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News & ArtsThursday, May 7, 2009
Sex The Wrong Messenger
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:30 AM
Last night on CNN I said that Bristol Palin was the wrong messenger, that she was a joke, and that teenagers weren't going to be receptive to an abstinence message delivered by Palin. Looks like the kids—at least the ones ABC News rounded up—agree with me.
NYC Teens Chide Palin's Abstinence Call: Students Say Bristol Palin is 'Hypocrite,' a 'Celebrity' and 'Hasn't Been in Our Shoes'New York City students who heard Bristol Palin's warnings against teen pregnancy say they might consider abstinence, but they wouldn't take advice on it from the young unwed mother.... "It's a big flop," said Jerry Kowal, a senior at Solomon Schecter High School in Hartsdale, N.Y., referring to Palin's campaign to get teens to abstain from sex.
"I don't think it's her real opinion," the 17-year-old told ABCNews.com. "She's just trying to help her mother. She said it herself that abstinence education doesn't work. I looked it up."
Maybe the people that teenagers need to hear from are adult men and women—but young enough that they can relate—who were sexually active as teenagers and didn't get knocked up or knock anyone up because they used birth control and condoms conscientiously and successfully. Let them hear from young adults who can talk about the satisfying sex lives they enjoyed as teenagers and the satisfying lives they lead now as young adults—off to college, got a good job, not living at home with mom—because they used condoms and birth control. Maybe these teenagers would respond to positive sexual role models, not negative ones, to young adults who aren't hypocrites and celebrities.
3
Cautionary tales about teen pregnancy from women who are NOT governors' daughters might not be so obviously inauthentic, but as young Bristol already said abstinence is unrealistic, her argument is false on every level. She has done her sociopath mother proud.
4
I agree with your out look on teaching teens about sex. I was even talking to my Mom about this and told her what you said: she agress 100%. Obviously I admit it would be hard as a parent to tell your child about some of this stuff, but you have to if your a parent. The problem is that many parents would have a heart attack if they thought there kids were having sex, they still see them as that baby. I think a lot of times thats also why parents have a hard time when there kids tell them they are gay at a younger age, they arn't the innocent person they were believed to be. I think your ad campaign way is a great idea, but like I said consrvative parents would freak at the idea of admiting kids have sex. My Mom told me then my grandmother told her only, "wait until marriage" and nothing else, but my Mom also ended up almost getting raped and being with a guy she didn't care about and didn't use protection. Luckily she found my Dad and they have been married for 20 years. But to this day my grandmother belives you don't tell a kid anything about sex, but there is another problem, telling kids to wait until marriage, also obviously in most of the US leaves gay youth out of the eqution. Way to go Dan, great idea.
5
What about young adults who enjoyed (relatively) safe sex through their teen years and STILL got pregnant even though the dude was totally wearing a condom AND was too drunk to finish? Obviously, that's a statistical anomaly and everything, but still.
...Not that that happened to me or anything.
...Not that that happened to me or anything.
6
you all are so stupid sounding
the most convincing story against drinking is from the alkie
the point is the conversation NOT the speaker - kids are bright - not stupid sheep, and we are talking biology which affects each of them - and a topic at the top of their attention span
Palin spouts nonsense, daughter makes better sense, do you all really feel it is unclear where the truth is?
Dan had the floor and did not educate, just spouted stuff about masterbating, his fixation, he was in his own space, not the space to cover good messages
Get the conversation started, truth will win with the right information on the table
Logical and younger MOMS might be perfect - women - who can talk straight to the issue, who remember their youth - and - as we all know, most adults LIE about their own youth years a lot
And gay guys - you have never had to worry about periods or pregnant - so let women talk a bit
the most convincing story against drinking is from the alkie
the point is the conversation NOT the speaker - kids are bright - not stupid sheep, and we are talking biology which affects each of them - and a topic at the top of their attention span
Palin spouts nonsense, daughter makes better sense, do you all really feel it is unclear where the truth is?
Dan had the floor and did not educate, just spouted stuff about masterbating, his fixation, he was in his own space, not the space to cover good messages
Get the conversation started, truth will win with the right information on the table
Logical and younger MOMS might be perfect - women - who can talk straight to the issue, who remember their youth - and - as we all know, most adults LIE about their own youth years a lot
And gay guys - you have never had to worry about periods or pregnant - so let women talk a bit
7
@5 is the rule, you will find.
Having the adventuresome great sex Dan promises without getting pregnant or STDs will be a neat trick and one that 90% of teenagers will not manage.
While looking for these 'role models' also make sure they did not contract any STDs from their conscientious and successful non-vaginal sex.
The odds of teenagers doing it Dan's way successfully are less than the odds of a kid who has the proper support successfully making abstinence work. And proper support is not an hour pep rally at school, it is a lifetime of having been taught that sex is best enjoyed within a lifelong relationship.
Dan's role models sound very similar to the way abstinence is taught; of course anal sex and masterbation will be a much easier sell than self-control.
Dan's pollyanna view is cruelly unfair to the kids who will end up like @5 and worse.
Having the adventuresome great sex Dan promises without getting pregnant or STDs will be a neat trick and one that 90% of teenagers will not manage.
While looking for these 'role models' also make sure they did not contract any STDs from their conscientious and successful non-vaginal sex.
The odds of teenagers doing it Dan's way successfully are less than the odds of a kid who has the proper support successfully making abstinence work. And proper support is not an hour pep rally at school, it is a lifetime of having been taught that sex is best enjoyed within a lifelong relationship.
Dan's role models sound very similar to the way abstinence is taught; of course anal sex and masterbation will be a much easier sell than self-control.
Dan's pollyanna view is cruelly unfair to the kids who will end up like @5 and worse.
10
I tried to get her to allow anal sex but she said, "no dice." I would love to hear her answer now...
11
@6: That's pretty weak. An alcoholic can probably scare you silly about the consequences of drinking, and a teen mom can likewise scare people about the consequences of unsafe/any sex. That doesn't make either the ideal person for giving advice about enjoying oneself responsibly and avoiding disastrous outcomes. For that, one would be better off listening to those who drink responsibly and fuck without getting fucked over.
Using teen moms and lushes as spokespersons for family planning and sobriety just reinforces the latent and very destructive Calvinism that infects this country. It tries to scare people shitless about the consequences instead of educating them about how to avoid things. This leaves people less capable of evaluating risk and less able to take calculated risks when (not if) they do engage in behaviors that carry risk.
And, right, gay guys don't have to worry about the consequences of irresponsible sex. At all.
You're an idiot.
Using teen moms and lushes as spokespersons for family planning and sobriety just reinforces the latent and very destructive Calvinism that infects this country. It tries to scare people shitless about the consequences instead of educating them about how to avoid things. This leaves people less capable of evaluating risk and less able to take calculated risks when (not if) they do engage in behaviors that carry risk.
And, right, gay guys don't have to worry about the consequences of irresponsible sex. At all.
You're an idiot.
12
Dan is the PiedPiper of free teenage Sex and -miracle of miracles- teenagers buy it!!
I was impressed that Levi Johnston agreed with Dan but am REALLY impressed that NYC teenagers ALSO agree.
Because I always look to unwed teen fathers for insightful advice on safe responsible sex!!!
I was impressed that Levi Johnston agreed with Dan but am REALLY impressed that NYC teenagers ALSO agree.
Because I always look to unwed teen fathers for insightful advice on safe responsible sex!!!
13
@9) HPV hits the 80% mark by the time women hit 30. (Stats on men are vague since most men never show a symptom.)
It's super-common, and the reason we should really get data out there about the vaccine. :(
But even then, it's kind of no big deal (likely because most people have it and have already gotten over it and show no symptoms).
But pregnancy? Yeah, the rate's not that high.
And points to the registered commenting. Only the assholes are unregistered.
It's super-common, and the reason we should really get data out there about the vaccine. :(
But even then, it's kind of no big deal (likely because most people have it and have already gotten over it and show no symptoms).
But pregnancy? Yeah, the rate's not that high.
And points to the registered commenting. Only the assholes are unregistered.
14
You know what? I'm just happy there was someone out there, ANYWHERE, portrayed in the media as hearing something, and then looking up the background on the situation before they made a decision about it. God bless that kid.
15
9
Half of sexually active teens will get an STD. The subset of sexually active teens that is using anal sex as a birth control method have a higher rate of STD.
Half of sexually active teens will get an STD. The subset of sexually active teens that is using anal sex as a birth control method have a higher rate of STD.
16
@14: Me too. I was deeply impressed. Most kids don't bother looking up stuff for a fucking research paper.
18
What was your anal sex comment about on Larry King last night. I was confused. That kids should be clear anal sex won't get you pregnant and is an alternative? Or that we should teach about condoms so that they won't spread STDs with anal sex in order to stay technically abstinent.
And yes, you were kinda dicky to that woman on the show.
And yes, you were kinda dicky to that woman on the show.
19
My first reaction to the person Dan says should be the role model - people who had sex as teenagers and didn't get pregnant or an STD and are now successful adults - shouldn't be that hard to find. Maybe I am naive, but isn't the majority of people (myself included)?
21
@19 - Probably. But we probably should inform the kids about the lucky few of us who beat the odds and had shit happen to them DESPITE taking all the proper precautions. You know, just so they understand that fucking around is always going to carry with it some kind of risk.
24
How 'bout posting some links to support your statements, anonymous troll? Oh wait, that's right...
26
Abstinence may be the surest way to prevent pregnancy on a personal level, but relying on abstinence as our sole tenet of sex education is the surest way to promote it. The only messengers kids get are 1) people who successfully waited until marriage before having unprotected, to-make-children sex, and 2) people who had unprotected sex as teens and winded up with a kid and an STI. They're taught that their only two options are no sex or unsafe sex; even with that choice, people can only choose "no sex" for so long.
What they need to know is that there is a third choice, which exists whether sex-phobes are willing to admit it or not: safe sex. And non-intercourse sex. It's absolutely stupid to think that all we need to do is teach teenagers that "sex is naughty," and then they won't do it. They need to know how to have sex safely before deciding which of their three options they want to choose, because nobody chooses abstinence forever.
What they need to know is that there is a third choice, which exists whether sex-phobes are willing to admit it or not: safe sex. And non-intercourse sex. It's absolutely stupid to think that all we need to do is teach teenagers that "sex is naughty," and then they won't do it. They need to know how to have sex safely before deciding which of their three options they want to choose, because nobody chooses abstinence forever.
28
so ...... first of all .... have gay men tell how panic sets in when they skip a period .... then ..... explain all the advantage of anal sex when a vagina is present, possible and hot as fire ... then .... talk about .... how smart they are about pregnancy, having all the first hand experience.
sorry guys, you have a lot of theory and no wisdom. butt out. your expertise is all second hand and rumor.
sorry guys, you have a lot of theory and no wisdom. butt out. your expertise is all second hand and rumor.
29
@28 how about the panic that sets in when your baby brother tells you that he just tested positive? I am male and, gosh, that was kind of intense.
If my little brother hadn't been given "abstinence only" sex ed, he might still be alive, you twit. Gay men and gay teens have a bigger threat than pregnancy looming over them. (duh) so S T F U. Having a vagina does not give you wisdom any more than having a cock does.
If my little brother hadn't been given "abstinence only" sex ed, he might still be alive, you twit. Gay men and gay teens have a bigger threat than pregnancy looming over them. (duh) so S T F U. Having a vagina does not give you wisdom any more than having a cock does.
30
From the NY Times:
" If you have ever watched Levi Johnston on TV for two minutes you will appreciate how terrifying it is when he has the most reasonable analysis of a social issue."
" If you have ever watched Levi Johnston on TV for two minutes you will appreciate how terrifying it is when he has the most reasonable analysis of a social issue."
31
Bristol Palin would be a much better role model and spokesperson if she had done the right thing and had given the kid up for adoption.
32
@28 Ellipses are annoying and don't help your already muddled point. And through the bullshit grammar, I am reading that you believe that young women who have gotten pregnant should teach teens about sex in lieu of gay sex advice columnists. But nowhere in this post did the gay sex advice columnist say that he should be the one doing outreach/education. This is what I read in the post
"Maybe the people that teenagers need to hear from are adult men and women—but young enough that they can relate—who were sexually active as teenagers and didn't get knocked up or knock anyone up because they used birth control and condoms conscientiously and successfully."
Seems to me this statement includes women and men, and stops short of specifying an orientation. This leaves the door open for all manner of folks that teens can relate to, not just the apparently sage commentary that would come from a drunken welfare mom.
Also, you're spouting about wisdom and advocating for Bristol Palin, are you thereby implying she's wise? Getting pregnant and living in Alaska doesn't automatically promote some dumb bitch to the council of the elders. She's still stupid, a hypocrite and her mother is still advocating that keeping kids ignorant is the best way to keep them safe. How do these traits somehow lend her authority or make her an ideal advocate?
"Maybe the people that teenagers need to hear from are adult men and women—but young enough that they can relate—who were sexually active as teenagers and didn't get knocked up or knock anyone up because they used birth control and condoms conscientiously and successfully."
Seems to me this statement includes women and men, and stops short of specifying an orientation. This leaves the door open for all manner of folks that teens can relate to, not just the apparently sage commentary that would come from a drunken welfare mom.
Also, you're spouting about wisdom and advocating for Bristol Palin, are you thereby implying she's wise? Getting pregnant and living in Alaska doesn't automatically promote some dumb bitch to the council of the elders. She's still stupid, a hypocrite and her mother is still advocating that keeping kids ignorant is the best way to keep them safe. How do these traits somehow lend her authority or make her an ideal advocate?
33
@28: The question is how to lead a healthy sex life while protecting yourself and correctly gauging risks. Having been pregnant or having had a yeast infection has really, really little to do with being able to tell an overly-eager horny teenager how to act on their desires without ruining their lives.
Also, I am male, and believe there is a shameful double standard when it comes to who has to live with the consequences of unintended pregnancies. I see your message of "men butt out" as being somewhat complicit with the idea that birth control is the woman's responsibility and burden. The idea that the spokespeople for safe sex should be men in their 20s talking to teen boys, and women in the 20s talking to teen girls strikes me as perpetuating the attitude that casual sex is an adverserial enterprise for all involved. Sometimes it is, but is that what we want?
Also, I am male, and believe there is a shameful double standard when it comes to who has to live with the consequences of unintended pregnancies. I see your message of "men butt out" as being somewhat complicit with the idea that birth control is the woman's responsibility and burden. The idea that the spokespeople for safe sex should be men in their 20s talking to teen boys, and women in the 20s talking to teen girls strikes me as perpetuating the attitude that casual sex is an adverserial enterprise for all involved. Sometimes it is, but is that what we want?
34
@29
Eddy,
If your little brother hadn't engaged in perverted anal sex, he might still be alive, you twit. If gay men and gay teens have a bigger threat looming over them it is because they choose to engage in unhealthy disgusting behavior. If it helps you get a clue your brother's death might not be totally in vain.
Eddy,
If your little brother hadn't engaged in perverted anal sex, he might still be alive, you twit. If gay men and gay teens have a bigger threat looming over them it is because they choose to engage in unhealthy disgusting behavior. If it helps you get a clue your brother's death might not be totally in vain.
38
Anal intercourse is inherently unsafe.
A thin layer of latex does not make it safe.
It wasn't Reagan's fault that homosexuals died from AIDS.
It was criminally irresponsibly promiscuous anal sex that allowed the virus to gain a foothold and spread in humans.
Powerful PC forces may cow people into not sharing the truth with Eddy but they can't change the cold hard facts of epidemiologic SCIENCE.
Eddy's brother is dead.
Millions of teenagers who may buy into Dan's Anal Sex Path to Freedom BullShit are not.
Yet.
You can pat Eddy's hand and nod in agreement and not rock the PC boat and sentence those teenagers to the same fate as his brother.
Or not.
A thin layer of latex does not make it safe.
It wasn't Reagan's fault that homosexuals died from AIDS.
It was criminally irresponsibly promiscuous anal sex that allowed the virus to gain a foothold and spread in humans.
Powerful PC forces may cow people into not sharing the truth with Eddy but they can't change the cold hard facts of epidemiologic SCIENCE.
Eddy's brother is dead.
Millions of teenagers who may buy into Dan's Anal Sex Path to Freedom BullShit are not.
Yet.
You can pat Eddy's hand and nod in agreement and not rock the PC boat and sentence those teenagers to the same fate as his brother.
Or not.
39
Seriously, when I was in college (in Arizona) they did a survey of female students and 85% were infected with gonorrhea, chlamydia, or syphilis (or multiple STDs) by there senior year. (1 in 500 college students were infected with HIV.) If they received sex ed at all (most don't) it is purely abstinence only. This is not unusual in the South/Southwest. It has become such a problem that at freshman orientation some schools are making the students attend a safer-sex seminar.
40
Wow. Teenagers aren't mindless consumers of empty platitudes. Who'd have thunk it? Obviously not abstinence only crowd.
41
38 AIDS isn't a gay disease. It started in Africa amongst heterosexuals. Yes, most of those diagnosed in the US are men, but the number of infected heterosexual women are climbing. World wide heterosexual make up 2/3 of the HIV infected population.
More than 25 million people have died of AIDS since 1981.
Africa has 11.6 million AIDS orphans.
At the end of 2007, women accounted for 50% of all adults living with HIV worldwide, and for 59% in sub-Saharan Africa.
Young people (under 25 years old) account for half of all new HIV infections worldwide.
http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm
Since the beginning of the epidemic, the number of heterosexual infections has increased dramatically. According to CDC estimates, heterosexual contact led to about one third of new AIDS diagnoses and one third of new HIV diagnoses in 2006.
Around one fifth of all adults and adolescents diagnosed with AIDS have been female, although among new AIDS diagnoses in 2007, this proportion was 27%. Of the 34 states with a history of confidential name-based reporting, 31% of HIV diagnoses in 2007 were attributed to women.
http://www.avert.org/usa-transmission-ge…
More than 25 million people have died of AIDS since 1981.
Africa has 11.6 million AIDS orphans.
At the end of 2007, women accounted for 50% of all adults living with HIV worldwide, and for 59% in sub-Saharan Africa.
Young people (under 25 years old) account for half of all new HIV infections worldwide.
http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm
Since the beginning of the epidemic, the number of heterosexual infections has increased dramatically. According to CDC estimates, heterosexual contact led to about one third of new AIDS diagnoses and one third of new HIV diagnoses in 2006.
Around one fifth of all adults and adolescents diagnosed with AIDS have been female, although among new AIDS diagnoses in 2007, this proportion was 27%. Of the 34 states with a history of confidential name-based reporting, 31% of HIV diagnoses in 2007 were attributed to women.
http://www.avert.org/usa-transmission-ge…
42
41
Exactly my point, dear.
AIDS is a gift from the self-centered self-indulgent white yuppie Homosexual 'Civil Rights" Movement to the rest of America.
For a decade it was an isolated 'Gay Plague'.
It would have been easy at that stage to isolate and contain until treatment and cure were developed.
But instead of treating AIDS as a medical issue it was perverted into a Gay Civil Rights issue.
The right of 'Privacy' to allow infected homosexuals to infect their unsuspecting partners (of both sexes and orientations)was more important that identifying carriers and protecting society from spread of the disease.
Now Dan wants to wrap a bow on the gift and give it to a new generation of teenagers.
Exactly my point, dear.
AIDS is a gift from the self-centered self-indulgent white yuppie Homosexual 'Civil Rights" Movement to the rest of America.
For a decade it was an isolated 'Gay Plague'.
It would have been easy at that stage to isolate and contain until treatment and cure were developed.
But instead of treating AIDS as a medical issue it was perverted into a Gay Civil Rights issue.
The right of 'Privacy' to allow infected homosexuals to infect their unsuspecting partners (of both sexes and orientations)was more important that identifying carriers and protecting society from spread of the disease.
Now Dan wants to wrap a bow on the gift and give it to a new generation of teenagers.
43
It would be interesting to have Golob compare the way AIDS was treated and the rate at which it actually grew in the population vs. the rate it would have spread had it been treated like a medical condition and not a Civil Rights one.
AIDS is actually fairly difficult to spread, requiring very intimate contact as opposed to being airborne, or spread by contact, or even saliva. Thus the slightest effort to identify carriers and prevent infectious contact would have been simple and very effective.
The way society, and especially the medical community, was allowed to respond to AIDS vs TB or even swine flu is interesting.
America, and especially the Gay Community, would be very different places today had AIDS been more rationally dealt with.
AIDS is actually fairly difficult to spread, requiring very intimate contact as opposed to being airborne, or spread by contact, or even saliva. Thus the slightest effort to identify carriers and prevent infectious contact would have been simple and very effective.
The way society, and especially the medical community, was allowed to respond to AIDS vs TB or even swine flu is interesting.
America, and especially the Gay Community, would be very different places today had AIDS been more rationally dealt with.
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