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News & ArtsMonday, May 4, 2009
Transportation / Snoutbreak Does Metro Have An Obligation to Keep Sick People Off Buses?
Posted by Erica C. Barnett on Mon, May 4, 2009 at 11:52 AM
An exchange I had with Slog commenter "I Got Nuthin'" this morning (edited for space):
I boarded the 271 to Bellevue at the UW. A gentleman (25 - 30 years old) was already on the bus, sitting about half way back on the driver's side. The bus was maybe at 25% of capacity with people spread out as one would typically find on any bus in the city.As soon as I got seated, the aforementioned gentleman immediately caught my attention because of an incessant and deep hacking cough. I estimate that he coughed—2 or 3 coughs at a time—every 30 seconds for the duration of the half hour trip that we shared. Of course, this being Seattle, everybody just sat and endured it. No eye contact, no suggesting that maybe he shouldn't be out in public, no reaction from the bus driver. At one point I did spend several seconds studying the cougher and I have to say that he looked like death. His cheeks and forehead were all rosy. He was clearly congested and appeared to be in a generally miserable condition physically.
Which leads me to my questions:
1. Would it have been appropriate for someone to suggest to this person that maybe in light of the "swine" flu pandemic and associated fears, that he shouldn't be out in public, well alone on the bus?
2. What role does the bus driver have in protecting his riders?
3. Has Metro published any guidelines regarding situations like this?
And my response:
As far as I know, Metro doesn't have any specific guidelines about people riding the buses while sick. When I talked to Metro GM Kevin Desmond last week, he said their basic policy was to advise people not to ride the buses while sick, to cover their coughs, and to be mindful of other passengers. Obviously, this guy wasn't doing that, and I'm not sure what their advice would be in that situation—I have a call in to their PR person to find out if there's any kind of actual policy.In general, though, I think passengers would be in the right asking the coughing guy, politely, if he was OK and whether he should be out and about. Given that Metro's a public accommodation, and coughing doesn't violate the agency's code of conduct, I don't think the driver would be able to make him leave. But I'll let you (and Slog) know what I find out.
I haven't heard back from Metro yet, but I did take a closer look at the code of conduct, and it's pretty clear that you would have been in the right at least saying something to the driver or the passenger. From there, it would be the driver's call whether to ask the passenger to leave or continue to ignore him. Specifically, the code of conduct prohibits causing "safety problems," and advises passengers to call 9-1-1 if they see a medical emergency. (Hilariously, the code of conduct also prohibits both "spitting" AND "expectorating.") The bottom line is, you shouldn't have to put up with a gross hacking cougher on the bus—particularly during a possible epidemic—but there's only so much you can do. The rest depends on the driver and the consideration of the cougher.
3
maybe you haven't heard that swine flu paranoia is now generally recognized to be silly. i thought slog was with the curve on this one.
4
I wonder if this guy was on his way to the doctor. Not too much of a stretch to imagine that the bus might be his only way of getting there.
Anyways, I'm generally not inclined to withhold my opinions, but in this case I might have ignored it and just try to minimize my exposure. Sometimes being sick in public can't be helped, and I wouldn't want to confront someone sick unless I was pretty sure that wasn't the case.
Anyways, I'm generally not inclined to withhold my opinions, but in this case I might have ignored it and just try to minimize my exposure. Sometimes being sick in public can't be helped, and I wouldn't want to confront someone sick unless I was pretty sure that wasn't the case.
5
while we're at it, why don't we just kill the guy and dump in his body in the gutter...
sometimes I feel sorry for all the shit that ECB gets, and other times, like this, I'd like to dump HER body in a gutter.
While the rest of the country AND the media is starting to realize that our "killer" pandemic isn't much of a killer and the hysteria is unwarranted, ECB continues to flog that dead horse 'cause she's scared to death that she's going to be denied her right to live to 97 and the continued torture of people forced to put up with her "journalism".
sometimes I feel sorry for all the shit that ECB gets, and other times, like this, I'd like to dump HER body in a gutter.
While the rest of the country AND the media is starting to realize that our "killer" pandemic isn't much of a killer and the hysteria is unwarranted, ECB continues to flog that dead horse 'cause she's scared to death that she's going to be denied her right to live to 97 and the continued torture of people forced to put up with her "journalism".
7
Newsflash: every single fucking day you ride a bus, you're sharing it with people with SOMETHING that is communicable. Or, maybe Metro needs to hire licensed medtechs to give phyicals to everyone boarding the bus so ecb can feel safer on the bus. Or maybe they just need a "Certified Healthy to Ride Metro" bus for the healthy and able-bodied, (cause we know ecb can't put up with anyone in a wheelchair).
9
There's no way it's acceptable to kick someone off a bus for coughing, unless he is purposefully coughing ON people in a malicious manner. Sometimes sharing space with people, like on a public bus, means not being an uptight asshole about normal people stuff, like having a cold.
10
I believe that in this context, "spitting" means saliva, and "expectorating" means phlegm, so they're not the same thing.
11
The rerun of House this weekend was the the one where the diagnosis was "mass hysteria" - seemed very appropriate given the current atmosphere.
Also, if you're well and worried about catching something: Wear a face mask.
Also, if you're well and worried about catching something: Wear a face mask.
13
Public transportation is just that: the public. Get used to it or get off.
You don't really want to start re-visiting the question of denying public services to people perceived as having cooties, do you? Which criteria will we use? Skin color, language, special places for people depending on their gender, etc.........
You don't really want to start re-visiting the question of denying public services to people perceived as having cooties, do you? Which criteria will we use? Skin color, language, special places for people depending on their gender, etc.........
14
OMG, CARS ARE EVIL!!!
Just make sure you don't need to take the bus to get to your doctor's office or a nearby hospital. Because, if you do, YOU ARE EVIL TOO!!!
Just make sure you don't need to take the bus to get to your doctor's office or a nearby hospital. Because, if you do, YOU ARE EVIL TOO!!!
16
Sometimes sharing space with people, like on a public bus, means not being an uptight asshole
What? This is Seattle. Uptight asshole is our schtick.
Can you imagine how much it would suck to be the weak, sickly person that gets booted off of public transit in the middle of nowhere for a cough? Talk about adding insult to injury...
What? This is Seattle. Uptight asshole is our schtick.
Can you imagine how much it would suck to be the weak, sickly person that gets booted off of public transit in the middle of nowhere for a cough? Talk about adding insult to injury...
17
@ 9 fair enough...but what about a friendly reminder to cover their fucking mouths so that the spread is minimal? I don't think that expecting people to practice good hygiene falls into the "being an uptight asshole" category.
18
In typical Seattle-manner, I'm sure no one said a word to the gentleman or the bus driver. Maybe a passive-aggressive stare or two was incurred.
That being said, I'm with @9, a bus is a public place with plenty of other diseases floating around. I don't think you have a right to ask him to get off the bus. If you're uncomfortable, go find another bus.
That being said, I'm with @9, a bus is a public place with plenty of other diseases floating around. I don't think you have a right to ask him to get off the bus. If you're uncomfortable, go find another bus.
19
You shouldn't have to put up with a gross hacking cough on the bus? OMG! You can't keep people off of Metro if they're sick -- that may be their only transportation to medical care. Please don't encourage any more mob mentality around sick people. Please don't take the attitude that other people "get you" sick as if its some kind of assault. For goodness sake, get a mask, wash your hands, take your vitamin C and keep your "inviolate body" off public transport if you truly can't accept the risk.
20
You shouldn't have to put up with a gross hacking cough on the bus? OMG! You can't keep people off of Metro if they're sick -- that may be their only transportation to medical care. Please don't encourage any more mob mentality around sick people. Please don't take the attitude that other people "get you" sick as if its some kind of assault. For goodness sake, get a mask, wash your hands, take your vitamin C and keep your "inviolate body" off public transport if you truly can't accept the risk.
22
You know, I'm kind of bemused by the folks insisting that "only in Seattle" would everyone leave the cougher undisturbed. WTF do they do in other places, lynch them? Scream curses? What? I mean, what are we *supposed* to be doing with people (who may have lung cancer and may be on their way to their radiation or chemo treatment) - dumping them on the side of the road halfway to their destination?
23
i think that the seats, handles, rails and pull cords pose far more of an exposure risk than anything this guy might have been lugging around in his chest.
no, there's no way on earth it would have been ok to kick him off the bus. buses are filthy and so is almost everything else you touch over the course of the day.
take reasonable precautions, but if you allow yourself to think too long on this stuff you'll lose your mind.
no, there's no way on earth it would have been ok to kick him off the bus. buses are filthy and so is almost everything else you touch over the course of the day.
take reasonable precautions, but if you allow yourself to think too long on this stuff you'll lose your mind.
24
A year ago, I rode in front of a guy who cracked open the window to repeatedly spit out the window...because he felt nauseated. That was fun.
25
Hmm. In my experience, it seems more likely that a Seattleite would say something to the passenger (c.f., astute points above regarding uptight assholes). In other (less passive-aggressive) cities, I imagine that someone would yell at the guy if he wasn't covering his mouth. If it were really crowded, I can imagine people demanding he get off and find a cab.
Seriously, though, this is a dumb, panicky reaction from a probable control-freak. Riding the bus already indicates an acceptance of an elevated risk of contracting communicable illnesses. If you didn't realize that, you're probably on a different bus from the one we're talking about.
Moreover, many viruses are most contagious before they even express symptoms. If you cannot cope with the risk, public transportation is not for you.
Seriously, though, this is a dumb, panicky reaction from a probable control-freak. Riding the bus already indicates an acceptance of an elevated risk of contracting communicable illnesses. If you didn't realize that, you're probably on a different bus from the one we're talking about.
Moreover, many viruses are most contagious before they even express symptoms. If you cannot cope with the risk, public transportation is not for you.
26
Interesting question, but unless there is some emergency declaration from the Health Department about not being on buses when ill or having to wear a mask (and providing them) if ill or whatever, I don't think pushing it off on the bus driver is really fair -- he/she has more than enough other crap to deal with.
27
@17: Maybe I need to read it a few more times, but it looks like there's no mention of whether the gentleman was coughing openly -- just frequently and forcefully.
28
1)good thing ECB wasn't writing for newspapers in 1986...we would have been treated to "Does Metro have the right to keep AIDS patients off the bus?"
2)And, more breaking news: Many of the people who ride the bus are poor. Most poor people aren't covered by health insurance. They can't afford a car, or to take the day off from work because they are sick.
Welcome to America...
2)And, more breaking news: Many of the people who ride the bus are poor. Most poor people aren't covered by health insurance. They can't afford a car, or to take the day off from work because they are sick.
Welcome to America...
29
Nope. Wrong. Wrong. Wrong.
What does "Don't Panic" look like?
Feigning concern, shoehorning a rider with a cough into rider safety rules, and using those rules “out of concern for others” is panic… it’s pure self-interest on ECB’s part… panic is putting self-interest ahead of any other concern.
Don’t fan the flames of panic… don’t advocate dragging riders off buses. Even under the veil of authority.
What does "Don't Panic" look like?
Feigning concern, shoehorning a rider with a cough into rider safety rules, and using those rules “out of concern for others” is panic… it’s pure self-interest on ECB’s part… panic is putting self-interest ahead of any other concern.
Don’t fan the flames of panic… don’t advocate dragging riders off buses. Even under the veil of authority.
30
i would like to see the buses offer FREE MASKS for anyone boarding who either 1. feels sick and gross and is concerned for their co-riders or 2. anyone who is ultra paranoid about riding with a bunch of sickos.
32
Let me see - panic unnecessarily when normally flu kills tens of thousands of Americans each year and this isn't worse than that per se ...
Or ignore the person clipping their toenails on the bus.
Want to avoid the flu? Wash your hands with hot (not scalding) water and non-antibiotic soap. That does more than any other preventive measure. And helps you avoid colds and flu of all types.
Or ignore the person clipping their toenails on the bus.
Want to avoid the flu? Wash your hands with hot (not scalding) water and non-antibiotic soap. That does more than any other preventive measure. And helps you avoid colds and flu of all types.
33
I was the sick guy last week... On day 10 of a nasty head cold, finally heading back to work, and trying like hell not to cough on the packed ST bus. Then the throat tickle took hold and I couldn't stop hacking for a good minute or two... I covered my mouth with my hands and aimed my face toward for the aisle but a man in the seat in front of me still found it necessary to stand up and ask "Are you sure you should be going to work today?" I rasped out an answer about how I'd seen my doctor and it was just a common swine cold, not the flu, and I was cleared to go back to work. Humiliating! In retrospect, I applaud his gumption.
Still cough-cough-coughing away (in the confines of my own office today).
Still cough-cough-coughing away (in the confines of my own office today).
34
Well, the obvious answer is that if you're afraid of getting sick on a bus, just travel via car, single-occupancy so you won't be in close proximity with anyone else who might be a disease carrier. It has to be your car, too. I doubt that Zipcar is disinfecting every rental vehicle between every single appointment, so you'd still be exposing yourself.
You'd also do well to move out of the densely-populated urban core to some kind of exurban community, where the reduced population density will allow you to stay reasonably isolated until the panic has abated.
You'd also do well to move out of the densely-populated urban core to some kind of exurban community, where the reduced population density will allow you to stay reasonably isolated until the panic has abated.
35
if you're scared of getting sick, the logical thing to do is seal yourself in an air-tight box until it's safe to come out.
36
Spitting: the act of forcibly expelling from the mouth (Spit: another word for saliva)
Expectorate: To cough up fluid from the lungs.
We may need to revisit the whole 'stupid cunt' thing...
Expectorate: To cough up fluid from the lungs.
We may need to revisit the whole 'stupid cunt' thing...
37
Obviously, a troupe of previously unacquainted hipsters should have organized ad hoc, Flight 93 style, to rush the guy and throw him under the bus ... otherwise he'd just use a transfer to board and terrorize another bus.
Ya can't be too careful, can ya?
Next topic: block to block search-and-destroy missions aimed at pot-bellied pigs. (Can we train pit bulls for this purpose?)
Ya can't be too careful, can ya?
Next topic: block to block search-and-destroy missions aimed at pot-bellied pigs. (Can we train pit bulls for this purpose?)
39
So ECB merely asks the question whether sick people can be ejected from the bus, and concludes that no, they can't, and that makes her the worst person in the world.
Whatever.
Whatever.
40
perhaps it could be seen as discrimination to ask the cougher to leave the bus as it would be assuming that his illness is communicable (the same way drivers cannot deny those with service animals or movie theater employees cannot ask for senior i.d. when purchasing discounted tickets). obviously, people suffer from non-communicable respiratory disease that may make people uncomfortable however is in no way a threat to their own health (ie emphysema).
42
no, ecb isn't the worst person in the world...there are still quite a few living former members of the SS, the Baader-Meinhof gang, Charlie Manson, Matthew McConnaughy and most of the Bush Administration.
and, ecb makes it very clear in her post that she thinks this guy doesn't need to be on the bus...let's not pretend she's being the impartial journalist here only stating fact.
and, ecb makes it very clear in her post that she thinks this guy doesn't need to be on the bus...let's not pretend she's being the impartial journalist here only stating fact.
43
@39: Some people will bash ECB no matter what she does. My negative comments were much more directed at the person who raised the issue, since he/she seemed astonished by the fact that no one was bum-rushing the poor dude off the bus and into the ship canal or something.
I have nothing against asking the question. What rubs me the wrong way is this absurdly naive "why doesn't someone do something about this?" stance that seems to have informed the original comment. It smacks of sheltered middle-class entitlement, and that makes my skin crawl.
I have nothing against asking the question. What rubs me the wrong way is this absurdly naive "why doesn't someone do something about this?" stance that seems to have informed the original comment. It smacks of sheltered middle-class entitlement, and that makes my skin crawl.
45
@30: Just what I was thinking. Hand sanitizer wipes would be another good idea - even grocery stores provide them for people who want to wipe down cart handles.
46
For maximum safety, wear night-vision goggles at all times. Any passenger with a fever will show up as the contagious bright green blob he/she really is.
47
@ 39, given the way she concluded her post, I think it's reasonable to conclude that ECB's being less than sensitive toward the sick person ("gross cougher"), especially since I Got Nuthin didn't say he was not covering his mouth, or was coughing into his hand or anything else to warrant such a characterization. And it sounds like she believes that, yes, sick people should be kept off the bus.
48
"movie theater employees cannot ask for senior i.d. when purchasing discounted tickets"
Wait, really? Since when?
I think it would be nice if the busses handed out masks and purell, but the, they probably can't afford them-- people should bring their own. You can't kick a guy off for coughing, what if he had lung cancer or something else non-contagious and terminal? You want to confront a guy and have him tell you he's dying of lung cancer, or make him get out in the middle of the city and walk to his oncologist?
PS. Why are some comments now on a faded background and others are not?
Wait, really? Since when?
I think it would be nice if the busses handed out masks and purell, but the, they probably can't afford them-- people should bring their own. You can't kick a guy off for coughing, what if he had lung cancer or something else non-contagious and terminal? You want to confront a guy and have him tell you he's dying of lung cancer, or make him get out in the middle of the city and walk to his oncologist?
PS. Why are some comments now on a faded background and others are not?
50
You know, it's possible the guy had allergies with bad post-nasal drip. It is the spring, after all, when allergies tend to be at their worst. In my part of the country, if we forced everyone who was congested and coughing to stay home, no one would ever leave their houses.
People on the bus can't be arbiters of who gets to ride. It isn't just.
People on the bus can't be arbiters of who gets to ride. It isn't just.
51
Sheryl @ 50 -- Yes, it's possible the guy had allergies and post-nasal drip ... but OTOH isn't it possible he was one of those porcine/human hybrids bred for hedge fund management, on a mission to spread a lethal swinish contagion to humans as revenge for the recent collapse of their evil hedgy ambitions?
Read back over the whole description.
It all fits, doesn't it?
Read back over the whole description.
It all fits, doesn't it?
53
1)Metro can barely afford to keep the buses running, let alone provide hand cremes and masks.
2)ECB LIKES to provoke ire because it makes her feel important...also, she has a martyr complex...also, she can just chalk it up to misogyny, the random fits all for woman justly criticized for behaving badly...
2)ECB LIKES to provoke ire because it makes her feel important...also, she has a martyr complex...also, she can just chalk it up to misogyny, the random fits all for woman justly criticized for behaving badly...
54
OK, OK, I have to admit you might be right, RonK @51. I suppose the pattern does fit.
I shall now proceed to stick myself into a hermetically sealed tube and not emerge until the reveloution is over and the pig people have been defeated. Though, with our current economic system, I may die in there.
I shall now proceed to stick myself into a hermetically sealed tube and not emerge until the reveloution is over and the pig people have been defeated. Though, with our current economic system, I may die in there.
55
Make sure you have some air holes, Sheryl. Although normal filtration won't stop virii ... so you'd have to go to positive air supply methods.
56
Wow, I'm amazed at the direction of the reaction here. This person WAS NOT COVERING THEIR COUGH. If you expect public transit to be a serious option for anyone but those who cannot afford ANYTHING else, a big step would be to have it not be a personal hazard. That means ejecting people who pose a health hazard to others through their own choices and actions.
If this person is poor and can't take a sick day or get health care, what about all the other people who can't take sick days or afford health care he's just exposed to his illness? Yes, it sucks to be sick in the US if you're poor, but that's even MORE reason not to go spreading it around and more reason that the riders of public transit should be able to expect reasonable standards of behavior around personal hygiene and sanitation will be enforced.
If this person is poor and can't take a sick day or get health care, what about all the other people who can't take sick days or afford health care he's just exposed to his illness? Yes, it sucks to be sick in the US if you're poor, but that's even MORE reason not to go spreading it around and more reason that the riders of public transit should be able to expect reasonable standards of behavior around personal hygiene and sanitation will be enforced.
57
@ 56, it doesn't say anywhere in "I Got Nuthin"s comment that the sick man wasn't covering his cough. ECB says he "obviously" was, but it's not obvious to me.
58
@56: At least two people now have pointed out that nowhere in the original story from "I Got Nuthin" does it say the person was not covering their cough. In fact, IGN's primary complaint seems to be that he was coughing really loud and really often; that's it.
Jeezus.
Jeezus.
59
@56: Again, the fact that someone is coughing does not make them magically more contagious than if they were not coughing. This is one of those cases where humans are remarkably bad at assessing risks in the modern world. Just because we have a built-in, instinctual aversion to a certain kind of stimulus does not mean that our immediate response it rational.
There are lots of hacking coughers who are not contagious. Many viruses are most contagious prior to expressing symptoms. Ergo, a coughing stranger does automatically equate with a high or even increased risk of illness for you.
The minute we start kicking people off the bus because they look like they've got something is the minute we've given in to panic and mob rule. Those defending this thinking should be kicked in the shin immediately.
There are lots of hacking coughers who are not contagious. Many viruses are most contagious prior to expressing symptoms. Ergo, a coughing stranger does automatically equate with a high or even increased risk of illness for you.
The minute we start kicking people off the bus because they look like they've got something is the minute we've given in to panic and mob rule. Those defending this thinking should be kicked in the shin immediately.
60
@56: Again, the fact that someone is coughing does not make them magically more contagious than if they were not coughing. This is one of those cases where humans are remarkably bad at assessing risks in the modern world. Just because we have a built-in, instinctual aversion to a certain kind of stimulus does not mean that our immediate response is rational.
There are lots of hacking coughers who are not contagious. Many viruses are most contagious prior to expressing symptoms. Ergo, a coughing stranger does automatically equate with a high or even increased risk of illness for you.
The minute we start kicking people off the bus because they look like they've got something is the minute we've given in to panic and mob rule. Those defending this thinking should be kicked in the shin immediately.
There are lots of hacking coughers who are not contagious. Many viruses are most contagious prior to expressing symptoms. Ergo, a coughing stranger does automatically equate with a high or even increased risk of illness for you.
The minute we start kicking people off the bus because they look like they've got something is the minute we've given in to panic and mob rule. Those defending this thinking should be kicked in the shin immediately.
61
Or to put it yet another way...
"Does Metro Have An Obligation to Keep Asthmatics Off Buses?"
(NO, I AM NOT CONTAGIOUS. NO, I DO NOT NEED A FUCKING COUGH DROP.)
Good thing I renewed my UW Single-Occupancy-Vehicle parking pass this week.
"Does Metro Have An Obligation to Keep Asthmatics Off Buses?"
(NO, I AM NOT CONTAGIOUS. NO, I DO NOT NEED A FUCKING COUGH DROP.)
Good thing I renewed my UW Single-Occupancy-Vehicle parking pass this week.
63
People don't have sick time and have to go to work regardless of their condition if they're going to pay the rent next month. I bet if this guy could have stayed home, he would have.
64
Really, since the original post was only about being concerned, and no one was in danger of or even came anywhere close to being kicked off the bus for being sick, this whole rightous thing I'm hearing in this thread of, 'well, do you want to cause a panic? How dare you even broach such a subject'---is itself an over reaction---to the fear of over reacting.
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