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News & ArtsThursday, May 28, 2009
Crime / Books Comics! They're Not Just for Kids Anymore!
Posted by Paul Constant on Thu, May 28, 2009 at 11:24 AM
In an obscenity first, a U.S. comic book collector has pleaded guilty to importing and possessing Japanese manga books depicting illustrations of child sex abuse and bestiality.
(For the one person who doesn't know: Manga is the word for Japanese comics.) The manga is from the Lollicon subgenre, which depicts explicit sexual acts with (apparently) underage girls. A representative for the Comic Book Legal Defense Fund says: "“The drawings are not obscene and are not tantamount to pornography. They are lines on paper.” (This is perhaps the first lawyerly comment to ever be cribbed from Robert Crumb.)
This raises an important question. On the one hand, I am a huge believer in freedom of the press and artistic expression. On the other hand, I've seen some manga and anime that really squicks me the fuck out, and on a personal level, I would not miss it if it were gone. On the other hand, I really enjoyed Lost Girls, despite the squickiness.
1
Anyone who says any kind of art is just lines on paper doesn't understand the power of images at all. Or they're being totally disingenuous. Or, they're a lawyer.
4
Am I interpreting this right? This person was arrested for having drawings of children being sexually abused? Not for actually committing the crime or consuming something where actual children were exploited? I'm no pedophile apologist, but doesn't that feel a little bit like thoughtcrime?
I mean, why these drawings and not comic books where people are killed, maimed, etc.? Should Frank Miller and anybody who's ever read his stuff be in jail right now?
I mean, why these drawings and not comic books where people are killed, maimed, etc.? Should Frank Miller and anybody who's ever read his stuff be in jail right now?
5
I'm sorry, but underage hentai tentacle pr0n is not ok, no matter if it's in Sailor Moon costumes or otherwise.
6
No one is harmed in the production of comic books. This is tantamount to artistic censorship, and anyone who values art should be appalled, even if they find the manga disgusting.
7
Photographs are just millions of colored pixels, or tiny blobs of CMYK ink, or clumps of oxidized silver.
But it's an interesting question: is it child pornography if no child is involved? With photographic porn, you can keep age records on file, so even if you make them up to look twelve, you can prove they are not. What do you do with a drawing? Is a drawing of rape or murder a crime? What's the technical difference between a drawing of a girl who's 17 years 363 days old versus one who's 18 years 1 day old?
But it's an interesting question: is it child pornography if no child is involved? With photographic porn, you can keep age records on file, so even if you make them up to look twelve, you can prove they are not. What do you do with a drawing? Is a drawing of rape or murder a crime? What's the technical difference between a drawing of a girl who's 17 years 363 days old versus one who's 18 years 1 day old?
8
@Julie in Eugene I agree with you on this. While I think it's disgusting, I don't see where the crime is. Along the same lines shouldn't the makers of (and I guess anyone who showed or watched) 8mm be charged with the same thing since a snuff film was depicted in that movie?
Can someone explain what the actual crime was, other than the guy being creepy?
Can someone explain what the actual crime was, other than the guy being creepy?
9
While I have my thoughts about the squickiness of most of these comic books (TENTACLE RAPE!!!), I agree with 4 and 6. While they may not be to our tastes and offend our sensibilities, they are not illegal.
On the other hand, La Blue Girl, live action, is fucking hysterical.
On the other other hand, underage is still a fetish of many men. Not the plethora of "Lolita" or "Jailbait" porn DVDs in the US and in Japan.
And then there is the case of Traci Lords.
On the other hand, La Blue Girl, live action, is fucking hysterical.
On the other other hand, underage is still a fetish of many men. Not the plethora of "Lolita" or "Jailbait" porn DVDs in the US and in Japan.
And then there is the case of Traci Lords.
10
I'm all for having fantasies in your head, but my gut feeling is that permitting publication of work that celebrates the exploitation of children only encourages other people to fantasize about these things. A certain percentage (however small) will pursue these fantasies to the extent that they'll continue to seek out material that isn't "just lines on paper".
Besides, the "lines on paper" defense is pretty hollow. Are images of child pornography "just pixels on a screen"? Is hate speech spray-painted onto a car "just paint on metal"? We judge the *content* of exploitative material and hate speech in other contexts; the same should be done here.
Besides, the "lines on paper" defense is pretty hollow. Are images of child pornography "just pixels on a screen"? Is hate speech spray-painted onto a car "just paint on metal"? We judge the *content* of exploitative material and hate speech in other contexts; the same should be done here.
11
Yeah, I'm with @6 on this one. The point of banning child pornography is to protect children -- who cannot legally consent -- not to enforce a moral prohibition on the *idea* of sex with children. Which is totally disgusting, but if someone wants to beat off while looking at drawings of horrifying weird pornography, I can't see where the state has a compelling interest in criminalizing that behavior.
Indeed, to the extent that child pornography is something consumed by sick people who have trouble controlling their behavior, manga porn may be the intellectual equivalent of a methadone program.
Indeed, to the extent that child pornography is something consumed by sick people who have trouble controlling their behavior, manga porn may be the intellectual equivalent of a methadone program.
12
I would rather pedophiles beat off to comic book porn instead of searching for (and thereby helping support and spread) real child porn.
13
That... is a fucking stupid law. It makes it the only crime where depicting something illegal can get you charged (randomly, because it's a community standards thing). I know it was probably a monetary thing, but why the hell would you plead guilty to such a stupid law?
14
Aislinn said it best, and I am paraphrasing her: 'it's icky' is not a valid justification to make something illegal.
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Plus, given how those comics are drawn, how do they determine age? Wouldn't they have to indicate within the comic itself the age? It's not like real people, where you can find a birth certificate.
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I'm all for having fantasies in your head, but my gut feeling is that permitting publication of work that celebrates the exploitation of children only encourages other people to fantasize about these things.
Well, I don't think you're all for having fantasies in your head, but that's okay.
And I thought a law was passed a few years back that made the production of fake child porn to still be illegal, i.e. having adults pretend to be underaged.
Well, I don't think you're all for having fantasies in your head, but that's okay.
And I thought a law was passed a few years back that made the production of fake child porn to still be illegal, i.e. having adults pretend to be underaged.
17
there's a great one where naked school children kill each other while having sex. it gave me a boner.
check out 'Ay Papi' as well, quality!
check out 'Ay Papi' as well, quality!
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@10. I guess I just don't see where you draw the line with your argument in the first paragraph. I mean, I think the publication of comic books, first-person shooter video games, etc. that glorify violence and murder only encourages other people to fantasize about these things. A certain percentage (however small) will pursue these fantasies...
Photographs of child porn may just be pixels on the screen, but horrible things were done to an actual human being in the production of those pictures. I see the need to make not just the actual crime illegal, but possession of those images illegal because as a consumer you are supporting the crime itself. Possession of drawings from someone's imagination? I don't see it.
And now I'm squicked out by the fact that I'm arguing for someone who gets off on this stuff... Blech.
Photographs of child porn may just be pixels on the screen, but horrible things were done to an actual human being in the production of those pictures. I see the need to make not just the actual crime illegal, but possession of those images illegal because as a consumer you are supporting the crime itself. Possession of drawings from someone's imagination? I don't see it.
And now I'm squicked out by the fact that I'm arguing for someone who gets off on this stuff... Blech.
19
What exactly IS the standard being used here?
We all recognize and accept that the sexual exploitation of a minor is - and SHOULD be - illegal. But that's not what this is. If a case can be made that a mere illustration of an illegal act can itself be considered illegal, then why stop at child rape? Would not say, illustrations of bank robbery, murder, assault, terrorism, kidnapping, extortion, wanton destruction of property et al (all of which are regularly depicted in mainstream comics, let alone manga) also have to be considered actionable offenses under this standard?
We all recognize and accept that the sexual exploitation of a minor is - and SHOULD be - illegal. But that's not what this is. If a case can be made that a mere illustration of an illegal act can itself be considered illegal, then why stop at child rape? Would not say, illustrations of bank robbery, murder, assault, terrorism, kidnapping, extortion, wanton destruction of property et al (all of which are regularly depicted in mainstream comics, let alone manga) also have to be considered actionable offenses under this standard?
20
1. In a room by yourself draw a doodle of a toddler having sex with a dog.
2. Destroy the drawing.
3. Report yourself to the police who arrest you.
4. Get convicted of a sex crime and register for life for nothing more than the ideas in your head.
2. Destroy the drawing.
3. Report yourself to the police who arrest you.
4. Get convicted of a sex crime and register for life for nothing more than the ideas in your head.
22
The fact that drawings of child porn are illegal just shows that it isn't necessarily about protecting children, it's about throwing icky people in jail.
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@8 The guy wasn't even being creepy, from the Boingboing.net article: "A US manga collector has plead guilty to possession of child pornography because some of the many thousands and thousands of comics he owns depict children in sexual situations."
He's a collector, not a pedo. And yeah, sucky that he pleaded guilty already.
If he is incarcerated for this then everyone who owns a copy of Lolita should go to jail too, and that includes Paul Constant ;>)
I'm with the "no harm, no crime" camp here.
Thoughtcrime indeed.
He's a collector, not a pedo. And yeah, sucky that he pleaded guilty already.
If he is incarcerated for this then everyone who owns a copy of Lolita should go to jail too, and that includes Paul Constant ;>)
I'm with the "no harm, no crime" camp here.
Thoughtcrime indeed.
24
I'd rather he take out his fantasy's on a drawing rather than a human, considering how many people have these drawings, and how easy they are to find anywhere on the internet, I'd like the police force to focus on destroying the internet because that's the only way you're ever going to put a stop to this. He's not a pedo and he's not causing any harm, get him some treatment if you really think what he's doing is wrong, but forcing him to register as a sex offender is only going to further destroy his life, if the idea is to make his (and all our) life better locking him in a jail cell with REAL pedophiles isn't going to accomplish anything save for maybe giving the poor guy aids.
25
""He was a prolific collector," says the lawyer. "He did not focus on this type of manga. He collected everything that was out there that he could get his hands on. I think this makes a huge difference.""
"Congress passed the Protect Act after the Supreme Court struck down a broader law prohibiting any visual depictions of minors engaged in sexual activity, including computer-generated imagery and other fakes. The high court ruled that the ban was overbroad, and could cover legitimate speech, including Hollywood productions.
In response, the Protect Act narrows the prohibition to cover only depictions that the defendant’s community would consider “obscene.”
“It’s probably the only law I’m aware of, [where] if a client shows me a book or magazine or movie, and asks me if this image is illegal, I can’t tell them,” says Eric Chase, Handley’s attorney."
from Wired.com
"Congress passed the Protect Act after the Supreme Court struck down a broader law prohibiting any visual depictions of minors engaged in sexual activity, including computer-generated imagery and other fakes. The high court ruled that the ban was overbroad, and could cover legitimate speech, including Hollywood productions.
In response, the Protect Act narrows the prohibition to cover only depictions that the defendant’s community would consider “obscene.”
“It’s probably the only law I’m aware of, [where] if a client shows me a book or magazine or movie, and asks me if this image is illegal, I can’t tell them,” says Eric Chase, Handley’s attorney."
from Wired.com
27
How realistic does a drawing have to be to qualify? If I drew a pornographic stick figure with an arrow that says '8 years old' is that illegal? Or if I drew one that says '17.9 years' does that qualify as a sex-offense? What if I did it at a 12 year old's drawing proficiency? This is an utterly ridiculous law, and the guy was convicted of a thought crime. Terrible.
28
Seriously, this is a dangerous precedent. In the case of child photographic and video porn, an ACTUAL CRIME has to be committed in its production. In the case of manga/anime/literature, no crime is committed, so how does one draw the line? As others have mentioned, this means anyone who's read Lolita should be arrested. Take it a step further, and any book containing rape/murder/theft/drugs should also be illegal. Oh, you've read "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas?" See you in 15 years. Hey, there was underage drinking in "Superbad." Jail time! Obviously that's nuts.
Hell, I once saw an anime where an underage character was raped. It wasn't meant to be titillating, just part of his dark character development. And it squicked me the hell out. Should I now go to jail? And how can a distinction be reasonably made between violence for the sake of art and violence as sexual thrill?
Let's face it, there are rape-fantasists out there who get off on rape scenes in literature/TV/movies. There are pedophiles who get off on those kind of fictional accounts. IMO, the fact that these non-harmful outlets exist for those people is likely to reduce the likelihood that they'll commit those crimes IRL. I hate to defend the real pedos out there, but what utter, utter bullshit.
Hell, I once saw an anime where an underage character was raped. It wasn't meant to be titillating, just part of his dark character development. And it squicked me the hell out. Should I now go to jail? And how can a distinction be reasonably made between violence for the sake of art and violence as sexual thrill?
Let's face it, there are rape-fantasists out there who get off on rape scenes in literature/TV/movies. There are pedophiles who get off on those kind of fictional accounts. IMO, the fact that these non-harmful outlets exist for those people is likely to reduce the likelihood that they'll commit those crimes IRL. I hate to defend the real pedos out there, but what utter, utter bullshit.
29
#14: Aislinn has never said anything "best" and never will. Aislinn is practically worthless. You, however, are completely worthless.
31
So if a person has sexual fantasies about children, what are they supposed to do? This is one of the very very very very few outlets for that. Are they to just repress these urges? Because that's always been shown to work really well.
I feel bad for pedophiles. I really do. I have my kinks, but they're all perfectly ethical and (for the most part) legal. But for them to act on their sexual urges would be in every respect reprehensible.
Also, I'm apparently the only one who doesn't feel at all bad arguing for the rights of people to create, own, or enjoy this kind of thing, regardless of how I feel about the material personally. I would expect Stranger readers to be more understanding of the immutability of fetishes. You don't get to pick your kinks. You only get to decide how responsibly you handle them.
I feel bad for pedophiles. I really do. I have my kinks, but they're all perfectly ethical and (for the most part) legal. But for them to act on their sexual urges would be in every respect reprehensible.
Also, I'm apparently the only one who doesn't feel at all bad arguing for the rights of people to create, own, or enjoy this kind of thing, regardless of how I feel about the material personally. I would expect Stranger readers to be more understanding of the immutability of fetishes. You don't get to pick your kinks. You only get to decide how responsibly you handle them.
32
@10: To reiterate -- how do you prove the intended age of the drawings -- it's sometimes obvious that something is intended to be a child, but what about something more ambiguous. Say a sexual image of a coach and student: Is the drawing legal if its supposed to be college, but not i it's supposed to be high school? Is it a crime if the jersey says "Seattle Central Schools" but not if it says "University of Washington?" As there are no actual human being involved how can you have "proof of age on file?"
I have definitely seen things posted on scifi fan websites, that could be illegal -- Does anyone remember the (grownup?) video of Harry Potter and Ron Weasley from Second Life? Is that illegal? It was posted all over the place before a cease and desist order -- is that really child pornography?
I have definitely seen things posted on scifi fan websites, that could be illegal -- Does anyone remember the (grownup?) video of Harry Potter and Ron Weasley from Second Life? Is that illegal? It was posted all over the place before a cease and desist order -- is that really child pornography?
33
Child pornography (photographs) are illegal because an illegal act (exploiting a child) was committed in its creation. What illegal act is committed in the creation of a manga? What illegal act is committed by some slimy creep choking the chicken while looking at manga? I may find it personally repellent, but that doesn't make it illegal. If everything I found personally repellent was against the law, there'd be a lot less people trying to merge onto the freeway doing 40 mph (they'd all be jailed).
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@33 Those slow-merging drivers are indeed far more repellent than child porn mangas. *shakes fist at overly passive drivers*
36
@31,
I agree with you too.
I truly pity pedophiles who never act on their impulses and feelings (I don't pity the ones who rape children though, as I'm sure you probably don't either).
If jerking off to comic books that show little kids in sexual situations keeps pedophiles from raping real children, then those comics should be made available to them.
I agree with you too.
I truly pity pedophiles who never act on their impulses and feelings (I don't pity the ones who rape children though, as I'm sure you probably don't either).
If jerking off to comic books that show little kids in sexual situations keeps pedophiles from raping real children, then those comics should be made available to them.
37
It seems nobody here has thought of something: not everybody consuming this kind of porn is imagining themselves in the role of perpetrator. Some of us get off pretending we're the *victims*. I'm a female, 20 years old. I read erotica (and view "lines on paper/a screen" fanart for said erotica) featuring underage female characters being molested and fucked by adult men.
No, I was not abused as a kid, nor do I think that such an experience would have been anything but horrible and traumatizing. This is just like any other rape fantasy, OK? It's fucked up. It's squicky. It turns me on anyway. Now I'm worried that these drawings I have are illegal. Should I go to jail?
No, I was not abused as a kid, nor do I think that such an experience would have been anything but horrible and traumatizing. This is just like any other rape fantasy, OK? It's fucked up. It's squicky. It turns me on anyway. Now I'm worried that these drawings I have are illegal. Should I go to jail?
38
@37: What are you talking about? Women have no agency in matters of sex. They're either victims or objects, but NEVER initiators. I thought that was clear.
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