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News & ArtsThursday, May 28, 2009
News Hearts and Minds
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, May 28, 2009 at 9:04 AM
Photographs of Iraqi prisoner abuse which U.S. President Barack Obama does not want released include images of apparent rape and sexual abuse, Britain's Daily Telegraph newspaper reported on Thursday.... The newspaper said at least one picture showed an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner while another is said to show a male translator raping a male detainee.Others are said to depict sexual assaults with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube.
3
wtf. why would anyone take pictures of this shit? I hope the people that were involved are castrated.
4
"a male translator raping a male detainee"
You can never have too many homosexual Arabic translators, can you Dan...
You can never have too many homosexual Arabic translators, can you Dan...
6
Well how does everyone feel about Obama's decision not to release them now? More than once when I've come to question his actions he has proven himself the wiser in the long run. Already the recession is showing signs of being over, hopefully this opens the door for him to make some real substantive changes in government policy.
9
I'm with @3. Why are there pictures of this to begin with? It's bad enough that this shit goes on, but who takes fucking pictures of it?
10
@6 I don't have any interest in seeing photographs of rape. Just knowing they exist is bad enough.
12
"a male translator raping a male detainee"
You can never have too many homosexual Arabic translators, can you Dan...
Posted by Show and Tell on May 28, 2009 at 9:16 AM
Unregistered Comment on May 28, 2009 at 9:18 AM 5
5
When does the
"Homosexual Military Translator Watch"
begin?
Give me a break. All gay people are not rapists, just like all straight people are not rapists. (Sorry for the obvious comment but these previous posters apparently don't realize this.) We should not be screening out or kicking out gay people from the military. We should screen out and kick out potential f*cking rapists from the military. That means we should not recruit people who've been convicted of violent crimes or people with questionable mental problems. But, you know, that's what happens when you've got an unpopular war and no draft. A lot of the best and the brightest aren't signing up anymore.
The reason Dan started the Youth Pastor Watch was because there seemed to be an inordinate number of cases of sexual abuse involving the clergy, especially youth pastors. When there's more than 1 case of a translator raping a prisoner, then we'll start a Translator Watch.
I think Obama has good reason not to release the pictures, if the military has advised him they would provoke more violence against our troops. However, I hope he releases them after the war is, basically, over. We need to know what some of our military was doing. And hopefully those men and women who tortured and raped will be convicted of war crimes.
You can never have too many homosexual Arabic translators, can you Dan...
Posted by Show and Tell on May 28, 2009 at 9:16 AM
Unregistered Comment on May 28, 2009 at 9:18 AM 5
5
When does the
"Homosexual Military Translator Watch"
begin?
Give me a break. All gay people are not rapists, just like all straight people are not rapists. (Sorry for the obvious comment but these previous posters apparently don't realize this.) We should not be screening out or kicking out gay people from the military. We should screen out and kick out potential f*cking rapists from the military. That means we should not recruit people who've been convicted of violent crimes or people with questionable mental problems. But, you know, that's what happens when you've got an unpopular war and no draft. A lot of the best and the brightest aren't signing up anymore.
The reason Dan started the Youth Pastor Watch was because there seemed to be an inordinate number of cases of sexual abuse involving the clergy, especially youth pastors. When there's more than 1 case of a translator raping a prisoner, then we'll start a Translator Watch.
I think Obama has good reason not to release the pictures, if the military has advised him they would provoke more violence against our troops. However, I hope he releases them after the war is, basically, over. We need to know what some of our military was doing. And hopefully those men and women who tortured and raped will be convicted of war crimes.
13
@6, Obama's decision to go back on his promise and not release them is what led to the Telegraph realizing they must be truly horrible, and dedicate resources to finding reliable sources who could describe them.
Obama's promise put the world in a position of anticipating and preparing to learn the truth. The story could have been, here's how we are willing to expose the shame of what has been done in our name, and here is how we will try to make up for it and prove this won't happen again.
Instead, the story is now that we are truly cowards who hide the truth from the world, and that there must be even more and worse yet to be leaked.
The story is much worse since Obama decided to go back on his word to the world on this one.
Obama's promise put the world in a position of anticipating and preparing to learn the truth. The story could have been, here's how we are willing to expose the shame of what has been done in our name, and here is how we will try to make up for it and prove this won't happen again.
Instead, the story is now that we are truly cowards who hide the truth from the world, and that there must be even more and worse yet to be leaked.
The story is much worse since Obama decided to go back on his word to the world on this one.
14
@11 Is your point that there are gay criminals out there too? Does this surprise anyone at all? Seriously, why do you have to be such a North Korea about it?
15
I understand the distinction between so-called enhanced interrogation and/or methods that may be considered torture and abuse: one is sanctioned through the chain of command and one is not.
However, as the details and the breadth of this abuse becomes more known, one has to wonder the validity of the 'a few bad apples' defense applied to Private Lynndie England et al.
If the prison's culture - surely shaped and sanctioned by commanding officers - is such that abuse is disturbingly heinous and increasingly common, does the sanctioning of that culture by superior officers not push those acts from abuse to torture?
However, as the details and the breadth of this abuse becomes more known, one has to wonder the validity of the 'a few bad apples' defense applied to Private Lynndie England et al.
If the prison's culture - surely shaped and sanctioned by commanding officers - is such that abuse is disturbingly heinous and increasingly common, does the sanctioning of that culture by superior officers not push those acts from abuse to torture?
17
I'm not fan of the bush administration, but I'll believe it when I see it. How the fuck are we supposed to verify the claim? Sounds like some bullshit to me.
18
It is important to keep in mind that rape is a violent act that not only hurts but humiliates the victim. It is about power.
I agree with Matt @7 that the perps who committed the rapes (and one shouldn't rule out female personnel from the list of possible rapists) identify as heterosexual. Furthermore that the rapes weren't driven by any type of sexual desire - but rather from the 'need' to subjugate, control, and break the person being raped.
Rape has long been used as a tactic (to instill terror) in warfare and other hostile engagements against both women AND men.
It is an act that is meant to dehumanize the victim and make them realize that they have no control over what happens to them.
The question was raised "Why take pictures?" If the victim is aware that their torture is being 'recorded' - that can further add to the feelings of despair, since there is an implication that rapist/torturers are acting with the consent of an higher authority - thus there is nothing to be gained by complaining or appealing to someone higher in authority since they probably not only know, but approve.
I agree with Matt @7 that the perps who committed the rapes (and one shouldn't rule out female personnel from the list of possible rapists) identify as heterosexual. Furthermore that the rapes weren't driven by any type of sexual desire - but rather from the 'need' to subjugate, control, and break the person being raped.
Rape has long been used as a tactic (to instill terror) in warfare and other hostile engagements against both women AND men.
It is an act that is meant to dehumanize the victim and make them realize that they have no control over what happens to them.
The question was raised "Why take pictures?" If the victim is aware that their torture is being 'recorded' - that can further add to the feelings of despair, since there is an implication that rapist/torturers are acting with the consent of an higher authority - thus there is nothing to be gained by complaining or appealing to someone higher in authority since they probably not only know, but approve.
19
@17,
In other words, you don't want to believe it. There are verified accounts of service members murdering detainees, and you don't want to believe they're capable of rape?
In other words, you don't want to believe it. There are verified accounts of service members murdering detainees, and you don't want to believe they're capable of rape?
20
These pictures do NOT need to be released to the general public and if they are released, they need to make sure the victims are COMPLETELY unidentifiable.
21
@19 Don't put words in my mouth. I am very well aware of what people are capable of. What I am saying is I don't accept unverified claims as fact. When other people who have seen the pics step forward, that's when I will accept the claim.
22
My jaw dropped when I read this. I hope hope hope that these things didn't happen. People will riot and burn this country down. This is the worst thing I've heard in forever! As if waterboarding weren't horrible enough. This sounds like the kind of shit serial killers! OMG!
25
Just a couple of nights ago I asked my wife why the Bush administration would torture but not rape. Rape has the same psychological breaking down effects as torture and the same bogus justifications apply to it as to torture. "Butt sex isn't that bad, 18 year old girls do it on film for $800."
In any case, all that stuff about acts that aren't equivalent to organ failure or death apply as much to rape as to torture. Even so, I thought that this was a line the Bush administration would not cross even if the line doesn't really make that much sense. I was wrong.
In any case, all that stuff about acts that aren't equivalent to organ failure or death apply as much to rape as to torture. Even so, I thought that this was a line the Bush administration would not cross even if the line doesn't really make that much sense. I was wrong.
26
@21,
I'm not putting any words in your mouth. You don't want to believe it.
Sounds like some bullshit to me.
I'm not putting any words in your mouth. You don't want to believe it.
27
@26 Yes, It does sound like bullshit to me. And when it is verified by other sources, it may not sound like bullshit to me. What the fuck is so hard to understand? That I need more than one source before accept something as fact?
Did you get dropped on your head when you where a child? Or are you just an insufferable cunt?
Did you get dropped on your head when you where a child? Or are you just an insufferable cunt?
28
@26 and you do want to believe it. They're both defensible positions, as the article quotes only one credible source from either side. Sure, the Pentagon has a vested interest in covering something like this up, but the Telegraph has a vested interest in coming up with interesting news. Back off rotten unless you've got a stronger argument.
32
Ahem. This is a distraction. It further concentrates the interest on the horrors of a handful of rogue shitheads at Abu Ghraib, and actually STRENGTHENS, not weakens, the argument that Charles Grainer and company thought all these atrocities up themselves. That's not particularly outrageous. The real outrage is that these abuses, and the many other worse ones that were not photographed by grunt soldiers and guards, ultimately came from above. That's the story, not some ugly pictures.
The pictures are a distraction, and their release is possibly intended as such. Anything Rumsfeld and Yoo can do to deflect attention onto the Lynddie Englands of this world and off of themselves, right?
The pictures are a distraction, and their release is possibly intended as such. Anything Rumsfeld and Yoo can do to deflect attention onto the Lynddie Englands of this world and off of themselves, right?
34
@32: On the other hand, depositions and trials can point fingers up the chain of command. "Rumsfeld ordered it" is a far more compelling statement when made in a courtroom than in a blog comment.
35
Y'know, I don't want to believe it. Even if we did rape prisoners (it's not like Americans don't already have the reputation of GIs raping civilians wherever they occupy), I want to believe it was a rogue criminal act, and not something ordered (or even condoned) by PSYOPS.
And thus, I want those pictures released, whatever they contain. I want to see what my country did in my good name.
I want those responsible hanging from gibbets.
Regarding Christian morality, A lot of the contemporary Christian sects like to apply Matthew 7:12 and its ilk only to fellow parishioners or, at best, fellow Christians (with the usual exceptions for Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons and Catholics). Anyone else is the enemy and hence deserves no quarter.
In the meantime we, the people, need to look at what we did, whatever we did.
And thus, I want those pictures released, whatever they contain. I want to see what my country did in my good name.
I want those responsible hanging from gibbets.
Regarding Christian morality, A lot of the contemporary Christian sects like to apply Matthew 7:12 and its ilk only to fellow parishioners or, at best, fellow Christians (with the usual exceptions for Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons and Catholics). Anyone else is the enemy and hence deserves no quarter.
In the meantime we, the people, need to look at what we did, whatever we did.
36
Andrew Sullivan's site has a link to some of the pictures from a source in the UK.
http://www.atlargely.com/atlargely/2009/…
Also supposedly there's pics somewhere of a 15 year old boy being ass-fucked by one of the interogators.
http://www.atlargely.com/atlargely/2009/…
Also supposedly there's pics somewhere of a 15 year old boy being ass-fucked by one of the interogators.
37
I thought this was old news, frankly. I remember hearing rumors of this when the first pictures came out and Congress had a session where they saw all of the photos.
39
@30 Too late, you're fucked. You have to keep posting over and over again, announcing that each one is your last word on the matter.
40
@20 You are so right. Releasing those pictures would just mean re-raping those men (boys?). It is disgusting that this ever happened. Those responsible should be prosecuted fully - but releasing the pictures would be cruel.
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