sexism(31)
See all 56 tags...
Check the boxes next to the tags you consider relevant or enter your own tags in the field below.
appalling(41)
disgusting(41)
hateful(41)
misogyny(40)
sexist(39)
vile(36)
gross(35)
horrible(35)
abhorrent(33)
amazonfail(32)
sexism(31)
See all 56 tags...
11
But do they have one where you get points by stealing bottles of cheap wine from grocery stores yet?
12
Should Amazon also stop selling Grand Theft Auto and other video games that depict murder? Murder is bad, too, right? What about books and music? Should they refuse to sell those if they depict evil acts? I'm not defending this particular thing, it sounds awful, but I happen to actually believe in this whole free speech thing, for better or worse. That's the whole point.
And yes, I know Amazon isn't the government and you didn't suggest this product should be illegal, but if Amazon pulls this, then what of GTA and other games?
And yes, I know Amazon isn't the government and you didn't suggest this product should be illegal, but if Amazon pulls this, then what of GTA and other games?
13
Does it matter that this item is sold by amazon.com directly and not a third-party seller? Am I wrong in thinking that this means that someone at Amazon actually said yep, we're going to carry this product (as opposed to all the external vendors that sell things on their site)?
14
that's a little harsh, don't you think erica? amazon is a good company that deals with customer outcry in a timely manner, as with the last rape game. they don't screen every single product--how could they? they'll probably eventually pull this one too. try being more reasoned and calm where your feminist outrage is concerned. it will earn you more respect.
16
Wait.. I'm confused. There's a big outcry when they hide the GLBT titles, but video games offensive to feminist values need to censored?
I find the idea of such video games offensive and distasteful as well, but I would be violating even more important principles by reacting this way. Part of the price you pay to have your expression protected is to also not impose your desire to censor other things, no matter how unpopular or blatantly offensive.
I find the idea of such video games offensive and distasteful as well, but I would be violating even more important principles by reacting this way. Part of the price you pay to have your expression protected is to also not impose your desire to censor other things, no matter how unpopular or blatantly offensive.
17
So a game that features raping women is okay, but hide your books that have anything to do with homosexuals... Way to be awesome Amazon.
18
"Rape is an idea; are you afraid of ideas? "
Fnarf? Yes, RAPE SCARES ME.
That's like saying the gallows is poetry, and that African Americans should not be afraid of "depictions" of it. Or that white sheets and pointy white hats are really just fashion statements.
Would someone please ask the Stranger to stop kissing this jerk's ass? He's no better than the rest of the Slogophiles.
Fnarf? Yes, RAPE SCARES ME.
That's like saying the gallows is poetry, and that African Americans should not be afraid of "depictions" of it. Or that white sheets and pointy white hats are really just fashion statements.
Would someone please ask the Stranger to stop kissing this jerk's ass? He's no better than the rest of the Slogophiles.
19
@13 yes, you are wrong. and it's absolutely insane that you'd think that all of these individual products are individually screened. they are often processed in batches based on large batches of products that all come from the same distributor.
23
I wouldn't say poisoning, raping, and torture is a game. However, I would say that playing a videogame is a game. That's a victimless crime, like lifting a bottle of wine from a QFC.
Come to think of it, that would make a good videogame, too. We could call it Grand Theft Vino. Or Merlot Mania. I can't decide.
Come to think of it, that would make a good videogame, too. We could call it Grand Theft Vino. Or Merlot Mania. I can't decide.
24
I have a solution. Every person in America should make a list of the things they find offensive, and then we can just ban the stuff on the lists.
Problem solved, right?
Problem solved, right?
25
Sigh. I'm disappointed in you people. You should know better. Yes it's sick, abhorrent, etc. But you are using the exact same logic as people who want to ban gay porn use. You can't be in favor banning/censoring stuff because you don't like it. If you are against censorship, you have to always be against it. You can't make special cases, the ACLU understands this, I just wish more people did.
26
@22,
Yes, it does. Any man who claims that objecting to abuse of a human being is merely a feminist value is a fucking scumbag.
Yes, it does. Any man who claims that objecting to abuse of a human being is merely a feminist value is a fucking scumbag.
28
Sales of this disc will almost certainly go up as a result of this posting.
Does that say anything about the usefulness of righteous anger?
Does that say anything about the usefulness of righteous anger?
29
@21. I believe what 16 was referring to was the rather overt misogynist ideology reflected by the game, and, ironically, in your "gotcha" appeal to "human rights" you make feminism sound like a dirty word. Moreover, I think his point is dead-on. We can, I believe, critique these games without censoring them and still call ourselves feminists and humanitarians. In fact, I'm not sure what censorship - if it were even possible - might accomplish in the way of human rights or feminist politics. Some of the vilest, most masculinist agendas have been carried out under censor-happy, conservative and moralistic regimes that would censor such games with one hand while banning abortion with the other.
On a different note, however, if Amazon's decision to carry these games offends you, then, by all means, stop buying media from Amazon! Support local media vendors with whom your politics might hold some sway. Amazon, that great yuppie Wal-Mart of cyberspace, simply doesn't care.
On a different note, however, if Amazon's decision to carry these games offends you, then, by all means, stop buying media from Amazon! Support local media vendors with whom your politics might hold some sway. Amazon, that great yuppie Wal-Mart of cyberspace, simply doesn't care.
30
@17 - the issue with Amazon removing sales rank (not hiding) books on gay subjects a month or so ago turned out to actually be a "glitch" in their cataloging system combined with human error. Amazon didn't handle the problem very well initially, responding instead with pat PR crap, and in one case sending a customer service email that further confused the issue (the rep who sent it didn't know what had happened).
It was a mess, but it was also an object-lesson in what happens when a mass outcry outpaces the truth. See this insightful mea culpa from Clay Shirky, who initially participated in #amazonfail.
It was a mess, but it was also an object-lesson in what happens when a mass outcry outpaces the truth. See this insightful mea culpa from Clay Shirky, who initially participated in #amazonfail.
31
@18, do you think that all depictions of the gallows should be banned? What about other depictions of the Stockholm Syndrome? should everything that scares YOU be banned? Should all unpleasant things be hidden?
Please note that this video game or whatever the fuck it is has never raped anyone. Purchasing a copy of it is not rape; watching it is not rape. Rape is against the law. Depictions of rape are not, and are extremely common in popular culture.
Should Amazon be permitted to sell DVDs of Lars Von Trier's movies?
These are serious questions. You don't appear to be a serious person, so I doubt you'll be able to answer them.
Please note that this video game or whatever the fuck it is has never raped anyone. Purchasing a copy of it is not rape; watching it is not rape. Rape is against the law. Depictions of rape are not, and are extremely common in popular culture.
Should Amazon be permitted to sell DVDs of Lars Von Trier's movies?
These are serious questions. You don't appear to be a serious person, so I doubt you'll be able to answer them.
32
@26, w7ngman's point was that there are plenty of games that depict horrible crimes against human rights, and the only people that really object to their existence are histrionic 'concerned parents' groups'. This is a particularly sick-making version of a game, but it IS a game.
ECB's stated objection is NOT to human beings being harmed one way or the other, but the depiction of harm; the same type of depiction as of murder and racial hatred and the predatory sex trade in a game like GTA.
That said, Amazon is almost certainly not the appropriate marketplace for games like that, and they will be right to take it down from their website.
ECB's stated objection is NOT to human beings being harmed one way or the other, but the depiction of harm; the same type of depiction as of murder and racial hatred and the predatory sex trade in a game like GTA.
That said, Amazon is almost certainly not the appropriate marketplace for games like that, and they will be right to take it down from their website.
33
I'm sorry, but when slog ran all the photos of the commentators at the most recent slog-happy, well, it ruined slog for me.
34
This isn't a freedom of speech or a censorship issue. Amazon is a corporation, not the government or a public entity.
I'm not saying that this product shouldn't be made or sold (i.e., it shouldn't be banned), just that I'm surprised that Amazon is the one selling it. Somehow, to me that makes the product seem more "acceptable" or "mainstream." I don't know -- maybe I need to adjust my view of what Amazon is, but I think of it as more like Target or other similar stores in terms of its brand. If Amazon's direct sales really has a "we sell anything, no matter what" approach, then fine, I guess this product should stay.
I'm not saying that this product shouldn't be made or sold (i.e., it shouldn't be banned), just that I'm surprised that Amazon is the one selling it. Somehow, to me that makes the product seem more "acceptable" or "mainstream." I don't know -- maybe I need to adjust my view of what Amazon is, but I think of it as more like Target or other similar stores in terms of its brand. If Amazon's direct sales really has a "we sell anything, no matter what" approach, then fine, I guess this product should stay.
35
That's entirely your issue and not mine. There's nothing "gotcha" about getting men to understand that rape is not something that only women, or feminists, should be concerned about. That you implicitly believe that it is, and that my criticism of #16 hurts feminism somehow, speaks volumes about YOU.
ironically, in your "gotcha" appeal to "human rights" you make feminism sound like a dirty word.
That's entirely your issue and not mine. There's nothing "gotcha" about getting men to understand that rape is not something that only women, or feminists, should be concerned about. That you implicitly believe that it is, and that my criticism of #16 hurts feminism somehow, speaks volumes about YOU.
39
#18, "Would someone please ask the Stranger to stop kissing this jerk's ass?"
Don't get mad just because he's above your reading level.
Don't get mad just because he's above your reading level.
40
@16 & @17:
The issue with this game and Amazon's glitch would only be comparable if a search for women's studies or feminism returned only misogynistic, pro-rape, and anti-woman materials.
As Anthony mentioned @30, it was a combination of things (mostly to do with metadata coding and cataloging tags) - and it did highlight that as a company they have some flaws/weaknesses in their system, but it is not the same situation as selling a game or other item that is objectionable.
Sadly there are games and other things like this that are far worse for sale (usually on right-wing websites), but like it or not they exist. While there may not be much that can be done to stop their production and distribution - awareness and education on why the actions and values/viewpoints within these materials are wrong is often the best way to counter their effects.
The issue with this game and Amazon's glitch would only be comparable if a search for women's studies or feminism returned only misogynistic, pro-rape, and anti-woman materials.
As Anthony mentioned @30, it was a combination of things (mostly to do with metadata coding and cataloging tags) - and it did highlight that as a company they have some flaws/weaknesses in their system, but it is not the same situation as selling a game or other item that is objectionable.
Sadly there are games and other things like this that are far worse for sale (usually on right-wing websites), but like it or not they exist. While there may not be much that can be done to stop their production and distribution - awareness and education on why the actions and values/viewpoints within these materials are wrong is often the best way to counter their effects.
41
Julie @ 34: Disagree. It is a censorship/freedom of speech issue. Censorship can be harmful when it comes from any large institution, public or private. US government censorship (1st amendment issues) are only one type of censorship we should be concerned about, but the reasons we are concerned about that should also give us reason to be concerned about corporations engaged in similar behavior.
Amazon should be content-agnostic. We should criticize (but not ban) the game's makers.
Amazon should be content-agnostic. We should criticize (but not ban) the game's makers.
42
Then how do items for sale get chosen at Amazon? There's not *one* person who actually looks at the products and their descriptions and makes the decision to put it up for sale or not? Not even the webminion who's making up the product page? No checks or balances for these kinds of products that could cause marketing problems?
Too weird... .
Too weird... .
43
@34 talk about the central problem with the internet. With an inventory as large and varied as Amazon's, I'd bet that almost certainly there is not a human being working for their management that specifically knows that this product is being sold. I can't imagine they would continue selling it if someone in the chain of command were notified. (ECB did you send them an email?) I don't think they want to be known as the kind of place you can buy any disgusting, fleabag product that exists, but they clearly have to work harder at filtering stuff like this.
44
@42 I'd also bet that most of their product pages is produced off a template. For small-sellers like this game, they probably don't have anyone to look at specifics - they just plug in a product picture, description and price and boom, it's there on the internet.
Hell, it's already unavailable on Amazon. Someone must have said something.
Hell, it's already unavailable on Amazon. Someone must have said something.
45
#20,26: your point is kind of stupid regardless. Yes, it's a human value. So is EVERY OTHER FEMINIST VALUE. Do you troll feminist blogs screeching "How DARE you not call that a HUMAN value!" No, I don't fucking think so.
47
@38: Yeah, and we should establish a Comics Code, too. ;)
Oh, wait, we already did that during the 1950s and ruined the lives and livelihood of many very talented men and women (since the comics biz was one of the few areas where women and minorities could seek employment).
@38 is referencing the witch hunt against comics, which is nicely detailed in the book "The Ten-Cent Plague: The Great Comic-Book Scare and How It Changed America" by David Hajdu.
Oh, wait, we already did that during the 1950s and ruined the lives and livelihood of many very talented men and women (since the comics biz was one of the few areas where women and minorities could seek employment).
@38 is referencing the witch hunt against comics, which is nicely detailed in the book "The Ten-Cent Plague: The Great Comic-Book Scare and How It Changed America" by David Hajdu.
48
Regarding amazonfail being a "glitch", I'm curious as to whether anyone has found any evidence for that other than the company's word.
49
@41 - I think it's a little crazy to say that a business should be content-agnostic. Should Disney sell porn? Should Wal-mart sell snuff films?
If Amazon has defined itself as a place that is inherently content-agnostic, that's fine (i.e., "we will directly sell anything that is legal") -- but, that's not my impression of them (my impression is obviously influenced by their marketing and could be wrong...). If they have some standards, then it's a little surprising that this product met them.
That being said, I think that most likely what's happening here is Amazon does not have a very good review process for what is listed and the product was posted. If people complain and highlight the situation, perhaps Amazon will review it, decide it's unacceptable, and take it down. Or perhaps not.
If Amazon has defined itself as a place that is inherently content-agnostic, that's fine (i.e., "we will directly sell anything that is legal") -- but, that's not my impression of them (my impression is obviously influenced by their marketing and could be wrong...). If they have some standards, then it's a little surprising that this product met them.
That being said, I think that most likely what's happening here is Amazon does not have a very good review process for what is listed and the product was posted. If people complain and highlight the situation, perhaps Amazon will review it, decide it's unacceptable, and take it down. Or perhaps not.
50
I'm sorry, but I have a hard time getting upset at Amazon for selling this. I think that the people who made it are misogynist trash, but I doubt that Amazon was aware until now, and they've made it unavailable.
Amazon sells books on every conceivable topic, and representing many conflicting viewpoints--why would anyone think that these materials represent Amazon's views?
I'm sorry, but this just doesn't seem like a constructive use of our energies.
Amazon sells books on every conceivable topic, and representing many conflicting viewpoints--why would anyone think that these materials represent Amazon's views?
I'm sorry, but this just doesn't seem like a constructive use of our energies.
51
Often, after reading an ECB post and the resulting thread, I imagine Erica leaning back in her chair with the same satisfied smile that graced Lardass's vomit-specked lips after starting the Barf-O-Rama.
52
@45,
He also compared books about GLBT issues to a rape game. He does not deserve the benefit of the doubt.
And, no, motherfuckers like him do not consider feminist values to be human values. Your (willful) ignorance of how some men see women as not fully human and thus don't fully identify with violence perpetuated against women is not my problem.
He also compared books about GLBT issues to a rape game. He does not deserve the benefit of the doubt.
And, no, motherfuckers like him do not consider feminist values to be human values. Your (willful) ignorance of how some men see women as not fully human and thus don't fully identify with violence perpetuated against women is not my problem.
53
I wish someone would get put in charge of what I am allowed to buy and not allowed to buy. I am not able to make such decisions for myself.
55
As a gamer, myself, I have to point out that while I am quite fond of gunning down Imperial Stormtroopers, or in the case of the GTA games, resisting arrest by rampaging downtown in a tank, I have no interest in engaging in these activities in real life.
That said, games such as Rapelay or Stockholm shouldn't be thrown off Amazon because they depict female abuse (unless, say, someone was actually nonconsensually abused in the making of the game). It should be thrown off Amazon if it's a bad game.
That said, has anyone other than Mr. Hidden Features, Holy God actually played it?
That said, games such as Rapelay or Stockholm shouldn't be thrown off Amazon because they depict female abuse (unless, say, someone was actually nonconsensually abused in the making of the game). It should be thrown off Amazon if it's a bad game.
That said, has anyone other than Mr. Hidden Features, Holy God actually played it?
56
Your problem is that you don't actually have an argument.
Or perhaps it's your inability to do anything but steer the conversation back to your f-bomb-laden ad hominems and style over substance fallacies. So he's a motherfucker, and he used a dumb example. Glad we've got that established. Shall we get back to the issue at hand, please?
Keep talking about how everything isn't your problem, too, that's bound to win you some support.
Or perhaps it's your inability to do anything but steer the conversation back to your f-bomb-laden ad hominems and style over substance fallacies. So he's a motherfucker, and he used a dumb example. Glad we've got that established. Shall we get back to the issue at hand, please?
Keep talking about how everything isn't your problem, too, that's bound to win you some support.
58
I enjoy playing GTA III, because in real life I am also a car thief, spree killer, and mafia thug.
59
I can't help but wonder if people's reactions would differ if it were not only females being raped and tortured, but both genders. That being said, while I find this personally repellent, even frightening, it is in fact not actual humans being exploited and mistreated. Now, the torture-porn genre of movies, that shit is NASTY. People who get off on watching that shit have ISSUES.
60
@49
Julie, thanks for your great posts here. I thought I was the last person in America who understands the definition of censorship. Control of speech by the government is such an enormous evil that it deserves its own word.
Julie, thanks for your great posts here. I thought I was the last person in America who understands the definition of censorship. Control of speech by the government is such an enormous evil that it deserves its own word.
61
Erica, you are barking up the wrong tree. Go after the video game producer and the people who buy it, not retailers.
Basically, you are asking Amazon (and presumably every other game retailer) to review their entire inventory and ban items deemed morally objectionable. That's a really bad idea, and it would inevitably backfire. Amazon should not be in the business of censoring material. That's a far greater evil than a few obnoxious video games.
Basically, you are asking Amazon (and presumably every other game retailer) to review their entire inventory and ban items deemed morally objectionable. That's a really bad idea, and it would inevitably backfire. Amazon should not be in the business of censoring material. That's a far greater evil than a few obnoxious video games.
62
@52:
>He also compared books about GLBT issues to a rape game. He does not deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Uhh no. You did that when you assumed I equated the two, and completely missed my point.
Look, this game is repugnant. I wouldn't even want to know the person who came up with it.
Calling for a ban on all misogynistic media from some (not all) factions of feminist activists has been done. Where do you draw the line? Porn? BDSM porn? Sexually submissive women who like to play out rape fantasies? Are they traitors to a cause? There's a difference between what we act out on stage and do in real life.
Rape in real life certainly is a terrible transgression of human values, regardless of the genders involved.
To say that censorship is censorship regardless of where it comes from is miles away from saying real life rape is only a feminist value or that games like this somehow lead to it.
>He also compared books about GLBT issues to a rape game. He does not deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Uhh no. You did that when you assumed I equated the two, and completely missed my point.
Look, this game is repugnant. I wouldn't even want to know the person who came up with it.
Calling for a ban on all misogynistic media from some (not all) factions of feminist activists has been done. Where do you draw the line? Porn? BDSM porn? Sexually submissive women who like to play out rape fantasies? Are they traitors to a cause? There's a difference between what we act out on stage and do in real life.
Rape in real life certainly is a terrible transgression of human values, regardless of the genders involved.
To say that censorship is censorship regardless of where it comes from is miles away from saying real life rape is only a feminist value or that games like this somehow lead to it.
63
@48 - There's no reason to think it was anything but what they said it was because the other explanation doesn't make any sense. Do you really think Amazon decided one day to remove the sales rank from all of those books on purpose? Why would they do that? Amazon is hardly a right-wing company. That it was intentional was assumed by the people who were upset about it before any explanation came out. It was exacerbated by some clueless PR moves on Amazon's part.
64
As a long-time ACLU supporter, it often feels disheartening to spend so much time defending "fringe" expression, but at the same time, it is absolutely necessary to defend free expression and stand against censorship in order to maintain a free society. Yes, this makes a lot of people uncomfortable, but it's a game. So, if you go ahead and ban it, then what? Y'know, that BDSM porn looks kinda similar, even if they *say* it's consensual, it's pretty uncomfortable, we'd better ban that too! And really, isn't any form of bondage porn uncomfortable and demeaning? Ban! And you know, that "doggystyle" position is degrading and the name is reminiscent of bestiality, we'd better ban all porn with that too... I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.
This expression is not causing some incredible social blight. The fact that the reaction of just about everyone to it has remained uniformly negative has proved that point. And for those that it would appeal to, chances are they already have those impulses or tendencies, and I'd rather they get their jollies with a video game than, you know, actually going out and kidnapping someone. So, while it's perfectly acceptable to personally protest such material and those selling it, relegating such things to government censorship, simply to satisfy your own personal comfort level, creates more problems than it solves, especially as an increase in government censorship, regardless of the content, always has a chilling effect on free expression and dissent.
This expression is not causing some incredible social blight. The fact that the reaction of just about everyone to it has remained uniformly negative has proved that point. And for those that it would appeal to, chances are they already have those impulses or tendencies, and I'd rather they get their jollies with a video game than, you know, actually going out and kidnapping someone. So, while it's perfectly acceptable to personally protest such material and those selling it, relegating such things to government censorship, simply to satisfy your own personal comfort level, creates more problems than it solves, especially as an increase in government censorship, regardless of the content, always has a chilling effect on free expression and dissent.
65
@35 WHERE exactly did I imply that rape was ONLY an issue for feminists and women? I did no such thing. However, if you read the post about this game, you will notice that rape and other forms of violence are being enacted, in this case, on figures of women. Also, one might suggest that said games are supporting certain masculinist fantasies. Basically feminist politics intersects in multiple ways with the politics of "human rights." However, I think that presenting rape as a generalized issue of "human rights" as you're overtly doing, ignores the historically established gender dynamics of rape. Because rape has been, historically, a political and economic technology reserved, in large degree, for WOMEN'S bodies and for the "feminization" of the body, as it has been a technology for securing masculinist and patriarchal power structures, feminism has a unique stake in the analysis of this violence. Appeals to generalized "human rights" threaten to elide the role that gender has played and continues to play in modes of domination -capitalism, genocide, slavery, "enhanced interrogation techniques," etc.
66
Oh, Erica. I forgive you for being a batshit crazy feminazi who wants to ban everything she doesn't like.
67
So, just a question, how much did sales of this game skyrocket after Erica gave it a free plug by hating on it?
Well?
Well?
68
@61, of COURSE Amazon is in the business of censoring material. They do it all the time. EVERY business "censors" the list of products they sell; your grocery store refuses to sell some items every single day.
The thing here is, Amazon sells SO MANY products, and the process is so automated, that no one ever sees what most of them are. They don't carry extremist "white power" stuff, and it's unlikely to slip in, simply because the "white power" stuff is mostly excluded from their supply chain. But if some got in, there it would be, and people would be writing "fuck you Amazon" posts over that.
Until they took it down. They take down objectionable material every day, I'm sure. Their system isn't designed to approve or disapprove every product upon arrival, but it does let them go in and zap stuff afterward.
Like they did with this one.
It's absurd beyond belief to interpret the existence of this game on their website to support for the ideas inside it. They don't even know what those ideas are; they don't know or care what ANY ideas are.
The thing here is, Amazon sells SO MANY products, and the process is so automated, that no one ever sees what most of them are. They don't carry extremist "white power" stuff, and it's unlikely to slip in, simply because the "white power" stuff is mostly excluded from their supply chain. But if some got in, there it would be, and people would be writing "fuck you Amazon" posts over that.
Until they took it down. They take down objectionable material every day, I'm sure. Their system isn't designed to approve or disapprove every product upon arrival, but it does let them go in and zap stuff afterward.
Like they did with this one.
It's absurd beyond belief to interpret the existence of this game on their website to support for the ideas inside it. They don't even know what those ideas are; they don't know or care what ANY ideas are.
71
So, if this was a game that involved stalking and torturing to death gay men (extra points if you get them to first give you a blow job!), I would just be a silly faggot to be upset that Amazon was selling it?
72
@67: That's a quaint little idea you have there that any of the kids nowadays still /buy/ a PC game.
I guaran-damn-tee you there are hacked no-registration torrents of this out there.
I guaran-damn-tee you there are hacked no-registration torrents of this out there.
73
Honestly, as a woman, I have no problem with this game. Why? Because I understand that fantasy is not reality. I have rape fantasies, and I spent YEARS of my life ashamed of these fantasies because I was told that fantasizing about rape lead to real rape. For most of my teen years I tried desperately to refocus my erotic energies, to make my sexuality more socially acceptable. When I found myself daydreaming about rape, I moved my thoughts to other things and hoped I would be aroused by them instead. I was not. Time passed, and I was beyond ashamed. I hated myself, and I hated my sex drive.
Did any of this change my fantasies? No, it did not. Instead, I eventually abandoned my attempts to change my sexual desires and embraced the philosophy that just because I like to fantasize about something doesn’t mean I want it to actually happen. I understand that my fantasies about rape have nothing to do with actual rape. Frankly, I don’t see why I would be any different for people who fantasize about raping others. I think they should also be able to say, "I like to fantasize about this, but I know that it wouldn’t work out in reality."
Did any of this change my fantasies? No, it did not. Instead, I eventually abandoned my attempts to change my sexual desires and embraced the philosophy that just because I like to fantasize about something doesn’t mean I want it to actually happen. I understand that my fantasies about rape have nothing to do with actual rape. Frankly, I don’t see why I would be any different for people who fantasize about raping others. I think they should also be able to say, "I like to fantasize about this, but I know that it wouldn’t work out in reality."
74
Fuck you, ECB. What a stupid, pointless post. Do you think an Amazon employee plays/uses every item they sell and writes the description? No, they rely on product data from the vendors or distributors. This goes for the number of pages in a book, track lists and running times on CDs, and (gasp!) descriptions of video games.
What were you histrionic morons so upset about with the amazonfail thing? Oh yeah, you thought (all evidence to the contrary), that Amazon was suppressing items because they contained content that was offensive to some. What are you advocating now?
Yes, rape is bad. I do not want to play this game. But if Wal-mart sells games where I can torch children with a flamethrower (Fallout 3), is this so much worse? Grow up and find a real problem to bitch about.
What were you histrionic morons so upset about with the amazonfail thing? Oh yeah, you thought (all evidence to the contrary), that Amazon was suppressing items because they contained content that was offensive to some. What are you advocating now?
Yes, rape is bad. I do not want to play this game. But if Wal-mart sells games where I can torch children with a flamethrower (Fallout 3), is this so much worse? Grow up and find a real problem to bitch about.
75
So, basically, I guess my main question is something along the lines of rape is worse than murder? really?
You must certainly be aware that there are a million fantasy killing games already easily available everywhere. Why would a fantasy raping game be exponentially worse? I just don't get it.
If I thought for a minute that a game like that would increase the chances of real rape being committed, then it would be different. I'm not able to imagine that being true, though.
As @74 asked,
if Wal-mart sells games where I can torch children with a flamethrower (Fallout 3), is this so much worse?
I would go a step further and ask, how could this even be considered comparable to torching children with a flamethrower?? It's not even in the same league, is it?
You must certainly be aware that there are a million fantasy killing games already easily available everywhere. Why would a fantasy raping game be exponentially worse? I just don't get it.
If I thought for a minute that a game like that would increase the chances of real rape being committed, then it would be different. I'm not able to imagine that being true, though.
As @74 asked,
if Wal-mart sells games where I can torch children with a flamethrower (Fallout 3), is this so much worse?
I would go a step further and ask, how could this even be considered comparable to torching children with a flamethrower?? It's not even in the same league, is it?
77
It is not a censorship issue to ask Amazon to stop carrying it. That is a customer service issue. Customers can choose whether or not this i a company they want to support based on what they choose to carry and promote. And Amazon can choose whether or not to stop carrying it based on feedback and possible loss of revenue. Or even based on human decency; though I doubt they will take the latter into account.
Censorship is if people were asking for it to be illegal to make/buy.
Censorship is if people were asking for it to be illegal to make/buy.
79
I don't get the controversy over Amazon carrying this game. There was a ton of controversy over the Manhunt series of video games, which epitomize the torture-porn genre. It seemed like everyone was mad a Rockstar for making the games, but I didn't hear from anyone who expected Amazon not to carry them.
@59: I think, if anything, reactions to this might be tempered if the game included rape of both men and women. But just like there's a bigger market for female porn, I'm sure there's a bigger market for female rape simulators.
@59: I think, if anything, reactions to this might be tempered if the game included rape of both men and women. But just like there's a bigger market for female porn, I'm sure there's a bigger market for female rape simulators.
80
@73
I am a woman as well and I appreciated your comment. I feel the same way, I sometimes like to fantasize about rape. But I would NEVER actually want to be raped. I don't think we have any control over what arouses us. There's nothing wrong with any fantasy.
I am a woman as well and I appreciated your comment. I feel the same way, I sometimes like to fantasize about rape. But I would NEVER actually want to be raped. I don't think we have any control over what arouses us. There's nothing wrong with any fantasy.
82
@20: Take a deep breath and stop the name calling. Objecting to rape is a human value. Objecting to the existence of sexist video games is, arguably, a feminist value.
84
Just wondering, would people be so quick to scream "Freedom of speech" if the game was called say Klansmen and you scored points by lynching blacks. Or Gaybashers and you won by attacking the most homosexuals?
85
no, fuck you, ECB, for demanding censorship while getting paid by the Stranger. Fuck you, indeed.
86
I agree with ECB on almost every feminist point she makes, but here I take my stand. If you censor Japanese products depicting acts which are horrible and almost universally illegal in the world, my girlfriend will gut you with a pitchfork. In a drawing - not IRLs - because like most people who like vile art, she never engages in vile acts. I bum my lady out sometimes by telling her someday a supposed liberal democrat will ban her favorite ART from ever being legally seen in the USA. Cool your fucking jets and think twice before calling for censorship, or Mapplethorpe will shit all over you in the afterlife.
87
@84, yup.
I'd be pissed if Amazon was selling it, and they'd likely stop as soon as someone brought it to their attention. But - whoever produced it has a right to do so, and a right to peddle it from his front step, since no retailer in their right mind would touch a game like that.
I'd be pissed if Amazon was selling it, and they'd likely stop as soon as someone brought it to their attention. But - whoever produced it has a right to do so, and a right to peddle it from his front step, since no retailer in their right mind would touch a game like that.
88
@87 Exactly. No retailer would've touched a game like that, but plenty will touch one's targeting women. Plenty of the people on here who think ECB has no right requesting Amazon to ban the one targeting women would likely find it objectionable if it were other groups being targeted (hence their silence at the question).
I find it interesting that people do not understand the difference between requesting a retailer to stop selling/promoting this game and a demand that the manufacturer be commanded to stop it.
I find it interesting that people do not understand the difference between requesting a retailer to stop selling/promoting this game and a demand that the manufacturer be commanded to stop it.
89
@88 I meant a game which fell into any of the above categories - racist, anti-semitic or misogynistic violence; Amazon *did* take the game down within hours of when this post went of it, probably because someone (maybe even ECB) alerted them to the extremely distasteful nature of the game.
It wouldn't surprise me if Amazon did, for short periods of time (before someone sent an email) sell games that fall into any of the above categories.
As for the request/demand business, I'd note that said issue didn't come up until a few commenters were attacked rather viciously for saying, basically, that the producer/manufacturers had a right to produce the game, and that if Amazon wanted to ruin their reputation, they had a right to sell it.
It wouldn't surprise me if Amazon did, for short periods of time (before someone sent an email) sell games that fall into any of the above categories.
As for the request/demand business, I'd note that said issue didn't come up until a few commenters were attacked rather viciously for saying, basically, that the producer/manufacturers had a right to produce the game, and that if Amazon wanted to ruin their reputation, they had a right to sell it.
90
@87: Do you really think "Gaybasher" would be more protested than Stockholm? Maybe on the Slog but I think it's still much more acceptable to attack gays in most venues.
91
#2: One or the other?! Are you insane? Clearly it's both! Obviously video games lead to real-life behavior, which is why there are LITERALLY millions of carjackings and murders every year by those who've played any of the Grand Theft Auto games. Why, you can hardly walk down a street without seeing a young hoodlum jump out in front of a car, drag the driver out and drive off, only to have the same thing happen to him about 20 yards further down the road. It's the apocalypse - THE APOCALYPSE, I SAY! Goodness, it's great that there are still some of us around who can tell the difference between reality and fantasy while rightly pointing out that NO ONE ELSE CAN. Keep up the good work, I say - but don't understate it! Clearly any simulation of any activity performed by anyone EVER is going to cause them to run out and do the real thing!
92
Dear Sirs,
I find the game highly offensive.
I find Amazon highly offensive.
I find the comments highly offensive.
It's a very simple fact that these games TRULY DO have an impact on those who play them. It is undeniable and to even consider otherwise is to be naïve at best and a sociopath at worst.
I would never want to play this game and firmly believe that no one should ever be allowed to play it either. It is dangerous and evil with only one possible outcome – the mass creation of serial rapists.
Is that really where we want to be spending our collective creative energy? Where are the games on how to improve the world? Why can't someone see the value of positive games compared to the on-going danger of violent games.
A few years ago I had the misfortune to try one of these so-called "games" a flight simulator game. After only 2 weeks of obsessive compulsive play, I jumped in an F-16 fighter jet and went on a 36-hour joy ride.
Yet another game, gave me the wisdom and experience to ward off attacks by alien space invaders. After another game I was ready to maneuver flying ostriches against pterodactyls with a jousting lance.
The wide-reaching implications of cause and effect go on and on.
We must put an end to this madness at once.
Thank you for your attention and please send me my power-up to totallyserious@ireallymeanit.org
I find the game highly offensive.
I find Amazon highly offensive.
I find the comments highly offensive.
It's a very simple fact that these games TRULY DO have an impact on those who play them. It is undeniable and to even consider otherwise is to be naïve at best and a sociopath at worst.
I would never want to play this game and firmly believe that no one should ever be allowed to play it either. It is dangerous and evil with only one possible outcome – the mass creation of serial rapists.
Is that really where we want to be spending our collective creative energy? Where are the games on how to improve the world? Why can't someone see the value of positive games compared to the on-going danger of violent games.
A few years ago I had the misfortune to try one of these so-called "games" a flight simulator game. After only 2 weeks of obsessive compulsive play, I jumped in an F-16 fighter jet and went on a 36-hour joy ride.
Yet another game, gave me the wisdom and experience to ward off attacks by alien space invaders. After another game I was ready to maneuver flying ostriches against pterodactyls with a jousting lance.
The wide-reaching implications of cause and effect go on and on.
We must put an end to this madness at once.
Thank you for your attention and please send me my power-up to totallyserious@ireallymeanit.org
93
Free Speech is Free Speech -- the Stranger staff just about had a fit with the whole Amazon "butt-fucking literature" ratings a while ago and now we have ECB on her "I am woman hear me roar" horse because they *won't* censor/remove these. As usual, Amazon gets blamed regardless of what they do.
These games sound nasty, but they appear to be legal, so WTF is the beef?
These games sound nasty, but they appear to be legal, so WTF is the beef?
94
@84 Yes I would still claim they have the right to produce it and I have the right to think it's trash. An even more pertinent question is, how many people here would have had any issue with a game where you're a woman who scores points by castrating men?
95
@ 94, if it was a good game...
(Good: good meaning: fun, bug free, adequate production values, intriguing storyline, etc. etc.)
...not one jot [of issue].
(Good: good meaning: fun, bug free, adequate production values, intriguing storyline, etc. etc.)
...not one jot [of issue].
96
Hi All - this is Max Shearson, outreach coordinator at RMD Global. I'll keep this short: the response and outrage to "Stockholm: An Exploration of True Love" is understandable. After all, it does challenge core ideas of modern American society. But I think that some of the reactions have been quick and emotional, rather than careful and considered.
At our site, authors, filmmakers, and even the CEO of RMD Global have shared their views on the recent Banning of "Stockholm." The site is http://rmdglobal.net/stockholm/ I know that anyone as dedicated to a cause as many of you are will want to consider all rational perspectives.
All we're asking is that you consider a few other points of view, and, if you agree, to sign the online petition, or even leave any helpful comments.
-Max
At our site, authors, filmmakers, and even the CEO of RMD Global have shared their views on the recent Banning of "Stockholm." The site is http://rmdglobal.net/stockholm/ I know that anyone as dedicated to a cause as many of you are will want to consider all rational perspectives.
All we're asking is that you consider a few other points of view, and, if you agree, to sign the online petition, or even leave any helpful comments.
-Max
98
"I bum my lady out sometimes by telling her someday a supposed liberal democrat will ban her favorite ART from ever being legally seen in the USA." There are thousands of tongue-clucking faux-liberal politicians out there. Liebermans, every Blue-Dog Dem, etc. Even the Clintons play conservative "think of the children" on a fairly regular basis.
99
Does the Stranger realize they've hired a totalitarian, close-minded, anger/fear-filled writer whose schtick is to advocate taking away of freedoms? Her fear of public transportation being available to the public, her fear of the existence of Republicans, her pre-civilized rants about how she's unwilling to find common ground with those that oppose her perspective (and a very myoptic vision of culture and politics it seems to be.)... it really grates on the nerves.
Ah well, I guess there are worse things than to be the local, female liberal version of Rush Limbaugh. Erica sure does get her posts numbers up so, I guess that means she's doing her real job and some people actually do feel her writing captures the extent of their thoughts.
Ah well, I guess there are worse things than to be the local, female liberal version of Rush Limbaugh. Erica sure does get her posts numbers up so, I guess that means she's doing her real job and some people actually do feel her writing captures the extent of their thoughts.
100
Because everyone knows that playing this game means you're currently beating women.
You sound like Rob Mckenna, telling us that every single person who looks at naked children is currently holding children as sexual slaves. I understand the acts are bad, but there's a clear line between fantasy and reality, between a disagreement and a crime.
You sound like Rob Mckenna, telling us that every single person who looks at naked children is currently holding children as sexual slaves. I understand the acts are bad, but there's a clear line between fantasy and reality, between a disagreement and a crime.
101
I hate big media because they do this kind of stuff. That is why I spent so much time make an online directory of online bookstores that serve as alternatives to Amazon. This company has gotten so big that it literally controls what we can and cannot read. Same for movies and video games. All it has to do is buy the other venues/media outlets and then we are all doomed. At http://www.bookstorelistings.com, online bookstores are categorized by what category of books they carry. So you can actually find bookstores on there that specialize in books about womens rights.
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
Liveblogging the Washington State House Debate and Vote
onIN FAVOR OF GAY MARRIAGE by Eli Sanders -
SL Letter of the Day: Life Sentence by Dan Savage
-
SL Letter of the Day: Daddy Loves Who? by Dan Savage
-
Required Listening: Howard Stern on Ellen, JC Penney, Bullied Gay Kids, Rosie, Santorum, Bachmann, et al by Dan Savage
-
Jeff Bezos' Racist, Pro-Life, Anti-Evolution, Rape-Apologist Search Engine by Goldy
-
Crowdsourcing Uncut Police Video from the Dec. 12 Occupy Protest at the Port of Seattle by Eli Sanders
-
State Legislator Testifies That His Opposition to Same-Sex Marriage Came to Him from a Commercial for Jack in the Box by Christopher Frizzelle
-
"Let me be the first one to say: My business will refuse to participate in a same-sex marriage ceremony," by Republican Representative Matt Shea of the Spokane Valley by Eli Sanders
-
The Onion Is on a Roll: "Iran Worried U.S. Might Be Building 8,500th Nuclear Weapon" by Charles Mudede
-
"I don't know if I want to be here [if gay marriage passes]," by Republican State Senator Jay Rodne of North Bend by Eli Sanders
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (101) RSS