Monday, May 18, 2009
Crime / Retail The Blame Game
Posted by Jonah Spangenthal-Lee on Mon, May 18, 2009 at 12:38 PM
The REI/Loomis/SPD Photogate story still isn't over.
REI is trying like hell to distance itself from Shane Becker's arrest, and the company has apparently begun sending emails (abridged here) to enraged REI members who've contacted the company about the incident:
It is unfortunate that the situation escalated to the point that the police were called by the ATM security officers and the customer was detained by the police. At no time did REI detain the individual and we did not request a trespass to be invoked. We do not intend to enforce the trespass issued by police, and the customer is free to visit our store in the future.Megan Behrbaum
REI Public Affairs
Last week, REI spokeswoman Libby Hutchinson also told me that while "REI does indeed have a policy about photography in its stores.[REI's] policy is pretty irrelevant since it wasn't us that asked him not to shoot the ATM - that was done by the Loomis people, not us."
As I said in my story, the SPD's report clearly states that "REI security requested that once Becker was identified the he be Criminally Trespassed from the REI store." The officers involved in the arrest are apparently really pissed that REI has thrown them under the bus and have contacted the Seattle Police Officers' Guild for support while the Office of Professional Accountability investigates the incident.
"At some point, REI security was involved and said they wanted him trespassed," SPOG President Rich O'Neill says. "The officers did, in my opinion, nothing wrong. They’re not rookies," he says, adding that the officers were within their rights to arrest Becker "because he was being trespassed."
In other misdirected anger news, this letter to the editor came in late last week:
(sic throughout)
My name is Tabatha. I am writing you in re-guards to your cover story this week. Last night I came home and my fiance was livid. Their on the cover of The Stranger is a picture of two men servicing an ATM Machine. Then he opened up The Stranger to the article accompanying the cover picture and I could not believe it. I could not believe that the article could be so tunneled vision that no one could address the reasons why the service men were so upset at the situation. I will explain the reasons behind their thinking... after all my fiance has that exact job with a different guard company. These men are trained to consistently look behind their backs. They risk their lives to carry around lots of money to supply banks with money, keep ATMs full and provided change and deposits to large companies, like REI in your story. Are some people so naive to think that money magically appears in these places? No, trained professional men and woman work long hard hours every day delivering money.The thing that frustrates me the most, is I am a mom and my fiance a dad. He gets up and goes to work sometimes working 15 hour days to support us. The Stranger just posted the inside workings of an ATM machine on the cover allowing for some person to get their hands on. Shane Becker may not have had the intentions of doing anything wrong. He probably was just curious enough to want to know how it worked, but the gentlemen servicing the machine don't know this. All they know is they have a lot of money and someone is taking their picture. I am sorry, but logically thinking, if someone is armed (with was looks to appear to be at least a 9mm) you probably should just mind your own damn business. I am pretty sure if I walked into my local bank branch and started taking pictures of their safe, and when asked what I am doing and to show ID and I refused I am sure I would be tackled or have the police called on me also. Same situation here. Banks and the FDIC pay a lot of money to keep their money (and essentially every one's money) safe.
This to me is not two guys who are "over reacting" to a picture being taken. These are men trying to protect themselves and trying to do their job. I woke up this morning a little more scared for my fiance to leave for work. EVERYONE who has picked up a stranger now has information on "how the ATM works" and not everyone is just curious. Their are bad people out there. Honestly there are also good people who are strapped and do stupid things for a little extra cash and when people like that come in contact with ARMED guards the outcome is never a good one. My point is, there is now a substantial liability risk and The Stranger has now increase the danger of those men and woman who are just trying to do their jobs and take care of their families. They deal with traffic, crowds and stupid people all day with their comments like "oh can I have that?" (speaking about their bag of money) I just can not believe how no one thought of this. I can not believe that the world is really becoming a place so "with out a clue" that now even "freedom of speech" and the right to take a picture is endangering the lives of others and this seems to be a big joke to everyone.
The reason for this email. I demand an apology to all of the people who you offended and endangered for this stupid story. I am not sure it will help me sleep better at night, but maybe it will diminish your disrespect for these gentleman.
— Tabatha M. Smith
Tabatha, diagrams, photos and videos of open ATMs are readily available on the internet. If, in fact, you're not familiar with the Google, I've conveniently linked one right here.
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3
and let's not forget that the stranger ran a FULL PAGE AD for rei right across from their "story" about the ATM photo.
7
In addition to taking pictures my cell phone also shoots lasers.
Sorry about your difficulty sleeping, i can see why you are afraid for your husband's safety. Loading cash is a very very very hard job, dollar billz weigh like a billion pounds and driving big armored trucks takes large brain cellz.
we knows how your machine works! see that container, it holds money, and this part over here is where your card goes in! the blurry cell phone picture is like a schematic of the banking world!!!!!
I can also hack the atm software now that I can see insidez....i see all the zeros and ones and zeros..... hahahaha...your husband is in much danger as i will hack into the machine after he leaves for his next "drop". The ATMs are like voodoo dolls for loomis workers.....once i hack the machine in REI your husband will be hurt allllll the way across town at safeco field!
Sorry about your difficulty sleeping, i can see why you are afraid for your husband's safety. Loading cash is a very very very hard job, dollar billz weigh like a billion pounds and driving big armored trucks takes large brain cellz.
we knows how your machine works! see that container, it holds money, and this part over here is where your card goes in! the blurry cell phone picture is like a schematic of the banking world!!!!!
I can also hack the atm software now that I can see insidez....i see all the zeros and ones and zeros..... hahahaha...your husband is in much danger as i will hack into the machine after he leaves for his next "drop". The ATMs are like voodoo dolls for loomis workers.....once i hack the machine in REI your husband will be hurt allllll the way across town at safeco field!
8
Be sure to beat this story to death;
because no one on god's green earth gives a shit,
including the Stranger;
and you know it...
because no one on god's green earth gives a shit,
including the Stranger;
and you know it...
9
How is knowing the insides of an ATM going to endanger armed guards?
"The thing that frustrates me the most, is I am a mom and my fiance a dad."
That frustrates me too.
"The thing that frustrates me the most, is I am a mom and my fiance a dad."
That frustrates me too.
12
Having watched this story unfold for the past week, I am left with one unanswered question: Why the fuck would anybody shop at REI in the first place?
Jesus Christ, people, they're one of the biggest rip-offs out there.
Jesus Christ, people, they're one of the biggest rip-offs out there.
13
Don't use the word "rent-a-cop" because a human-food-conditioned rent-a-cop might associate "rent-a-cop" with food. People feeding rent-a-cops often say "here rent-a-cop."
14
If she empathizes with the Loomis employees, why does she call them "re-guards"? That isn't nice.
15
Tabatha's level of intelligence ranks barely one step above a retarded monkey. It's a free country bitch, and when you're in public we're allowed to photograph you, it doesn't matter if you have a gun and a super important job. And your husband doesn't have a super important job Tabatha, he's a SECURITY GUARD, which is a code word for FAILED COP.
16
Wow, I learned more from that woman's letter than she evidently learned in civics class.
I learned that money handling rent-a-cops are the heroes of modern society. I learned that you apparently should never ever ever take a picture of a person with a gun, lest they get scared and totally fucking kill you, or something. I learned that you should always show your ID to anyone who asks without question. I learned that the assumption of security through obscurity as a viable methodology is a forgone conclusion. I learned that knowing how something works is the same thing as stealing that thing. And I learned that the stranger staff is completely responsible for every bank and armored car robbery from here on out.
I also learned that there's at least one money handler out there who married a middle school english flunky.
I learned that money handling rent-a-cops are the heroes of modern society. I learned that you apparently should never ever ever take a picture of a person with a gun, lest they get scared and totally fucking kill you, or something. I learned that you should always show your ID to anyone who asks without question. I learned that the assumption of security through obscurity as a viable methodology is a forgone conclusion. I learned that knowing how something works is the same thing as stealing that thing. And I learned that the stranger staff is completely responsible for every bank and armored car robbery from here on out.
I also learned that there's at least one money handler out there who married a middle school english flunky.
18
My amateur legal analysis:
The statute for Criminal Trespass reads:
A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the second degree if he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises of another...
Emphasis on "knowingly." If REI security did in fact request that Becker be trespassed from the building, then the officers had a duty to inform Becker that he was being trespassed prior to arresting him, and to give him the opportunity to leave. Without fulfilling that duty, the officers could not satisfy the knowledge element of the statute, and therefore lacked probable cause to arrest for trespassing.
The statute for Criminal Trespass reads:
A person is guilty of criminal trespass in the second degree if he knowingly enters or remains unlawfully in or upon premises of another...
Emphasis on "knowingly." If REI security did in fact request that Becker be trespassed from the building, then the officers had a duty to inform Becker that he was being trespassed prior to arresting him, and to give him the opportunity to leave. Without fulfilling that duty, the officers could not satisfy the knowledge element of the statute, and therefore lacked probable cause to arrest for trespassing.
19
Now I feel kinda tempted to take a picture of the Loomis truck outside the Red Apple every time I go there.
20
@15: Speaking of retards, REI is not a "public place", dipshit. How fucking hard is that to understand?
Honestly, the shit that my fellow Seattleites choose to get their panties wadded up about always amazes me.
Honestly, the shit that my fellow Seattleites choose to get their panties wadded up about always amazes me.
21
Setting aside Tabatha's problems with basic literacy, she also fails to make even the rudiments of an argument against this photo. Yes, her fiance is in a dangerous line of work. The man carries cash and a gun for a living, for the love of all that is holy. But a photo of other guys who carry cash and guns for a living endangers them? Or her man by extension?
Nope. Not even close.
She has a right to fear for his safety, but that has nothing to do with this photo. Pull your head out of your ass, Tabatha, and at least be honest about the risks he has decided to accept in his work life. Now decide if you really want to be married to a man who's accepted those risks.
Then shut the fuck up, whatever you decide.
Nope. Not even close.
She has a right to fear for his safety, but that has nothing to do with this photo. Pull your head out of your ass, Tabatha, and at least be honest about the risks he has decided to accept in his work life. Now decide if you really want to be married to a man who's accepted those risks.
Then shut the fuck up, whatever you decide.
22
@20 - On the contrary, REI is a business that is open to the public and is effectively a public place up until the point that you are asked to leave their property, if you don't leave within a reasonable period, you're trespassing on their property. But you do actually have to be asked to leave by the property owners or their designates. The cops can't trespass you unless that property owner requests it or you are breaking a law.
23
@21 - No kidding, it's not like anybody has a gun to her husbands head forcing him to be a security guard. Don't like the dangerous work, work in a coffee shop or something, go back to school, get a desk job, geez.
25
I think she's been watching too many bank heist films lately. I'm thinking of the Italian Job, where the armored vehicle stops at a red light, and then a perfect outline of the truck is blown out underneath it, and the truck drops underground so the "good guys" can get back what they initially stole. However, those security guards were just given knock-out gas.
Perhaps she was thinking of that scene in Heat when they shoot down the guards so they can steal some bonds. That is what I always think of when I see armed security guards/vans.
Perhaps she was thinking of that scene in Heat when they shoot down the guards so they can steal some bonds. That is what I always think of when I see armed security guards/vans.
26
@21, I'm not agreeing with her, and I'm certainly not agreeing with the Loomis employees at REI, but the "nobody is holding a gun to his head" argument is pretty weak when unemployment is near 10%, I guess he could quite and look for new job, and all that time his family goes without, personally I think that kind of sucks.
I understand there is a certain amount of risk that goes with this type of job, but should we be so dismissive is to say that whatever bad befalls this people they deserve it. That kind of sucks to.
I understand there is a certain amount of risk that goes with this type of job, but should we be so dismissive is to say that whatever bad befalls this people they deserve it. That kind of sucks to.
27
@18
"Emphasis on "knowingly." If REI security did in fact request that Becker be trespassed from the building, then the officers had a duty to inform Becker that he was being trespassed prior to arresting him, and to give him the opportunity to leave. Without fulfilling that duty, the officers could not satisfy the knowledge element of the statute, and therefore lacked probable cause to arrest for trespassing. "
It's private property and REI can pick and choose who gets the 'right' to visit their store. I believe since they were holding him it was ok for the officers to assume REI was looking to press charges because if they didn't they should have let him go (or at least give him the opportunity). Hindsight being 20/20 and we find out REI has no plans to press charges, obviously more a business decision at this point with all this bad press, but I don't think the police did anything wrong in this incident. They responded to a 911 call and they assumed the accused was going to have charges brought against him, the police are not to decide cases this is the work of the judge, the judge we'll never hear from because now that we have more facts to the case it's laughable to think any charges would stick.
"Emphasis on "knowingly." If REI security did in fact request that Becker be trespassed from the building, then the officers had a duty to inform Becker that he was being trespassed prior to arresting him, and to give him the opportunity to leave. Without fulfilling that duty, the officers could not satisfy the knowledge element of the statute, and therefore lacked probable cause to arrest for trespassing. "
It's private property and REI can pick and choose who gets the 'right' to visit their store. I believe since they were holding him it was ok for the officers to assume REI was looking to press charges because if they didn't they should have let him go (or at least give him the opportunity). Hindsight being 20/20 and we find out REI has no plans to press charges, obviously more a business decision at this point with all this bad press, but I don't think the police did anything wrong in this incident. They responded to a 911 call and they assumed the accused was going to have charges brought against him, the police are not to decide cases this is the work of the judge, the judge we'll never hear from because now that we have more facts to the case it's laughable to think any charges would stick.
28
I emailed REI about this right after it happened and this is what they said to me:
Thank you for your email and the opportunity to explain the incident
that occurred between one of our customers and a security company
servicing an ATM in our Seattle store. It is unfortunate that the
situation escalated to the point that the police were called by the ATM
security officers and the customer was detained by the police. At no
time did REI detain the individual and we did not request a trespass to
be invoked. We do not intend to enforce the trespass issued by police,
and the customer is free to visit our store in the future.
We appreciate people sharing their varied points of view about what
should or should not have happened at the store. We regret that the
matter couldn't be defused before the police became involved. One step
we are taking is to discuss with the ATM security company ways to
prevent the circumstances that led to this problem.
We value your membership in the co-op and hope to serve your outdoor
needs in the future.
Thank you for your email and the opportunity to explain the incident
that occurred between one of our customers and a security company
servicing an ATM in our Seattle store. It is unfortunate that the
situation escalated to the point that the police were called by the ATM
security officers and the customer was detained by the police. At no
time did REI detain the individual and we did not request a trespass to
be invoked. We do not intend to enforce the trespass issued by police,
and the customer is free to visit our store in the future.
We appreciate people sharing their varied points of view about what
should or should not have happened at the store. We regret that the
matter couldn't be defused before the police became involved. One step
we are taking is to discuss with the ATM security company ways to
prevent the circumstances that led to this problem.
We value your membership in the co-op and hope to serve your outdoor
needs in the future.
29
And thats why you and your fiance should have gone to collage and gotten better jobs instead of popping out babies Tabitha... Lifes about choices and sounds like you have chosen poorly.
30
Tabatha likely thinks that a homophone is a gay guy who has a pink Motorola Razr.
Damm! When are people going to get the smarts that just because a word sounds the same it's *not* the same. There, their and they're *are* different.
Damm! When are people going to get the smarts that just because a word sounds the same it's *not* the same. There, their and they're *are* different.
31
I'm not sure why no one has addressed the point that REI is deferring to Loomis in terms of what the Loomis guards did or did not say or do. So REI is saying that a separately contracted firm can send guards who lack any legal standing as law enforcement officers who can then order (regardless of what was actually said, there's no dispute they ordered Becker to do something) patrons of their store without REI having any responsibility for or interaction with the patron.
Then, when REI security staff are called, regardless of what they said or didn't, REI still seems to be asserting that the Loomis guards were in charge, even though pretty clearly REI called the police not Loomis (or so all the stories seem to agree on).
So: REI's store. REI's security. Loomis guards doing a contract job inside REI at REI's behest for equipment that REI hosts. And it's somehow all devolving to decisions made by the Loomis guards? That stinks so much of a lack of accountability.
REI should do the right thing and pay Becker a small fee for his trouble, apologize to the police, discuss what the right policy is for such cases, and make sure this bullshit doesn't happen again.
If an ATM machine is like the Ark of the Covenant, and you look inside and suddenly possess magic knowledge that burns your skin off, then Loomis needs to bring a box with them that surrounds the ATM and prevents anyone from seeing its secret, magic innards that can be found anywhere on the Internet, including in manuals found on the sites of ATM makers.
Also, Super Jesse is the best commenter ever.
Then, when REI security staff are called, regardless of what they said or didn't, REI still seems to be asserting that the Loomis guards were in charge, even though pretty clearly REI called the police not Loomis (or so all the stories seem to agree on).
So: REI's store. REI's security. Loomis guards doing a contract job inside REI at REI's behest for equipment that REI hosts. And it's somehow all devolving to decisions made by the Loomis guards? That stinks so much of a lack of accountability.
REI should do the right thing and pay Becker a small fee for his trouble, apologize to the police, discuss what the right policy is for such cases, and make sure this bullshit doesn't happen again.
If an ATM machine is like the Ark of the Covenant, and you look inside and suddenly possess magic knowledge that burns your skin off, then Loomis needs to bring a box with them that surrounds the ATM and prevents anyone from seeing its secret, magic innards that can be found anywhere on the Internet, including in manuals found on the sites of ATM makers.
Also, Super Jesse is the best commenter ever.
32
Tina, @29, you can't continue to spell college as "collage"
It totally negates your insult. Just FYI.
It totally negates your insult. Just FYI.
33
@32 I ammend my original comment to "go to a college better then the collage I went to... sigh"... sorry.
35
In what dictionary does "trespass" mean "charge someone for tresspassing?" (E.g., ""At some point, REI security was involved and said they wanted him trespassed.")
Sounds sort of eye-for-an-eye, punishment-wise. Now that's something I'd want my camera phone handy for.
Sounds sort of eye-for-an-eye, punishment-wise. Now that's something I'd want my camera phone handy for.
36
Why do people shop at this so called Co-op anyways? It's way overpriced, and run completely for the benefit of the officers of the company-- not the co-op members. Like many I shopped there after I moved here 20 years ago, but soon wised up to the scam. I'm not surprised that they act no different than any other multi national company.
37
TABITHA: "The thing that frustrates me the most, is I am a mom and my fiance a dad."
While god knows I understand THAT sentiment, I am not sure I udnerstand why the fact that Tabitha and her fiance have popped out a kid or two has her the most 'frustrated.' or the fact that said fiance works hard?
but what does it have to do with the internal doings of an ATM? I work hard and it has more to do with why I have money IN the ATM rather than HOW the ATM works...
Is this some heterosexual thing I have missed in my vast but haphazard understanding of why people have children?
While god knows I understand THAT sentiment, I am not sure I udnerstand why the fact that Tabitha and her fiance have popped out a kid or two has her the most 'frustrated.' or the fact that said fiance works hard?
but what does it have to do with the internal doings of an ATM? I work hard and it has more to do with why I have money IN the ATM rather than HOW the ATM works...
Is this some heterosexual thing I have missed in my vast but haphazard understanding of why people have children?
38
@31: Right on!
I've been wondering this whole time why, if it's so important that no one see the inside of the ATM, the ATM was serviced during the store's business hours. Why not just before opening or just after closing?
I've been wondering this whole time why, if it's so important that no one see the inside of the ATM, the ATM was serviced during the store's business hours. Why not just before opening or just after closing?
39
@ 12 and 36
Regarding the overpriced comments: the reason things cost more at REI than a lot of other stores is mostly because of their return policy, which pretty much tanks their profits. I used to work as an auditor for REI (not in Seattle, though), and I remember that individual stores would lose thousands of dollars every day on returns, because they'd give full refunds for used stuff that people bought months or years before. So basically, when you pay $200 for a pair of boots at REI, you're paying for the assholes who will bring theirs back after 6 months and get brand new ones for free. There's a reason why a lot of people call it Rental Equipment Incorporated, after all.
The backpedaling/blaming of Loomis/SPD sounds just like some of my old bosses at REI, though. I left because the place was turning more and more into a typical corporate groupthink machine, and shit like this makes me so happy I no longer work there!
Regarding the overpriced comments: the reason things cost more at REI than a lot of other stores is mostly because of their return policy, which pretty much tanks their profits. I used to work as an auditor for REI (not in Seattle, though), and I remember that individual stores would lose thousands of dollars every day on returns, because they'd give full refunds for used stuff that people bought months or years before. So basically, when you pay $200 for a pair of boots at REI, you're paying for the assholes who will bring theirs back after 6 months and get brand new ones for free. There's a reason why a lot of people call it Rental Equipment Incorporated, after all.
The backpedaling/blaming of Loomis/SPD sounds just like some of my old bosses at REI, though. I left because the place was turning more and more into a typical corporate groupthink machine, and shit like this makes me so happy I no longer work there!
40
uh, wow...it's a shock to see how many assholes read and write on here. This non-story and the average reaction on here just goes to prove that the liberal left can be as condescending, ignorant and arrogant as the rightwingers.
As a big, gay old liberal I would have to say that I agree with just about everything Tabatha has to say in her letter. Security guards DO perform necessary, potentially dangerous jobs that require skills and knowledge. To imply that anyone in the military, or law enforcement or security is a stupid fascist is lame and reactionary.
We do have incredible freedoms in this country and we do have to work hard to maintain those freedoms but you also have to have the common sense to know that freedom is not absolute. And to all you asshats who disagree with me, I guess that means you'll let me photograph your laptop screen while you sit in Starbucks working on that top secret proprietary project for work, or take your picture when you're acting on stage, or follow you to a strip club or The Eagle or The Wet Spot and get some candid action shots of you having a good time because I'm fascinated by man's interaction with sexual taboos and mores...I mean, it's a free country so I can do what I want, right?
As a big, gay old liberal I would have to say that I agree with just about everything Tabatha has to say in her letter. Security guards DO perform necessary, potentially dangerous jobs that require skills and knowledge. To imply that anyone in the military, or law enforcement or security is a stupid fascist is lame and reactionary.
We do have incredible freedoms in this country and we do have to work hard to maintain those freedoms but you also have to have the common sense to know that freedom is not absolute. And to all you asshats who disagree with me, I guess that means you'll let me photograph your laptop screen while you sit in Starbucks working on that top secret proprietary project for work, or take your picture when you're acting on stage, or follow you to a strip club or The Eagle or The Wet Spot and get some candid action shots of you having a good time because I'm fascinated by man's interaction with sexual taboos and mores...I mean, it's a free country so I can do what I want, right?
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