Find Your Valentine
Slog
News & ArtsThursday, April 30, 2009
Homo We're Winning
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 8:22 AM
ABC News conducted a poll on that issue that only Slog cares about—marriage equality—and found that support for same-sex marriage is at an all-time high. These results should have Maggie Gallagher's crapping her pants until the next poll comes out:
Take gay marriage, legal in Massachusetts, Connecticut and now Iowa, with Vermont coming aboard in September. At its low, in 2004, just 32 percent of Americans favored gay marriage, with 62 percent opposed. Now 49 percent support it versus 46 percent opposed—the first time in ABC/Post polls that supporters have outnumbered opponents.More than half, moreover—53 percent—say gay marriages held legally in another state should be recognized as legal in their states.
The surprise is that the shift has occurred across ideological groups. While conservatives are least apt to favor gay marriage, they've gone from 10 percent support in 2004 to 19 percent in 2006 and 30 percent now—overall a 20-point, threefold increase, alongside a 13-point gain among liberals and 14 points among moderates. (Politically, support for gay marriage has risen sharply among Democrats and independents alike, while far more slightly among Republicans.)
2
It's not surprising stats, even if they're nice to look at. I'm nineteen and know some conservative kids around my age, but most of them don't see a problem with gay marriage. They'll bitch and whine about all the other things conservatives bitch and whine about, but gay marriage and rights have always been an issue they supported. And I live in Ohio.
Besides, as more and more gays and lesbians feel comfortable coming out, the more people know in their own lives and they can begin to see how they're not any different from us breeders. My own mom didn't support gay marriage for a long time, until she started working with two gay men who became her best friends and realized they were no different in their humanity.
Besides, as more and more gays and lesbians feel comfortable coming out, the more people know in their own lives and they can begin to see how they're not any different from us breeders. My own mom didn't support gay marriage for a long time, until she started working with two gay men who became her best friends and realized they were no different in their humanity.
3
We're winning because, frankly, marriage equality isn't that big of a deal. What I mean is, people who might have been knee-jerk against it before are seeing with their own eyes that NOTHING HAPPENS when you allow marriage equality (unless you happen to be on the unequal side beforehand, and then good things happen).
So the poll numbers will continue to move in the equality direction because equality will continue to have zero negative impacts and many positive ones. Yeah!!
So the poll numbers will continue to move in the equality direction because equality will continue to have zero negative impacts and many positive ones. Yeah!!
4
@1: I agree with you! We're moving away from marriage inequality like we moved away from slavery. Before, a majority supported slavery and that changed. So too will support for marriage inequality slip.
We're winning! Yay! *hug*
We're winning! Yay! *hug*
5
1, Then, like with gay marriage, public attitudes changed to believe in more freedom for people, and slavery ended, as will bans on gay marriage.
7
And right beats might continues. This is proof again that, in America, people's desire for freedom and justice is alive and well (despite the last eight years).
8
I'm sure about 50 years after it's legalized and everyone already has accepted it long ago, churches will come out with a new version of the bible that shows god actually does support homosexuals and gay marriage.
Churches are really in touch with modern thinking that way.
Churches are really in touch with modern thinking that way.
9
For several years Slog has been insisting that gay marriage is much too important to trust to the will of the filthy masses. Now all of the sudden Dan has become a poll whore.
What gives?
What gives?
10
@1 -- not sure that's true -- if you counted the views of the enslaved persons and the effects of the 3.5 a person rule. Certainly with regard to places like SC where enslaved persons were the majority, your statement is not true. And in the structures that determined the "majority" in the House, and electoral college votes, the enslavement faction got extra votes thru that 3/5 a person rule, for example without that undemocratic bump Jefferson (an enslaver) would not have beaten Adams (anti-enslavery). And of course the northern states had it but each rejected it from about 1776 thru the 1830s I think ...(just like NE states rejecting gay marriage inequality today).
Amazing how the legacies of enslavement including myths of its "support" persist even in thoughts and minds today.
Amazing how the legacies of enslavement including myths of its "support" persist even in thoughts and minds today.
11
Great, then gay lobby groups should have no problem now with letting the people decide through the democratic process if they want to see gay marriage instituted. Yay!
* mental retardation with a sprinkle of racism = mentally connected.*
* mental retardation with a sprinkle of racism = mentally connected.*
12
Here's why I think polling is stupid, I understand it's important in the reality we live in but the idea that public opinion is needed for something to change is stupid.
Let's say ABC news does a poll that shows a large number of people disagree that murder should be a felony. Does that mean murder should now be changed because of the will of the majority?
I support gay marriage because it's the right and equal thing to do, I don't care how many morons think otherwise, if 2 gay people live together and 'feel' married they are married, period. No paper from the state or church can ever make me believe differently. They've lost before they started.
Let's say ABC news does a poll that shows a large number of people disagree that murder should be a felony. Does that mean murder should now be changed because of the will of the majority?
I support gay marriage because it's the right and equal thing to do, I don't care how many morons think otherwise, if 2 gay people live together and 'feel' married they are married, period. No paper from the state or church can ever make me believe differently. They've lost before they started.
13
@11,
Regardless of the polling numbers, the civil rights of a minority should not be subject to the popular vote of the majority. That's called mob rule.
Regardless of the polling numbers, the civil rights of a minority should not be subject to the popular vote of the majority. That's called mob rule.
14
@12, unless that gay couple's not afforded the rights that come along with marriage. then they're not married. I never planned on having a big, religious wedding, but you better believe I'm gonna get that certificate so the state recognizes us as a family.
And you're right about what other people think - it shouldn't matter much on an issue or rights like this, but it's hard to get anything done in government if the people won't re-elect you. Wait a few years and all these national politicians - at least the dems - who say they're against gay marriage are gonna be all for it.
And you're right about what other people think - it shouldn't matter much on an issue or rights like this, but it's hard to get anything done in government if the people won't re-elect you. Wait a few years and all these national politicians - at least the dems - who say they're against gay marriage are gonna be all for it.
16
@9 "Filthy masses"? I think you are the one who has contempt for what people think. Oh, and people CAN learn things, despite the fact you obviously don't.
17
Further evidence that as those of us who have come of age in the post-Stonewall era, regardless of sexual identity, start becoming the generation 'in power', that the more likely it is for gender and marriage equality to become a reality.
18
@11: Nowhere is Dan suggesting that a public vote should determine who is given rights. This poll simply shows that as gay marriage becomes more prevalent more Americans are ok with it (since they've seen that it has NO effect on their own lives). The point is, we are now not only winning in the courts and the legislature, we are also changing the hearts and minds of "average Joes". Rights are still a far too precious thing to leave up to a popular vote (as I'm sure other minority groups living in areas that are still not quite "friendly" to them would agree).
It's nice to see that Americans en masse are finally realizing that giving others rights doesn't take away from their own!
It's nice to see that Americans en masse are finally realizing that giving others rights doesn't take away from their own!
19
@11: Elected officials legislating IS the democratic process, you dingbat. We have a representative democracy in this country under a federal republic.
Do you want a direct democracy? Wait until the Voting Rights Act is stripped of key protective clauses: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.h… -- the balance will certainly tip in such a way that "direct" doesn't feel so gilded and fabulous anymore.
When -- not if -- they win this particular battle to strip a major facet of the civil rights movement from law, will you stand by them because they're standing up for traditional values and preventing "special rights" from being extended to people who don't deserve them?
Do you want a direct democracy? Wait until the Voting Rights Act is stripped of key protective clauses: http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.h… -- the balance will certainly tip in such a way that "direct" doesn't feel so gilded and fabulous anymore.
When -- not if -- they win this particular battle to strip a major facet of the civil rights movement from law, will you stand by them because they're standing up for traditional values and preventing "special rights" from being extended to people who don't deserve them?
20
18 So public opinion is only valid when it reflects something favorable to gays? And "average Joes" (public opinion) should only be allowed to have an actual say on this matter (through voting) until gays are really sure that they will vote the "friendly" way (the gay way), until then your groups including people like Dan will only bring up public opinion (through polls) in a favorable light when it shows a gain for them. But no voting, silencing and intimidation of the opposition will reign supreme until you can get your way (winning in the courts and the legislature) then perhaps after one state is left standing you gays will show some magnanimity on your part and allow the American people (their actual right as citizens) to vote.
21
The people are deciding right now through a democratic process we call "representative democracy", which has been the standard method for implementing legislation in this country since its founding.
If you weren't a stupid, fucking cunt, you'd know these things.
If you weren't a stupid, fucking cunt, you'd know these things.
22
@20: Winning in the legislature is a de jure vote of the voting public, it's a representative democracy. Legislators take the will of the people and balance against the cause of the greater good, weighing how it would effect the larger public against how it would hinder or raise up the minority. Leaving this up to the people would create a vacuum wherein rights and legislative ability would be subject to the changing whim of the people, more concerned, by and large, with their own well-being than the well-being of their community or country.
As an example, your rights, as an african american, would be nothing if put up to a directly democratic vote, since it requires a majority vote of 2/3rds in 3/4ths of states to ratify an amendment to the constitution, and if we left each ratification vote up to a popular vote, these amendments would have never been ratified. I can name over 20 states that would fail to get a 66% "ratify" vote on every single major question of minority rights.
Of course, with the Voting Rights Act up in the air, you may get to experience severe backlash against the special rights granted to you without the benefit of a popular vote.
Maybe that will teach you a little humility.
As an example, your rights, as an african american, would be nothing if put up to a directly democratic vote, since it requires a majority vote of 2/3rds in 3/4ths of states to ratify an amendment to the constitution, and if we left each ratification vote up to a popular vote, these amendments would have never been ratified. I can name over 20 states that would fail to get a 66% "ratify" vote on every single major question of minority rights.
Of course, with the Voting Rights Act up in the air, you may get to experience severe backlash against the special rights granted to you without the benefit of a popular vote.
Maybe that will teach you a little humility.
23
"* mental retardation with a sprinkle of racism = mentally connected.*"
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, anyone who murders will be subject to judgement.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, "Raca" (Aramaic for "Empty-head!") is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. (Matthew 5:21-22).
Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and the greatest comamandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself,' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)
The first quote seems at odds with the instructions of Christ. Perhaps some duct tape is needed for those who proclaim themselves Christians, to avoid appearing hypocritical?
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, anyone who murders will be subject to judgement.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, "Raca" (Aramaic for "Empty-head!") is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. (Matthew 5:21-22).
Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and the greatest comamandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself,' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Matthew 22:37-40)
The first quote seems at odds with the instructions of Christ. Perhaps some duct tape is needed for those who proclaim themselves Christians, to avoid appearing hypocritical?
24
@22 - I just gotta tell you: you are fucking awesome. That response was all kinds of spectacular. That is all~
25
@20: Did you even read my comment. I guess the reason most of your posts make you sound like an illiterate loser incapable of understanding basic principles is because you are! I specifically said that: "Rights are still a far too precious thing to leave up to a popular vote", meaning no matter what the polls say we should not be letting the general public vote on who does and does not get rights.
26
25 Fair enough then I take you disapprove of Dan's recognition of polls (public opinion) only when it favors gay ideological views.
And please forgive this "illiterate loser" (who hasn't used an insult against you in her responses) for trying to better understand what appeared to me was selective reasoning on your part in the same way Dan clearly subconsciously advocates with this post.
And please forgive this "illiterate loser" (who hasn't used an insult against you in her responses) for trying to better understand what appeared to me was selective reasoning on your part in the same way Dan clearly subconsciously advocates with this post.
28
@26: Dan's use of polls is in contrast to the constant and shrill shrieking of those who insist that the popular slant is against equality and it should therefore be put up to a vote as a means of correcting a supposed wrong. Selective reasoning is inherent to your idea that what was rejected before will continue to be rejected.
And speaking to "only when it favors [...] ideological views", that's the sole basis of your argument that legislative actions in a representative democracy should be overturned by direct action when you disagree. You've made no secret that your belief is that the popular climate disfavors marriage equality which and that anything not put up to a popular vote in such a climate is invalid. Your erratic replies to polling showing swelling support for marriage equality proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
If you're as sure of yourself as you believe, I propose a moderated roundtable between you, Dan, Kim, Lord Basil and whoever else would be so inclined to participate.
And speaking to "only when it favors [...] ideological views", that's the sole basis of your argument that legislative actions in a representative democracy should be overturned by direct action when you disagree. You've made no secret that your belief is that the popular climate disfavors marriage equality which and that anything not put up to a popular vote in such a climate is invalid. Your erratic replies to polling showing swelling support for marriage equality proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
If you're as sure of yourself as you believe, I propose a moderated roundtable between you, Dan, Kim, Lord Basil and whoever else would be so inclined to participate.
29
Baconcat,
I would like to meet all of you.
Your comments have given me a lot to think about today. I appreciate them very much.
I would like to meet all of you.
Your comments have given me a lot to think about today. I appreciate them very much.
30
loveschild.. you're absolutely right in your assumption that gays don't want this put to a vote. i don't that's for sure. baconcat continuously brings up the issues of minority rights and history as they pertain to civil rights.which you gleefully ignore and continue your mantra of ' put it to a vote'. you want a seperate but equal recognition of gay rights because it would help you feel better all the while ignoring how well that worked for african americans for decades.
so.. and this is not intended to be a personal insult to you , fuck that !. what me and my partner , of 8 years ( after a ten year courtship of sorts which flies in your face of bigoted notion of gays as self indulgent harlots with willy nilly anonymous polygamous buggery ) want is marriage.. or civil unions if you like , so long as civil unions is all the states will allow YOU to have ..just like us.
and what i personally want and am getting, in accordance with my spiritual value system, is a union sanctified by god, supported and celebrated by community, and protected and encouraged by the government. if that idea remains repugnant to you, i respectfully suggest that you go, where such values do not exist. where the goblins go... and i think you know where that is.
so.. and this is not intended to be a personal insult to you , fuck that !. what me and my partner , of 8 years ( after a ten year courtship of sorts which flies in your face of bigoted notion of gays as self indulgent harlots with willy nilly anonymous polygamous buggery ) want is marriage.. or civil unions if you like , so long as civil unions is all the states will allow YOU to have ..just like us.
and what i personally want and am getting, in accordance with my spiritual value system, is a union sanctified by god, supported and celebrated by community, and protected and encouraged by the government. if that idea remains repugnant to you, i respectfully suggest that you go, where such values do not exist. where the goblins go... and i think you know where that is.
31
30 I'm not against civil unions, if you want one have a go at it but I'm against making things up (gay marriage) and instituting them into law to please some political ideological viewpoint, as you have tried to do with your revisionist comparison.
32
@31 revisionist how ?
it's amazing how love between peoples is so political and only so for you. how your rights and your view of your history, of your struggle for them only fits in with and supports your romantically stunted world view. and in case you haven't figured this out, i'm an african american man who was there throughout the peaking of the civil rights movement, a movement that was orchestrated in part by gays ( bayard rustin.. know him ? perhaps not. but you should. in fact what do you know about the long rich struggle of afirican american gays - politicians, orators,artists, musicians, athletes theologians etc.within and outside of that movement) gays were and a part of that struggle. we haven't seemed to exist for you until now, but we've always been there. and will continue to be. many if not most never, ever thought that our rights were seperate from the rights of all peoples.. you think the rights of education, employment, hearth, health and safety, to bear and nourish families just cropped up magically in the last five, ten years as a fashion, or trend ? then you have been blind, willfully so, for a very very long time. if your view of this history ignores and suppresses these facts then you're right i'm personally revising it for you.
seperate and equal ? nope , not having it
it's amazing how love between peoples is so political and only so for you. how your rights and your view of your history, of your struggle for them only fits in with and supports your romantically stunted world view. and in case you haven't figured this out, i'm an african american man who was there throughout the peaking of the civil rights movement, a movement that was orchestrated in part by gays ( bayard rustin.. know him ? perhaps not. but you should. in fact what do you know about the long rich struggle of afirican american gays - politicians, orators,artists, musicians, athletes theologians etc.within and outside of that movement) gays were and a part of that struggle. we haven't seemed to exist for you until now, but we've always been there. and will continue to be. many if not most never, ever thought that our rights were seperate from the rights of all peoples.. you think the rights of education, employment, hearth, health and safety, to bear and nourish families just cropped up magically in the last five, ten years as a fashion, or trend ? then you have been blind, willfully so, for a very very long time. if your view of this history ignores and suppresses these facts then you're right i'm personally revising it for you.
seperate and equal ? nope , not having it
33
@27, you were probably speaking in jest, but I think you've stumbled upon a fabulous idea. In most places in the U.S., a religious official can sign a marriage certificate, thus legally executing the marriage. I think that we should present as a ballot measure whether or not this practice should be allowed to continue. After all, we are giving religious leaders the same rights as elected/appointed officials (some judges are appointed, albeit by elected leaders). Hmmmm...ballot measure indeed.
34
TWO HOURS AGO THE MAINE STATE SENATE APPROVED LEGALIZING GAY MARRIAGE VIA LD 1020. On to our governor...
35
@ 31,
Did you change your position? Do you have a sock puppet? Here is four comments by "Loveschild" that say differently. Either way, you have some 'splainin' to do.
Throughout all the rabid assaults gay activists have committed against families in states like VT, Cali and such I have come to understand that domestic-partnership bills are just a Trojan horse used to force gay marriage on people. So I believe the governor is doing the right thing and I also believe that all other states need to follow his example unless they want to find themselves under attack by a rogue court siding with gays.
1 Amendments banning same sex marriage
2 Bans on gay adoptions
3 Bans on any domestic partnership that might leave the door open to homosexuals to impose through the courts or lobby corrupt politicians into forcing gay marriage
Until the side of the family gets proactive and takes on these three points head on we will be like sitting ducks at the mercy of homosexuals.
Posted by Loveschild on April 15, 2009 at 4:09 PM
------------------------------------------------
42 You couldn't be more hopelessly wrong, this is not a backlash but a revolution. For too long the silent majority has been on the defensive while radical gay groups reek havoc on our families, like the ad says they're no longer content with practising what they want in their bedrooms but they now they want to bring it to my life and my kids school. No more!enough is enough our cry will be heard. Rogue politicians and courts will become once again accountable to us (the people) and not to radical activist groups. It's about time we started to unite to fight productively your illegitimate attacks. The gloves have come off.
Posted by Loveschild on April 8, 2009 at 8:07 AM
------------------------------------------------
You were never in a battle because to begin with Dan. People of faith are not your enemies. There's this wrong belief amongst self identified gays that people of traditional values hate them when in reality its all the opposite. I can assure you that if less followed blindly the aggressive ideologies and tactics of some radical groups you would find less opposition to things such as domestic partnerships and civil unions. I know I was one of them.
Posted by Loveschild on April 10, 2009 at 9:15 AM
--------------------------------------------------
20 No, I did not make my comment clearly.
I have in the past had no problem with same sex pairings being afforded civil partnerships but the push of impositions like gay marriage have really turned me away from even supporting that. And many people of faith feel just like I do.
Posted by Loveschild on April 10, 2009 at 9:50 AM
More...
Did you change your position? Do you have a sock puppet? Here is four comments by "Loveschild" that say differently. Either way, you have some 'splainin' to do.
Throughout all the rabid assaults gay activists have committed against families in states like VT, Cali and such I have come to understand that domestic-partnership bills are just a Trojan horse used to force gay marriage on people. So I believe the governor is doing the right thing and I also believe that all other states need to follow his example unless they want to find themselves under attack by a rogue court siding with gays.
1 Amendments banning same sex marriage
2 Bans on gay adoptions
3 Bans on any domestic partnership that might leave the door open to homosexuals to impose through the courts or lobby corrupt politicians into forcing gay marriage
Until the side of the family gets proactive and takes on these three points head on we will be like sitting ducks at the mercy of homosexuals.
Posted by Loveschild on April 15, 2009 at 4:09 PM
------------------------------------------------
42 You couldn't be more hopelessly wrong, this is not a backlash but a revolution. For too long the silent majority has been on the defensive while radical gay groups reek havoc on our families, like the ad says they're no longer content with practising what they want in their bedrooms but they now they want to bring it to my life and my kids school. No more!enough is enough our cry will be heard. Rogue politicians and courts will become once again accountable to us (the people) and not to radical activist groups. It's about time we started to unite to fight productively your illegitimate attacks. The gloves have come off.
Posted by Loveschild on April 8, 2009 at 8:07 AM
------------------------------------------------
You were never in a battle because to begin with Dan. People of faith are not your enemies. There's this wrong belief amongst self identified gays that people of traditional values hate them when in reality its all the opposite. I can assure you that if less followed blindly the aggressive ideologies and tactics of some radical groups you would find less opposition to things such as domestic partnerships and civil unions. I know I was one of them.
Posted by Loveschild on April 10, 2009 at 9:15 AM
--------------------------------------------------
20 No, I did not make my comment clearly.
I have in the past had no problem with same sex pairings being afforded civil partnerships but the push of impositions like gay marriage have really turned me away from even supporting that. And many people of faith feel just like I do.
Posted by Loveschild on April 10, 2009 at 9:50 AM
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
SL Letter of the Day: Daddy Loves Who? by Dan Savage
-
SL Letter of the Day: Life Sentence by Dan Savage
-
Crowdsourcing Uncut Police Video from the Dec. 12 Occupy Protest at the Port of Seattle by Eli Sanders
-
Slog Bible Study: Deuteronomy 21:10-14 by Goldy
-
The AP Is Reporting That Whitney Houston Is Dead by Paul Constant
-
The Onion Is on a Roll: "Iran Worried U.S. Might Be Building 8,500th Nuclear Weapon" by Charles Mudede
-
Announcing The Stranger's Tournament of Dunces! Who's the Dumbest Representative in the State House? by Christopher Frizzelle
-
Survey Says: Cyclists Would Rather Give Up Sex Than Their Bikes by Bethany Jean Clement
-
Stranger Tournament of Dunces, Match 3: Rep. Mark Hargrove vs. Rep. Norma Smith by Eli Sanders
-
Rachel Maddow Uncovered the Secret Ron Paul Strategy by Paul Constant
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (36) RSS