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News & ArtsThursday, May 14, 2009
News Re: Heckuva Job, Torturers!
Posted by Anthony Hecht on Thu, May 14, 2009 at 10:09 AM
From Dan's post:
... and it looks like the Bush administration may have engaged in torture to obtain false evidence of a link between al-Qa'ida and Iraq in order to justify an already-taken decision to go to war with Iraq
This is the key thing about the Bush-Cheney torture policy, and something that's often overlooked. The fact that torture produces false results was the whole point. It's not that they were stupid or incompetent for implementing a policy that had little chance of success, they undertook this policy knowing full-well that it had little chance of "success," but stood a good chance of justifying a policy they had already decided upon. They needed bullshit intelligence to support their bullshit war. The best way to get someone to admit to something that's not true? Torture them.
Or as Jay Rosen Twittered a couple weeks ago:
You don't get it yet. Torture gives you false information. Now that wasn't a bug but a feature. Only fake facts could validate a phony case.
1
Many soldiers still think that they are fighting in Iraq because of 9/11. Three brigades are deploying from Ft. Lewis throughout the summer, two to Iraq, one to Afghanistan. That's ten thousand troops about to go fight in wars you don't believe in, all just 45 minutes south of Seattle. So, hey faggot, what are you going to do about it?
4
If that were true, then the Bush Admin would have probably planted evidence that Saddam had WMD. It astounds me that the Bush Admin did not plant anthrax or uranium somewhere in Iraq. It would have been very easy, and an immediate justification for war.
The fact that they did not do that, leads me to believe that they were not affirmatively or fraudulently planting evidence. They were merely cherry picking information that was already out there and turning a blind eye to the source and/or reliability of said information. Misleading but not fraud (fraud requires one to affirmatively know the information is wrong, but pass it off as correct).
Moreover, the Bush Admin did not need to do much to rally the populace to support the war. There was ample support for the war without making fraudulent claims.
The fact that they did not do that, leads me to believe that they were not affirmatively or fraudulently planting evidence. They were merely cherry picking information that was already out there and turning a blind eye to the source and/or reliability of said information. Misleading but not fraud (fraud requires one to affirmatively know the information is wrong, but pass it off as correct).
Moreover, the Bush Admin did not need to do much to rally the populace to support the war. There was ample support for the war without making fraudulent claims.
5
@4 - They practiced very careful plausible deniability. Directly planting evidence would have been much more risky than implementing a torture policy, which they can go to their graves saying they believe was effective. Using torture works for exactly the reasons you say - it means they don't "know" the information is wrong. The guy said it, so they just say they believe him, regardless of the methods used to get him to say it.
To your last point - this is just not true. There was support for the war AFTER they manufactured and shamelessly peddled false information connecting 9/11 and Al-Qaida to Iraq. They saw an opportunity in the 9/11 attacks and seized it immediately. Nobody supported invading Iraq until they were told that Iraq was involved.
To your last point - this is just not true. There was support for the war AFTER they manufactured and shamelessly peddled false information connecting 9/11 and Al-Qaida to Iraq. They saw an opportunity in the 9/11 attacks and seized it immediately. Nobody supported invading Iraq until they were told that Iraq was involved.
6
@4 - Perhaps they were at least smart enough to realize that, given their incompetence at everything else, that they might just screw up the evidence planting too.
8
People, let us not forget that the "puppet master" of this administration was man who managed to shoot someone in the face while hunting flightless birds... Nothing that could ever be uncovered about them will suprise me.
9
Right. So in addition to being lying liars and committing the crimes of torture a/k/a "assault", and conspiracy, they did it for purposes that amounted to totally impeachable offenses.
And still Obama does not want to prosecute.
Prosecuting will destroy the GOP brand and then we can have the Democrats versus the Social Democrats. Should we tax at 39% or 49% for over $250K? should we have full universal health care or full universal health care plus government funded college education for all, large childcare stipends, and 6 weeks vacation with a vacation bonus of 11% of your pay, so you can take it? that's the kind of debate we should be having. The whole GOP program is scams and lies and incompetence to cover up their grab for power, just like the Bushies did in CT then in Texas.
Why is this party still alive? They are crooks.
You can't come halfway clean on these crimes. Strike while iron hot. Finish them off and good riddance.
That there, that'd be "change."
And still Obama does not want to prosecute.
Prosecuting will destroy the GOP brand and then we can have the Democrats versus the Social Democrats. Should we tax at 39% or 49% for over $250K? should we have full universal health care or full universal health care plus government funded college education for all, large childcare stipends, and 6 weeks vacation with a vacation bonus of 11% of your pay, so you can take it? that's the kind of debate we should be having. The whole GOP program is scams and lies and incompetence to cover up their grab for power, just like the Bushies did in CT then in Texas.
Why is this party still alive? They are crooks.
You can't come halfway clean on these crimes. Strike while iron hot. Finish them off and good riddance.
That there, that'd be "change."
10
we can't prosecute them for international war crimes - there will be too much pressure for us to pardon some of them.
We have to indict them, arrest them, and ship em to the Hague to be tried there - safe from our pardons.
International War Crimes are just that - international.
We have to indict them, arrest them, and ship em to the Hague to be tried there - safe from our pardons.
International War Crimes are just that - international.
11
@10 - It blows me away that I haven't heard anyone mention international involvement on this issue yet. Doesn't one president investigating another constitute a conflict of interest? The justice dept. can't be relied upon either to investigate their forerunners or current members. We really need to just submit ourselves to the jurisdiction of the ICC and see where that takes us. Anything short of that would be subject to political manipulation.
This all makes me feel sorry for the democrats because if they follow up on these issues properly, the republicans will just say it's all politically motivated and joe six-pack will totally buy it. But if they don't pursue this, they'll have sold the fundamental principals of the country for political expediency. Rock, meet hard place.
At least if they stand aside for an international investigator they can say the witch hunt wasn't their fault. Of course the nuts will just complain about how Obama turned America over to the one world governement/illuminati or some shit.
This all makes me feel sorry for the democrats because if they follow up on these issues properly, the republicans will just say it's all politically motivated and joe six-pack will totally buy it. But if they don't pursue this, they'll have sold the fundamental principals of the country for political expediency. Rock, meet hard place.
At least if they stand aside for an international investigator they can say the witch hunt wasn't their fault. Of course the nuts will just complain about how Obama turned America over to the one world governement/illuminati or some shit.
12
In one of life's greatest ironies, the Americans most in favor of torture--Cheney, Limbaugh, Hannity, et al.--are the ones who most deserve to be tortured to death.
13
Look, I've got a magic penny that keeps America safe from attack! All we have to do is torture people and it works!
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