Wednesday, May 27, 2009
Science News From the Animal Kingdom
Posted by Charles Mudede on Wed, May 27, 2009 at 11:59 AM
What makes us humans? What makes us not humans? Read the BBC story:
Russian officials have taken a five-year-old Siberian girl into care, saying that she had apparently been "brought up" by cats and dogs.The beast that's planted in her human soul will never leave. No amount of language or education can undo it. The beast will pant when she breaths, will bark when ever she talks. The fully human is forever out of reach for the Siberian girl.The girl, who is unable to speak, was discovered living in a squalid flat in the Siberian city of Chita.
Police said she had never been allowed outside and had adopted the behaviour of the animals she lived with.
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1
Clearly you don't know much about plasticity and language acquisition, because her being found at 5 means she does have a chance.
2
Howard - I've read a bit about feral children. I'm no expert, but from what I've heard, the chances are small.
Charles - That link doesn't work.
Charles - That link doesn't work.
3
I have studied feral children extensively, the chances are not small for someone found so young. It's once a child is found past the critical period that the chances diminish drastically. Since the child is 5 she still has a fantastic shot at adapting, learning language (especially since she already seems to understand russian), and growing neural connections in her brain that will allow her to thrive. I think it's ignorant of Charles to assume she will grow up to be inhuman when he has done no research and has no idea about feral children.
6
Wrroooooooong.
What makes us human? I'd argue that reasoning ability is a big part of it.
Panting is a physiological alternative to sweating. She's not going to pant. If she's able to understand Russian, there's a decent chance that she'll be able to speak. She's not going to persist in making dog-like noises once she finds that they don't function as communication.
Beast in her human soul. . . bah. Humans ARE animals. Sure, we have interesting intellects. Other critters have other interesting talents. We're all critters. Setting aside a desperate need to feel special, I don't understand your resistance to that reality.
What makes us human? I'd argue that reasoning ability is a big part of it.
Panting is a physiological alternative to sweating. She's not going to pant. If she's able to understand Russian, there's a decent chance that she'll be able to speak. She's not going to persist in making dog-like noises once she finds that they don't function as communication.
Beast in her human soul. . . bah. Humans ARE animals. Sure, we have interesting intellects. Other critters have other interesting talents. We're all critters. Setting aside a desperate need to feel special, I don't understand your resistance to that reality.
7
excellent story in NYT today about a totally new theory aobut what made humans human: fire.
Digestion takes lots of energy. Cooked food reduces that energy drain therefore hominids with fire were advantaged, evolution-wise.
A most illuminating theory . . . .
Digestion takes lots of energy. Cooked food reduces that energy drain therefore hominids with fire were advantaged, evolution-wise.
A most illuminating theory . . . .
8
Charles,
I couldn't access the link and I do know very little about feral children. That said, I do believe she has a better chance at joining the human race as a functioning adult than many convicts in our prison system today. There are some real beasts among them.
I couldn't access the link and I do know very little about feral children. That said, I do believe she has a better chance at joining the human race as a functioning adult than many convicts in our prison system today. There are some real beasts among them.
9
Howard is correct. I did my thesis on feral children, studied under the people who worked with Genie. 5 years old is nothing. She may not FULLY integrate, but the differences will be minute if she is ministered to properly.
10
I've done a little research on feral children as well...some of them are able to gain some language skills, or at least find their own ways of communicating.
I'm sure you all know the story of Genie, the thirteen year-old girl who was found back in the 70s. I think if Genie could learn sign language and whatnot, this five year-old has a pretty decent shot.
I'm sure you all know the story of Genie, the thirteen year-old girl who was found back in the 70s. I think if Genie could learn sign language and whatnot, this five year-old has a pretty decent shot.
11
Jocelyn - there are almost no examples of feral children a) found this young and b) surviving long enough to be properly studied. Kamala and Amala, for instance, showed promise, but died of smallpox within a few years. Genie was removed from the experiment and put in an adult orphanage, due in part to squabbling amongst the doctors involved. Victor is thought to have been physically disfigured in his vocal apparatus.
However, we do know that children undergoing destruction or removal of the part of the brain responsible for speech can be shifted around during their sensitive period, until an age of puberty (usually given as around 12). Given the proper care, children are both emotionally and neurologically amazingly resilient.
However, we do know that children undergoing destruction or removal of the part of the brain responsible for speech can be shifted around during their sensitive period, until an age of puberty (usually given as around 12). Given the proper care, children are both emotionally and neurologically amazingly resilient.
13
Kat, Howard - I was thinking of this article that I read not too long ago:
http://www.theledger.com/article/2008080…
But, of course, you seem to know more about this kind of thing than I do, so I will yield to your superior knowledge.
http://www.theledger.com/article/2008080…
But, of course, you seem to know more about this kind of thing than I do, so I will yield to your superior knowledge.
15
What No. 1 and No. 12 said.
Human language does not get "fixed" until sometime around puberty; a five-year-old who has not yet developed (human) language *should* be quite able to acquire a human language and speak and use it normally into adulthood--assuming she doesn't have a serious problem such as actual brain damage, etc. With proper care (and one doubts a child can get this in Russia . . . ), as Kat says, I would expect her to make leaps and bounds.
It is extremely likely that she has some kind of rudimentary language or language-like system of communication with which she has interacted with the dogs and cats she lived with. Dogs in particular have a fairly complex social structure and fairly nuanced system of communication and are adapted to live in the vicinity of if not directly with humans. I would fully expect that the dogs and she have developed some kind of system of communication, an interspecies pidgin if you will, that includes elements of dog communication and elements of human communication.
Lucky this child has been found young enough that she has the biggest chance of reintegrating into human society than any other feral child I'm aware of.
Human language does not get "fixed" until sometime around puberty; a five-year-old who has not yet developed (human) language *should* be quite able to acquire a human language and speak and use it normally into adulthood--assuming she doesn't have a serious problem such as actual brain damage, etc. With proper care (and one doubts a child can get this in Russia . . . ), as Kat says, I would expect her to make leaps and bounds.
It is extremely likely that she has some kind of rudimentary language or language-like system of communication with which she has interacted with the dogs and cats she lived with. Dogs in particular have a fairly complex social structure and fairly nuanced system of communication and are adapted to live in the vicinity of if not directly with humans. I would fully expect that the dogs and she have developed some kind of system of communication, an interspecies pidgin if you will, that includes elements of dog communication and elements of human communication.
Lucky this child has been found young enough that she has the biggest chance of reintegrating into human society than any other feral child I'm aware of.
17
Jocelyn: One difference between a child like this and Dani Lierow, who you read about, is that Dani was deprived from virtually *any* stimuli at all, which would effect brain development in a child way beyond mere language acquisition.
A child living in a feral pack of animals would not be stimulus-deprived in the least, and I would expect that child to actually have rudimentary social skills, including an understanding of hierarchies, the difference between work and play, and probably cooperative problem-solving, etc.
A child living in a feral pack of animals would not be stimulus-deprived in the least, and I would expect that child to actually have rudimentary social skills, including an understanding of hierarchies, the difference between work and play, and probably cooperative problem-solving, etc.
18
Jocelyn -
Thank you for the link. There are quite a few false statements in that piece in regards to both Genie and how the foster care system works, but it's written for emotion, not for information. The idea of "Who, Panacek wondered, would choose an 8-year-old who was still in diapers, who didn't know her own name and might not ever speak or let you hug her?" is ridiculous. I used to work at a school for severe physical and mental disabilities, and all of these kids had been adopted, even though there was no chance they would ever be able to do much more than drool or wave vaguely. There's a parent for everyone. An attractive child, even a severely disabled attractive child, has a better chance than a kid with a swollen, reconstituted head and a feeding tube.
Thank you for the link. There are quite a few false statements in that piece in regards to both Genie and how the foster care system works, but it's written for emotion, not for information. The idea of "Who, Panacek wondered, would choose an 8-year-old who was still in diapers, who didn't know her own name and might not ever speak or let you hug her?" is ridiculous. I used to work at a school for severe physical and mental disabilities, and all of these kids had been adopted, even though there was no chance they would ever be able to do much more than drool or wave vaguely. There's a parent for everyone. An attractive child, even a severely disabled attractive child, has a better chance than a kid with a swollen, reconstituted head and a feeding tube.
19
She's better off than being raised in a cult. Even a long established cult that "qualifies" as religion. Did anybody read the way the Catholic Church treats children?
20
Vince - That's quite the subject change. But no, I didn't read about the way the Catholic Church treats children. I read about the way certain bodies and individuals within the Catholic Church (specifically, the clergy) treat children. I also read about the way the Vatican chose to sweep those problems under the rug rather than address them in any real way. I did not, however, read about the way the Catholic Church treats children. I was raised in the Catholic Church, and I was treated just fine.
22
Yeah lots of Irish kids raised in Catholic institutions will agree fer sure. There's no pattern here. Move along. Remember, a Church doesn't do anything at all, only people within it.
24
@22- I'm still not sure how we got on this totally unrelated note, but if you re-read what you said, you'll see that it doesn't make any sense and isn't really an argument to what I said.
25
> The fully human is forever out of reach for the Siberian girl.
I'll agree that shit like she's been through's gonna leave a mark. The kid is only five, after all. That's young enough to pick up a foreign language in only a few months (see the classic Simpsons episode). If she gets the right kind of care, she could well be okay.
I'll agree that shit like she's been through's gonna leave a mark. The kid is only five, after all. That's young enough to pick up a foreign language in only a few months (see the classic Simpsons episode). If she gets the right kind of care, she could well be okay.
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