Thursday, May 7, 2009
News The Morning News
Posted by Jonah Spangenthal-Lee on Thu, May 7, 2009 at 7:28 AM
Chasing Trim: Obama wants to cut $17 billion from budget.
Viva Mexico & Vigilante Vaccinations: Mexico gets back to business after swine flu shutdown. NY Times asks whether "swine flu parties" are a bad idea.
Business as Usual: FBI bungling terrorist watch list.
Saving Newspapers: Will it be the Kindle or Congress?
Crazy Like a Fox: Rupert Murdoch wants to start charging for News Corp content.
$10,000: Is the dubiously high estimate for what you could save each year by ditching your car.
Sticky Situation: Two charged for honey conspiracy.
Rated Arrrrrrr: Watch video of a pirates attacking a US merchant ship here.
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1
10,000 a year? So every year I spend five time the price of my car just by using my car? I love when assholes pull numbers out of thin air to benefit some horseshit political agenda.
2
The government forces people buying new condos, or renting in new-construction apartments, to also buy/rent parking spaces. This adds $20-40,000 to the capital cost of the unit. The quickest way to make housing affordable is to stop forcing such consumers to buy parking spaces. (Note to car worshippers: plenty of developers will still build parking spaces; your choices will still be available.) This $40,000 ciost does not appear to be included in the $10K a year figure for car costs. Also not included are the land costs for all the parking spaces at malls, etc. If you're in the LID that will pay for overruns on the two mile bored tunnel ... say the overrun is $2 billion and the LID population is 100,000 -- add in $20,000 per person or over time, a few thousand more a year. Oh wait, you pay for it if you live in the LID but don't even have a car. This certainly reduces the cost of car ownership, shifting it onto the purely-transit crowd.
Man those car loving politicians like Nickels are wily in how they can provide relief from costs of car ownership, shifting highway costs to folks who don't even consume gasoline!
Man those car loving politicians like Nickels are wily in how they can provide relief from costs of car ownership, shifting highway costs to folks who don't even consume gasoline!
3
@1 show your math. Realize "average" doesn't mean you alone, and most people have a car that's worth more than $2000.
4
Saving $10,000 a year with transit? LMFAO
Right.
Seattle is an inaccessible city unless you live within three blocks of a bus stop and are going downtown. With lots of extra time available to waste.
And let's not forget many of your fellow passengers toting mental illness, reaking of alcohol and smoke, babbling to themselves and intimidating other passengers. Happens weekly somewhere. Just not reported.
Sorry folks. My time is too valuable to waste standing in line for a Metro bus that may or may not come, and even if it arrives, might drive by me as it is too full of leeches in the free ride zone. I can play my own music, talk freely on my phone, and only smell my own odor for the convenient price of $1000? Sorry my health, safety and mental happiness are far more valuable.
Ohh one last thing. I'm not sure where this "panacea" route they used to come up with the figure exists. But I whipped out a calculator and figured it would cost me a net negative loss of -$1350/year. So I don't have any CLUE where they get their fuzzy math from, but they are obviously full of shit.
Right.
Seattle is an inaccessible city unless you live within three blocks of a bus stop and are going downtown. With lots of extra time available to waste.
And let's not forget many of your fellow passengers toting mental illness, reaking of alcohol and smoke, babbling to themselves and intimidating other passengers. Happens weekly somewhere. Just not reported.
Sorry folks. My time is too valuable to waste standing in line for a Metro bus that may or may not come, and even if it arrives, might drive by me as it is too full of leeches in the free ride zone. I can play my own music, talk freely on my phone, and only smell my own odor for the convenient price of $1000? Sorry my health, safety and mental happiness are far more valuable.
Ohh one last thing. I'm not sure where this "panacea" route they used to come up with the figure exists. But I whipped out a calculator and figured it would cost me a net negative loss of -$1350/year. So I don't have any CLUE where they get their fuzzy math from, but they are obviously full of shit.
5
While the $10,000 obviously includes Lexus owners in it's math, they do have a point. I doubt I could live in Seattle if I hadn't ditched the car when I got here. Not having that brick chained around my neck has made all the difference. I guess it helps that I'm not too lazy to ride a bike every day.
6
Even if that number is true it's well worth it. Give me better transit and while I will still keep my car I will drive it much less. But that means transit needs to not take twice as long and involve spending time on a roving homeless shelter.
7
@3 never said it was about me retard, just said the 10,000 is a completely bullshit stat.
Parking, 6 dollars a day roughly 1350 a year.
Gas , roughly 1250 year.
I'll be generous and give you a thousand a year for maintenance.
Tabs insurance blah blah blah 500.
Do the math.
Parking, 6 dollars a day roughly 1350 a year.
Gas , roughly 1250 year.
I'll be generous and give you a thousand a year for maintenance.
Tabs insurance blah blah blah 500.
Do the math.
8
I know where we can cut a bunch of money out of the federal budget. Remember the airborne laser program?
9
As for deliberately infecting yourself with the current (mild) form of swine flu to try and protect against a later, deadlier outbreak - it's an interesting idea. Is it interesting enough to gamble your life by trying it? Don't think so. Plus, the chances are good that you'd end up starting a massive outbreak in your area.
10
@7
Why don't you actually do the math instead of just quickly sum up why you think this is wrong. Oh wait they already did the math and came up with over $10,000. Buzz off troll.
Why don't you actually do the math instead of just quickly sum up why you think this is wrong. Oh wait they already did the math and came up with over $10,000. Buzz off troll.
11
@7 and even that's off. Most people don't work downtown or where they have to pay to park and hell owning a car doesn't mean having to drive it work. If I had to pay a lot for parking I would probably look into carpooling or transit to get to work depending on the relative hassle of both.
I bought a very reliable car that gets 20 miles to the gallon. My round trip of 10 miles costs me about 1.10 in gas and 1/400 an oil change or maybe 10 cents. Throw in another dollar for wear and tear on the brakes and tires and your at about what a bus pass would cost.
I am not counting insurance or depreciation because even if I took transit I would keep my car. I enjoy visiting my family in the South end and am sure as fuck not taking the bus for 2 hours to get there. I like road trips and going to costco and sometimes I stay out pass when the bus stops running.
I bought a very reliable car that gets 20 miles to the gallon. My round trip of 10 miles costs me about 1.10 in gas and 1/400 an oil change or maybe 10 cents. Throw in another dollar for wear and tear on the brakes and tires and your at about what a bus pass would cost.
I am not counting insurance or depreciation because even if I took transit I would keep my car. I enjoy visiting my family in the South end and am sure as fuck not taking the bus for 2 hours to get there. I like road trips and going to costco and sometimes I stay out pass when the bus stops running.
12
@10 I'll do some math
Car that costs 25,000 and will last 8 years
12,000 miles a year at 25 a gallon
3 oil changes per year at 40 a pop
1 set of new tires at 400
1 set of new brakes at 600
1000 a year for repairs (way high since we likely have a warranty and a reliable car should go many years not needing anything)
Insurance at 1200 a year
I get 53200 in cost over 8 years. That's about 6650 a year and we are assuming the car is completely worthless at that point. We are also budgeting too much for repairs and could use a more fuel efficient car. A bus pass for a year is 600 so our savings is at best 6000 assuming you don't have to ever rent a car to go to something.
I am pretty confused how they got to 10,000.
Car that costs 25,000 and will last 8 years
12,000 miles a year at 25 a gallon
3 oil changes per year at 40 a pop
1 set of new tires at 400
1 set of new brakes at 600
1000 a year for repairs (way high since we likely have a warranty and a reliable car should go many years not needing anything)
Insurance at 1200 a year
I get 53200 in cost over 8 years. That's about 6650 a year and we are assuming the car is completely worthless at that point. We are also budgeting too much for repairs and could use a more fuel efficient car. A bus pass for a year is 600 so our savings is at best 6000 assuming you don't have to ever rent a car to go to something.
I am pretty confused how they got to 10,000.
13
@10 are you some kind of head trauma victim? I really can't make head or tails of your gibberish.
@11 Agreed. I'm just surprised at how many people just accept this kind of shit as fact. Why is it inconceivable that the American Public Transportation Association would inflate its numbers?
@11 Agreed. I'm just surprised at how many people just accept this kind of shit as fact. Why is it inconceivable that the American Public Transportation Association would inflate its numbers?
14
12, some quibbles about your numbers:
Your car costs don't include interest. Most people buy cars with loans and interest payments are part of their costs.
Most people don't keep a car eight years. I keep mine more than that, but the average seems to be 4-6 years for most people.
The average MPG of American cars is less than 25.
You didn't include parking costs.
I'm still dubious about the $10K figure, but your analysis is at least as doubtful.
Your car costs don't include interest. Most people buy cars with loans and interest payments are part of their costs.
Most people don't keep a car eight years. I keep mine more than that, but the average seems to be 4-6 years for most people.
The average MPG of American cars is less than 25.
You didn't include parking costs.
I'm still dubious about the $10K figure, but your analysis is at least as doubtful.
15
Reality Check:
Seattle is an inaccessible city unless you live within three blocks of a bus stop and are going downtown. With lots of extra time available to waste.
Tell yourself whatever you need to in order to justify your choices, but you're just wrong on this. I'm 36, I've lived in Seattle most of my life, and I've never owned a car. I get around just fine on the bus -- I just have things that I do on the bus, like reading or checking my email or whatever.
And the $10k figure is probably high, but it's not totally unreasonable. With financing, fuel, upkeep, tabs, and so on, the cost can easily run into the thousands. Another issue that can figure into the average would be, for example, medical costs -- medical costs from car accidents run into the billions of dollars a year, nationally. Average that out among all drivers, it can be a chunk of change.
Yes, I'm sure you're very special and important.
Seattle is an inaccessible city unless you live within three blocks of a bus stop and are going downtown. With lots of extra time available to waste.
Tell yourself whatever you need to in order to justify your choices, but you're just wrong on this. I'm 36, I've lived in Seattle most of my life, and I've never owned a car. I get around just fine on the bus -- I just have things that I do on the bus, like reading or checking my email or whatever.
And the $10k figure is probably high, but it's not totally unreasonable. With financing, fuel, upkeep, tabs, and so on, the cost can easily run into the thousands. Another issue that can figure into the average would be, for example, medical costs -- medical costs from car accidents run into the billions of dollars a year, nationally. Average that out among all drivers, it can be a chunk of change.
Sorry my health, safety and mental happiness are far more valuable.
Yes, I'm sure you're very special and important.
17
Anyone who has kids and must shop for groceries for more than one person cannot live without a car.
My first car was a Corolla, we had it in the family for 16 years, it never cost more than $1000 a year in repairs and that twas only in the last few years of it's life. I bought a Mazda5 two years ago. I paid 21,900 cash CDN. Insurance is ~ $750 CDN a year. I don't pay for parking anywhere.
I'm sure it's possible to blow 10k a year on a car but anyone with a little common sense can get by with much less.
My first car was a Corolla, we had it in the family for 16 years, it never cost more than $1000 a year in repairs and that twas only in the last few years of it's life. I bought a Mazda5 two years ago. I paid 21,900 cash CDN. Insurance is ~ $750 CDN a year. I don't pay for parking anywhere.
I'm sure it's possible to blow 10k a year on a car but anyone with a little common sense can get by with much less.
19
@14, OK, but I also left out any residual value. A car is not worthless after 8 years.
At 5% interest on that car would be a total of about 3300 on a 5 year loan. That's substantially less than the residual value.
If we do six years with a five year loan at 5% and a residual value of 10,000 we actually reduce the annual cost to about 5400.
Even at half that fuel efficiency you only add about another thousand a year.
And most people don't have to pay to park.
@15, but we are talking about what an individual can save, not the total cost of owning a car to society. If I give up my car its not like I no longer pay for roads and health care.
At 5% interest on that car would be a total of about 3300 on a 5 year loan. That's substantially less than the residual value.
If we do six years with a five year loan at 5% and a residual value of 10,000 we actually reduce the annual cost to about 5400.
Even at half that fuel efficiency you only add about another thousand a year.
And most people don't have to pay to park.
@15, but we are talking about what an individual can save, not the total cost of owning a car to society. If I give up my car its not like I no longer pay for roads and health care.
20
And again, no. I have a kid, my wife and I shop for our family of three and we do so without using a car. So... you're wrong. Sorry.
The medical cost of injuries resulting from cars is levied against individuals who lose the car accident lottery -- so if there are 1 million injury accidents every year, each of those million people has a certain medical cost associated with their injury. If you figure those costs into the average price of car ownership, the average could go up significantly. That average reflects a kind of "accident lottery". The cost goes to people who lose the lottery. But, as Tyler Durden once said, on a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero. Sooner or later, pretty much everyone will lose the accident lottery. Those costs can be reasonably figured into "the cost of owning a car".
Anyone who has kids and must shop for groceries for more than one person cannot live without a car.
And again, no. I have a kid, my wife and I shop for our family of three and we do so without using a car. So... you're wrong. Sorry.
@15, but we are talking about what an individual can save, not the total cost of owning a car to society. If I give up my car its not like I no longer pay for roads and health care.
The medical cost of injuries resulting from cars is levied against individuals who lose the car accident lottery -- so if there are 1 million injury accidents every year, each of those million people has a certain medical cost associated with their injury. If you figure those costs into the average price of car ownership, the average could go up significantly. That average reflects a kind of "accident lottery". The cost goes to people who lose the lottery. But, as Tyler Durden once said, on a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero. Sooner or later, pretty much everyone will lose the accident lottery. Those costs can be reasonably figured into "the cost of owning a car".
21
I enjoy riding the bus, and bike whenever it's not wet out, but this calculator itself showed that it doesn't make sense.
Yearly Cost of commuting by Automobile: $372.48.
Yearly Cost of commuting by Public Transit: $600.00.
Total Savings: $-227.52.
But I drive barely ever, and for whatever reason, they didn't ask me for the insurance. Insurance on a car is what's such a waste - 1,200 a year just to have it sit in a garage.
Yearly Cost of commuting by Automobile: $372.48.
Yearly Cost of commuting by Public Transit: $600.00.
Total Savings: $-227.52.
But I drive barely ever, and for whatever reason, they didn't ask me for the insurance. Insurance on a car is what's such a waste - 1,200 a year just to have it sit in a garage.
22
@20 Nope. I have health and car insurance that covers injury. Plus I drive safe meaning that if I get into an accident its most likely the other persons fault and their insurance will pay or my uninsured motorist coverage will kick in. Its not a lottery as one can take measures to reduce their risk of having it strike. Its not a purely random thing.
But hey, lets say your right. There are nearly 200 million drivers in the US so my odds are 1/200 of getting in an injury accident. Lets just pretend I'll always be responsible so we multiply my deductible of 3000 by that and we get $165. So fine, add 165 dollars to my numbers.
But hey, lets say your right. There are nearly 200 million drivers in the US so my odds are 1/200 of getting in an injury accident. Lets just pretend I'll always be responsible so we multiply my deductible of 3000 by that and we get $165. So fine, add 165 dollars to my numbers.
24
@22 Washington State insurance requirements:
Bodily Injury Liability: $25,000/$50,000 Limit
Property Damage Liability: $10,000 Limit
So can you imagine a circumstance where two people with the mandatory minimum insurance would get in an accident where the medical costs would exceed their insurance liability? Happens all the time. Or where the property damage liability exceeds $10k?
Or here's one -- uninsured driver hits someone who doesn't have uninsured driver provision (because it's not required in Washington State) and the uninsured driver has no assets. In law, we call those people judgment-proof. There's no point in suing them because the most you're going to get out of them is that they declare bankruptcy and dodge.
But your conviction that insurance covers all contingencies is sort of cute and endearing. Don't let me talk you out of it.
Bodily Injury Liability: $25,000/$50,000 Limit
Property Damage Liability: $10,000 Limit
So can you imagine a circumstance where two people with the mandatory minimum insurance would get in an accident where the medical costs would exceed their insurance liability? Happens all the time. Or where the property damage liability exceeds $10k?
Or here's one -- uninsured driver hits someone who doesn't have uninsured driver provision (because it's not required in Washington State) and the uninsured driver has no assets. In law, we call those people judgment-proof. There's no point in suing them because the most you're going to get out of them is that they declare bankruptcy and dodge.
But your conviction that insurance covers all contingencies is sort of cute and endearing. Don't let me talk you out of it.
25
You've obviously never had to deal with an insurance company. If the accident causes serious injury to you and you can't work, you're going to have serious problems, especially if you can't afford an amazing attorney.
Plus I drive safe meaning that if I get into an accident its most likely the other persons fault and their insurance will pay or my uninsured motorist coverage will kick in.
You've obviously never had to deal with an insurance company. If the accident causes serious injury to you and you can't work, you're going to have serious problems, especially if you can't afford an amazing attorney.
26
@24 Sure, but now we are talking about even longer odds. Just for fun lets say that 20% of injury accidents exceed the limits or involve people with no insurance and the average they exceed it by is 100,000 dollars. About 16% of Americans lack health insurance. So we have 200,000 accidents a year with 100,000 in medical costs born by the driver. 16% of those are going to also lack medical insurance so we now have about 32,000 accidents where there is no coverage at all and the driver owes 100,000 in medical bills. 32,000/200,000,000 equals 0.00016.
Multiply that by 100,000 and you can add another 16 bucks to my yearly costs.
Multiply that by 100,000 and you can add another 16 bucks to my yearly costs.
27
@25 I've actually been in a few accidents, and never had much of a problem, though the dollar amounts were not high. But sure, what you and Judah describe its possible, though unlikely. You have to look at the chance of it happening and then figure out the expected cost per person per year. I could also be in a bus accident or hit by a car on a bike or while walking. If we are talking about savings then we should in all honestly be looking at the costs of the alternatives, and both have an accident potential.
And personal injury attorneys almost always work on a contingent fee.
And personal injury attorneys almost always work on a contingent fee.
28
And a quick google search shows cyclists are much more likely to be injured than drivers http://bicycleuniverse.info/transpo/alma…
Almost 5 times more likely.
Almost 5 times more likely.
29
If you get injured in a car accident, your medical insurance will not cover your injuries.
If they're certain they can get a big payout, yes. If not, then you're shit out of luck.
About 16% of Americans lack health insurance. So we have 200,000 accidents a year with 100,000 in medical costs born by the driver. 16% of those are going to also lack medical insurance so we now have about 32,000 accidents where there is no coverage at all and the driver owes 100,000 in medical bills.
If you get injured in a car accident, your medical insurance will not cover your injuries.
And personal injury attorneys almost always work on a contingent fee.
If they're certain they can get a big payout, yes. If not, then you're shit out of luck.
30
And even if they are certain they can get a payout, they then get a third of your payout. Assuming that the court awarded you a payout equal to your damages, your actual payout is short of your damages by a third.
If they're certain they can get a big payout, yes. If not, then you're shit out of luck.
And even if they are certain they can get a payout, they then get a third of your payout. Assuming that the court awarded you a payout equal to your damages, your actual payout is short of your damages by a third.
31
If you get injured in a car accident, your medical insurance will not cover your injuries.
Not true. A few don't but most do. Though they may ask you seek recovery from the other drivers insurance company if they were at fault.
If they're certain they can get a big payout, yes. If not, then you're shit out of luck.
There are plenty of attorneys who take cases all the way down to a few thousand. I know some of them. Yeah if you got someone with zero insurance and zero assets its going to be hard, but we are talking a very small chance of that happening and its just as likely, more likely really, to happen while walking or on a bike.
32
$10,000 does seem a bit high:
$80-150 insurance: $960 to $1800 saved each year.
$20 gas every 4-5 days: ~$2000 saved
No oil changes: ~$100 saved
No repairs: ~$500-1000 saved
Sure, you'd save a bunch even if you factored in the monthly purchase of a bus pass and the occasional car rental, but that's way short of $10K.
I think they get most of the number from a hypothetical car payment: $3000-6000 saved. However, most of us would drive crappy beaters or a depreciated used car, and would find some way to pay cash, or finance such a car for cheap. Paying 3-5 years on a new car is a luxury splurge.
$80-150 insurance: $960 to $1800 saved each year.
$20 gas every 4-5 days: ~$2000 saved
No oil changes: ~$100 saved
No repairs: ~$500-1000 saved
Sure, you'd save a bunch even if you factored in the monthly purchase of a bus pass and the occasional car rental, but that's way short of $10K.
I think they get most of the number from a hypothetical car payment: $3000-6000 saved. However, most of us would drive crappy beaters or a depreciated used car, and would find some way to pay cash, or finance such a car for cheap. Paying 3-5 years on a new car is a luxury splurge.
33
$10,000 does seem a bit high:
$80-150 insurance: $960 to $1800 saved each year.
$20-30 in gas every 4-5 days (if you drive a fuel efficient vehicle): ~$2000 saved
No oil changes: ~$100 saved
No repairs: ~$500-1000 saved
Sure, you'd save a bunch even if you factored in the monthly purchase of a bus pass and the occasional car rental, but that's way short of $10K.
I think they get most of the number from a hypothetical car payment: $3000-6000 saved. However, most of us would drive crappy beaters or a depreciated used car, and would find some way to pay cash, or finance such a car for cheap. Paying 3-5 years on a new car is a luxury splurge.
$80-150 insurance: $960 to $1800 saved each year.
$20-30 in gas every 4-5 days (if you drive a fuel efficient vehicle): ~$2000 saved
No oil changes: ~$100 saved
No repairs: ~$500-1000 saved
Sure, you'd save a bunch even if you factored in the monthly purchase of a bus pass and the occasional car rental, but that's way short of $10K.
I think they get most of the number from a hypothetical car payment: $3000-6000 saved. However, most of us would drive crappy beaters or a depreciated used car, and would find some way to pay cash, or finance such a car for cheap. Paying 3-5 years on a new car is a luxury splurge.
34
I suppose there's a difference between "ditching your car" and "going out and getting a car", but if I were to go purchase or lease a mid-range car, assuming I had an average commute, it'd probably run me close to $10k a year.
Remember, the monthly payment on a $25k loan could hover around $500, add on $100-200 per month insurance (you can't roll with just liability coverage when the bank owns your car), $100+ a month for gas (assumes about a 15 mile commute), which is generous in these parts... tack on any repairs either under my deductible or not covered by warranty, a couple of tickets here and there, and the TCO gets pretty damn high.
Remember, the monthly payment on a $25k loan could hover around $500, add on $100-200 per month insurance (you can't roll with just liability coverage when the bank owns your car), $100+ a month for gas (assumes about a 15 mile commute), which is generous in these parts... tack on any repairs either under my deductible or not covered by warranty, a couple of tickets here and there, and the TCO gets pretty damn high.
35
Ah, but what is the opportunity cost of not owning a car? How do you quantify value of time lost, risk of medical expenses from communicable diseases caught on the bus, risk of being assaulted on the bus, etc? If we're going to get into probabilities we have to look at all the factors.
36
My car is older than eight years -- coming up on thirteen. My insurance is cheap because I'm a decent driver. I don't drive very many miles. Maintenance is almost nothing, maybe $150 a year.
I have no doubt that a 20-year-old male driving an Escalade 30,000 miles a year is spending that much, but I'm at about a fifth of that. And guess what? I value my time. Hmm, let's call it $100 a hour. The bus takes well over half an hour longer than the drive -- so $50 a day, that's at least $10,000 right there. More like twice that, if you consider the convenience factor -- I can come and go as I please in my car (or on foot, to be fair). The bus comes every half hour, and misses BOTH my start and my destination by several blocks, and that's AFTER a fucking transfer. It is quite literally quicker to walk the whole way.
In a city like Seattle, the bus is only for people who work downtown -- or losers. Sorry, but that's the way it is. Look around you.
I have no doubt that a 20-year-old male driving an Escalade 30,000 miles a year is spending that much, but I'm at about a fifth of that. And guess what? I value my time. Hmm, let's call it $100 a hour. The bus takes well over half an hour longer than the drive -- so $50 a day, that's at least $10,000 right there. More like twice that, if you consider the convenience factor -- I can come and go as I please in my car (or on foot, to be fair). The bus comes every half hour, and misses BOTH my start and my destination by several blocks, and that's AFTER a fucking transfer. It is quite literally quicker to walk the whole way.
In a city like Seattle, the bus is only for people who work downtown -- or losers. Sorry, but that's the way it is. Look around you.
37
You might conceivably save *as much as* $10,000 a year. In 2.5 years without a car in Seattle when gas was over $3, I saved that much on gas, car payments, maintenance, plates. That was $4000 a year (10,000 mpy average driving).
BUT ... after 4 years without a car in Seattle I gotta say ... you ain't going to get around that much any more. Those endless (often cold, wet, dark) waits at bus stops WILL put a crimp in your wanderlust.
BUT ... after 4 years without a car in Seattle I gotta say ... you ain't going to get around that much any more. Those endless (often cold, wet, dark) waits at bus stops WILL put a crimp in your wanderlust.
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