Slog
News & ArtsThursday, April 30, 2009
Religion There Is No Morality Without Religion
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 4:24 PM
CNN:
The more often Americans go to church, the more likely they are to support the torture of suspected terrorists, according to a new survey.... White evangelical Protestants were the religious group most likely to say torture is often or sometimes justified—more than six in 10 supported it. People unaffiliated with any religious organization were least likely to back it. Only four in 10 of them did.
Perhaps white evangelicals would find my relationship less objectionable if I wanted to torture my boyfriend instead of marrying him. (And, yeah, unaffiliateds aren't exactly moral beacons—four in ten supporting torture isn't anything to shout about.)
4
This is saddening to hear as an American, and especially sad as a Christian. I don't understand how you can follow the teachings of Jesus Christ - who was tortured and killed by the state - and not find these actions reprehensible.
Were these the people who saw Mel's "Passion" movie a dozen times and got all hot and bothered over the scourging?
Were these the people who saw Mel's "Passion" movie a dozen times and got all hot and bothered over the scourging?
7
Jesus wasn't tortured, he knew he had to be subjected to very unpleasant things to save all of mankind. That's like sleeping with Mel Gibson to get a role in a movie. Jim Caviezel.
8
The fact that any of my fellow Christians support the use of torture is depressing, although not surprising. It is interesting to read the break down. Still, I don't see my group, Progressive Social or Red Letter Christians. I am happy to report that I don't have any friends who support the use of torture, and that a quarter of those polled also did not approve.
"The survey asked: "Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?"
Roughly half of all respondents -- 49 percent -- said it is often or sometimes justified. A quarter said it never is.
The religious group most likely to say torture is never justified was Protestant denominations -- such as Episcopalians, Lutherans and Presbyterians -- categorized as "mainline" Protestants, in contrast to evangelicals. Just over three in 10 of them said torture is never justified. A quarter of the religiously unaffiliated said the same, compared with two in 10 white non-Hispanic Catholics and one in eight evangelicals."
"The survey asked: "Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?"
Roughly half of all respondents -- 49 percent -- said it is often or sometimes justified. A quarter said it never is.
The religious group most likely to say torture is never justified was Protestant denominations -- such as Episcopalians, Lutherans and Presbyterians -- categorized as "mainline" Protestants, in contrast to evangelicals. Just over three in 10 of them said torture is never justified. A quarter of the religiously unaffiliated said the same, compared with two in 10 white non-Hispanic Catholics and one in eight evangelicals."
10
6: Has everyone has stopped labeling gay parenting as de facto child abuse? Once that's true, you might have a point.
11
Dan,
Thanks for the post. It ties well to a quote from Dr. Tony Campolo, Eastern University. He said, "It is Evangelicals' tendency to be overly patriotic. We have to ask, is hyper-nationalism so prevalent among our people that it has become a religion of its own, subtly pushing Christianity aside?" If we look back to the 1980's when the Religious Right and the Moral Majority started gaining ground, we can see Fundamentalism/Evangelism growing in response to fear. When social institutions become shaky, the economy crumbles, terrorist attacks, war, and any uncertainty about the future becomes widespread, people look to religion to provide absolutes and a sense of security. When society seems to be changing too quickly for some (like Vermont, Iowa, Mass. and Conn. granting gender neutral marriage) people to handle, a religion filled with unshakable absolutes becomes very attractive. People can shut off their brains and loose their ability to think freely apart from religious legalism. People who can't think freely need groups like AFA, and people like Dobson to tell them what to think.
Dang, that was a long comment. I can't think of another way to reconcile "Loving your neighbor as yourself" with supporting the use of torture. Does someone have a better theory?
Thanks for the post. It ties well to a quote from Dr. Tony Campolo, Eastern University. He said, "It is Evangelicals' tendency to be overly patriotic. We have to ask, is hyper-nationalism so prevalent among our people that it has become a religion of its own, subtly pushing Christianity aside?" If we look back to the 1980's when the Religious Right and the Moral Majority started gaining ground, we can see Fundamentalism/Evangelism growing in response to fear. When social institutions become shaky, the economy crumbles, terrorist attacks, war, and any uncertainty about the future becomes widespread, people look to religion to provide absolutes and a sense of security. When society seems to be changing too quickly for some (like Vermont, Iowa, Mass. and Conn. granting gender neutral marriage) people to handle, a religion filled with unshakable absolutes becomes very attractive. People can shut off their brains and loose their ability to think freely apart from religious legalism. People who can't think freely need groups like AFA, and people like Dobson to tell them what to think.
Dang, that was a long comment. I can't think of another way to reconcile "Loving your neighbor as yourself" with supporting the use of torture. Does someone have a better theory?
12
Unsurprising.
Evangelicals love suffering. Their god is angry and vengeful, and the more people suffer, the happier the evangelicals are.
Evangelicals love suffering. Their god is angry and vengeful, and the more people suffer, the happier the evangelicals are.
14
The Christian kooks are coming out soon quoting everything from Proverbs to Revelation! My good friend often quotes them Malachi 2:3. Look it up, oh it is tasty.
16
Will in Seattle @ 13,
You have a point. Many "fanatics" are fond of watching Fox News and the The 700 club. Who can forget Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson on The 700 Club on September 13, 2001 agreeing together.
Falwell said,"the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -all of them have tried to secularize America- I point the finger in their faces and say, 'You helped this happen.' "
Robertson said, "Well, I totally concur ...
You have a point. Many "fanatics" are fond of watching Fox News and the The 700 club. Who can forget Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson on The 700 Club on September 13, 2001 agreeing together.
Falwell said,"the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -all of them have tried to secularize America- I point the finger in their faces and say, 'You helped this happen.' "
Robertson said, "Well, I totally concur ...
17
Who would Jesus torture?
Anybody remotely familiar with the Biblical Jesus would answer correctly, that Jesus would never torture anybody.
"The survey asked: "Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?"
Of course this question is based on false pretense that torture is for gaining information. It's true purpose is to get enemy combatants to lie about their side to lower morale of the enemy.
We live in an age of Irony. The party of Lincoln is now the party of the racist South, and Christians are torturing the enemies of their state ala ancient Rome.
Anybody remotely familiar with the Biblical Jesus would answer correctly, that Jesus would never torture anybody.
"The survey asked: "Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?"
Of course this question is based on false pretense that torture is for gaining information. It's true purpose is to get enemy combatants to lie about their side to lower morale of the enemy.
We live in an age of Irony. The party of Lincoln is now the party of the racist South, and Christians are torturing the enemies of their state ala ancient Rome.
21
Mr. Poe, is that really you? Praise Jeebus! Slog comments have been lacking without you. I can't believe I just wrote that.
22
1: Torture doesn't work. This has been true and known throughout history and the previous regime's efforts to distort the fact don't change it.
2: While I understand your point with this, Dan, I think it's pretty likely that this comes from the confounding factor of conservative politics parasitizing mainstream religion, rather than directly from the religion itself.
3: This hearkens back, once again, to the psychological research of the last few years which indicated very strongly that people who think of themselves as moral individuals are much more likely on average to commit immoral acts. Evangelical Americans certainly do seem to think of themselves as highly moral people, ergo...
2: While I understand your point with this, Dan, I think it's pretty likely that this comes from the confounding factor of conservative politics parasitizing mainstream religion, rather than directly from the religion itself.
3: This hearkens back, once again, to the psychological research of the last few years which indicated very strongly that people who think of themselves as moral individuals are much more likely on average to commit immoral acts. Evangelical Americans certainly do seem to think of themselves as highly moral people, ergo...
24
Sometimes I really want to take that "clergy" sticker off of my car. I bet if you did a poll, you would find that the mainline churches buck that trend...at least above the Mason Dixon line. Still, it frightens me that some in the church like to keep the people ignorant and suggestable...a church of lemmings. in SUVs. voting against people who are pro-choice and for people who are pro-death penalty. argh. sigh.
25
I could have quessed this. Someone has to send this to Richard Dawkins. It would back up what he has said and wrote in the God Delusion. Dan, how do you get your information?
26
I think it has to do with these people spending one day a week staring up at a guy nailed to a piece of wood with a bloody wound in his side, and a bunch of thorny brambles shoved down on his head.
I mean, the guy just hangs up there, hour after hour, week after week, year after year, never moaning, never crying out, never complaining; how much of that can someone look at and NOT begin to wonder, "eh, doesn't seem so bad."
I mean, the guy just hangs up there, hour after hour, week after week, year after year, never moaning, never crying out, never complaining; how much of that can someone look at and NOT begin to wonder, "eh, doesn't seem so bad."
27
This serves as one of those reminders, something the last administration taught us (or some of us, at least), that the United States is not immune to moral decay, that the atrocities of the Third Reich can happen here and worse unless we stand vigil and take action as we watch it happen.
I'm with Andrew Sullivan by letting the instigators of our policies walk without accountability, we send the international message that respect of the Geneva convention is optional.
See his opinion: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/th…
Regarding the popularity of torture in the pews: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/th…
Myself, considering how much Matthew 7:12 is hammered into our heads, I don't know how torture advocates can sleep at night.
Kudos to Dan for introducing me to Mr. Sullivan's blog.
I'm with Andrew Sullivan by letting the instigators of our policies walk without accountability, we send the international message that respect of the Geneva convention is optional.
See his opinion: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/th…
Regarding the popularity of torture in the pews: http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/th…
Myself, considering how much Matthew 7:12 is hammered into our heads, I don't know how torture advocates can sleep at night.
Kudos to Dan for introducing me to Mr. Sullivan's blog.
28
@27:
My guess is that for many people Matthew 7:12 implies that other people should first do unto them as they would like to be done unto themselves; then they can reciprocate.
My guess is that for many people Matthew 7:12 implies that other people should first do unto them as they would like to be done unto themselves; then they can reciprocate.
29
I think Evangelical Christianity has a similar problem to Islam. People point to Islam's shameful treatment of women and think that's a result of the faith. It isn't, it's a result of the chauvinistic culture in the middle East that has become intertwined with the perception of Islam. In the same way, Southern American culture with its jingoism has become intertwined with Evangelical Christianity.
30
Did anyone else hear Terry Gross interview with New York Times reporter Scott Shane about the torture memos?
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story…
There was some discussion about the origins of the US program, how it evolved from the Chinese use of torture to force false connections from US soldiers, the subsequent training of US soldiers to resist certain torture techniques. The question was raised, was this the real goal of the Bush administration, to force false confessions from high value detainees about a link between Iraq and Al Qaeda?
The most amazing part .all those involved claim not to know the origins of the SERE program and its involvement with the CIA, and its goal of preventing false confessions from US solders. That these specific torture techniques, learned from the Chinese, are used to gain false confessions.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story…
There was some discussion about the origins of the US program, how it evolved from the Chinese use of torture to force false connections from US soldiers, the subsequent training of US soldiers to resist certain torture techniques. The question was raised, was this the real goal of the Bush administration, to force false confessions from high value detainees about a link between Iraq and Al Qaeda?
The most amazing part .all those involved claim not to know the origins of the SERE program and its involvement with the CIA, and its goal of preventing false confessions from US solders. That these specific torture techniques, learned from the Chinese, are used to gain false confessions.
33
Didn't Jesus beat up the money changers at the temple?
Mark 11:1519, 11:2733, Matthew 21:1217, 21:2327 and Luke 19:4548, 20:18, John 2:1225
Just sayin'
Mark 11:1519, 11:2733, Matthew 21:1217, 21:2327 and Luke 19:4548, 20:18, John 2:1225
Just sayin'
34
@33,
Those verses said he made a whip, he scattered coins, he flipped over tables, he drove the money changers from the temple courts, but those verses do not say he hit anyone, or beat up the money changers.
I don't think these verses justify the use of torture. On a side note. I did here Ann Coulter say that they were her favorite verses.
Those verses said he made a whip, he scattered coins, he flipped over tables, he drove the money changers from the temple courts, but those verses do not say he hit anyone, or beat up the money changers.
I don't think these verses justify the use of torture. On a side note. I did here Ann Coulter say that they were her favorite verses.
37
My Strat isn't that old, but I'm enjoying the Jeff Beck tone I'm getting out it. I've never had the pleasure of playing the Gibson SG. I did try a Gretsch 6120 recently and really enjoyed it.
Do you slide, too?
Do you slide, too?
38
Funny story: Neil Young once let me play his "famous" white Gretsch (he even has a name for it, though I forget what it was). Worst fucking action on any guitar I've ever played in my life. Seriously, once you try to play that thing, you have new understanding of why his playing style is so fucking spastic. But that's just one guitar, and was a long time ago. Maybe they've gotten better since then.
I've "fooled around" with slide, but it's not really my thing. I guess my theory of rock music can pretty much be summed up this way: The Rolling Stones made a 50-year, very lucrative career out of never using more than three bar-chords, why the fuck do I need to get any more complicated than that?
I've "fooled around" with slide, but it's not really my thing. I guess my theory of rock music can pretty much be summed up this way: The Rolling Stones made a 50-year, very lucrative career out of never using more than three bar-chords, why the fuck do I need to get any more complicated than that?
39
I'm new to slide, a little Allman Brothers Band, and not great at it. Still, I like the sound.
I enjoy playing the blues. I spend too much time messing around with the pentatonic scale and it's modes.
I like your theory of rock music, simple can be sublime.
I enjoy playing the blues. I spend too much time messing around with the pentatonic scale and it's modes.
I like your theory of rock music, simple can be sublime.
40
Christ does not save anyone. We are all doomed to die. There is no proof that him save us. As there is no proof that we are creations of him. Why a god needed to make something (like humans) only for later to save them? Is it like to me to make something wrong and later see what happend (such a wrong exist) an need to correct it. A real god dosen't need his childrens to correct his mistakes.
Not only Evangelicals love suffering every christian and even other religious people love suffering. Why we need a god? To load him with our hate and wars? Is our intentions and our emotions ours ideocatalepsy to beleive in lies from every crazy idiot presented themself as a godsend, not gods! *Humans* portray as gods, *humans* say words as to be gods, *not god*. There is not even one human to see or to hear god. God dosen't need to hide up in the skys. I mean, come on, what is a god, some ufo hiding in the invisible?
"Their god is angry and vengeful, and the more people suffer, the happier the evangelicals are." They talking ONLY for themselfs. Don't put your words to the mouth of god. God, any real god, doesn't need human emotions to express. A human maybe is angry, not a god. Is a completely different thing. Fish and humans swim but boats does not. Boats floats. For the animals, we are like gods. We can manipulate them easily at no cost. And at the end *we* are haveing profit, not them. For them we have stables, dogs to keep safe from other animals, and other constructions. And them maybe believe in those constructions and those crappy relations and doesn't escape. Think about that, twise.
Not only Evangelicals love suffering every christian and even other religious people love suffering. Why we need a god? To load him with our hate and wars? Is our intentions and our emotions ours ideocatalepsy to beleive in lies from every crazy idiot presented themself as a godsend, not gods! *Humans* portray as gods, *humans* say words as to be gods, *not god*. There is not even one human to see or to hear god. God dosen't need to hide up in the skys. I mean, come on, what is a god, some ufo hiding in the invisible?
"Their god is angry and vengeful, and the more people suffer, the happier the evangelicals are." They talking ONLY for themselfs. Don't put your words to the mouth of god. God, any real god, doesn't need human emotions to express. A human maybe is angry, not a god. Is a completely different thing. Fish and humans swim but boats does not. Boats floats. For the animals, we are like gods. We can manipulate them easily at no cost. And at the end *we* are haveing profit, not them. For them we have stables, dogs to keep safe from other animals, and other constructions. And them maybe believe in those constructions and those crappy relations and doesn't escape. Think about that, twise.
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