Thursday, May 28, 2009
Religion Meanwhile in Wasilla
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, May 28, 2009 at 12:19 PM
Pastor Ron Hamman writing in the "Religion Views" column in the local daily considers the odds that the antichrist will be a homosexual:
Sodomy is the only sin for which God came down from heaven to destroy. Though God dealt with many other sins in various ways, there is no other for which he came down from heaven to verify and destroy.... But will the Antichrist be a homosexual? Having seen what the Bible says of sodomy, we have no further to look than the book of Daniel, chapter 11 to find our answer. It says, “Neither shall he [Antichrist] regard... the desire of women....” As I said at the onset, I am not the first to draw attention to this, but the verbiage is clear.
Is it?
But good news first: if the antichrist is a homo that means Barack Obama can't be the antichrist, Michele's arms notwithstanding. Unless...
You've gotta be careful when people start using ellipses and brackets in selected bible quotes. So I looked up the passage that Rev. Hamman references to prove that the antichrist is a 'mo. Now I'm not a biblical scholar—and neither, it seems, is Rev. Hammon—but it seems clear that Daniel isn't talking about the antichrist in chapter 11 or any other chapter. The last few chapters of Daniel are given over to "apocalyptic visions," which read like stories of then-impending regional conflicts, references to existing kingdoms and empires, and not to the end-times fireworks favored by Christian nutters. It's just Daniel riffing on some kings who'll be ruling the area soon, some of them good, some of them bad. There's no second coming hinted at in Daniel, no rapture, no Jesus references at all. (Daniel is in the Old Testament.) Here's the passage Rev. Hamman cites— whole chapter here—with brackets and ellipses removed:
11:36 The king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods; and he shall prosper until the indignation be accomplished; for that which is determined shall be done.11:37 Neither shall he regard the gods of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall magnify himself above all.
Read the entire chapter and it's clear why a modern conservative might regard this particular king as a potential antichrist: when he isn't waging war he's out there collecting taxes. So even if he's not the antichrist he's still a close second: a socialist. But a homo? Okay, so he's not all that interested in women. But that seems tied to the his narcissism and self-regard—he exalts himself in all things, blah blah blah—and not necessarily because this particular king is doing (or going to be doing) dudes. Considering Daniel's low opinion of this king, Rev. Hamman, I'm thinking Daniel would've included dude-banging on his bill of particulars if this king would indeed be banging dudes. Why would Daniel leave that out? Why would he task an Alaskan pastor with inferring homosexual acts thousands of years after he wrote this chapter?
But look on the bright side, Rev.: this means Barack Obama could still be the antichrist. We'll just have to wait and see.
In the meantime... Biblical Brackets & Ellipses is a game that anyone can play!
[Rev. Hamman] shall come even on the fattest... and he shall do that which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers... Yes, they who eat of his dainties shall destroy [Rev. Hammon].
Could these verses from Daniel be any clearer? Rev. Hamman likes to blow loads on the faces of hugely obese sex partners ("comes on [not in] the fattest"), enjoys Twittering ("he shall do that which his fathers have not done"), and will one day bleed to death after his penis is bitten off during a group oral sex encounter gone awry ("they who eat of his dainties will destroy [Rev. Hamman].")
That's too bad for Rev. Hamman, but verbiage—mine and Daniel's—couldn't be clearer.
A couple of other quick thoughts: sodomy was the only sin that so pissed off God that he came down from heaven and destroyed the place? What about the flood? And did God Himself come down to the twin cities to verify the sodomitical goings on? Was He inspecting the sheets for evidence of buggering or something? And careful, Rev. Hammon, you don't want to attract attention to the bits of the bible where the authors acknowledge the existence of other gods, competing gods, even if their god gets to be the god-of-gods.
This line appears at the end of Rev. Hamman's think piece:
Ron Hamman is pastor for Independent Baptist Church of Wasilla. Contact him at 357-4229.
The area code up there is 907.
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1
I had a fear I was the Antichrist when I was a young little believer. It was all based on this weird dream I had where Jesus was trying to build this shitty warehouse in the middle of a river of sparkling acid, and he kept telling me it can't be complete until I do my part. At no point did he call me the Antichrist, but I was sure that's what he was saying, even though it doesn't make any sense. You know how dreams are. Anyway, there was also a black teenage boy in the dream, trying to get out of a hallway of blasting speakers. I woke up and ran to my parents bedroom in tears. Oddly enough, and this is the only recurring dream I've had, I had it again a couple years later when I kind of had a brain. The warehouse was finished and I wasn't allowed in, and Jesus was nowhere to be seen.
Being a kid is the best drug ever.
Being a kid is the best drug ever.
3
Don't forget the Tower of Babel. The Bible says God came down personally to destroy that, and cause everyone to speak different languages too. According to the Bible, if they people succeeded in building the tower, they would have reached, and gotten into Heaven without dying first, and going through God's patented soul sorting process. Well, that just wouldn't do. I guess God has since moved Heaven a bit higher since then?
6
I like how God punishes for raping angels, and the apparently obvious big problem with that isn't the A) having sex with angels or B) rape, but that sodomy was used to do the raping.
7
I thought we'd already determined that you are the antichrist, Dan. Daniel Keenan Savage = 6 + 6 + 6.
That's all the proof I need to believe that the antichrist is a homosexual.
That's all the proof I need to believe that the antichrist is a homosexual.
9
The way the bible hates on women, you'd think they would assume the antichrist is going to be female.
If so, I hope I get to sleep with her!
If so, I hope I get to sleep with her!
11
@7,
Hmmm... good point. But wait, Ronald Wilson Reagan ALSO equals 6+6+6!
That means Reagan was a homo, right?
Hmmm... good point. But wait, Ronald Wilson Reagan ALSO equals 6+6+6!
That means Reagan was a homo, right?
12
Messenger: "Lord! LORD! Come quick! The citizens of Sodom are committing rape!"
God: "Yeah, OK."
Messenger: "No, my Lord, they're raping your angels! The ones you sent."
God: "mm-hmm. I'll get right on it."
Messenger: "But my Lord! They're GAY raping them. Up the ASS. With SODOMY!"
God: "WHAAAT? SODOMY?!?! GRAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUGH!" *Hellfire* *Brimstone*
God: "Yeah, OK."
Messenger: "No, my Lord, they're raping your angels! The ones you sent."
God: "mm-hmm. I'll get right on it."
Messenger: "But my Lord! They're GAY raping them. Up the ASS. With SODOMY!"
God: "WHAAAT? SODOMY?!?! GRAAAAAAAUUUUUUUUUUGH!" *Hellfire* *Brimstone*
14
Is it desire women, or women's desire? He may totally like fucking the ladies, but not care if they get off on it.
Man, the antichrist is a DICK.
*Gasp* its Cheney!!
Man, the antichrist is a DICK.
*Gasp* its Cheney!!
15
7, Well, the Angels didn't actually get raped. Lot offered up his virgin daughters to the rape mob instead. What a great dad. You know what his daughters got him for Father's Day? Sons/grandsons. Each daughter had sex with him, and got pregnant. But that was after they fled the doomed city, and Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt. No wonder Lot was so horny. Ain't the Bible fun!
16
Also, don't many straight people "commit" sodomy on a regular basis as well? Maybe the antichrist is a little kinky...
17
And here I may end up working in Alaska for a couple years. Oh well, at least I'd be working in the wilderness/ocean, and not in the middle of any weird church settlement towns. Wish me luck. If I return to the northwest with a King James Bible, a bruised-up wife, and a Matt Sheppard in Hell sign, you all have permission to put me out of my misery.
PS- No offense to Alaskans reading this. You're not all like that, blah blah blah. Feel free to make some "socks in sandals" jokes about northwesterners if you want.
PS- No offense to Alaskans reading this. You're not all like that, blah blah blah. Feel free to make some "socks in sandals" jokes about northwesterners if you want.
19
This is fun! Here's another passage about Rev. Hammon having drunken sex with his daughters:
Fun Fact: Know who that quote is actually about? Lot. Yeah, the same Lot who had to take his family and run from the Homostorm™.
So, for those keeping track:
straight drunken incest=good.
Homosex=bad.
And now you know!
Genesis 19:30-36
[Rev. Hammon] and his two daughters left [Wasilla] and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in [Wasilla]. He and his two daughters lived in a cave.
One day the older daughter said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is no man around here to lie with us, as is the custom all over the earth. Let's get our father to drink wine and then lie with him and preserve our family line through our father."
That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and lay with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
The next day the older daughter said to the younger, "Last night I lay with my father. Let's get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and lie with him so we can preserve our family line through our father." So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went and lay with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.
So both of [Rev. Hammon]'s daughters became pregnant by their father.
Fun Fact: Know who that quote is actually about? Lot. Yeah, the same Lot who had to take his family and run from the Homostorm™.
So, for those keeping track:
straight drunken incest=good.
Homosex=bad.
And now you know!
21
14: That was also my take on it, when I read Hammon's edited quote. The antichrist is just terrible at sex, and has no interest in improving. Sounds like a lot of fundies to me.
24
Sodom and Sodomy is entirely misappropriated by contemporary interpreters of the bible.
Try to follow...
One thing that the bible does is to try to codify behavior to reflect societal anecdotes, problems, and hardships at the time (for instance, certain meats and shellfish being off-limits or a sin because they were actually quite dangerous at the time do to unsanitary practices)
Anyway the sin here might have more to do with the rape and overpowering of other men in the context of war rather than in the loving and sexual kind of sodomy as we now know it.
The fable/biblical passage is probably an attempt to deter such behavior that is common in warring societies, which both towns were.
Try to follow...
One thing that the bible does is to try to codify behavior to reflect societal anecdotes, problems, and hardships at the time (for instance, certain meats and shellfish being off-limits or a sin because they were actually quite dangerous at the time do to unsanitary practices)
Anyway the sin here might have more to do with the rape and overpowering of other men in the context of war rather than in the loving and sexual kind of sodomy as we now know it.
The fable/biblical passage is probably an attempt to deter such behavior that is common in warring societies, which both towns were.
28
Dan,
I agree its silly for Rev. Hamman to ponder whether the Anti-Christ is homosexual or not. But, if Rev. Hamman wants a candidate for Anti-Christ how about this healthy hetero:
http://a11news.com/1985/desmond-hatchett…
21 children BEFORE the age of 30 y/o! Yeah, he's pretty "bad" all right. What an irresponsible prick. Those poor children and those idiot women, their mothers. WTF! A bloody tragedy.
I agree its silly for Rev. Hamman to ponder whether the Anti-Christ is homosexual or not. But, if Rev. Hamman wants a candidate for Anti-Christ how about this healthy hetero:
http://a11news.com/1985/desmond-hatchett…
21 children BEFORE the age of 30 y/o! Yeah, he's pretty "bad" all right. What an irresponsible prick. Those poor children and those idiot women, their mothers. WTF! A bloody tragedy.
29
19, and to top that off, 2 Peter 2 says that Lot was "a righteous man". Pushing your daughters out the door so that they can be raped seems more wrong-eous.
32
Besides the pure idiocy of taking this text and applying it to anything happening today, the quote from Dan 11:37 seems to differ depending on which translation you are using. My Catholic Bible (THE NEW AMERICAN BIBLE) reads: "He shall have no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one in whom women delight; for no god shall he have regard, because he shall make himself greater than all." This is very different. The point being is the subject of this verse puts himself before everyone's gods -- even some god that women of his day seemed to like a lot (whoever that might have been). The anotation of the text proffered by the version of the Bible I have says that "[i]nstead of venerating Apollo, one of the gods of his ancestors, Antiochus venerated and even identified himself with Zeus Olympios, whom the Romans equated with the god of their fortress in Rome, Jupiter Capitolinus, the god of strongholds." So this Rev. Idiot can't even read his own damn scripture. What a jerk!
33
I have always understood and read Chapter 11 in Daniel to be a chapter containing prophecy:
Prophecies concerning Persia and Greece (11: 2-4)
Prophecies concerning Egypt and Syria (11: 5-35)
Prophecies concerning the antichrist (11: 36-45)
vs. 37 (NIV) He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the one desired by women, no will he regard any god, but will exalt himself.
"The one desired by women," is a reference to Christ and his being born of a woman.
vs. 37 (The Amplified Bible) He shall not regard the gods of his fathers or Him [to Whom] women desire [to give birth -- the Messiah] or any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all.
vs. 37 (New Living Translation) He will have no regard for the gods of his ancestors, or for the god beloved of women, or for any god, for he will boast that he is greater than them all.
"or for the god beloved of women," is viewed as a reference to Christ, born of a woman and loved by Mary, Martha, Mary Magadlene, Mary the mother of Joses, Salome, and of course his mother Mary.
I don't grasp Mr Hamman's connection at all.
Prophecies concerning Persia and Greece (11: 2-4)
Prophecies concerning Egypt and Syria (11: 5-35)
Prophecies concerning the antichrist (11: 36-45)
vs. 37 (NIV) He will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the one desired by women, no will he regard any god, but will exalt himself.
"The one desired by women," is a reference to Christ and his being born of a woman.
vs. 37 (The Amplified Bible) He shall not regard the gods of his fathers or Him [to Whom] women desire [to give birth -- the Messiah] or any other god, for he shall magnify himself above all.
vs. 37 (New Living Translation) He will have no regard for the gods of his ancestors, or for the god beloved of women, or for any god, for he will boast that he is greater than them all.
"or for the god beloved of women," is viewed as a reference to Christ, born of a woman and loved by Mary, Martha, Mary Magadlene, Mary the mother of Joses, Salome, and of course his mother Mary.
I don't grasp Mr Hamman's connection at all.
34
After all the kerfuffle over and insistency upon a direct reading of Genesis, who knew the fundies were so adept at inventively interpreting other books as allegories?
35
Sodomy is the only sin for which God personally came down to earth to smite the sinners? Um, did Rev. Hamman's theology classes skip over the entire fucking book of Exodus?! Even if your familiarity with it extends no further than watching "The Ten Commandments", it's hard to miss the part where God himself comes down and kills the firstborn of all the Egyptians...
36
30,
Silly, sodomy is a Middle English word. It isn't in the Bible at all, because they spoke ancient Hebrew and the Septuagint was recorded in ancient Greek. And, Gomorrah is guilty of the same sins of greed, lack of hospitality, denial of justice, neglect of the poor, adulterous worship of pagan gods (it's all in the Old Testament) that people of Sodom were.
Silly, sodomy is a Middle English word. It isn't in the Bible at all, because they spoke ancient Hebrew and the Septuagint was recorded in ancient Greek. And, Gomorrah is guilty of the same sins of greed, lack of hospitality, denial of justice, neglect of the poor, adulterous worship of pagan gods (it's all in the Old Testament) that people of Sodom were.
37
And would someone point out to me where in the Bible we find a good example of a healthy heterosexual marriage? They are few and far between.
39
Whoa, holy shit. You guys are really taking this seriously. Hammon has inadvertently (and successfully) trolled you all.
40
Conclusion: if you're willing to take enough liberties with context, translation and semantics, you can pretty much make the Bible say ANYTHING you want it to. Same with any holy book. This is why religious fundamentalism (the belief that one has a monopoly on truth and interpretation of scripture) is so stupid and so dangerous.
42
Is it too late to join the Alaskan Independece Party? Is it a problem that I don't live in Alaska?
43
I make up Bible verses all the time. It's easy! Just say something ridiculous, and put some numbers after it. I try to always credit the book of Platitudes, Beverly, Irving or Nancy. Sometimes the Gospels of Saul and Bruce.
44
"Sodom was named after sodomy and Gomorrah was named after an even weirder move."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bar3GOzDN…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bar3GOzDN…
45
ah.
The filthy heathen perverts making sport with the Holy Word.
typical.
When the West coast slides into the abyss like a flushed turd on the edge of the bowl know that the last sound you hear will be America howling it's delight...
The filthy heathen perverts making sport with the Holy Word.
typical.
When the West coast slides into the abyss like a flushed turd on the edge of the bowl know that the last sound you hear will be America howling it's delight...
46
I had a religian TA who knew a lot about the Bible and biblical history. I asked him sodom and gomorrah meant, he said it was hospitality.
Lot took care of his guests, and tried to protect them. The rest of the town tried to rape them.
Lot took care of his guests, and tried to protect them. The rest of the town tried to rape them.
47
45, It's my dream that the area west of Iowa and east of Denver (the Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma and most of Texas) will be swallowed up into the earth, and we can celebrate the loss of what is essentially nothing.
and if then everything south of the Mason/Dixon were to separate into a different continent, my joy would be complete. Those people would last about two weeks on their own before dying off.
Oh, and Alaska? I'm just waiting for oil to stop being the fuel of choice, and they can all just freeze to death. Their mummified remains will be another tourist attraction for the summer cruise months.
and if then everything south of the Mason/Dixon were to separate into a different continent, my joy would be complete. Those people would last about two weeks on their own before dying off.
Oh, and Alaska? I'm just waiting for oil to stop being the fuel of choice, and they can all just freeze to death. Their mummified remains will be another tourist attraction for the summer cruise months.
48
Ezekiel 16:49 " 'Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. ...'"
49
Saying that the last recorded acts of the Sodomites -- the demands for same-gender sex -- are proof that they were destroyed for homosexuality is like saying that a condemned man cursing his guards on the way to his execution is being executed for cursing the guards. Sodom was judged worthy of destruction before the incident with Lot and the angels. -- Inge Anderson
Fun facts about Sodom and Gomorrah
~ S'dom (from which we get the city's name) means burnt
~ Amorah (from which, blah, blah, blah) means a ruined heap
~ These names were given after their destruction. Their real names, like the real cities, have been lost to time.
~ The mob at Lot's door asked to have the strangers (the angels) sent out so that they might know the angels.
~ This verb to know, the Hebrew yada is the social version of the verb as in Yeah, I know Jim. We went to school together at state. contrast to shakab as in Oh, yeah, Jim a hottie. I hope to know him at the next party.
~ In a conspicuous error, the NIV translates yada in this case as if it were shakab.
The source of this fascinating data also covers the reason why we think fags are responsible for Gods WMD strike on these two cities. Evidently the Church had been observed to be responsible for the same sins that brought doom upon Sodom and Gomorrah. And I ain't talking about their randy priests and monks.
You can find it here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/dixon_…
Fun facts about Sodom and Gomorrah
~ S'dom (from which we get the city's name) means burnt
~ Amorah (from which, blah, blah, blah) means a ruined heap
~ These names were given after their destruction. Their real names, like the real cities, have been lost to time.
~ The mob at Lot's door asked to have the strangers (the angels) sent out so that they might know the angels.
~ This verb to know, the Hebrew yada is the social version of the verb as in Yeah, I know Jim. We went to school together at state. contrast to shakab as in Oh, yeah, Jim a hottie. I hope to know him at the next party.
~ In a conspicuous error, the NIV translates yada in this case as if it were shakab.
The source of this fascinating data also covers the reason why we think fags are responsible for Gods WMD strike on these two cities. Evidently the Church had been observed to be responsible for the same sins that brought doom upon Sodom and Gomorrah. And I ain't talking about their randy priests and monks.
You can find it here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/dixon_…
50
@48: Ezekiel is a fascinating book. Chapter 23, verse 20: "For she doted upon her paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses."
Maybe she lived in Enumclaw?
Maybe she lived in Enumclaw?
51
@45:
It's a comfort to see that your grasp of geology and plate tectonics appears to be about on-par with Hammon's understanding of his own "holy book".
It's a comfort to see that your grasp of geology and plate tectonics appears to be about on-par with Hammon's understanding of his own "holy book".
52
Mike Malloy(AirAmericaRadio's 9-12am time slot) acted like an Atlanta fundie to get Hamman on his show tonight. Mike was very good at it, but as soon as Hamman hung up after agreeing how evil the Internet is, Mike gave a few sighs and called himself a demon and did the speaking in tongues silliness before going off-air. Amazing how the fundies take it all SO serious, isn't it?
"ha ha...ha."-The Joker.
"ha ha...ha."-The Joker.
53
51
you girls keep repeating that "hospitality" BS about Sodom if it makes you feel better.
I hear death by fire isn't nearly as painful as it looks...
you girls keep repeating that "hospitality" BS about Sodom if it makes you feel better.
I hear death by fire isn't nearly as painful as it looks...
54
WPtG @53, you know, I'd rather be blinded by the searing flash of God's nuclear strike, battered relentlessly but somehow survive the shockwave, and then endure the agony of my irradiated flesh, piece by piece, falling off my bones before I ultimately black out from shock into oblivion than I would one day look in the mirror and realize I've become a belligerent, ignorant, intolerant asshole like yourself.
Just because we don't believe in the popularly regarded misinterpretations of a poorly translated archaic text doesn't mean we don't have a sense of righteousness.
I suspect you and your ilk will be direly disappointed in heaven once you cross through its gaping maw into its threshold, or rather would be, if you still had the capacity to feel disappointment.
Just because we don't believe in the popularly regarded misinterpretations of a poorly translated archaic text doesn't mean we don't have a sense of righteousness.
I suspect you and your ilk will be direly disappointed in heaven once you cross through its gaping maw into its threshold, or rather would be, if you still had the capacity to feel disappointment.
57
dyss @54, as a self proclaimed skeptic, I'll believe it when I see it.
Bill O'Reilly was kind enough to declare my town fair game to the Axis of Evil, dropping it to the bottom of their kill list. Your deity has been left to its own devices.
Bill O'Reilly was kind enough to declare my town fair game to the Axis of Evil, dropping it to the bottom of their kill list. Your deity has been left to its own devices.
60
There is only one passage in the Bible that explicitly addressed WHY God destroyed Sodom.
"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy."
That's from the English Standard Version (available in searchable full text at http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/) and I think it's pretty clear that homosexuality was not really the problem.
"Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy."
That's from the English Standard Version (available in searchable full text at http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/) and I think it's pretty clear that homosexuality was not really the problem.
61
Crap. I almost forgot. That's the unedited whole of Ezekial 19:49. Good times. It's even better in context, so definitely look it up.
63
here in Colorado the queers mostly congregate in boulder and denver counties, they seem harmless, hell, we even have a queer representative.Who cares? why not just live your own life and not worry about who's buggering whom. Although the flamers seem a little ridiculous. but so do all the people who parade up and down the street. Look at me, I'm(fill in whatever you want to be looked at for eg. black, mexican,queer,veteran,christian,irish,or various politicalgroups each promoting their unique brand of stupidity.
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