Thursday, May 21, 2009
Crime Death Penalty for Prostitution
Posted by Dominic Holden on Thu, May 21, 2009 at 11:03 AM
Well, it wasn't actually a death sentence, but they killed her anyway:
Three prison officials have been suspended while the state investigates the heat-related death on Wednesday of a woman who had been placed in an outdoor cage for several hours. [...]Temperatures reached 107.5 degrees Tuesday in Goodyear, where Marcia Powell collapsed after spending nearly four hours in the sun. Powell, 48, was serving a 27-month sentence for prostitution.
The article adds that 79 people have died in the custody of the Arizona Department of Corrections.
I'll never understand why prostitution is a crime... why this woman has to caged in the desert. Is prostitution a wonderful thing that society should support? No. And do unspeakable horrors happen in the industry? Yes. But the criminal market for prostitution—run by pimps and drug addicts—which lacks any accountability for disease prevention, security, or legal recourse when things go south, only compounds the risks. If a John beats her, rapes her, drugs her—she has no protection under the law without risking conviction and jail. Prostitution will continue regardless of whether or not it's illegal. So it's essentially creating a crime in order to punish it. Without regulating the industry, clients and bosses have a carte blanche to exploit down and out women and girls. (Obviously, some terrible things—like underage prostitution—also happen in places like Holland, where prostitution is legal. But the women don't live afoul of the law and have more control over their own business. Moreover, they aren't sentenced to prison and they aren't scarred with criminal records.) By regulating the market, we'd be able to minimize victimization in a rogue industry. As it stands, the cure—a prison term—is worse than the disease. Not that the cure even kills the disease. The cure, in this case, killed the woman.
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1
So Dom, the only way you'll ever get it is to pay for it and you're scared shitless to get busted?
Ditto smoking Pot?
Ditto smoking Pot?
2
Some people (men) claim that prostitution is banned in order to punish men's sexuality. I don't buy that for one fucking second. Prostitution is banned to benefit men, or rather to benefit men who like to go to prostitutes. It allows them to separate the good women who are not whores and should be treated well and the bad women who are whores and can be treated accordingly. Legalize prostitution and you'll kill the boners of a lot of johns who enjoy the power they have over prostitutes.
3
@ keshimeshi,
Don't forget the pimps! If prostitution were legal, there would be no need for pimps! And then men couldn't own "bitches".
Don't forget the pimps! If prostitution were legal, there would be no need for pimps! And then men couldn't own "bitches".
4
US imprisoned population increased 4x since the 1980's. It has nothing to do with making us safer and everything to do with the criminal punishment system and the private prison-industrial complex working very hard to consolidate and grow itself.
This shit will only get worse if we build a new jail in Seattle. Check this graph out: http://www.flickr.com/photos/travisthoma…
Most cities in the region have an incarceration rate of 0.3-0.5 per 1,000 population. Four of them are over 2.0 per 1,000. Why? Three of those four have their own jails. The fourth, Tukwila, is also the blackest, least white city in King and Snohomish counties.
What a fucked up, racist system!
This shit will only get worse if we build a new jail in Seattle. Check this graph out: http://www.flickr.com/photos/travisthoma…
Most cities in the region have an incarceration rate of 0.3-0.5 per 1,000 population. Four of them are over 2.0 per 1,000. Why? Three of those four have their own jails. The fourth, Tukwila, is also the blackest, least white city in King and Snohomish counties.
What a fucked up, racist system!
5
Dominic,
I agree. Prostitution should be legal. We essentially have it already. Think about this question:
What is the difference between an Adult Film Star say Sasha Grey or Ron Jeremy and a common streetwalker (that bane of civilization)? The answer is health insurance. I believe an adult male or female 18 y/o, gay or straight should be allowed to practice prostitution under the law. I don't recommend being one (a prostitute) but if prostitution is legal it will offer protection from pimps & johns, health insurance, more careful (no, one CAN'T do whatever they want with a prostitute) sex, taxable income to the state or federal government and a measure of respect and privacy not scandal (calling one a "Whore!"). Plenty of adults go on to lead normal healthy lives after "working". Many start families as well. I believe it is ridiculous that we allow pornography but not prostitution. After all, the word "pornography" comes from the Greek word for prostitute "pornos".
I agree. Prostitution should be legal. We essentially have it already. Think about this question:
What is the difference between an Adult Film Star say Sasha Grey or Ron Jeremy and a common streetwalker (that bane of civilization)? The answer is health insurance. I believe an adult male or female 18 y/o, gay or straight should be allowed to practice prostitution under the law. I don't recommend being one (a prostitute) but if prostitution is legal it will offer protection from pimps & johns, health insurance, more careful (no, one CAN'T do whatever they want with a prostitute) sex, taxable income to the state or federal government and a measure of respect and privacy not scandal (calling one a "Whore!"). Plenty of adults go on to lead normal healthy lives after "working". Many start families as well. I believe it is ridiculous that we allow pornography but not prostitution. After all, the word "pornography" comes from the Greek word for prostitute "pornos".
6
@2 - I'm willing to bet that a majority of men treat their prostitutes better than they treat their wives.
7
I think most of you are missing the most obvious point, though travito touched on it- these practice are classist. The most common prostitutes that get caught are streetwalkers. Most of those are poor and need the protection of johns because they don't know how to work the system. Sure, the 'escorts' get busted now and then, but they're a lot harder to catch. And most of them don't have johns. Of course, because our society has kept down racial minorities most of them fall into the poor category, and make up most of the busts.
8
kesh - i don't know much about the "some men" you refer to in your first straw-man sentence, but i'm going to disagree with your statement that Prostitution is banned to benefit men, or rather to benefit men who like to go to prostitutes. though some men who patronize prostitutes might get off more because they feel it gives them power over women, i'm not sure that most men get off for that reason, or is it illegal so these men can have power over some women.
aside from that, for your idea to be true -- the idea that something that benefits some men in a group is a gesture to benefit all men in that group -- all men in that group would have to be the same. since not all all men in that group are the same, not all are seeking power over women, then the idea cannot be true.
aside from that, for your idea to be true -- the idea that something that benefits some men in a group is a gesture to benefit all men in that group -- all men in that group would have to be the same. since not all all men in that group are the same, not all are seeking power over women, then the idea cannot be true.
9
I've never understood why sex for money was illegal. Sex itself is legal, and giving someone money is legal. So what basis does the law have for making prostitution illegal?
10
"Selling is legal.
Fucking is legal.
Why isn't selling fucking legal?
Why is it illegal to sell something that's perfectly legal to give away for free?"
-George Carlin
Fucking is legal.
Why isn't selling fucking legal?
Why is it illegal to sell something that's perfectly legal to give away for free?"
-George Carlin
11
I also disagree that prostitution is banned to benefit "men who like going to prostitutes". I think it stems from a puritanical fear of the power of women's sexuality, which in prostitution translates to economic power. Prostitutes can refuse the traditional wife/mother role, which generally leaves women economically powerless, and work in the public sphere, where their sexuality is a means to doing business and making money -- lots of money. That's a threat, if it eliminates the middle man (literally, man). This idea that the ban protects women is crap -- it just makes them vulnerable to pimps, drugs, and asshole law enforcement agencies. If women could control what they do with their own bodies, they could for once take advantage of this oldest of occupations with the same protections that legitimate businesses get.
And plenty of women resent prostitution because they see it as a threat to their marriages, where the one thing they can control is access to sexuality. Both men and women have reasons to control female sexuality, and we're hypocrites if we don't admit it.
@7, very good point.
And plenty of women resent prostitution because they see it as a threat to their marriages, where the one thing they can control is access to sexuality. Both men and women have reasons to control female sexuality, and we're hypocrites if we don't admit it.
@7, very good point.
12
@6,
You're funny.
@8,
You're right. Men who don't go to prostitutes still get to divvy up women between the good and the bad.
Also, countries that have the least objectionable attitudes toward prostitution (most notably, the Netherlands) also have the least objectionable attitudes toward female sexuality -- that is those cultures are least likely to see women as something to be used and abused for sexual purposes. Puts the lie to the "straw man" argument that women (read: feminists) are to blame for prostitution being illegal.
No, most men don't get off on that. Most men who go to prostitutes get off on that. And there are still plenty of men who stand to benefit from controlling women's sexuality in some way, even if they don't patronize prostitutes themselves.
You're funny.
@8,
You're right. Men who don't go to prostitutes still get to divvy up women between the good and the bad.
Also, countries that have the least objectionable attitudes toward prostitution (most notably, the Netherlands) also have the least objectionable attitudes toward female sexuality -- that is those cultures are least likely to see women as something to be used and abused for sexual purposes. Puts the lie to the "straw man" argument that women (read: feminists) are to blame for prostitution being illegal.
i'm not sure that most men get off for that reason
No, most men don't get off on that. Most men who go to prostitutes get off on that. And there are still plenty of men who stand to benefit from controlling women's sexuality in some way, even if they don't patronize prostitutes themselves.
13
@12, Re: "the "straw man" argument that women (read: feminists) are to blame for prostitution being illegal."
No kidding. What a stupid fucking argument. Feminists did not put these laws into place.
No kidding. What a stupid fucking argument. Feminists did not put these laws into place.
14
Fuckin' A dude. What a shitty way to die. In a cage in 107 degree weather.
And, yeah, our whole jail system is one of control and vengeance. Sucks.
And, yeah, our whole jail system is one of control and vengeance. Sucks.
15
@13: You're full of shit, and I have a source to prove it.
http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?Dis…
http://www.historylink.org/index.cfm?Dis…
On November 8, 1910, Washington’s male voters ratified the woman suffrage amendment by a margin of almost two to one. Washington became the fifth state in the nation to grant women’s right to vote. Newly enfranchised women promptly booted Hiram Gill and his cronies out of office and enacted Prohibition in Washington in 1916
16
The way to get rid of prostitution is to put the johns in 107 degree cages. Just like the way to get rid of illegal immigration is to jail the employers. Figure out who has the power, and punish them. Of course, our system works on exactly the opposite principle: punish the powerless, and the powerful retain control.
17
Punishment is a failed system and yet no one considers any alternative to it. Take the punishment and dominance mentalities out of law enforcement and we will start to resemble a civilized society.
Make protection the central concern of the police and the courts and this kind of thing won't happen.
Make protection the central concern of the police and the courts and this kind of thing won't happen.
18
@5, another key difference between prostitution and pornography is that somebody is filming the latter. I recall an article about a brothel in Prague that used this as a loophole, i.e. sign a film release form and they sell videos of your experience that you paid for.
19
kesh - the over-generalizations you've written about men make me a little sad. i do not think most men, nor most men who frequent prostitutes are that way. some men are that way. man men used to be that way. many men see men and women as having roles they fear abandoning yet fail to understand why those roles came into existence or what they mean in modern age.
did i miss something? because, before you mentioned it, i didn't see anyone in this thread say that feminism was responsible for prostitution being illegal. by starting with that sentence you frame your entire point in a negative way.
but the part that makes me sad is the thinking that all/most men want to separate men and women into madonna/whore camps to justify treating them as such.
as mention earlier, plenty of men mistreat their madonnas. apart from that, plenty of men love their whores.
prostitution is illegal for many reasons, i'd guess. one of them is likely that "the bible says it's wrong," and that's all the reason needed for a large body of our population.
did i miss something? because, before you mentioned it, i didn't see anyone in this thread say that feminism was responsible for prostitution being illegal. by starting with that sentence you frame your entire point in a negative way.
but the part that makes me sad is the thinking that all/most men want to separate men and women into madonna/whore camps to justify treating them as such.
as mention earlier, plenty of men mistreat their madonnas. apart from that, plenty of men love their whores.
prostitution is illegal for many reasons, i'd guess. one of them is likely that "the bible says it's wrong," and that's all the reason needed for a large body of our population.
20
when i say justify treating them as such, i mean, to justify having power over them, as you said. some times people liked to be treated dirty in a positive way!
21
Prostitution is illegal for two reasons -
1) a desire among straight men to control women's bodies
2) a fear among straight women that men will cheat on them if given the opportunity
1) a desire among straight men to control women's bodies
2) a fear among straight women that men will cheat on them if given the opportunity
22
@18,
I agree it's a difference but not a key one. I believe prostitution to be "compensation (usually with money but sometimes a gift) for sexual services (gay or straight) rendered between consenting adults 18 y/o or over". Filming or photographing that act or those acts is merely a corollary.
It should be legal and taxed.
I agree it's a difference but not a key one. I believe prostitution to be "compensation (usually with money but sometimes a gift) for sexual services (gay or straight) rendered between consenting adults 18 y/o or over". Filming or photographing that act or those acts is merely a corollary.
It should be legal and taxed.
23
> "Is prostitution a wonderful thing that society should support?"
Licensed, regulated, safe, artistic prostitution practiced by genuinely giving people with true callings, as it was in days of yore and the fiction of Robert Heinlein is.
Licensed, regulated, safe, artistic prostitution practiced by genuinely giving people with true callings, as it was in days of yore and the fiction of Robert Heinlein is.
24
@21
I'd say your second point is more of a reason it was made illegal. It's still illegal because some time in the past 100 years we became a fundie Christian state and powerful men could use prostitution as a way to scare people into voting for him.
I'd say your second point is more of a reason it was made illegal. It's still illegal because some time in the past 100 years we became a fundie Christian state and powerful men could use prostitution as a way to scare people into voting for him.
25
@19
She has repeatedly demonstrated that she has a wildly deranged (and hateful) view of men in general. I have come to assume that she's deeply damaged and psychologically incapable of thinking (particularly about men) objectively to the point of being a complete slave to her subjective delusions.
She has repeatedly demonstrated that she has a wildly deranged (and hateful) view of men in general. I have come to assume that she's deeply damaged and psychologically incapable of thinking (particularly about men) objectively to the point of being a complete slave to her subjective delusions.
26
well, i'm not sure about that.... kesh seems pretty reasonable in other posts - and the logic isn't terribly off. i mean, that description fits some men, it's just that i think it fits far less than was represented. far less.
just like you, ygbkm... you make some good points. but usually you take them too far, or can be a bit abrasive when presenting the idea, or are off sometimes (as we all are, myself included).
just like you, ygbkm... you make some good points. but usually you take them too far, or can be a bit abrasive when presenting the idea, or are off sometimes (as we all are, myself included).
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