Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, May 12, 2009
Boom It's Not Just the Economy
Posted by Dominic Holden on Tue, May 12, 2009 at 10:45 AM
Darrel Vange, a developer with plans for a massive shopping mall next to Little Saigon, announced recently that the bad economy forced him to cancel the project. I got Vange on the phone to ask why the recession was affecting this project more than others—most developers are simply delaying plans for a year or two—or if there was more going on. From an online piece this week:
The proposed development on Rainier Avenue South and South Dearborn Street—a gargantuan 700,000-square-foot, multistory mall with retail, 200 housing units, and 2,300 parking spaces—was one of a dying breed.Plenty of other big local developers are sitting out the recession and building when the economy recovers. Take the 38-story office tower on Fifth Avenue and Columbia Street, proposed by Kevin Daniels, principal of the development firm Nitze-Stagen. "I'm looking at the end of 2012," Daniels says. Or the $75 million, three-building housing development proposed in the Central District by developer Jim Mueller, who says he's waiting for the lending markets to thaw before breaking ground.
The rest is here.
Vange also said something that isn't in the piece: “It was clear that we weren’t going to get the sorts of commitments for the project we needed. Most of the retailers that would be going into the project have also all slowed down.” While the anchor tenant, Target, is dogpaddling in the recession, selling affordable house wares, several other tenants who would fill out the shopping mall aren’t. Those, he says, are “large national retailers” and their products don't "sit on the shelf as long as" housing and office space. Translation: Chain retailers that populate malls aren't interested in setting up shop in Seattle now, and they won't in the future, either.
I'm bummed that Seattle loses this opportunity for a Target near downtown. Right now, to to buy a barbecue or 40-pack of discount white briefs, you have to drive a zillion miles to Northgate—which, I believe, is just south of Anchorage. But I think we can still get stores like Target closer to downtown. Under a proposed set of rules for south Downtown, developers on the Dearborn site would be allowed to build up to 160 feet tall, which is tall enough for a big box and parking, meaning the city doesn't face a choice between no development or the shopping mall.
2
I too am pissed about this being canceled! Its a PAIN IN THE ASS hauling your shit on the bus from Target on the bus.. and everyone else on the bus hates you for taking up so much room.
Seattle is SO damn expensive because crap like this. More big box stores in the city core please. More fast food too.
YEAH, I said it. Im sure the environuts HATE that idea, but im already doing my part by riding the damn bus, so bite me.
Seattle is SO damn expensive because crap like this. More big box stores in the city core please. More fast food too.
YEAH, I said it. Im sure the environuts HATE that idea, but im already doing my part by riding the damn bus, so bite me.
4
did you seriously just endorse the union-busting big box retailer Target? they force their employees to sit through captive audience meetings, watch anti-union videos, and sign a statement opposing unionization just to be hired. Target would devastate small retailers in central Seattle and provide only shitty, no-health care jobs. fuck that, Dominic.
5
Northgate is a unendurable 5 minute drive on I-5 from downtown. And buses go there. All the buses go there, all the time...
7
No, Seattle isn't expensive because of "crap like this." Seattle is expensive because Paul Allen et al's employees can afford to pay for huge condos, groceries at Whole Foods, and tschochkes at the boutiques downtown. And the lack of Targets downtown has nothing to do with environuts.
It takes 15 minutes to get from downtown to Northgate. If you want to live right near a big box store, do so.
It takes 15 minutes to get from downtown to Northgate. If you want to live right near a big box store, do so.
8
I am tickled that the smaller, locally owned stores nearby might survive the downturn without the big-boxes horning in. I hope they can continue to be able to make a respectable living for their families and employ locals, while selling similar goods to Target's at prices that are only infinitesimally higher compared to the immense local multiplier benefit.
It cracks me up that some of us are delighted to pay extra for locally sourced food, but won't open the purse a bit wider to buy a 40-pack of tighty whities somewhere that puts more of our money to work locally.
It cracks me up that some of us are delighted to pay extra for locally sourced food, but won't open the purse a bit wider to buy a 40-pack of tighty whities somewhere that puts more of our money to work locally.
9
Read what the article said.
It's the financing.
The problem is not the project, it's suitability, or anything else.
It's the freezing of the credit markets - they were just discussing this on CNBC today - they're still not unfrozen, more like glacial slush that's almost frozen.
It's the financing.
The problem is not the project, it's suitability, or anything else.
It's the freezing of the credit markets - they were just discussing this on CNBC today - they're still not unfrozen, more like glacial slush that's almost frozen.
10
Get your ass on a bus and try that trip to Target sometime, Dominic. Northgate is about 10 miles away from downtown, and it takes about 30 minutes to get there by bus. Hell, after the UW it's probably the best-served spot north of the ship canal.
If you have a car you can just get on I-5 and go straight to it. Really! Exit 173 puts you literally in front of the mall. Oh, hey, and did I mention there's free parking?
If you have a car you can just get on I-5 and go straight to it. Really! Exit 173 puts you literally in front of the mall. Oh, hey, and did I mention there's free parking?
12
Local small stores cost TOO DAMN MUCH most of the time and offer a TINY selection.
Not all of us work for MS or BOEING and can afford these stores. Some of us are working our ASSES off just to get by... fuck all you for being smug with your locally over priced items. Im glad you can afford to overpay, but I hope that 'piece of mind' you are getting is nothing but shallow BS.
and as to the union comment - WHY THE HELL DO CASHIERS NEED A UNION? SERIOUSLY. They are not skilled professionals. They are working crappy jobs just like tons of other people who get A LOT LESS for doing a lot more. SUck it up.
Not all of us work for MS or BOEING and can afford these stores. Some of us are working our ASSES off just to get by... fuck all you for being smug with your locally over priced items. Im glad you can afford to overpay, but I hope that 'piece of mind' you are getting is nothing but shallow BS.
and as to the union comment - WHY THE HELL DO CASHIERS NEED A UNION? SERIOUSLY. They are not skilled professionals. They are working crappy jobs just like tons of other people who get A LOT LESS for doing a lot more. SUck it up.
13
BESIDES --- If these little local stores were such a value.... and Target is SO bad.... ONE Target shouldnt cause them any problems. Right?
14
Target also doesn't require their pharmacists to fill legal birth control or emergency contraception prescriptions. (Not such an issue in WA state anymore, but still a problem in many parts of the country). I do miss shopping there, but three years Target free and my life has continued pretty much the same as always.
15
The products all come from the same place, China. The small mom and pop local places just charge a lot more for the exact same thing and they don't have unions or benefits either. But no big box chain in Seattle and no more fast food on Capitol Hill. Seattle is already the laughing stock of the 'burbs who are able to stretch their limited dough much further than people in the city. Keep spending stupid prices and thinking you are helping local families. You're actually helping some immigrant's family back in their home country which is just as good I suppose.
16
Aww, dammit. I heart Target and not having heard the bad stuff about them that I heard about Walmart, I was hoping they had somewhat of a social conscience. Another thing to cut out to save the goddamn world. Argh.
17
"Seattle is already the laughing stock of the 'burbs "
isn't the 'burbs that come here to play cause its hip AND not filled with crappy chain stores.
i'm tired of hearing about how much t.p. costs at the corner store from young hipsters when they're probably paying $130/month for their i-phone.
isn't the 'burbs that come here to play cause its hip AND not filled with crappy chain stores.
i'm tired of hearing about how much t.p. costs at the corner store from young hipsters when they're probably paying $130/month for their i-phone.
18
Costco has everything I would imagine needing from Target or Walmart. The SODO location is convenient to bike and bus to (though to be honest I drive for a costco size load). They're also local and seem more socially conscious than the other two, at least in terms of adequately paying their employees.
19
Face it: In this town, as in most places in the world, cars are virtually indispensable. Though I would love to watch you drag a barbecue home on the bus.
(Sorry...the weather has me in a contrarian mood)
(Sorry...the weather has me in a contrarian mood)
21
How often does someone who proudly lives in a densely urban location need to use a car to get something like a balcony BBQ? Often enough to maybe use something like ZipCar, but you don't need to OWN a car. Also, while it may be more expensive, you can't get that BBQ or MegaEconomyPack of briefs delivered to you instead?
I mean, if you're getting large property amenities *all the time*, maybe you shouldn't live somewhere that's so densely urban? There's a certain line you cross when your buying habits conflict with your actual habitat.
I mean, if you're getting large property amenities *all the time*, maybe you shouldn't live somewhere that's so densely urban? There's a certain line you cross when your buying habits conflict with your actual habitat.
22
I'm not arguing against having a well integrated shopping mall (i.e. something that is not Westlake Plaza) in downtown Seattle. It's best not to follow downtown Tacoma's near fatal mistake.
There are pros and cons to having that Well Integrated Shopping Mall, however. Many older businesses have to be plowed over. Who programs the shops that make up the mall for the downtown crowd.
Does downtown Seattle really need something whose model is primarily for people who don't live in a downtown, period?
There are pros and cons to having that Well Integrated Shopping Mall, however. Many older businesses have to be plowed over. Who programs the shops that make up the mall for the downtown crowd.
Does downtown Seattle really need something whose model is primarily for people who don't live in a downtown, period?
23
The bus to Northgate takes only 15 minutes, sure -- but it takes another 15 minutes or more to walk to Target, which is not in the mall but north of it. And that walk is almost entirely past vast parking lots, freeway ramps, and oceanically wide arterials. Add another five minutes or more for standing alone at some of the world's longest traffic lights. The only other people you will encounter on the sidewalks there, should there be any, will be recently-released ex-convicts or mentally-ill homeless people. They probably won't rob you.
25
@23: I've made a few trips to Target and Best Buy each recently, and I just zoned for a bit on the 16 bus, and the bus would usually be back there by the time I was done (as they run no longer than 20 minutes on the weekends)... ...so no scary people for me. Unless this is recent as of weeks ago.
26
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BuyBlue.org
I heard Target was a "red" store, But...
My mom wants a Target card for her b-day, she actually stopped going to Wal-Mart for cheap stuff. Today I took the 10:15am to Northgate, got a transfer slip that expired at 12:30pm, got the Target stuff, couldn't find the Pho restaurant on 5th, so I caught the 11:56 back to downtown. I walked through the mall to get to Target but you could catch the 5th ave stop by Key Bank and you don't have to stand in the long line that's usually waiting there for it at the transit center. I have a Target Visa so I don't have to go to Northgate as often anymore, I'm just happy the Regal theater is going up there now.(across the street) What's a mall without movies? :)
I heard Target was a "red" store, But...
My mom wants a Target card for her b-day, she actually stopped going to Wal-Mart for cheap stuff. Today I took the 10:15am to Northgate, got a transfer slip that expired at 12:30pm, got the Target stuff, couldn't find the Pho restaurant on 5th, so I caught the 11:56 back to downtown. I walked through the mall to get to Target but you could catch the 5th ave stop by Key Bank and you don't have to stand in the long line that's usually waiting there for it at the transit center. I have a Target Visa so I don't have to go to Northgate as often anymore, I'm just happy the Regal theater is going up there now.(across the street) What's a mall without movies? :)
27
In unrelated news permits in King County were just announced today to have an extra two years to build from the original permit dates.
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