Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, May 12, 2009
Homo What He Said
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, May 12, 2009 at 2:06 PM
Donald Trump defended Miss CA today by pointing out that her position—marriage is between a man and a woman—is no different than Barack Obama's position.
First, Barack Obama supports—or so we were lead to believe—the repeal of DOMA and the creation of federal civil unions that would confer all the rights and responsibilities of marriage on same-sex couples. Miss CA—who at first seemed to believe that same-sex marriage was legal across the United States—has crawled into bed with anti-gay bigots who oppose any legal recognition of same-sex relationships. The National Organization for Marriage crowd opposes domestic partnerships and civil unions, arguing that the latter is just a step in the direction of same-sex marriage. Which they are. NOM opposes the repeal of DOMA. So Trump and Miss CA shouldn't be allowed to argue that Miss CA takes takes the same position Obama does when it comes to same-sex couples when Miss CA is out there raising money for the scum at NOM.
Now here's John at Americablog on Trump and Miss CA pointing to Barack Obama's position on same-sex marriage:
It's part of a pattern that started last year during the Prop 8 battle over gay marriage in California. The religious right, at that time, invoked Barack Obama's "opposition" to gay marriage as a reason to vote for their cause. Since that time, the comparisons to Obama have only grown louder.... What does this mean and why am I writing about it? Because we've come to the point where Obama can no longer duck the question. Gay civil rights are roaring ahead like a runaway freedom train, and it's only a matter of time before the Obama administration, whether they like it or not—and it increasingly looks like "not"—are going to have to start answering some questions, if not actually do something, about their commitment to gay civil rights.
Gays and lesbians have endured too many "poorly-resolved gay bimbo eruptions" over the last year, says John, and he foresees a showdown with the Obama administration over gay rights. I think it may be time to march on Washington. Read John's whole post here.
1
Let's try this one again. More predictions, in no particular order:
-It's about time
-Obama won't do it
-"But he says so on his website!"
-Loveschild threatens us, saying "remember what happened to Clinton? Don't screw this up, you disgusting perverts!", 40% chance of references to a gay mafia, homoconspiracy or gay thugs "like Dan Savage" or "like Queen Dan".
-People point to polls showing a continuing increase in support for marriage equality since the early 90s
-"You only use polls when they're convenient!"
-Obama won't do it
-Bailomania
-Sargon says something about "what is this gay marriage thing you speak of" or "it's not real marriage, it's gay marriage, not real marriage!!"
-It's about time
-Obama won't do it
-"But he says so on his website!"
-Loveschild threatens us, saying "remember what happened to Clinton? Don't screw this up, you disgusting perverts!", 40% chance of references to a gay mafia, homoconspiracy or gay thugs "like Dan Savage" or "like Queen Dan".
-People point to polls showing a continuing increase in support for marriage equality since the early 90s
-"You only use polls when they're convenient!"
-Obama won't do it
-Bailomania
-Sargon says something about "what is this gay marriage thing you speak of" or "it's not real marriage, it's gay marriage, not real marriage!!"
6
http://www.pensitoreview.com/2009/05/08/…
Only 20% of Americans approved of Interracial Marriage when it was legalized in the 60s.
Only 20% of Americans approved of Interracial Marriage when it was legalized in the 60s.
7
The thing about John Aravosis is: he's really dumb (remember when he complained about the Holocaust museum in DC having too much information?), and he doesn't have any capacity for understanding how LGBT issues intersect with race, class, sexism, etc.
This doesn't mean he's not capable of being an effective activist; he's good at rallying the troops. But he's a terrible person to look to for analysis, and I'm consistently puzzled by why Dan continues to look to Americablog for analysis.
This doesn't mean he's not capable of being an effective activist; he's good at rallying the troops. But he's a terrible person to look to for analysis, and I'm consistently puzzled by why Dan continues to look to Americablog for analysis.
10
And the equality groups sat on a letter from Obama opposing Prop 8. Aravosis is an idiot, Dan. Stop quoting an idiot.
The religious right, at that time, invoked Barack Obama's "opposition" to gay marriage as a reason to vote for their cause.
And the equality groups sat on a letter from Obama opposing Prop 8. Aravosis is an idiot, Dan. Stop quoting an idiot.
11
So now that the forces that be (political/ideological groups) were not able to bring down Miss Cali the focus and attacks will be directed at our President. Way to go patriots, this will backfire worst than your viciousness towards Miss Cali did.
12
Baconcat forgot that Kim in Portland will have something insightful, interesting, and kind to say. Otherwise it's a bang up list.
14
In case you haven't noticed, Obama likes to simply let the waves of controversy flow over and around him while others fight the battle.
Look how he's handling the whole torture thing. He simply releases information on torture, quietly and without fanfare, and lets Cheney freak out while Ventura and Lieberman attack him over and over. It's brilliant, because his foes are humiliated and destroyed while he gets to look like a low-key "not looking for trouble" kind of guy.
That's how he's playing it here. Obama realizes that gay rights are evolving and progressing incredibly rapidly without him having to lift a finger. Once the outcome is obvious to all and the anger burned to cinders, that's when he'll make some kind of move. In a nutshell, he could make it happen faster, but he'd rather have it take another few years and have a bit less mud on his face at the end.
Does this make him pragmatic and crafty or craven and self-serving? Or all of the above? Who knows. But one thing's for sure: he will do everything he can to keep from being pinned down on this one. Maybe we can box him into a corner, maybe we can't.
Look how he's handling the whole torture thing. He simply releases information on torture, quietly and without fanfare, and lets Cheney freak out while Ventura and Lieberman attack him over and over. It's brilliant, because his foes are humiliated and destroyed while he gets to look like a low-key "not looking for trouble" kind of guy.
That's how he's playing it here. Obama realizes that gay rights are evolving and progressing incredibly rapidly without him having to lift a finger. Once the outcome is obvious to all and the anger burned to cinders, that's when he'll make some kind of move. In a nutshell, he could make it happen faster, but he'd rather have it take another few years and have a bit less mud on his face at the end.
Does this make him pragmatic and crafty or craven and self-serving? Or all of the above? Who knows. But one thing's for sure: he will do everything he can to keep from being pinned down on this one. Maybe we can box him into a corner, maybe we can't.
15
Loveschild,
You can continue with your name calling, but it will not do any good. Our President gave his word. The questions is does he have the integrity to honor his word.
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/lgbt.pdf
"Support Full Civil Unions and Federal Rights for LGBT Couples
Barack Obama supports full civil unions that give same-sex couples equal legal rights and privileges as
married couples, including the right to assist their loved ones in times of emergency as well as equal
health insurance, employment benefits, and property and adoption rights. Obama also believes we need
to fully repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and enact legislation that would ensure that the 1,100+ federal
legal rights and benefits currently provided on the basis of marital status are extended to same-sex
couples in civil unions and other legally-recognized unions."
You can continue with your name calling, but it will not do any good. Our President gave his word. The questions is does he have the integrity to honor his word.
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/lgbt.pdf
"Support Full Civil Unions and Federal Rights for LGBT Couples
Barack Obama supports full civil unions that give same-sex couples equal legal rights and privileges as
married couples, including the right to assist their loved ones in times of emergency as well as equal
health insurance, employment benefits, and property and adoption rights. Obama also believes we need
to fully repeal the Defense of Marriage Act and enact legislation that would ensure that the 1,100+ federal
legal rights and benefits currently provided on the basis of marital status are extended to same-sex
couples in civil unions and other legally-recognized unions."
16
Is he a man who's words have meaning?
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/lgbt.pdf
"Oppose a Constitutional Ban on Same-Sex Marriage
Obama voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment, which would have defined marriage as between
a man and a woman and prevented judicial extension of marriage-like rights to same-sex or other unmarried
couples."
"Repeal Don’t Ask-Don’t Tell
Obama believes we need to repeal the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. The key test for military service
should be patriotism, a sense of duty, and a willingness to serve. Obama will work with military leaders
to repeal the current policy and ensure we accomplish our national defense goals."
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/lgbt.pdf
"Oppose a Constitutional Ban on Same-Sex Marriage
Obama voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment, which would have defined marriage as between
a man and a woman and prevented judicial extension of marriage-like rights to same-sex or other unmarried
couples."
"Repeal Don’t Ask-Don’t Tell
Obama believes we need to repeal the “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy. The key test for military service
should be patriotism, a sense of duty, and a willingness to serve. Obama will work with military leaders
to repeal the current policy and ensure we accomplish our national defense goals."
17
Are Obama's words trustworthy?
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/lgbt.pdf
"Expand Hate Crimes Statutes
In 2004, crimes against LGBT Americans constituted the third-highest category of hate crime reported.
Obama co-sponsored legislation to expand federal hate crimes law to include crimes perpetrated
because of sexual orientation or gender identity."
"Fight Workplace Discrimination and Promote Rights
Obama believes the Employment Non-Discrimination Act should be expanded to include sexual orientation
and gender identity. Obama sponsored legislation in the Illinois State Senate that would ban employment
discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation."
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/lgbt.pdf
"Expand Hate Crimes Statutes
In 2004, crimes against LGBT Americans constituted the third-highest category of hate crime reported.
Obama co-sponsored legislation to expand federal hate crimes law to include crimes perpetrated
because of sexual orientation or gender identity."
"Fight Workplace Discrimination and Promote Rights
Obama believes the Employment Non-Discrimination Act should be expanded to include sexual orientation
and gender identity. Obama sponsored legislation in the Illinois State Senate that would ban employment
discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation."
18
@12: I think her comments fall under "But he says so on his website!" with a dash of the usual k.i.p. brand of Loveschild pwnage.
19
The problem is not the "patriots", the problem is with Obama. It's his promises that he must honor.
Nehemiah 5:13
I also shook out my robe and said, "In this way may God shake out of his house and possessions every man who does not keep his promise. So may such a man be shaken out and emptied!"
I still believe, and I still hope, that President Obama is indeed a man of his word. Both worthy of our trust and our confidence.
Nehemiah 5:13
I also shook out my robe and said, "In this way may God shake out of his house and possessions every man who does not keep his promise. So may such a man be shaken out and emptied!"
I still believe, and I still hope, that President Obama is indeed a man of his word. Both worthy of our trust and our confidence.
24
To Kim and all others, our President's view on marriage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUMwQcMVm…
I agree with him one hundred percent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUMwQcMVm…
I agree with him one hundred percent.
25
"poorly-resolved gay bimbo eruptions"
Is that when bitter gay bloggers latch onto a scapegoat and spend a month digging up dirt, only to find nothing of consequence?
Is that when bitter gay bloggers latch onto a scapegoat and spend a month digging up dirt, only to find nothing of consequence?
26
Loveschild,
Here he is in his own words. Obama will either choose to be proactive or he can choose to wait for the issue to become forced upon him. It is within his power to give assurance, that he intends to honor his word.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZPxCotpq…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73oZ_pe1M…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlY9HFRNU…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLhf1YGVi…
Here he is in his own words. Obama will either choose to be proactive or he can choose to wait for the issue to become forced upon him. It is within his power to give assurance, that he intends to honor his word.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZPxCotpq…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73oZ_pe1M…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlY9HFRNU…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLhf1YGVi…
27
Loveschild,
Do you agree with him on all the other videos, too? He has a lot more to say, than just an 8 second sound bite at Saddleback Community Church.
Does your video negate all his other promises? I don't think it does.
Do you agree with him on all the other videos, too? He has a lot more to say, than just an 8 second sound bite at Saddleback Community Church.
Does your video negate all his other promises? I don't think it does.
28
@24: Funny, Loveschild, your polling seems to be off. 100%, you say? I think that's an arbitrary number, maybe you should re-poll your sample, because I think you're bothered by Obama's promises and are secretly hoping he's lying. Yes, Loveschild, you want the president to be a cold and manipulative liar. I think your 100% agreement is actually a waffling 50% because you're so afraid he'll keep his word, so you pray each night that Obama lied. You pray for him to sin.
Polls are trending in the favor of equality and toward people of faith like Obama who are clearly not opposed to fundamental rights, even if these rights don't match his ideal. Obama can say he holds an ideal, holds certain views and maintain them without infringing on the rights of others to exercise their own rights. It's an intelligent move, given the social shift.
But go ahead, accuse others of calling him a liar when your deepest wish is that he is exactly that.
Polls are trending in the favor of equality and toward people of faith like Obama who are clearly not opposed to fundamental rights, even if these rights don't match his ideal. Obama can say he holds an ideal, holds certain views and maintain them without infringing on the rights of others to exercise their own rights. It's an intelligent move, given the social shift.
But go ahead, accuse others of calling him a liar when your deepest wish is that he is exactly that.
29
Our President is an honest man, I believe him when he says he believes marriage is the union of a man and a woman, I believe him when he says that for him "as a Christian it's also a sacred union, God's in the mix" I believe him when he says "he's not somebody who's about promote same sex marriage", I also believe him when he says he believes in civil unions (as I do), and so do the vast majority of americans. Our President is no liar.
Polls are better exercised through the voting process, if gay groups are so confident why do they put so many obstacles on the american people when they want to exercise they democratic rights? How are gay groups going to force "upon him" (our President) gay marriage?
Polls are better exercised through the voting process, if gay groups are so confident why do they put so many obstacles on the american people when they want to exercise they democratic rights? How are gay groups going to force "upon him" (our President) gay marriage?
30
Yeek @14 basically summarized my thoughts, but for those who only read the comments at the bottom:
Why would he need to do anything right now? At this rate, most of the US is going to legalize gay *marriage*, nevermind civil unions. At that point, he can say, "well, obviously we need to repeal DOMA now" and who could contradict him?
Only if the tide starts shifting in the other direction would he really need to do or say anything. In fact, calls for him to say anything would be detrimental to the cause - they'll rally the far right. As of now, they're rudderless and inactive. That would change very quickly if Obama went on the offensive.
Why would he need to do anything right now? At this rate, most of the US is going to legalize gay *marriage*, nevermind civil unions. At that point, he can say, "well, obviously we need to repeal DOMA now" and who could contradict him?
Only if the tide starts shifting in the other direction would he really need to do or say anything. In fact, calls for him to say anything would be detrimental to the cause - they'll rally the far right. As of now, they're rudderless and inactive. That would change very quickly if Obama went on the offensive.
31
@29: You've come out against civil unions in the past, so you're lying again. And with your hopes that Obama stands against something he said he wouldn't stand against (state-level marriage equality with federal protection and civil unions mandated for states without an equality statute) and hasn't stood against (see his opposition to Prop 8), you are proving to be incredibly two-faced and a self-serving liar. You wrap your hatred in slap-dash interpretations of scripture and cherry-picked quotes that haven't got the written dedication that Kim has displayed for equality. Your truths are merely lies covered in fool's gold.
You're also highly predictable, following to the letter everything I proposed you'd say and do in this thread, including the whole shtick of "polls don't matter, votes matter", which ignores the fact that so much of our shared experience in this country went without a vote. Were you to leave it up to the people, you would have been a second-class citizen until 1991 instead of just someone with second-class hatred.
You only hear what you want, you only see what you want, you only believe what you want. You don't believe in the rights of others to be or do what they want, you only want a society where people follow lock-step with this "do as I say, not as I do" rhetoric, and you lie to the highest of heavens that your god ignore the falsehoods you speak, like telling folks that 12% of the population is oppressing 60%.
You will say whatever it takes to get people to believe otherwise about you, talking about how you're doing this "for the kids". In this context, it means you want children to be liars, homophobes, oppressors and ignorant of history.
You only say polls don't matter because they are an indictment of you and your insufferably biased mindset. And the narrative you write, the one where you're a victim? It's all in your head. You can either treat others as equals and be treated as an equal or you can be locked forever in a balkanized existence where your only friends keep you around for your views but would just as soon dispose of you for your skin color.
More...
You're also highly predictable, following to the letter everything I proposed you'd say and do in this thread, including the whole shtick of "polls don't matter, votes matter", which ignores the fact that so much of our shared experience in this country went without a vote. Were you to leave it up to the people, you would have been a second-class citizen until 1991 instead of just someone with second-class hatred.
You only hear what you want, you only see what you want, you only believe what you want. You don't believe in the rights of others to be or do what they want, you only want a society where people follow lock-step with this "do as I say, not as I do" rhetoric, and you lie to the highest of heavens that your god ignore the falsehoods you speak, like telling folks that 12% of the population is oppressing 60%.
You will say whatever it takes to get people to believe otherwise about you, talking about how you're doing this "for the kids". In this context, it means you want children to be liars, homophobes, oppressors and ignorant of history.
You only say polls don't matter because they are an indictment of you and your insufferably biased mindset. And the narrative you write, the one where you're a victim? It's all in your head. You can either treat others as equals and be treated as an equal or you can be locked forever in a balkanized existence where your only friends keep you around for your views but would just as soon dispose of you for your skin color.
32
Loveschild,
You are again in favor of civil unions? You withdrew your support in April, when Vermont's legislature voted in favor of same-sex marriage. If so, I am glad to hear it.
I'd be in favor of civil unions if they offered the exact same legal and social benefits (on the state and federal level) as "traditional marriage". Alas, they don't and that is why I am in favor of same-sex marriage. I'm against inequality, I'm against any person being seen as less than, be it for ethnicity, sexual orientation, or religion. So, if civil unions ends up the semantic choice, I don't want to be married anymore, I will join the ranks of those united in civil unions. I just do not believe in separate but equal. I'm still hoping people will realize that the world won't come to an end as more same-sex couples get married. That marriage is a big umbrella and it can handle both, and we will all come to realize that we share more things in common than we think.
Anyhoo... I like this one of President Obama the best! Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4KKU1A4q…
You are again in favor of civil unions? You withdrew your support in April, when Vermont's legislature voted in favor of same-sex marriage. If so, I am glad to hear it.
I'd be in favor of civil unions if they offered the exact same legal and social benefits (on the state and federal level) as "traditional marriage". Alas, they don't and that is why I am in favor of same-sex marriage. I'm against inequality, I'm against any person being seen as less than, be it for ethnicity, sexual orientation, or religion. So, if civil unions ends up the semantic choice, I don't want to be married anymore, I will join the ranks of those united in civil unions. I just do not believe in separate but equal. I'm still hoping people will realize that the world won't come to an end as more same-sex couples get married. That marriage is a big umbrella and it can handle both, and we will all come to realize that we share more things in common than we think.
Anyhoo... I like this one of President Obama the best! Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4KKU1A4q…
33
loveschild, you don't put gay marriage to a public vote because the rights of a minority should never be decided on by a majority. see thomas jefferson for that one. who knows how long it would have taken to get anti-miscegenation laws off the books. actually, it would have taken until just a few years ago, when alabama finally got rid of its law.
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