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News & ArtsWednesday, May 13, 2009
Homo "The Fierce Urgency of Whenever"
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, May 13, 2009 at 2:14 PM
This post at Andrew Sullivan's blog is required reading:
I lived through eight years of the Clintons and then eight years of Bush. Through it all, gay people were treated at the federal level like embarrassments or impediments. With Clinton, we were the means to raise money. With Bush, we were the means to leverage votes by exploiting bigotry. Obama seemed in the campaign to promise something else.... But I have a sickeningly familiar feeling in my stomach, and the feeling deepens with every interaction with the Obama team on these issues. They want them to go away. They want us to go away.Here we are, in the summer of 2009, with gay servicemembers still being fired for the fact of their orientation. Here we are, with marriage rights spreading through the country and world and a president who cannot bring himself even to acknowledge these breakthroughs in civil rights, and having no plan in any distant future to do anything about it at a federal level. Here I am, facing a looming deadline to be forced to leave my American husband for good, and relocate abroad because the HIV travel and immigration ban remains in force and I have slowly run out of options (unlike most non-Americans with HIV who have no options at all).
And what is Obama doing about any of these things? What is he even intending at some point to do about these things? So far as I can read the administration, the answer is: nada.
At roughly the same time Andrew was posting this blistering critique to his blog—please go read the whole thing—I was staring blankly into a camera at KING 5 waiting to go on MSNBC. I was asked to come on Andrea Mitchell's show to talk about the controversy surrounding Obama's invitation to give the commencement address at Notre Dame University this weekend. (The invite is controversial because Notre Dame is a Catholic university and Obama is pro-choice... just like a majority of American Catholics. And Obama supports stem-cell research... just like a majority of American Catholics. And a majority of American Catholics voted for Obama—so you can see why the invite is controversial.) I wasn't there to discuss the Obama's administration's abysmal record, thus far, on gay issues. But Andrea Mitchell asked and I did my best to tell:
If I had known that Mitchell was going to ask me about this I would've been better prepared. But if I had known the question was coming I'm afraid I would've had to contradict my good friend Andrew. Fact is, Obama has "acknowledge [the] breakthroughs in civil rights" that we've seen in Iowa and other states. And here it is:
See? Obama has acknowledged the breakthroughs in civil rights for gay Americans! He told a joke about it at the White House Correspondents' Dinner this weekend. (You were there, Andrew, didn't you catch it?) Barack Obama condescended to use marriage equality as a punch line; he made, essentially, a Chuck & Larry joke about two straight dudes—Obama and Axelrod—running off to Iowa to "make it official" with the queers and their "partners." And that's hilarious, you see, because Obama and Axelrod aren't actually homos! So they don't need to go to Iowa to make it official! They can get married—to women—in all fifty states! HA!
The more I think about the joke Obama told at the WHCD the more ticked off I get. We're witnessing rapid and historic progress in the fight for gay equality and Barack Obama, who campaigned on our issues and described himself as a "fierce advocate" of gay and lesbian equality, hasn't acknowledged the breakthroughs in Iowa, Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine in a setting or a with comments that are in any way equal to the significance of this historic moment. The best he can do—all he's willing to do—is toss off an Adam-Sandler-level joke.
So here's what I would've said if I'd been prepared for the question: Our lives, our families, and our rights are not a joke, Mr. President. The discrimination faced by gay people—whether coupled and single—is distressingly real and persists even for same-sex couples in Iowa and other states where gay marriage is legal. Stop fucking around and start delivering on your campaign promises to us, to our families, and to our children.
4
You tell him, Dan. And if he doesn't listen to you, well, I guess you'll just have to vote for a Republican the next time.
5
*sigh* someone please get that Sullivan poodle on a leach, he's got a rotweiler complex. And you know who would be holding it with a hood on over his head.
6
Change is coming so fast to this country that I think you should let this one go. Almost every day you can post a "we are winning" article and that is great. Just because everything does not happen immediatly does not mean it wont happen quickly. It's wrong what has been going on for years but you have to remember that as the opinion of the people is (quickly) turning around the president only has to wait a little longer to support equality.
I think he is going the right thing in letting it happen without him. He would burn so much "political capital" (bleck what a term) if he came out in support of equal marriage rights. Why not let him work on something else. The change is inevitable in this country. Equality will be achieved with or without him. It would be better to have his help but it seems sometimes like you should focus on what is being done instead of what is being neglected. Celebrate the victory, don't get so down about a minor defeat (setback) like this.
I think he is going the right thing in letting it happen without him. He would burn so much "political capital" (bleck what a term) if he came out in support of equal marriage rights. Why not let him work on something else. The change is inevitable in this country. Equality will be achieved with or without him. It would be better to have his help but it seems sometimes like you should focus on what is being done instead of what is being neglected. Celebrate the victory, don't get so down about a minor defeat (setback) like this.
8
One thing that President Obama understands is organizing a community. The anti-Prop 8 marches were a start, but the gay community and its supporters need to keep applying pressure in these very public ways. Even though John F. Kennedy voiced support for civil rights in his campaign, he shelved action for years before Martin Luther King, Jr. and civil rights protest compelled him to act. The same thing happened with Johnson. One of Obama's biggest flaws is his cockiness, which explains things like the cavalier joke about Iowa marriage. However, he is also good about recognizing it when he's called out. While I have been a person who advised, "Wait and see, let him sort out the economy first, etc." it is clear now that the tide of history is already turning, and we need to ride this wave while the momentum is there. Obama is savvy and, yes, a supporter of gay rights when push comes to shove, but he needs the people to remind him of this. We need to make news.
9
Obama's doing his job, and Dan Savage is doing his job. Obama's about the best president we could realistically hope for right now (remember, folks, they have to get elected), but even then, he's not good enough. It's up to us to keep his feet to the fire. Kudos for continuing to do that, Dan. I wrote in this morning at http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/ pushing for action on gay rights issues (DADT and DOMA). Don't know how much good it'll do, but it's something - if we get enough letters and phone calls, it might start to register.
12
(And I'm also let down that Obama isn't standing up, speaking out and taking action on gay rights as he should be.)
13
Loveschild,
You would be wise to learn from all of the following:
President Abraham Lincoln - "Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."
Disney's Thumper -"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."
Proverbs 17:28 - Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he hold his tongue.
You bitch on a regular basis that you aren't liked, and that you aren't treated with respect. Try being respectful. Who knows, some of us may even learn to like you.
You would be wise to learn from all of the following:
President Abraham Lincoln - "Tis better to be silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."
Disney's Thumper -"If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."
Proverbs 17:28 - Even a fool is thought wise if he keeps silent, and discerning if he hold his tongue.
You bitch on a regular basis that you aren't liked, and that you aren't treated with respect. Try being respectful. Who knows, some of us may even learn to like you.
14
We just have to keep working, being vocal, and loud. It's frustratingly slow, but civil rights for African Americans didn't happen overnight either. We are getting there.
15
Good on you, Dan. It's imperative to keep up the pressure. Progress on civil rights marches on, and people keep speaking out. Yeah, there's a bad economy, two wars, a broken healthcare system, etc. But even if (or should I say even though) the Obama administration isn't going to deliver on all of their promises for gay rights in short order, it's wrong for them to just ignore the progress that's being made, which is what they're doing right now.
16
"put the Sullivan poodle on a LEACH (sic)"?
Not only can you not spell, but you've got it backalfhasswards: you would want to put the LEECH on the poodle, assuming of course it had some sort of arterial blockage that was causing an excess build up of blood that needed to be drained.
And is a "rotweiler" (sic) supposed to be similar to a ROTTWEILLER?
Really, Loveschild, if you're going to invoke the names of animals in your insane, nonsensical rantings, at least pay them the courtesy of spelling those names correctly.
Otherwise, how are we to take your bubble-headed bloviations seriously?
Not only can you not spell, but you've got it backalfhasswards: you would want to put the LEECH on the poodle, assuming of course it had some sort of arterial blockage that was causing an excess build up of blood that needed to be drained.
And is a "rotweiler" (sic) supposed to be similar to a ROTTWEILLER?
Really, Loveschild, if you're going to invoke the names of animals in your insane, nonsensical rantings, at least pay them the courtesy of spelling those names correctly.
Otherwise, how are we to take your bubble-headed bloviations seriously?
17
god that was boring, Dan.
I'm sorry, but it put me to sleep.
If that's your campaign, you've already lost.
I'm sorry, but it put me to sleep.
If that's your campaign, you've already lost.
19
Obama should focus on delivering health care to all Americans. When it comes to whether I will have adequate health coverage that won't bankrupt me due to my chronic health issues, or getting married - the choice is obvious. Priorities matter, and Obama openly supporting gay marriage will hurt his ability to change the health care system.
20
It took you this long to be offended by that joke? I was appalled that he would dare make that comment. To go this long without even commenting on his campaign promise for equal rights and then to mock the people he’s shafting… It’s like kicking someone once they’re down (or a big male police officer beating up a 15-year-old girl or something). I’m surprised you’ve had such a slow boil over his offensive joke.
But hey, glad to see you’ve arrived.
But hey, glad to see you’ve arrived.
21
Obama's been President less than six months. Marriage equality and the repeal of DOMA are important to us, but I want them set into place in a lasting and irrevocable way, not by a decree.
hilzoy at Obsidian Wings has a great blog post on DOMA the other day in which she discusses the urgency but also the dilemma of allowing the President to suspend an active law.
I think that Obama is going to do this, as he continues to say he will, and do it right. You may have seen the note he wrote recently in response to a letter from Sandy Choi, an officer discharged after coming out to her superiors. In it, he promises her that DADT will be reversed through Congressional action. That willingness to make a personal commitment in writing is encouraging, I think.
hilzoy at Obsidian Wings has a great blog post on DOMA the other day in which she discusses the urgency but also the dilemma of allowing the President to suspend an active law.
I think that Obama is going to do this, as he continues to say he will, and do it right. You may have seen the note he wrote recently in response to a letter from Sandy Choi, an officer discharged after coming out to her superiors. In it, he promises her that DADT will be reversed through Congressional action. That willingness to make a personal commitment in writing is encouraging, I think.
23
Savage, this is one of the few times where I've actually agreed with you, and your delivery.
Huzzah.
Huzzah.
24
If only the gay community had been half as hard, half as insistent on Bill Clinton, maybe DOMA would have never been signed. Perhaps Clinton would have been brave too, and pushed ahead with his original intent.
25
Now is the time for the President to stand up and show some backbone. Sure, there are many distractions, but just a few pointed comments here and there would go a long way - the silence is disappointing. Good job, Dan.
26
@11
I'm with you. No purse. Good speaker though. I'm a new Dan fan so it is always cool to put a face and voice to the man behind the advice.
I'm with you. No purse. Good speaker though. I'm a new Dan fan so it is always cool to put a face and voice to the man behind the advice.
27
You did a fine job as always Dan, saying something both true and uncomfortable, and you have nothing to apologize for. That being said, there's no reason you shouldn't be prepared for these kinds of questions all the time. However it happened, you have become the national spokesman for "Gay issues," which are the social and civil rights issues de jour. We need you to speak up loud and clear with every ounce of prepared eloquence you can muster every time you're on national TV. It's a huge responsibility I'm sure, but you're in this position because you handle it beautifully 99% of the time. We're proud of you man.
28
"If I had known that Mitchell was going to ask me about this I would've been better prepared."
Miss California agrees with you Dan.
Miss California agrees with you Dan.
31
1)Someone needs to call Disney and let them know that Lovechild is ilegally appropriating Disney intellectual property to use as her avatar...Disney is notoriously litigious...they might have her killed, or, at the very least, imprisoned in that room with Walt's frozen head.
2)and, Obama IS running out of time when it comes to the gay community...at the very least, DADT could be killed without that much fuss.
3)It's funny how the Dems LOOOOOOOVE queer money and queer resources at election time but we never seem to get much bang for our buck once the Dems get elected.
2)and, Obama IS running out of time when it comes to the gay community...at the very least, DADT could be killed without that much fuss.
3)It's funny how the Dems LOOOOOOOVE queer money and queer resources at election time but we never seem to get much bang for our buck once the Dems get elected.
32
13 I did not know that threatening our President and relentlessly hounding on him if he doesn't do some gay ideological groups nor the self proclaimed national professor on gays (Dan) biding was something 'wise', much less respectful. The only way I would be liked is if I were to compromise my values and accept gay marriage.
Psalm 10
Psalm 10
33
I'm not quite as impatient as lots of the gays. I'm not even dating anyone at the moment. So maybe that colors my perception.
But mostly I'm pragmatic. I don't believe Obama is our savior. I enjoyed his Iowa joke, and his messiah joke. I liked the Iowa one, because I didn't hear it as insulting to my people. I heard an acknowledgment of how far we've come and an acceptance of our humanity and rights.
It wasn't the funniest thing ever, but it was decidedly not mean spirited.
But mostly I'm pragmatic. I don't believe Obama is our savior. I enjoyed his Iowa joke, and his messiah joke. I liked the Iowa one, because I didn't hear it as insulting to my people. I heard an acknowledgment of how far we've come and an acceptance of our humanity and rights.
It wasn't the funniest thing ever, but it was decidedly not mean spirited.
34
@ 32 - Jesus Christ you're stupid. And a fucking bigot. Your calling Andrew Sullivan a "poodle" who thinks he's a "rottweiler" is so obviously a crack about him being a big, girly gay. Why not just call him a faggot and be done with it? You make me want to puke.
Having gotten that of my chest, I agree with 8. Well said.
Having gotten that of my chest, I agree with 8. Well said.
35
32:They used to use the Bible to justify slavery too.
But it's okay to disobey that one, right?
1 Peter 2:18
Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.
But it's okay to disobey that one, right?
36
Again we need to take a page from the play book of the Women Civil Rights struggle and the African American Civil Rights struggle; Don't expect anyone to do your fighting for you. Yeah Obama did in fact make some promises. But promises from a politician running for office are not official edicts, nor are they items the winning politician will keep if they can back out of them. Gay Americans should not let him back out.
In Seattle we will need to have more public displays of our support of Gay Civil Rights, just like Women marched in the day and Black folk marched in the day, so too Gay folk need to march and march and continue to march until WE make change happen. THEY will not make change happen for us.
In Seattle we will need to have more public displays of our support of Gay Civil Rights, just like Women marched in the day and Black folk marched in the day, so too Gay folk need to march and march and continue to march until WE make change happen. THEY will not make change happen for us.
37
@32: Threatening? How? Pointing out his promises, that's a threat?
You tell people how they should live, love and that they aren't worth what you're worth. You insist you're smarter and worth more than others. You lie, saying you support something unless folks say "okay, we'll take it" and then you say you're against it (like Civil Unions). You demand people submit fully to your own viewpoints, prostrating ourselves in front of you as some sort of god-figure and insist that such a thing is holy and of a biblical standard.
Your increasingly incoherent posts are showing that you are having a hard time accepting that your fiction that gays are flawed and evil is falling apart. You are lost and losing.
You tell people how they should live, love and that they aren't worth what you're worth. You insist you're smarter and worth more than others. You lie, saying you support something unless folks say "okay, we'll take it" and then you say you're against it (like Civil Unions). You demand people submit fully to your own viewpoints, prostrating ourselves in front of you as some sort of god-figure and insist that such a thing is holy and of a biblical standard.
Your increasingly incoherent posts are showing that you are having a hard time accepting that your fiction that gays are flawed and evil is falling apart. You are lost and losing.
38
What was it like to talk to Andrea? I feel like she is one of the more incompetent journalists on NBC. Every time i hear her stutter or even listen to how she phrases sentences I just want to kick her.
39
32,
No, it is in your word choice and descriptions that you choose to use. You could say things nicely, but you don't. You'd rather act the child and point fingers.
Psalm 10? Interesting choice. In choosing it you kinda condemn yourself, seeing as your comments have been far less than scrupulous. I would have gone with Psalm 15. Oh, wait to claim Psalm 15 you can't slander people, and your guilty of it in your comment above.
Anyhoo... It doesn't solve your problem with President Obama's promises.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4KKU1A4q…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZPxCotpq…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73oZ_pe1M…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlY9HFRNU…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLhf1YGVi…
No, it is in your word choice and descriptions that you choose to use. You could say things nicely, but you don't. You'd rather act the child and point fingers.
Psalm 10? Interesting choice. In choosing it you kinda condemn yourself, seeing as your comments have been far less than scrupulous. I would have gone with Psalm 15. Oh, wait to claim Psalm 15 you can't slander people, and your guilty of it in your comment above.
Anyhoo... It doesn't solve your problem with President Obama's promises.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4KKU1A4q…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZPxCotpq…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73oZ_pe1M…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlY9HFRNU…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLhf1YGVi…
40
Loveschild - you should be happy the Slog is not like your kin at the freerepublic. If so, you're ass would have been banned after your first post. At least we're tolerant enough to listen to you crap all over these boards. A tolerance that you won't extend to those who are different than you.
41
Dan's unprepared response was far better than many, many prepared ones that I've seen. Way to go!
42
I love it when Kim takes Loveschild down, not that Loveschild is bright enough to understand that she's being schooled.
43
I would be interested in hearing loveschild opinion on the matters at hand with her claws retracted for fuck's sake. Do you have anything to say that isn't purely derived from your dislike of the people writing here? Do you just have a list of insults that you insert blog titles into and then spit onto a page?
Show us and yourself that you have some value. Stop selling yourself short.
Show us and yourself that you have some value. Stop selling yourself short.
44
@ 43 - Sounds like wishful thinking to me. I've seen nothing from her, literally, that would indicate she's anything other than an ugly, mindless shit-head who's bound and determined to help deny civil rights to as many of her personal enemies as possible. But I guess anything's possible~
45
@44 Yeah, I know. It just amazes me when people think that they will get anywhere by just stomping their feet and shrieking "doody-head" like a 3 year old ... but then again, maybe she did her way by doing that as a 3 year old and alas she grows into Loveschild ... an ineloquent commenter with a personal vendetta.
46
I thought it was cute during your talking with Andrea Mitchell (Mrs. Alan Greenspan) that the both the Dow and the S&P were down showing a pink triangle at the lower right of the screen.
47
39 No, sweetie, you're the only one on denial, and who chooses to confuse the hearts of others here. Our President was very clear about his beliefs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJhQBZ1La…
Wanting to force him to implement what you really are after (gay marriage)
"Obama will either choose to be proactive or he can choose to wait for the issue to become forced upon him."
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
does not make you a true follower of Christ, quite the opposite.
I forgive you and pray every night for your repentance also.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJhQBZ1La…
Wanting to force him to implement what you really are after (gay marriage)
"Obama will either choose to be proactive or he can choose to wait for the issue to become forced upon him."
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
does not make you a true follower of Christ, quite the opposite.
I forgive you and pray every night for your repentance also.
48
@ 45 I know where you're coming from. What shocks me is that she is here every day. It's just weird, you know? Not only does she do nothing but act like a complete asshole, but NO ONE agrees with her, about anything. It's like she can't (or, more probably, won't) take a hint. Maybe she's starved for attention or something. The only thing I know about her for sure is that she's in her early 20s, so maybe she'll snap out of her vicious bigotry after she grows up some more - but I kind of doubt it.
50
She doesn't mean to, but LC does provide a service by laying out just how tough it is for people like her to get it. She's not in the majority, but she's also not alone, and her barking is a good reminder of that.
51
Do you give any consideration to highly placed appointments of lesbians and gays, Dan? I know that wasn't a promise, but it's still a little progressive, right?
Your unprepared statement was actually great, and demonstrates how you can speak to many issues with supporting evidence (Just what did he promise?), examples (Where did he promise it?) and other such data.
You rock!
Your unprepared statement was actually great, and demonstrates how you can speak to many issues with supporting evidence (Just what did he promise?), examples (Where did he promise it?) and other such data.
You rock!
52
47,
So, your back to willful misquoting, some would call that lying. Any person with reasonable reading comprehension skills, knows that in(http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive… ), I am refering to enough states passing marriage equality, including the DC's decision to honor those marriages, will result in Obama having to address the issue. I wasn't refering to any kind of physical force or attack. Funny, since your the one who has threatened Matt from Denver with physical violence. You shouldn't try and point to other people's "faults", you appear a hypocrite.
So, your back to willful misquoting, some would call that lying. Any person with reasonable reading comprehension skills, knows that in(http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive… ), I am refering to enough states passing marriage equality, including the DC's decision to honor those marriages, will result in Obama having to address the issue. I wasn't refering to any kind of physical force or attack. Funny, since your the one who has threatened Matt from Denver with physical violence. You shouldn't try and point to other people's "faults", you appear a hypocrite.
53
47,
You can save your prayers for my repentance. And your derogatory use of "sweetie". My conscience is clear before God with regard to http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…, I have nothing to repent. And, your opinion as to if I am a real Christian ... I don't care what you think. Here is a hint, Jesus doesn't care what you think about my salvation either. Get your own plank out of your eye.
You can save your prayers for my repentance. And your derogatory use of "sweetie". My conscience is clear before God with regard to http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…, I have nothing to repent. And, your opinion as to if I am a real Christian ... I don't care what you think. Here is a hint, Jesus doesn't care what you think about my salvation either. Get your own plank out of your eye.
54
47,
Please continue on your merry way, demanding respect and kindness. Yet, failing to be either respectful or kind.
You will continue to receive back the the respect and kindness you show others. Those who want to insult you will have lot of ammunition to use. And, you'll generate a lot of revenue for Dan and the Stranger in the process.
Please continue on your merry way, demanding respect and kindness. Yet, failing to be either respectful or kind.
You will continue to receive back the the respect and kindness you show others. Those who want to insult you will have lot of ammunition to use. And, you'll generate a lot of revenue for Dan and the Stranger in the process.
55
47,
Lastly, as I haven't done anything for you to forgive me for. I'll take your immitation as a sincere form of flattery, every time you copy me.
For falsely accusing me of violence. I forgive you.
Lastly, as I haven't done anything for you to forgive me for. I'll take your immitation as a sincere form of flattery, every time you copy me.
For falsely accusing me of violence. I forgive you.
56
@ 48 Some people feed off of drama. They feel most righteous amongst those that disagree with them. Can you imagine how sane and totally in the right she must feel right now? All of these people disagreeing with her? I mean, if she honestly feels like she is right, can you imagine how nuts we all must sound to her? I guess that could make you feel pretty powerful. So maybe that's what keeps her coming back ;0)
58
Obama's acting strategically. We need to keep the pressure up, but also realize that Obama pushing for marriage equality is a valuable force that should be used at the right time (up for debate when that is) and should not be diminished by overuse.
59
55 I give Kim, please tell me how could I comment on my views in a way that would seem respectful and kind to you, would that be by agreeing with your views? Just be honest. Is that it or if not how? I could care less about the revenues of Slog, but does your tolerance for gays extends to people who oppose gay marriage? I have expressed my support for civil unions, I have retracted only when it has been used as a steping stone for gay marriage but I would never support not allowing homosexuals enter into civil partnerships, yet I'm considered as a bigot by you.
I did not accuse you of violence, that would make me the same like some here, I just quoted your own words. I guess I should take solace in knowing if I came to Slog happy and others would want to hurt me physically you would oppose it. Yes, I'm not like you, I can remember both good and bad and you have said you would object to violence against me. I can recognize you're not an extremist person even if I think you're wrong on gay marriage and there's more to you that makes you good even if I don't agree on this issue. I have always hoped you would do the same.
I did not accuse you of violence, that would make me the same like some here, I just quoted your own words. I guess I should take solace in knowing if I came to Slog happy and others would want to hurt me physically you would oppose it. Yes, I'm not like you, I can remember both good and bad and you have said you would object to violence against me. I can recognize you're not an extremist person even if I think you're wrong on gay marriage and there's more to you that makes you good even if I don't agree on this issue. I have always hoped you would do the same.
61
A Pox on us all....
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
62
@59: The difference between you and Kim is: you are not a good person. At least you NEVER present yourself that way. Not only do you spew hatred across every single post on here (seriously, girl, you need to get a life or a fuck or something) you can't even string together a logical sentence. You honestly represent the absolute worst that America has to offer.
But, don't worry, I'm praying for you.
But, don't worry, I'm praying for you.
63
59
Then what was your purpose, because my comment about Obama's stated promises about repealing DADT, getting ENDA passed, repealing DOMA, etc. were not untruths. He put those promises on his websites, he verbally gave speaches saying what his position was (hence the youtube links). I expect him to honor his words, the promises he made. Yet, you accuse me of not being Christian, because I hold him to a standard I set for myself, and that is also biblical. Explain yourself.
Then what was your purpose, because my comment about Obama's stated promises about repealing DADT, getting ENDA passed, repealing DOMA, etc. were not untruths. He put those promises on his websites, he verbally gave speaches saying what his position was (hence the youtube links). I expect him to honor his words, the promises he made. Yet, you accuse me of not being Christian, because I hold him to a standard I set for myself, and that is also biblical. Explain yourself.
64
59,
Simple.
1)Don't call people names, even those you disagree with. Which means stop the KKK, hood wearing comments about Dan.
2)Stop, telling your fellow African Americans that their life experiences aren't real African American experiences. Like you did to Riz last week.
3)Don't make fun of other people's preferences. Such as calling woman who find straight men with "fem attributes" attractive, a bunch of Japanese girls with fetishes for gay men (like you did earlier this week).
4)Stop calling everyone who disagrees with you racist. Yes, you did that this week, too. There are real problems in everyone's community and we have to be honest about it.
5)If you can't find away to state your opinion on a subject with being insulting, just don't comment.
How is that for a start?
Simple.
1)Don't call people names, even those you disagree with. Which means stop the KKK, hood wearing comments about Dan.
2)Stop, telling your fellow African Americans that their life experiences aren't real African American experiences. Like you did to Riz last week.
3)Don't make fun of other people's preferences. Such as calling woman who find straight men with "fem attributes" attractive, a bunch of Japanese girls with fetishes for gay men (like you did earlier this week).
4)Stop calling everyone who disagrees with you racist. Yes, you did that this week, too. There are real problems in everyone's community and we have to be honest about it.
5)If you can't find away to state your opinion on a subject with being insulting, just don't comment.
How is that for a start?
65
I've must have been gone from Seattle too long as I found the joke funny and not the least offensive. To claim he was making fun of the homos just borders on the absurd. Reminds me of when they twisted Kerry's words to say he was anti-troops.
So I'm glad you weren't prepared and instead spent your time calling the Pres out on the very real issues and the well deserved F rather than trivializing yourself by seeing his joke as victimizing you. It was a great interview.
And please don't become another victimy person. I really can't stomach the whole, he should apologize, she should apologize, crap that passes for political discourse for so many. I expect it from Republicans because its all they do. But you, Jesus God please no.
So I'm glad you weren't prepared and instead spent your time calling the Pres out on the very real issues and the well deserved F rather than trivializing yourself by seeing his joke as victimizing you. It was a great interview.
And please don't become another victimy person. I really can't stomach the whole, he should apologize, she should apologize, crap that passes for political discourse for so many. I expect it from Republicans because its all they do. But you, Jesus God please no.
66
63 ENDA take more precedence than the economic crisis we find ourselves in? I want him to sign ENDA into law (even though to you I'm a bigot) and I know he will but rushing this upfront other things is not a level headed move. Than wars? In places such as Iraq and Afghanistan were homosexuality is punishable by death, how is the enemy knowing that homosexuals are serving due to the repealing of DADT now in our army going to help put an end to our occupations in a safe and beneficial way? DOMA goes completely against his beliefs of what marriage constitutes, he's our President but he's also a human being and there's the possibility that he has reflected better and done some soul searching of this. Threatening someone even if it's not done with the intent of violence is not a Christian principle (I know I have done it against Matt, and I have asked for his forgiveness), I wasn't saying you were not a Christian, I have never said that, I have meant that you have been deviating from Christian principles as all of us have. You're not perfect neither am I, but we have the Bible to guide us. You know that just as I have disagreed with you I have defended you and even KKK Rob (before he put his hood on) when trolls on my side have attacked you and resorted to inappropriate harassing. But whatever, ignore that as usual. You're the good one and I'm the bad. I still love you in God's Love.
67
I say, give the O some more time. It would've been nice if he'd moved on gay rights already, and I'm disappointed that he hasn't, but he's got a lot on his plate.
And I disagree with Dan for giving him an F on the issue. An F's what he'd get if he'd actively reversed his position, and moved on anti-gay issues, instead of ducking the question as he's been doing. That's C- behavior.
So a C- on gay issues, C/C- on drug issues, A/A- on everything else. We're not even to the mid-term yet. There's still plenty of time for him to pull those grades up.
So be a little more patient. Have some faith.
And I disagree with Dan for giving him an F on the issue. An F's what he'd get if he'd actively reversed his position, and moved on anti-gay issues, instead of ducking the question as he's been doing. That's C- behavior.
So a C- on gay issues, C/C- on drug issues, A/A- on everything else. We're not even to the mid-term yet. There's still plenty of time for him to pull those grades up.
So be a little more patient. Have some faith.
68
66,
You did a wonderful job, expressing your opinion until here:
"You know that just as I have disagreed with you I have defended you and even KKK Rob (before he put his hood on) when trolls on my side have attacked you and resorted to inappropriate harassing. But whatever, ignore that as usual. You're the good one and I'm the bad. I still love you in God's Love"
Then you resorted to name calling. Rob doesn't follow the Bible, we do. So, we have to rise above and not resort to name calling. We're both flawed. I'm not saying your "the bad one", I'm saying rise above it. Not just as a Christian, but also because you're a mom, too. People, who retaliate often do so, because they are hurt. It doesn't justify their behavior, but it also doesn't justify ours if we lower ourselves to insults. You identify yourself as Christian, as do I, and that means we have to do all that is possible to utter worthy not worthless words. It doesn't mean we won't screw up, but when we do we humble ourselves and seek forgiveness.
I have asked trolls and registered sloggers to stop calling you names. Sorry, if you can't remember it. I'd suggest you ask Joceyln (could be spelt wrong), but neither of you seem fond of each other.
I wish you both joy and peace in Christ.
You did a wonderful job, expressing your opinion until here:
"You know that just as I have disagreed with you I have defended you and even KKK Rob (before he put his hood on) when trolls on my side have attacked you and resorted to inappropriate harassing. But whatever, ignore that as usual. You're the good one and I'm the bad. I still love you in God's Love"
Then you resorted to name calling. Rob doesn't follow the Bible, we do. So, we have to rise above and not resort to name calling. We're both flawed. I'm not saying your "the bad one", I'm saying rise above it. Not just as a Christian, but also because you're a mom, too. People, who retaliate often do so, because they are hurt. It doesn't justify their behavior, but it also doesn't justify ours if we lower ourselves to insults. You identify yourself as Christian, as do I, and that means we have to do all that is possible to utter worthy not worthless words. It doesn't mean we won't screw up, but when we do we humble ourselves and seek forgiveness.
I have asked trolls and registered sloggers to stop calling you names. Sorry, if you can't remember it. I'd suggest you ask Joceyln (could be spelt wrong), but neither of you seem fond of each other.
I wish you both joy and peace in Christ.
70
64 Thought so, In other words if I don't agree with you I should be outta here or not express my views. My ancestors worked this soil, built many of the infrastructures of this nation and fought hard and long for their freedom for me to be taking others to silence myself. Not gonna happen sweetie.
68 Rob has expressed quite well his views about African Americans and no amount of anger on his part justifies the garbage he has posted. I'll be damned if I don't let know what he is, m'kay. In God's love.
68 Rob has expressed quite well his views about African Americans and no amount of anger on his part justifies the garbage he has posted. I'll be damned if I don't let know what he is, m'kay. In God's love.
71
66,
You seem pretty confinced that I called you a bigot, and I'm not saying I didn't, but I don't recall that because even a near photographic memory is only just near photographic. I do know I said that your comments indicated that you may be a bigot. But, belive it or not, your feelings matter to me. You feel hurt, and I am the cause of that hurt. So, I am apologizing to you, I don't allow name calling in my home and believe it to be unkind, unjust, and unbecoming of a Christian. Therefore, I am deeply sorry. I hope that you can accept my apology and forgive me. If you can't I can accept that as well.
You seem pretty confinced that I called you a bigot, and I'm not saying I didn't, but I don't recall that because even a near photographic memory is only just near photographic. I do know I said that your comments indicated that you may be a bigot. But, belive it or not, your feelings matter to me. You feel hurt, and I am the cause of that hurt. So, I am apologizing to you, I don't allow name calling in my home and believe it to be unkind, unjust, and unbecoming of a Christian. Therefore, I am deeply sorry. I hope that you can accept my apology and forgive me. If you can't I can accept that as well.
72
70,
You can have your feelings about Rob, just either give him a respectful talking to, or ignore him. We're both women with long dignified histories in this country and Chritians, we can make our point without being disrespectful and insulting, and we can walk away from a comment smelling like a rose, too.
And those instances when we let our passions get the best of us, we can apologize, not for our opinion but for how we stated it. That may include if our humor is misunderstood, too.
You can have your feelings about Rob, just either give him a respectful talking to, or ignore him. We're both women with long dignified histories in this country and Chritians, we can make our point without being disrespectful and insulting, and we can walk away from a comment smelling like a rose, too.
And those instances when we let our passions get the best of us, we can apologize, not for our opinion but for how we stated it. That may include if our humor is misunderstood, too.
73
Loveschild,
I guess we've got a bad connection or something, because every time you kneel down to pray, I'm sending you a clear, direct message:
SHUT THE fuck UP already!
But, I guess, like everyone else's comments here, it's just not getting through your thick skull.
Damn girl, you whine more than Rush Limbaugh riding a 50 cc moped up Pikes Peak!
I guess we've got a bad connection or something, because every time you kneel down to pray, I'm sending you a clear, direct message:
SHUT THE fuck UP already!
But, I guess, like everyone else's comments here, it's just not getting through your thick skull.
Damn girl, you whine more than Rush Limbaugh riding a 50 cc moped up Pikes Peak!
74
71 Girl I already have, don't think about it anymore. That's what our (yours and mine) Savior commanded us to do.
72 Your right, I agree with you there.
72 Your right, I agree with you there.
75
Loveschild @ 70,
Just when I think you are getting what I am saying, you make a comment which indicates you don't. You asked in post 59, how you could make your comments more kind and respectful, post 64 contains my suggestions. I didn't tell you to go away, or to deny your opinion just asked you to be respectful. Does it not occur to you that Slog is kind of like a home, and when your commenting on a thread in someone's blog post your in their "home"? I try to keep my comments kind, thoughtful, and respectful as a result.
Just when I think you are getting what I am saying, you make a comment which indicates you don't. You asked in post 59, how you could make your comments more kind and respectful, post 64 contains my suggestions. I didn't tell you to go away, or to deny your opinion just asked you to be respectful. Does it not occur to you that Slog is kind of like a home, and when your commenting on a thread in someone's blog post your in their "home"? I try to keep my comments kind, thoughtful, and respectful as a result.
76
74,
Just saw your post, most likely eliminates post 75. Thanks for accepting my apology, and for forgiving me.
I'm going to put the youngest to bed. I don't know if I'll be back on. I am glad we had this thread chat. I hope you are, too.
Just saw your post, most likely eliminates post 75. Thanks for accepting my apology, and for forgiving me.
I'm going to put the youngest to bed. I don't know if I'll be back on. I am glad we had this thread chat. I hope you are, too.
77
I guess we're not supposed to expect more than a condescending joke from "the bloom of the civil rights movement" and the "harbinger of change" or whatever? Its a politically tricky issue still, and he certainly has time to redeem himself, but I'm not impressed either Dan.
78
I really do think that Obama is doing his best on gay rights with this joke. We all know that to do anything in the US at presidential level needs a softly softly approach and while I don't necessarily agree with this, I do think that in the long term this is the best way forward. We are the activists and agitators. Obama is the person who will ultimately take our action and do something with it.
One more thing, how many times did you hear that idiot Bush talk about gay marriage, other than to condemn it?? Here, we have a President not only acknowledging it, but the subtext is that he would agree with it. This is a huge leap forward and one that we activists need to seize on and take forward
One more thing, how many times did you hear that idiot Bush talk about gay marriage, other than to condemn it?? Here, we have a President not only acknowledging it, but the subtext is that he would agree with it. This is a huge leap forward and one that we activists need to seize on and take forward
79
Loveschild is undeserving of Kim's forgiveness. Yet Kim forgives her anyway.
Hey, LC, who does that remind you of?
Hey, LC, who does that remind you of?
80
Sometimes a joke is a joke is a joke. I write humor myself (not professionally, but I hope to one day) and I know that sometimes very well-intentioned people make jokes about touchy subjects that don't go over well. Obama's joke might not have been very wise, but I didn't detect any malice in it, or any attempt at trivializing the event (at least not intentionally). He was meaner to his own staff members.
That said, on the whole I kind of agree with you Dan. I do think he needs more time, but his outright silence on the issue is really questionable (which is where I agree with you about the Iowa joke, or certainly see your point at least). I think - or at least hope - that Obama is well intentioned, but I think that as with any elected official he will need to be "pushed" a little by activists and the larger public to get things done. Hopefully, the administration will start to really push for some of these issues soon, and the fact that there are people like you pushing the issue is a good sign to me that that will happen in time.
That said, on the whole I kind of agree with you Dan. I do think he needs more time, but his outright silence on the issue is really questionable (which is where I agree with you about the Iowa joke, or certainly see your point at least). I think - or at least hope - that Obama is well intentioned, but I think that as with any elected official he will need to be "pushed" a little by activists and the larger public to get things done. Hopefully, the administration will start to really push for some of these issues soon, and the fact that there are people like you pushing the issue is a good sign to me that that will happen in time.
81
@51...
This isn't the 80s or the 90s. So I as a homo am no longer happy to get the scraps of fairness. People who tell me things like this are totally well meaning. But the snake is out of the peanut can, and I can no longer stop bristling when I hear / read comments like that.
I'm married in Canada but single in Boston. How? What? Straight people ask me. Well, it goes like this: DOMA prevents my partner and me from getting married in my home state because she is a foreigner. Foreigners are the domain (ha, get it) of the federal govt. DOMA is a federal law saying that same-sex marriage won't be recognized by the feds even if it's legal in the states. The results of this are me driving every weekend up to Montreal to be with my gal.
I've been doing this for 7 years.
I'm 'lucky' because my partner is situated in a country and city that's close to me. I have friends of the homo persuasion who are unlucky, in that they've found partners who are from more distant lands like the Netherlands, England, and yes, Saudi Arabia. Nice commuting time there, if you can keep your head from getting chopped off. The thing about homos is that there aren't that many of us comparative to straight peeps. And so finding a suitable partner is a bit trickier. That's where the international element comes in. And if your partner's visa expires, there's not a lot you can do to keep him/her in the country.
So we're no longer in an era where we need to meet up with other homos in bars run by mafia. OK progress if you're looking at a chart. But you know what? It's like everyone is born with a disease that has a cure, but only the straight people get a cure, whereas the homos get nothing, or pain killers while the disease eats us up. Nothing like having a healthy person tell you while you're sick, hey, nice pain killers, right?
I am not likening being a homo to being sick. I am referring to the condition of being a homo in our country to being sick...for lack of a kinder metaphor.
Andrew Sullivan's post is a must read.
More...
still a little progressive...
This isn't the 80s or the 90s. So I as a homo am no longer happy to get the scraps of fairness. People who tell me things like this are totally well meaning. But the snake is out of the peanut can, and I can no longer stop bristling when I hear / read comments like that.
I'm married in Canada but single in Boston. How? What? Straight people ask me. Well, it goes like this: DOMA prevents my partner and me from getting married in my home state because she is a foreigner. Foreigners are the domain (ha, get it) of the federal govt. DOMA is a federal law saying that same-sex marriage won't be recognized by the feds even if it's legal in the states. The results of this are me driving every weekend up to Montreal to be with my gal.
I've been doing this for 7 years.
I'm 'lucky' because my partner is situated in a country and city that's close to me. I have friends of the homo persuasion who are unlucky, in that they've found partners who are from more distant lands like the Netherlands, England, and yes, Saudi Arabia. Nice commuting time there, if you can keep your head from getting chopped off. The thing about homos is that there aren't that many of us comparative to straight peeps. And so finding a suitable partner is a bit trickier. That's where the international element comes in. And if your partner's visa expires, there's not a lot you can do to keep him/her in the country.
So we're no longer in an era where we need to meet up with other homos in bars run by mafia. OK progress if you're looking at a chart. But you know what? It's like everyone is born with a disease that has a cure, but only the straight people get a cure, whereas the homos get nothing, or pain killers while the disease eats us up. Nothing like having a healthy person tell you while you're sick, hey, nice pain killers, right?
I am not likening being a homo to being sick. I am referring to the condition of being a homo in our country to being sick...for lack of a kinder metaphor.
Andrew Sullivan's post is a must read.
82
70, You don't know my feelings about African Americans. (Thinking that you do makes you a prejudiced bigot, not me.) I posted accurate statistics that you want to ignore, because it's easier to attack gay people than to work to actually do something of value for your community. I'm sorry you can't take the numbers, but posting real facts and figures does not equate to racism.
You are by far more racist, hateful, and bigoted than me, and you disguise your venom as "Christian love". You are one of those cafeteria Christians, picking from the scriptures what you want to follow, while leaving off your plate what you don't, and when someone points that out, you just ignore that person, like you do the scriptures. As with most pseudo-Christians, the scriptures you pick are the ones you can use to attack people you hate.
You are by far more racist, hateful, and bigoted than me, and you disguise your venom as "Christian love". You are one of those cafeteria Christians, picking from the scriptures what you want to follow, while leaving off your plate what you don't, and when someone points that out, you just ignore that person, like you do the scriptures. As with most pseudo-Christians, the scriptures you pick are the ones you can use to attack people you hate.
83
To add, what is more bigoted, me citing accurate, be they painful to hear, statistics, or, you saying that a whole class of human beings doesn't deserve the same human rights as you?
84
I believe our president will do many good things for us in the coming years. I also trust his judgement on timing.
85
I didn't read Obama's joke as condescending at all. It came across to me as more of a "isn't it great what's going on in Iowa?" kind of moment. I'm not gay, though, so I concede the issue doesn't carry as much emotional weight for me as it does for people who are.
86
LC, instead of instigating trouble and aggravating people here, why don't you make yourself useful and study a little history? You could use some grammar studies too.
Jesus is a myth and there are many parts of the Bible that were ripped off from other ancient cultures, like the Egyptians. The entire story of Mary's "immaculate conception" and Jesus dying on the cross and being resurrected from the dead three days later was a story that had been told many times and many millennia before Jesus supposedly existed. Your whole life is based on a myth, which you use to judge others.
I could give you many scriptures that would confirm that what you are doing on here is a sin, but I'm sure you won't listen as it seems that people like you only use the scripture that fits neatly into their lives.
You need to pray for forgiveness for your actions on this site...go away now....
Jesus is a myth and there are many parts of the Bible that were ripped off from other ancient cultures, like the Egyptians. The entire story of Mary's "immaculate conception" and Jesus dying on the cross and being resurrected from the dead three days later was a story that had been told many times and many millennia before Jesus supposedly existed. Your whole life is based on a myth, which you use to judge others.
I could give you many scriptures that would confirm that what you are doing on here is a sin, but I'm sure you won't listen as it seems that people like you only use the scripture that fits neatly into their lives.
You need to pray for forgiveness for your actions on this site...go away now....
87
Matt from Denver @ 79,
I don't agree. We all fall short, and the gift of forgiveness ... Well, it is a gift. One that I am grateful for.
Best wishes,
k
I don't agree. We all fall short, and the gift of forgiveness ... Well, it is a gift. One that I am grateful for.
Best wishes,
k
88
As a first step, why not consider cohabitating gay couples the same as straight? Like a common law situation, at least until the pro-gay marriage numbers are up? That way the fanatically religious can quit their bitching and gays can have access to the same privileges as straights.
89
The meaning, Dan, whatever your understanding of the inference, was they could launch a campaign together in Iowa. They did...and thank God. Yes, DADT needs to be repealed and it will be. There have been a few other issues of importance that need addressing (and they affect ALL citizens)...so let's be a little patient.
90
I didn't mind the joke, and in fact saw it as supportive of the effort, especially given the setting. The only reason there is a joke is because of the Iowa connection. But otherwise I think you're spot-on here. I confess to understanding that Obama can't do everything at once, and needs to consolidate "moderate" support, especially when his approval ratings among Democrats are so impressive. OK, he is a first-term president, I get it. But it's vital that civil rights advocates speak out against inaction, that is as it should be- Obama should not be allowed to assume the support of anyone, especially gay rights advocates, who honestly took a chance on him and have every right to feel nervous at this point.
It is to be hoped that continued pressure from the civil rights crowd and reasonable, practical arguments from the likes of Andrew and Dan will sway this president, and soon. If not he will definitely diminish in my eyes.
It is to be hoped that continued pressure from the civil rights crowd and reasonable, practical arguments from the likes of Andrew and Dan will sway this president, and soon. If not he will definitely diminish in my eyes.
91
I love you, Dan, but you got this one dead wrong. You see, the joke only works with Iowa. The double-entendre of "let's make it official" only works in a state that's always been the launching point of national campaigns that also just approved same-sex marriage. The joke doesn't work for Maine and it doesn't (not yet, but hopefully soon!) work in New Hampshire. I feel condescending spelling it out, but the humor of the joke was in a different place than where you were looking.
92
I love you, Dan, but you got this one dead wrong. You see, the joke only works with Iowa. The double-entendre of "let's make it official" only works in a state that's always been the launching point of national campaigns that also just approved same-sex marriage. The joke doesn't work for Maine and it doesn't (not yet, but hopefully soon!) work in New Hampshire. I feel condescending spelling it out, but the humor of the joke was in a different place than where you were looking.
94
Sheiler @81: Very well put.
If you equate the 'sickness' in your metaphor as "the need for a secure, loving relationship" (which is a basic human need) then indeed straight people get 'the cure' (their relationships are accepted culturally and legally) while same-sex (and other GLBT) couples do not.
It has never made any sense to me that a legally recognized marriage in one country wouldn't be recognized by the international agreements and treaties that validate the legality of certain contracts and legal proceedings across borders.
Otherwise, hetro couples should have to marry or re-marry every time they enter a new country (that is to say establish a contract that is recognized under the laws of the country that they've entered). After all, fair is fair.
Not recognizing a valid Canadian marriage in the U.S. devalues the validity of marriages performed outside the U.S. - in this case the 'threat to marriage' isn't from married same-sex couples but from restrictive policies/laws that refuse to recognize a marriage that wasn't performed within given borders with given restrictions.
The threat to marriage equality is the threat to marriage.
'Cause no one else is out there trying to prevent people who want to be married from being married except these wrongly named "pro-marriage" groups.
If you equate the 'sickness' in your metaphor as "the need for a secure, loving relationship" (which is a basic human need) then indeed straight people get 'the cure' (their relationships are accepted culturally and legally) while same-sex (and other GLBT) couples do not.
It has never made any sense to me that a legally recognized marriage in one country wouldn't be recognized by the international agreements and treaties that validate the legality of certain contracts and legal proceedings across borders.
Otherwise, hetro couples should have to marry or re-marry every time they enter a new country (that is to say establish a contract that is recognized under the laws of the country that they've entered). After all, fair is fair.
Not recognizing a valid Canadian marriage in the U.S. devalues the validity of marriages performed outside the U.S. - in this case the 'threat to marriage' isn't from married same-sex couples but from restrictive policies/laws that refuse to recognize a marriage that wasn't performed within given borders with given restrictions.
The threat to marriage equality is the threat to marriage.
'Cause no one else is out there trying to prevent people who want to be married from being married except these wrongly named "pro-marriage" groups.
96
Dan: You got on your soapbox (called "slog") and convinced all the west-coast fags to vote against Hillary (whom you at one time supported) and for Obama. You guys like to act like the clinton's were bad for gays because of DADT. If you remember before DADT, there was complete discrimination. Bill was smart to take baby steps on this topic and also took tremendous heat for allowing gays in the military (alibeit quietly). I hate you for sucking up to that complaining, whiney Britt called Andrew Sullivan and turning on our community. How long have you been at this to not have seen this coming? I blame YOU!
97
@88 Why not just do away with Marriage all together? Perhaps some sort of state sanctioned common law situation for all? Then people can have their own private religious ceremonies as is befitting to their particular religion, and it is not the actual religious act that is being recognized by the state. If we take the religious implications out of a state sanctioned act maybe we would all be a lot happier.
98
Thanks for the posting, Dan. This is what I've been feeling from the start, but the nice thing is that federalism, states' rights, is the answer that people have found for their lack of representation in the federal government.
Thank you. You said what's on my mind more clearly and more informed than I could've.
Thank you. You said what's on my mind more clearly and more informed than I could've.
99
Ever notice how you get to be an "activist" when you're a gay person asking for gay rights, but when you're a Christian peeping in other people's windows and telling them what they can and can't do you're just an "advocate?" Aw, shucks...
100
@ 97 - YES. The US government needs to be out of the marriage business altogether. Frankly, I thhink this is an issue where the gay community could really make inroads with straight people who are in the same predicament (so to speak). There are more non-married cohabitating couples (both straight & gay) in this country now than married couples. Our current governement-endorsded marriage system locks all those straight couples out of "marriage" rights along with gay couples. The system itself seeks to enforce the idea that only married couples are legimate, & thus entitled to state-given rights. That is totally unfair, not only to us (as gay people) but to everyone else who doesn't care to enter into the US government/judeo-christian institution of marriage. This seems like it could be a "Harvey Milk" moment for our community, a way to (begin to) break out of the conventions of 80s style identity politics, where it's just about our community & our rights. The institution of government-endorsed "marriage" in this country is unfair, period. Not just to us, but to everyone (well, except for traditionally religious people, to whom the institution is grotesquely skewed). I'm just sayin~
101
@ 100, do you have a link to support your statement that "There are more non-married cohabitating couples (both straight & gay) in this country now than married couples" ? Because I've never heard nor read that and don't believe it.
102
@ 101 - To Be Married Means to Be Outnumbered
By SAM ROBERTS
10/15/2006
"Married couples, whose numbers have been declining for decades as a proportion of American households, have finally slipped into a minority, according to an analysis of new census figures by The New York Times.
The American Community Survey, released this month by the Census Bureau, found that 49.7 percent, or 55.2 million, of the nation’s 111.1 million households in 2005 were made up of married couples — with and without children — just shy of a majority and down from more than 52 percent five years earlier.
The numbers by no means suggests marriage is dead or necessarily that a tipping point has been reached. The total number of married couples is higher than ever, and most Americans eventually marry. But marriage has been facing more competition. A growing number of adults are spending more of their lives single or living unmarried with partners, and the potential social and economic implications are profound."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/15/us/15c…
By SAM ROBERTS
10/15/2006
"Married couples, whose numbers have been declining for decades as a proportion of American households, have finally slipped into a minority, according to an analysis of new census figures by The New York Times.
The American Community Survey, released this month by the Census Bureau, found that 49.7 percent, or 55.2 million, of the nation’s 111.1 million households in 2005 were made up of married couples — with and without children — just shy of a majority and down from more than 52 percent five years earlier.
The numbers by no means suggests marriage is dead or necessarily that a tipping point has been reached. The total number of married couples is higher than ever, and most Americans eventually marry. But marriage has been facing more competition. A growing number of adults are spending more of their lives single or living unmarried with partners, and the potential social and economic implications are profound."
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/15/us/15c…
103
Another interesting resource I found doing a quick google search: http://www.unmarried.org/statistics.html
104
@ 103 - I saw that, too.
Actually, now that I look at the data a little more closely, I don't think the Census supports what I said. The statistic indicates that there is no longer a plurality of married American households, not necessarily that there are more non-married than married couples, so I will have to retract that particular statement. However, the statistic does clearly demonstrate that there are many millions of co-habitating straight & gay couples who are denied the basic rights that straight married couples are granted. I feel that the majority of what I said earlier is still applicable...
Actually, now that I look at the data a little more closely, I don't think the Census supports what I said. The statistic indicates that there is no longer a plurality of married American households, not necessarily that there are more non-married than married couples, so I will have to retract that particular statement. However, the statistic does clearly demonstrate that there are many millions of co-habitating straight & gay couples who are denied the basic rights that straight married couples are granted. I feel that the majority of what I said earlier is still applicable...
107
I don't remember Obama saying progress would be easy if we elected him. I think he said it would still be hard, just not impossible. The door is open for us to make this the country we want it to be. We saw last year how much power we have to make things happen. Dan, pick an issue to start with: DOMA, DADT, or the HIV-ban. Identify who in Congress is already on our side; who is willing to change for money or votes; and who on the other side is vulnerable in the next election. We raised huge sums of money for Obama last year; let's figure out how to target our money effectively this year, to make the change we all want to see. You have a big soap-box, Dan, let's see you use it to good effect. Maybe we can get Nate Silver on board to help us figure out how to run this campaign.
See http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/20…
"Rightly or wrongly, many of us in the movement felt [Clinton] was going to get rid of DADT," reflected Urvashi Vaid, executive director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Policy Institute ... "What people didn't think through," Vaid holds, "was the reaction that Congress would have. I don't think we spent enough time plotting out how we were going to deal with it."
And see:
http://www.military.com/news/article/mul…
See http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/20…
"Rightly or wrongly, many of us in the movement felt [Clinton] was going to get rid of DADT," reflected Urvashi Vaid, executive director of the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force Policy Institute ... "What people didn't think through," Vaid holds, "was the reaction that Congress would have. I don't think we spent enough time plotting out how we were going to deal with it."
And see:
http://www.military.com/news/article/mul…
108
Jason, take it all in, thanks for the links. I was only concerned about that one statement, not the bulk of Jason's post @ 100.
110
I suspect that there are benefits and penalties, both long- and short-term, from not having the political establishment fully embrace gay marriage equality, at least not yet. Personally, I'd prefer more vocal support from the Obama administration but, frankly, I think that we (supporters of gay rights) don't need it to ultimately succeed. Maybe it is because I live in CA and the memory of prop 8 is still fresh, but I am also wary of pushing things faster than the hetero-majority can keep up with as such overreach has the real possibility of empowering reactionary forces to mobilize support by claiming policies which are disproportionately supported by "elites" are being forced upon "regular" folk. However, knowing what actually constitutes pushing things too fast can be hard to predict and well, I forget my point now, but what initially motivated me to comment here was the impression that Dan needs to lighten the f*ck up - I mean, isn't the point of a roast to mock the shit out of anyone?
111
the man has been in office less than 6 months and already condemnation; as i recall, he ran on several issues and i certainly didn't expect him to change the last 8 years of bad policy over night.... finally, as a 30 something african american, who is unashamedly liberal and for the rights of ALL people, your LAME complaint makes it even more difficult for me to convince my parents that everyone deserves equal rights..... thank god you're not black growing up in the the 50s and 60s because if this upsets you, i don't know how you would've survived in "anytown america"......
112
Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't think Obama was mocking the idea of going to Iowa to consummate a same-sex marriage. Rather, I thought the joke was a clever play on the fact that the Iowa caucuses are the first major electoral event for the presidential campaign, so that's where Obama and Axelrod had to go to make the presidential run "official" in a jokey sense.
I'm 100% for same-sex marriage (and deeply ashamed of CA/Prop 8) but I thought the joke was funny.
I'm 100% for same-sex marriage (and deeply ashamed of CA/Prop 8) but I thought the joke was funny.
113
Hmmm, ok - I can understand being upset at what seemed an inappropriate joke, but to be mad because what was promised during campaign and hasn't been realized by the "GAYS" in the 1st 100 days is ludicrous. If the nation DIDN'T HAVE the number of MAJOR problems it NOW has I would say yeah You been punked. But given the gravity and the number of MAJOR issues this prez is faced with I say to Dan Savage, "get in line and wait your turn!".
Be reasonable, I for one feel there are waaay more pressing issues at this point in time than GAY MARRIAGE. The gay marriage issue won't help solve the economy, the banks, the enviornment, education, either of the wars, health care, social security, or even make better relations that were damn near severed by the previous administration with basically the GLOBE.
Considering what's at stake I think it's pretty petty of Dan Savage to be soo impatient. Besides, seems to me the number of states are picking up steam that are acknowledging that gay marriage is ok. Hmmm, would any of the southern-conservative states be ok w/ gay marriage? Just a thought/question.
Be reasonable, I for one feel there are waaay more pressing issues at this point in time than GAY MARRIAGE. The gay marriage issue won't help solve the economy, the banks, the enviornment, education, either of the wars, health care, social security, or even make better relations that were damn near severed by the previous administration with basically the GLOBE.
Considering what's at stake I think it's pretty petty of Dan Savage to be soo impatient. Besides, seems to me the number of states are picking up steam that are acknowledging that gay marriage is ok. Hmmm, would any of the southern-conservative states be ok w/ gay marriage? Just a thought/question.
114
Obama administration's statement in reaction to the Iowa Supreme Court's decision allowing same-sex marriage:
"The President respects the decision of the Iowa Supreme Court, and continues to believe that states should make their own decisions when it comes to the issue of marriage. Although President Obama supports civil unions rather than same-sex marriage, he believes that committed gay and lesbian couples should receive equal rights under the law."
http://vodpod.com/watch/1492725-the-iowa…
Obama's letter (09.04.28) to Congress urging passage of hate crimes legislation:
"This week, the House of Representatives is expected to consider H.R. 1913, the Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2009. I urge members on both sides of the aisle to act on this important civil rights issue by passing this legislation to protect all of our citizens from violent acts of intolerance — legislation that will enhance civil rights protections, while also protecting our freedom of speech and association. I also urge the Senate to work with my Administration to finalize this bill and to take swift action."
legislationhttp://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promise/290/push-for-enactment-of-matthew-shepard-act-which-e/
"The President respects the decision of the Iowa Supreme Court, and continues to believe that states should make their own decisions when it comes to the issue of marriage. Although President Obama supports civil unions rather than same-sex marriage, he believes that committed gay and lesbian couples should receive equal rights under the law."
http://vodpod.com/watch/1492725-the-iowa…
Obama's letter (09.04.28) to Congress urging passage of hate crimes legislation:
"This week, the House of Representatives is expected to consider H.R. 1913, the Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2009. I urge members on both sides of the aisle to act on this important civil rights issue by passing this legislation to protect all of our citizens from violent acts of intolerance — legislation that will enhance civil rights protections, while also protecting our freedom of speech and association. I also urge the Senate to work with my Administration to finalize this bill and to take swift action."
legislationhttp://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/promise/290/push-for-enactment-of-matthew-shepard-act-which-e/
116
@114
Ah, but that was the second statement issued by the White House in response to the Iowa ruling. Here was the first.
"The President respects the decision of the Iowa Supreme Court, and continues to believe that states should make their own decisions when it comes to the issue of marriage. Although President Obama supports civil unions rather than same-sex marriage, he believes that committed gay and lesbian couples should receive protection under the law."
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/1023…
Oh, and the grade is I but I do have to send a progress report to President Obama's House.
Ah, but that was the second statement issued by the White House in response to the Iowa ruling. Here was the first.
"The President respects the decision of the Iowa Supreme Court, and continues to believe that states should make their own decisions when it comes to the issue of marriage. Although President Obama supports civil unions rather than same-sex marriage, he believes that committed gay and lesbian couples should receive protection under the law."
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/1023…
Oh, and the grade is I but I do have to send a progress report to President Obama's House.
117
Can comment #116 be deleted,please?
Or at least the link on #116. Please?
The comment itself can stay. But I would prefer for the link not to be there.
If you must delete the entire comment, so be it.
Thanks.
Or at least the link on #116. Please?
The comment itself can stay. But I would prefer for the link not to be there.
If you must delete the entire comment, so be it.
Thanks.
120
Did you not catch that he wasn't "making it official" by marrying? He was talking about "making it official" by running in the Iowa caucuses Dan. Look at what he said, he said that Axlerod said to make it official years ago. The point is that in the context that they were talking about, it was about running for President, whereas due to recent events changing the context, the quote has a totally different meaning!
121
I think that being offended that there was a joke missed the point that gays were not the butt of the joke but rather, that despite continued pockets of opposition, states are embracing gay marriage even in middle America. The joke was on the folks who have to swallow that reality. Progress is happening and expecting him to wave his magic presidential pen and make it all perfect overnight isn't reasonable. In fact, if lets things happen without him, lets America speak up for itself, as in Iowa, and use his power to effect things carefully he reduces the risk of creating a backlash that could halt progress and waste time. We want a solution that will hold, not something like what happened in California where instead of 2 steps forward one step back we got 1step forward and 2 steps back because it's just not enough to make something a law apparently. Which sucks.
Also, there are a lot of very important issues on the presidents agenda. Frankly this is not the most important. I'd like to hear the opinion of gay folks who are being affected by the economy. Which is more important to focus on right this minute?
Given how much as been done in the last hundred days, I suspect that there is more in motion than you know, even if it is less than you would like to see publicly. But it's not center stage. War and the economy are and that is appropriate.
Also, there are a lot of very important issues on the presidents agenda. Frankly this is not the most important. I'd like to hear the opinion of gay folks who are being affected by the economy. Which is more important to focus on right this minute?
Given how much as been done in the last hundred days, I suspect that there is more in motion than you know, even if it is less than you would like to see publicly. But it's not center stage. War and the economy are and that is appropriate.
122
Dan, I agree with everything that you've written and said here. I understand, on a rational level, how we can be overlooked in these first 100 days. We're a relatively small community (i.e., voting block) and the straight majority don't have a clue about how they are denying us our rights. It's ignorance, but we need a President that will go against the prevailing culture, not make a joke out of our plight, and be a true leader of change even if he might be unpopular for it. I want to be hopeful but after so waiting so long and getting so little, it gets tougher each day to believe that change will come anytime soon or even within this administration. For me, the answer lies in educating the ignorant, but supportive straight allies and then separating religion and the state. No small tasks but the only way to do move forward. No more gay marches for me until the emphasis is on getting our straight allies into the streets with us.
123
Like any politician's promises to a constituency, Obama's promises were vague and lacking concrete terms because it saves him the trouble of repaying perceived debts such as the one you perceive here.
Obama is a religious conservative that has to keep his religious beliefs locked up because of the platform of the party that subsidizes his political career. He's going to dodge the issue as long as he can.
Obama is a religious conservative that has to keep his religious beliefs locked up because of the platform of the party that subsidizes his political career. He's going to dodge the issue as long as he can.
124
This reminds me of when Obama was going to join the Special Olympics bowling team, that was a big laugh too.
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