Find Your Valentine
Slog
News & ArtsThursday, April 30, 2009
4
Thanks Dan. It is pretty clear that not only does buying pig, bird, and cow carcasses from supermarkets and restaurants like Smith cause bird and pig flu outbreaks, but it also shortens the lives of people and their children by about 7 years on average due to increases in diseases, like heart disease, several cancers, diabetes, strokes, and obesity.
It's very unfortunate that social conservatives fail to act on these facts and continue to eat dead bodies. Do corpse-eaters just like killing people? Or are they just ignorant?
It's very unfortunate that social conservatives fail to act on these facts and continue to eat dead bodies. Do corpse-eaters just like killing people? Or are they just ignorant?
5
Stop it now is personally responsible for increasing meat consumption among Slog readers by 27.9%. I know I'm seeking out some tasty pork today just because of her.
7
#5, Oh, you just like killing people. Thanks for the answer. Follow-up question: can you sleep at night or are you a sociopath?
10
I like the idea that combines are part of the evil. I look forward to Year Zero when we are all sent out into the fields to thresh by hand. Sure most of will starve, but we'll stick it to those evil Corporations right in the shorts!
11
@8: he's not really back. He just shows up when the situation is really dire and the SLOG is chock full of fail, as with this thread.
12
@4 - is actually making me reconsider my own veganism . . . please take your own advice, and stop (now) making us look like morons.
13
Michael Pollan has written a couple of books (and two of his students did a related documentary) about this very thing--probably way more informative; you also don't get the John Williams-style soundtrack in the background telling you to feel foreboding then.
This little video blurb would also have been more effective if they had used *no* doctored images of industrial farming. Because, really, there is no need to use the digital pastiche they created for some of the scenes--the real thing is plenty disturbing. Plus, it undermines your credibility when you mix authentic footage with digitally created or "enhanced" footage.
This little video blurb would also have been more effective if they had used *no* doctored images of industrial farming. Because, really, there is no need to use the digital pastiche they created for some of the scenes--the real thing is plenty disturbing. Plus, it undermines your credibility when you mix authentic footage with digitally created or "enhanced" footage.
16
4, Perhaps you missed the parts that talked about vegetables, and grains from factory farms? Really, your selective hearing is as bad as your selective morals.
19
I watched the video. It spoke about tomatoes, and showed combines harvesting grain. Meat was in there too, but not as a condemnation of meat, but of factory farming. Do you not comprehend what you see and hear?
20
@10 - Sven, that was what I noticed too. So, combines are bad now? I mean, I know that image was supposed to connote huge corporate farms, but... I'm pretty sure combines are an example of good efficiency in farming, as opposed to bad efficiency (e.g., factory farming animals).
21
As a trailer: way too slow. I'm tempted to say, Where's the Beef? Listen filmmakers, don't put yer damn credits in the trailer unless I've herd of you before. Herd! Gimme some shocking facts and some gross images and go the fuck away. This trailer tells me the movie is pretty, but boring.
Here watch: A conspiracy of multinationals! Enslaved workers! Poop burgers!... Takes 10 secs.
Here watch: A conspiracy of multinationals! Enslaved workers! Poop burgers!... Takes 10 secs.
22
#16, Yes, I watched the video and am informed about nutrition and food harvesting issues. I must have missed the new information about how pig and bird flus are caused by grains. Yes, factory farming of vegetables and legumes and grains have their own issues, but causing pandemic bird and pig flu and being by far the #1 preventable cause of early death are not among them. Only the consumption of animal carcasses takes that honor.
24
@20: thank you. I'm glad I'm not the only one who had that reaction. They even put smokestacks in the background, to beat us over the head with the idea. Having spent many, many days driving the backroads of MN, IA, WI, and SD, combines to me are nothing short of miraculous. Plants go in, food comes out.
And of course, when they have to harvest they have to harvest. Ever see three combines working a field in the middle of the night, with the offloading trucks buzzing between them? Pure magic.
And of course, when they have to harvest they have to harvest. Ever see three combines working a field in the middle of the night, with the offloading trucks buzzing between them? Pure magic.
25
I'd think Schlosser was a pretty recognizable name by now. Hasn't everyone read Fast Food nation by now? Or Reefer Madness? He's a beautiful writer.
26
Looks really great, I love movies like this...I probably won't be able to shop at a grochery store after it though
27
The ethical, medical and environmental reasons for reducing meat consumption are blatantly obvious, I'm sure even Mr. Fnarf/Poe are aware of them. But apparently a vegetarian diet is too much of a personal sacrifice for most people, after all I think bacon is in our constitution, right after SUV's.
29
Let's just face it folks - food is gross. Eating is gross. Doesn't matter if it was raised in a corporate feed lot or delicately hand fed and then snuffed with a sharp axe. Same thing with non-meat foods. Was it covered in pesticides and artificial fertilyzer, or grown in a big pile of poop and rotten organic matter? Either way, totally gross. If you think about it too much, you'll starve.
I've totally lost my appetite just writing this.
I've totally lost my appetite just writing this.
30
@25,
Fast food nation is an awesome book! Schlosser really can write.
That said, I like reading about this stuff rather than seeing it on film. Fast food nation: the movie, sucked. Supersize me was great, but there was no book version so I can't compare.
Fast food nation is an awesome book! Schlosser really can write.
That said, I like reading about this stuff rather than seeing it on film. Fast food nation: the movie, sucked. Supersize me was great, but there was no book version so I can't compare.
31
"Stop it Now" is annoying but correct. Meat eaters are in denial of the fact that factory farms are destroying the planet. And the only way to stop this is to stop eating meat. That means everyone. Sorry, carnivores.
32
Look, @22, your constant use of "corpses" and "carcasses" only makes you sound unhinged and makes people stop listening. We can agree that animal consumption causes problems, right? And that it should be reduced, yes? So if you want to achieve that goal, why do you continue to use rhetoric that undermines your own credibility? It actually numbs people to the severity of the problem. It makes them stop listening. You can't change people's minds by insulting them!
So if you really care about this problem, please reconsider the way you talk about it. You can't educate people who aren't listening.
Does this make sense to you?
So if you really care about this problem, please reconsider the way you talk about it. You can't educate people who aren't listening.
Does this make sense to you?
34
31, what if i eat meat from a small family farm? is that ok with you?? please, please bless me with your permission.
35
@31, you are wrong. It is not necessary, nor is it at all realistic, for everyone to stop eating meat now. Reducing meat consumption is a good idea, and shouldn't be that difficult. If you eat meat twice a day, try eating it only once a day. If you eat it every day, try having a couple of days meat-free. Replace the meat with good healthy food, and you'll lose some weight and make your heart happy. Plus, you'll be reducing land, water and pesticide use.
It's not that eating meat is so bad, it's that people eat waaay too much of it. Improvement is possible, but calling for drastic measures is just a waste of time.
It's not that eating meat is so bad, it's that people eat waaay too much of it. Improvement is possible, but calling for drastic measures is just a waste of time.
36
Irena #32, yes, it makes sense. However, I'm trying to give people facts. If people are eating dog or bird or pig carcasses, why should I use the corpse industry's euphemisms to refer to their products? I'm not trying to boost their sales and kill even more people.
The FDA regulates what products are called on labels, and have been influenced by literally hundreds of millions of dollars from corpse harvesters. If the FDA had consumers' interests in mind, labels on bacon and pork would read "PIG CARCASS" and have a warning that eating the corpse is as dangerous or possibly more dangerous than smoking.
The FDA regulates what products are called on labels, and have been influenced by literally hundreds of millions of dollars from corpse harvesters. If the FDA had consumers' interests in mind, labels on bacon and pork would read "PIG CARCASS" and have a warning that eating the corpse is as dangerous or possibly more dangerous than smoking.
37
What would happen to the worldwide consumption of resources if life expectancies rose to 97 years?
38
How long until this thread devolves into the "I'm gonna have kitten stew tonight with a side of cow heart"-type backlash?
39
@21 - I had to go the original towleroad post to figure out what I was viewing, but it's not a trailer; it's the first 3 minutes of the movie. Hence the credits.
40
#35, Like the video said, diets have changed completely from a generation or two ago. It's not unreasonable that in 1 or 2 generations nobody but the most isolated and socially conservative Americans will eat animal carcasses.
41
35, Very sensible. You have to understand, they want people to stop eating meat, not for environmental reasons, not for health reasons, not because of the flu, but because they feel it's morally wrong to eat meat. They want to force their world view on everyone. They are like anti abortion, and anti gay marriage folks. We meat eaters are like the gay rights folks, we just want to eat who, er, I mean what we want, and others can eat what they want.
42
@35
I do not know how much consumption would need to decline to stop factory farming, but I'm assuming it would need to be more than just cutting back on a few servings of meat a week.
Also, I dont really consider it a drastic measure. I stopped eating meat and it honestly wasnt that difficut. It's a lifestyle change, like making the decision to exercise or cutting out junk food from your diet. It might be hard at first, but so are all lifestyle changes.
I do not know how much consumption would need to decline to stop factory farming, but I'm assuming it would need to be more than just cutting back on a few servings of meat a week.
Also, I dont really consider it a drastic measure. I stopped eating meat and it honestly wasnt that difficut. It's a lifestyle change, like making the decision to exercise or cutting out junk food from your diet. It might be hard at first, but so are all lifestyle changes.
43
Stop it now, I can't stop thinking about you licking bacon grease off my penis. Please tell me you're not underage. I'd hate to have you switch to canola oil.
45
@34 I share your question. I do eat less meat now, and I have become very selective about where I get it from.
But that's never going to be enough for Stop It Now and the other trolls. Folks like them get off on condemnation and judgmental attitudes as much as anything else. Irena @35 has the better, rational approach.
But that's never going to be enough for Stop It Now and the other trolls. Folks like them get off on condemnation and judgmental attitudes as much as anything else. Irena @35 has the better, rational approach.
47
Rob, if gay marriage caused gay marriage flu that threatened to cause a deadly pandemic, I would agree with you. That is not the case, however. Your carcass-eating actions are threatening me and every other member of the human race. Please stop.
We meat eaters are like the gay rights folks, we just want to eat who, er, I mean what we want, and others can eat what they want.
Rob, if gay marriage caused gay marriage flu that threatened to cause a deadly pandemic, I would agree with you. That is not the case, however. Your carcass-eating actions are threatening me and every other member of the human race. Please stop.
48
@34 I share your question. I do eat less meat now, and I have become very selective about where I get it from.
But that's never going to be enough for Stop It Now and the other trolls. Folks like them get off on condemnation and judgmental attitudes as much as anything else. Irena @35 has the better, rational approach.
But that's never going to be enough for Stop It Now and the other trolls. Folks like them get off on condemnation and judgmental attitudes as much as anything else. Irena @35 has the better, rational approach.
49
#45, You are condemning and judging me as well. The difference is: I am not threatening to infect and kill you with pig flu or bird flu through my actions.
51
47, No, you just feel it's immoral to kill animals for food. You're just using the flu thing like anti gay marriage people use the "It'll hurt straight marriage, and children" excuse to protest against gay marriage. I would at least respect you if you would be the least bit honest, but you'd rather play these games to push your anti-meat agenda.
53
My personal conviction, is buy local. I prefer not to consume tomatoes, etc. out of season, because they don't taste right. Meat, fish and poultry is minimal, and locally raised as well. Same goes for wine and beer, but I confess there is no locally produced whiskey in my house.
54
@49 I'm not threatening to kill you, period. The fact that you accuse all of us of doing so because you have a moral qualms with eating meat is indicative of YOUR judgmental attitude. Now if you'll excuse me, I think I've fed you enough for one day.
55
If you don't like meat, then don't eat it. The vegans here with their extremist conservative agenda of "No Meat" are just like the idiots who cry and scream against abortion.
56
I love food and I love eating. I celebrate that fact that we are creatures who can consume wonderful foods of all kinds. For those paranoid anorexic folks out there you can always try:
http://skepdic.com/inedia.html
Go Omnivore!
http://skepdic.com/inedia.html
Go Omnivore!
57
@42: But see, it depends on how many people you can convince to cut back on a few servings per week. If you present a reasonable argument for cutting back -- without alienating or insulting people -- more people will see it as a sensible move. You want to convince a majority of people, right? You won't do that if you keep insisting that it's got to be all or nothing. People will just shut you out. Animal-rights activists have been doing this for decades, and it hasn't worked.
Yeah, some individuals don't find going vegetarian hard, but convincing a majority of Americans to do it? Good luck! It's just a waste of time. You're much better off persuading people -- with facts, not with loaded words -- that our current eating habits use up too much water, too much land, and too many pesticides. Convincing lots of people to make small changes will have a bigger impact than convincing a few people to go completely vegetarian.
Yeah, some individuals don't find going vegetarian hard, but convincing a majority of Americans to do it? Good luck! It's just a waste of time. You're much better off persuading people -- with facts, not with loaded words -- that our current eating habits use up too much water, too much land, and too many pesticides. Convincing lots of people to make small changes will have a bigger impact than convincing a few people to go completely vegetarian.
59
I'm not a vegan. I have only environmental concerns about eating fish, and environmental/health concerns about dairy, but they are nothing compared to the dangers to all of humanity caused by people eating mammal and bird carcasses.
Where did you get the idea that I'm a radical animal rights activist? Go ahead and run over all the possums you want and pour gasoline on ant hills. I think it's stupid, but I care about HUMANS. Eating the corpses of animals threatens HUMANS, including children and the millions of us who eat healthy corpse-free diets.
Where did you get the idea that I'm a radical animal rights activist? Go ahead and run over all the possums you want and pour gasoline on ant hills. I think it's stupid, but I care about HUMANS. Eating the corpses of animals threatens HUMANS, including children and the millions of us who eat healthy corpse-free diets.
60
@4: Hate to break it to you, but social conservatives are hardly the only meat-eaters out there. Your biases are showing.
61
#60: People who eat animal carcasses are, by definition, social conservatives. What is more socially conservative than killing yourself and others through your diet, just because that's what your ancestors ate?
62
And Stop it now @36, you are not giving people facts. A word is not a fact. Those words have strong connotations that offend people and make them stop listening to you. Like it or not, it's true. Using words like "carcass" does not come across as honesty, it comes across as manipulation. I know it feels good and right for you to use those words. I'm just saying, it doesn't work.
Look, I care about this issue too -- not just animal cruelty, but more importantly, the health of the planet and the future of all the life on it. Don't use words that make you feel good at the expense of destroying your credibility when so much is at stake.
Look, I care about this issue too -- not just animal cruelty, but more importantly, the health of the planet and the future of all the life on it. Don't use words that make you feel good at the expense of destroying your credibility when so much is at stake.
63
#62: Sorry if you feel I am hurting your causes. I am not part of any organized cause and didn't get any memos about what terms to use, I just feel strongly that people need to stop eating "meat" because it is cruel to other humans. If I use the term "pig carcass" instead of "Tyson Fun-time Porkballs" or whatever to refer to pig carcasses, I fail to see any dishonesty or manipulation.
65
Let's face it folks "animal carcasses" taste good.
If folks like "Stop it now" choose not to eat meat that's cool with me. I however will not eat one less hamburger or fried chicken leg merely because others find it gross or immoral. Just eat a balanced diet that includes meat, grains, veggies, fruits, sweets and of course excerise. Just take the food police with a big grain of salt and don't even bother to humor them.
If folks like "Stop it now" choose not to eat meat that's cool with me. I however will not eat one less hamburger or fried chicken leg merely because others find it gross or immoral. Just eat a balanced diet that includes meat, grains, veggies, fruits, sweets and of course excerise. Just take the food police with a big grain of salt and don't even bother to humor them.
66
#61
What is more socially conservative than to impose your beliefs on other people and tell them what they can and cannot eat - kind of a dietary taliban if you will.
What is more socially conservative than to impose your beliefs on other people and tell them what they can and cannot eat - kind of a dietary taliban if you will.
67
#66, I'm not passing laws or forcing you to do anything. You, however, are forcing disease and environmental destruction upon other people, including myself.
68
57-
I'm not trying to alienate or insult. Though I do think we have come to a time where meat eaters need to be held accountable for what factory farming is doing to the planet.
I agree that convincing people to cutback on meat consumption is a great starting point. But in reality we are going to need a lot of people going veg to stop factory farming.
I'm not trying to alienate or insult. Though I do think we have come to a time where meat eaters need to be held accountable for what factory farming is doing to the planet.
I agree that convincing people to cutback on meat consumption is a great starting point. But in reality we are going to need a lot of people going veg to stop factory farming.
69
@67: not fast enough. Insofar as you are still alive, swine flu must be considered a failure.
It's interesting how you believe that factory farms in the US caused swine flu in Mexico. Why don't you go down there and explain the dangers of carcasses to them? I'm sure they're dying to hear all about it.
It's interesting how you believe that factory farms in the US caused swine flu in Mexico. Why don't you go down there and explain the dangers of carcasses to them? I'm sure they're dying to hear all about it.
70
Well stop it now, you should be fine with the fact that I get my meat from a small local farm, (I get the meat the same day it's killed, and it tastes so much better.) and not a factory farm, right?
68, then you'll just get more factory farming of vegetables, and grains and with chemicals fertilizers and pesticides. People will need to eat a lot more veggies to make up for the loss of meat in their diets.
68, then you'll just get more factory farming of vegetables, and grains and with chemicals fertilizers and pesticides. People will need to eat a lot more veggies to make up for the loss of meat in their diets.
71
There is so much judgementalism and snark on both sides of this issue, it's really hard to remember where our common ground is. I for one am so glad that this hugely important, planetary topic is finally being DISCUSSED in the semi-mainstream media and I have to trust that the more the facts are discussed in as respectful a way as possible, the more people will want to make rational, sane choices about what they put into their mouths ;) and I mean for nutritional purposes. Here's to honest discussion! Here's to reason! Thanks for posting this Dan, even though clearly there is PLENTY of defensiveness on all sides of the issue! We all feel passionately about our point of view. We can get past it if we step back a little and find out where our common interests lie.
72
FYI, ROb in Baltimore, there is a huge loss in caloric value in the production of meat, so in fact fewer grains are required when you skip that calorie step.
73
72, Again, you will need to factory farm a lot more vegetables and grains, to make up for the loss of meat in the diet. And if were not getting cheap fertilizer from farm animals, chemical fertilizers will have to be massed produced and used, driving up food costs astronomically,
74
#69, I'm not only discussing issues within our borders. It's just chance that this pig flu outbreak came from Mexico and not the US. Smithfield Farms, the company that runs the suspected source of this pig flu, is based in the US.
#70, What #72 said. Also, pesticides and fertilizers have environmental/health issues, but they are nothing compared to the dangers to humanity caused by carcass harvesting (including from small farms).
#70, What #72 said. Also, pesticides and fertilizers have environmental/health issues, but they are nothing compared to the dangers to humanity caused by carcass harvesting (including from small farms).
75
#73: I don't think you understood what #72 said. It takes 16 pounds of vegetation and 2500 gallons of water to produce 1 pound of cow carcass. When people stop eating animal corpses, we will need to factory farm a lot LESS vegetables and grains.
76
doesn't anyone here actually have a job?!
who are you people that you can sit around all day and have "comment wars" on slog?
(personally i'm imagining grossly overweight assholes who sit collecting disability because they are "disabled" by their immense size, wiping their greasy fucking fingers on their shirt because they scarfed down a bucket of KFC... that's what i'm imagining anyways)
who are you people that you can sit around all day and have "comment wars" on slog?
(personally i'm imagining grossly overweight assholes who sit collecting disability because they are "disabled" by their immense size, wiping their greasy fucking fingers on their shirt because they scarfed down a bucket of KFC... that's what i'm imagining anyways)
77
I consider myself pretty aware of the issues this movie tackles, but the computer enhanced part is pretty cheesy and unnecessary. It reminds me of the "Gathering Storm" video, with the combines, evil corporate business men walking through a wheat field, toward the capitol with smoke stacks pouring pollution into fast moving storm clouds. I agree with Big Sven about the combines, what is so evil about having efficient farming practices. Even smaller organic farms use combines, and lots of other machinery when they can. It is 2009, not 1809.
78
Stop It Now: Exposure to livestock-generated parasites and viruses is the number one predictor of a human populations success when conacting a population not-so-much exposed.
now is a good time to give gratitude to your meat-and-death choking-down bretheren, keeping you and yours safe.
oh wait, you ARE that population.
Sorry, off the the Veggie Detainment Zone with you!
shoo! scat!
now is a good time to give gratitude to your meat-and-death choking-down bretheren, keeping you and yours safe.
oh wait, you ARE that population.
Sorry, off the the Veggie Detainment Zone with you!
shoo! scat!
79
@74
"discussing" bullshit, you are advocating in a very shrill voice, to force people to eat only a diet that YOU approve of.
"discussing" bullshit, you are advocating in a very shrill voice, to force people to eat only a diet that YOU approve of.
80
@68: So you want revenge? Fine. Rage against the machine all you want, dude. It's not going to change a thing.
What I would like is for people like @65 to see that eating a little less meat could make a difference to the planet his/her children and grandchildren will grow up on. Your strategy, unfortunately, will only contribute to that person's apathy.
And by the way, I don't belong to any "organized cause". This is not a fucking war. I don't think anyone needs to be punished. I would like to see more people do what they can to solve the problems this world faces, that's all.
What I would like is for people like @65 to see that eating a little less meat could make a difference to the planet his/her children and grandchildren will grow up on. Your strategy, unfortunately, will only contribute to that person's apathy.
And by the way, I don't belong to any "organized cause". This is not a fucking war. I don't think anyone needs to be punished. I would like to see more people do what they can to solve the problems this world faces, that's all.
81
#73, Respectfully, your facts are in error. More grains are required to create a pound of meat than you actually receive from that pound of meat, ergo, more grains are produced in the process of making it than if you eat the grains directly. It's a law of thermodynamics, seriously. And recent studies (in the last five years) have shown that organic farms remain MORE productive over time than factory farms, due to loss of topsoil and fertility in industrial agricultural practices. Which means that industrial ag loses any of the supposed crop gains and then some, after several years of applying chemicals to the land.
82
#79, Yes, you are correct that I am being shrill. Stop eating a corpse-based diet that forces harm upon me and other innocent children and adults, and I will stop being shrill. Being shrill is not "forcing" you to do anything. If you insist on being a cruel person, I cannot stop you.
83
...Your daily fear mongering brought to by all the listed in the video.
I know food production (slaughter) ain't pretty, but it is necessary, and makes for tasty meat.
I'm not nit pick the whole video, because there is much point.
But as for Stop It Now saying that eating meat is cause people to die early...
Wasn't there a time when a forty year old person was tough to come by?
I know food production (slaughter) ain't pretty, but it is necessary, and makes for tasty meat.
I'm not nit pick the whole video, because there is much point.
But as for Stop It Now saying that eating meat is cause people to die early...
Wasn't there a time when a forty year old person was tough to come by?
84
Yeah, meat-eaters spread the swine flu!
From now on I'm going to eat nothing but safe foods, like tomatoes, and spinach. When was the last time you heard of those spreading disease?
From now on I'm going to eat nothing but safe foods, like tomatoes, and spinach. When was the last time you heard of those spreading disease?
86
Gee, one of the most commented-upon threads, and it's mostly one vegan activist and a ton of vegan baiters?
87
I meant CALORIES, not grains, in the first part of my statement about energy conversions, although grains are the calories in question, as it pertains to a discussion about inputs vs, outputs. Just so no one feels they have to jump up and correct my syntax.
88
I eat Vegans -- does that count, since I don't contribute to the demand for factory farmed products?
89
Stop it now -
"...shrill.." is not a good thing - basically it means you are not making a logical or clear argument and what you are saying is being said in a way that turns people off. In other words the more that you say in this manner the worse you lose your argument while people turn off and just think that you are fucking nuts.
I believe that was BACON's point.
"...shrill.." is not a good thing - basically it means you are not making a logical or clear argument and what you are saying is being said in a way that turns people off. In other words the more that you say in this manner the worse you lose your argument while people turn off and just think that you are fucking nuts.
I believe that was BACON's point.
91
They spread disease, but the cause of the disease is almost always animal harvesting. The recent spinach outbreak was caused by animal harvesting (E.coli is always caused by animals). The recent tomato outbreak was caused by animal harvesting (Salmonella is always caused by animals).
http://www.cdc.gov/nczved/dfbmd/disease_…
http://www.cdc.gov/nczved/dfbmd/disease_…
PS Like I said, I'm not vegan, or an activist.
From now on I'm going to eat nothing but safe foods, like tomatoes, and spinach. When was the last time you heard of those spreading disease?
They spread disease, but the cause of the disease is almost always animal harvesting. The recent spinach outbreak was caused by animal harvesting (E.coli is always caused by animals). The recent tomato outbreak was caused by animal harvesting (Salmonella is always caused by animals).
http://www.cdc.gov/nczved/dfbmd/disease_…
http://www.cdc.gov/nczved/dfbmd/disease_…
PS Like I said, I'm not vegan, or an activist.
92
@81: you are ignoring the fact that the grains cattle are designed to eat (grass) are inedible by humans, and in fact cattle (and pigs, goats, chickens) were invented precisely to exploit this fact, and convert inedible plant material into edible animal material. We can't eat grass.
Likewise, the grasses themselves evolved to thrive in an ecosystem where ungulates regularly cropped them off. Look at the bison on the Great Plains for the most obvious example. Without the bison, the grasses can't grow properly. Animal husbandry was developed to take advantage of this coexistence.
What's changed in relatively recent years is feeding cattle not grass but corn (not to mention beef products like tallow, which is still totally legal). This is bad for the cows, bad for the ecosystem, and bad for us. Likewise, replacing the prairie grass with corn or other human-digestible grains was in retrospect a bad idea, and not only because it upsets the ecosystem; it also directly caused the topsoil to blow away the second they plowed it up, and even in the rich soils of places like Iowa the vast quantities of water and fertilizer necessary to grow these crops is destroying those soils, and also causing the polluted water to run down the Mississippi into the Gulf of Mexico, killing every living thing in that body of water for hundreds of square miles.
This is not an argument against meat. It's an argument against certain farm practices.
Likewise, the grasses themselves evolved to thrive in an ecosystem where ungulates regularly cropped them off. Look at the bison on the Great Plains for the most obvious example. Without the bison, the grasses can't grow properly. Animal husbandry was developed to take advantage of this coexistence.
What's changed in relatively recent years is feeding cattle not grass but corn (not to mention beef products like tallow, which is still totally legal). This is bad for the cows, bad for the ecosystem, and bad for us. Likewise, replacing the prairie grass with corn or other human-digestible grains was in retrospect a bad idea, and not only because it upsets the ecosystem; it also directly caused the topsoil to blow away the second they plowed it up, and even in the rich soils of places like Iowa the vast quantities of water and fertilizer necessary to grow these crops is destroying those soils, and also causing the polluted water to run down the Mississippi into the Gulf of Mexico, killing every living thing in that body of water for hundreds of square miles.
This is not an argument against meat. It's an argument against certain farm practices.
93
Matt,
I take issue with being called a vegan-baiter. I am quite serious. More pork for me. On sale, if possible.
I take issue with being called a vegan-baiter. I am quite serious. More pork for me. On sale, if possible.
94
@92
It's an argument against the practices that the vast majority of modern farms use.
I'm a vegan, but I'm actually not at all opposed to eating animals. I'm opposed to factory farming. I'm glad to see the issue getting more attention these days.
It's an argument against the practices that the vast majority of modern farms use.
I'm a vegan, but I'm actually not at all opposed to eating animals. I'm opposed to factory farming. I'm glad to see the issue getting more attention these days.
96
I'm with you, Violet, if I may call you that. I enjoy baiting Stop it now because she's such a shrill, limited, numbskull, but I am capable of serious argument. I'm certainly not a vegan, but I do support responsible meat eating.
97
The phenomenon by which people who are confronted with the fact that something they blithely do in ignorance is bad then go on to caper and wisecrack like imbeciles making light of whomever or whatever has just attempted to enlighten them fascinates me.
What's so wrong with saying, "Wow, I didn't know that. I think I'll rationally re-evaluate my behaviors in light of this new information"? Why the knee-jerk need to mock someone who's attempting to impart a little information on you, probably for your own good? It seems almost universal. What's the advantage? Tell me, evolutionary psychology! (And no, I'm not talking about responding to smug, self-satisfied evangelizers of this or that cause.)
On a number of occasions now, I have spoken of factory meat and the industrial foodsystem with folks I know, impartially and not attempting to persuade. Almost invariably, the response I get is some variation of, "Yeah, but it TASTES SO GOOD HA HA HA heh..." This is always followed by an uncomfortable silence while they look guilty and somehow deliberately forget that they have just chosen to do something that is ethically unsupportable and bad for their health. There is a variation whereby they try to look cool and unapologetic, but it's the same thing, really.
I don't know. People will do some pretty unbearably smug, stupid shit when it comes to facing the prospect of changing the way they live, even in a small way that really wouldn't cost them anything.
Not that that has anything to do with this thread, of course. Oh no.
What's so wrong with saying, "Wow, I didn't know that. I think I'll rationally re-evaluate my behaviors in light of this new information"? Why the knee-jerk need to mock someone who's attempting to impart a little information on you, probably for your own good? It seems almost universal. What's the advantage? Tell me, evolutionary psychology! (And no, I'm not talking about responding to smug, self-satisfied evangelizers of this or that cause.)
On a number of occasions now, I have spoken of factory meat and the industrial foodsystem with folks I know, impartially and not attempting to persuade. Almost invariably, the response I get is some variation of, "Yeah, but it TASTES SO GOOD HA HA HA heh..." This is always followed by an uncomfortable silence while they look guilty and somehow deliberately forget that they have just chosen to do something that is ethically unsupportable and bad for their health. There is a variation whereby they try to look cool and unapologetic, but it's the same thing, really.
I don't know. People will do some pretty unbearably smug, stupid shit when it comes to facing the prospect of changing the way they live, even in a small way that really wouldn't cost them anything.
Not that that has anything to do with this thread, of course. Oh no.
99
Totally agree, balderdash @97. Well said.
I think I read the phenomenon of which you speak has something to do with a species wide neurological inability to intuitively comprehend and forsee harms that don't directly manifest themselves before us.
So where is the finger-on-the-hot stove pain that ought to come from institutionalizing meat gluttony at the expense of health and environmental sanity?
Maybe it's name is H2N2.
I think I read the phenomenon of which you speak has something to do with a species wide neurological inability to intuitively comprehend and forsee harms that don't directly manifest themselves before us.
So where is the finger-on-the-hot stove pain that ought to come from institutionalizing meat gluttony at the expense of health and environmental sanity?
Maybe it's name is H2N2.
100
@97: you're thinking too hard. What's really going on is that people are disagreeing with you, but they're being polite and trying to downplay the disagreement with a joke. But you're too busy gazing into your naval to realize it.
All the current research says that high-carbohydrate diets promote obesity. Your idea that low-meat diets are "obviously" healthier is your attempt to turn your opinions into agreed upon fact. As with the morality argument.
All the current research says that high-carbohydrate diets promote obesity. Your idea that low-meat diets are "obviously" healthier is your attempt to turn your opinions into agreed upon fact. As with the morality argument.
101
@big sven,
No argument that they're disagreeing with me; what I'm remarking on is the fact that they seem to do so even though they don't have a leg to stand on with regard to what we're talking about.
And: "All the current research" meaning the current Atkins-style diet fads? Because what the scientific sort of research is showing is that a diet high in refined carbohydrates promotes obesity and a host of other health problems. If you look a little deeper, you'll find that the studies which take into account the type of carbohydrate-dense foods consumed indicate that it's sugars and refined grains that correlate with health problems.
However, industrial meats also contribute heavily to health problems and to obesity - at least according to the same sorts of research you're citing. High concentrations of saturated fats and omega-6 fatty acids - both nutrients that are perfectly acceptable in moderate quantity - do correlate strongly with heart disease.
My comment was regarding a particular behavioral phenomenon. If you want to talk food science and a healthy diet, well, that's really another issue. I didn't begin to go into it, though I think Michael Pollan summed it up pretty well: "Eat food*. Not too much. Mostly plants**."
* - [processed food is not food]
** - [and of those, mostly leaves]
No argument that they're disagreeing with me; what I'm remarking on is the fact that they seem to do so even though they don't have a leg to stand on with regard to what we're talking about.
And: "All the current research" meaning the current Atkins-style diet fads? Because what the scientific sort of research is showing is that a diet high in refined carbohydrates promotes obesity and a host of other health problems. If you look a little deeper, you'll find that the studies which take into account the type of carbohydrate-dense foods consumed indicate that it's sugars and refined grains that correlate with health problems.
However, industrial meats also contribute heavily to health problems and to obesity - at least according to the same sorts of research you're citing. High concentrations of saturated fats and omega-6 fatty acids - both nutrients that are perfectly acceptable in moderate quantity - do correlate strongly with heart disease.
My comment was regarding a particular behavioral phenomenon. If you want to talk food science and a healthy diet, well, that's really another issue. I didn't begin to go into it, though I think Michael Pollan summed it up pretty well: "Eat food*. Not too much. Mostly plants**."
* - [processed food is not food]
** - [and of those, mostly leaves]
103
@101: I agree with most of your paragraph #2. All things in moderation. Death to HFCS. And for the record, I am not an Atkins fan- I'm a Taubes fan.
104
Big Sven, you have got to be kidding. The recent obesity epidemic is completely, 100% caused by the increased consumption of animal carcasses. 64% of corpse eaters are overweight. Less than 25% of people who don't eat corpses are overweight.
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/20…
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/20…
105
@ 104, can you say "oversimplification"? There are more vegetarians and vegans today than ever, yet there are also more obese people than ever too. It ain't just the meat.
106
Everything in moderation:
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/health/…
From the above Consumer Reports article...
"High fructose corn syrup has become one of the boogeymen of processed foods. The Corn Refiners Association is probably right in noting that it has no known special risk compared to table sugar. While it has been implicated in a rise of Type 2 diabetes, obesity, and other health problems, high-fructose corn syrup and white sugar are almost identical chemically; each is about half fructose and half glucose."
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/health/…
From the above Consumer Reports article...
"High fructose corn syrup has become one of the boogeymen of processed foods. The Corn Refiners Association is probably right in noting that it has no known special risk compared to table sugar. While it has been implicated in a rise of Type 2 diabetes, obesity, and other health problems, high-fructose corn syrup and white sugar are almost identical chemically; each is about half fructose and half glucose."
107
p.s. Whenever I hear somebody begin talk about the "obesity epidemic" I know I am about to be bored to tears.
109
Goddammit, "Stop it now," stop making me look bad by agreeing with me. The "obesity epidemic" is caused by too many easy calories, not by any sort of moral turpitude. Don't try to be on my side, because you aren't. You're a fanatic. Consumption of healthy, pastured meat is a part of This Balanced Breakfast. It's treating living things like assembly-line parts that's the problem, because life is extremely complex and we have a tendency to assume that we fully understand a lot more than we actually do.
111
Sigh.
@104: the article your reference quotes is a literature review (essentially, a fancy google search) done by the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, a vegan advocacy group. Meanwhile, in the world of actual research, low carb diets kick the asses of low fat diets in HDL, LDL, and blood cholesterol and weight loss.
Also, and this is anecdotal I admit, I know just as many fat vegetarians as I do fat omnivores.
@106: if table sugar was the #1 or #2 ingredient in a food, would you consider it "healthy?" HFCS is now far more pervasive in food than cane sugar, due to the govm'ts policy of subsidizing corn production that started in the early 70s. But they both suck, and they're both contributing MASSIVELY to the explosion in the... sorry... obesity epidemic.
Also, fuck the Corn Refiners Association.
@104: the article your reference quotes is a literature review (essentially, a fancy google search) done by the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, a vegan advocacy group. Meanwhile, in the world of actual research, low carb diets kick the asses of low fat diets in HDL, LDL, and blood cholesterol and weight loss.
Also, and this is anecdotal I admit, I know just as many fat vegetarians as I do fat omnivores.
@106: if table sugar was the #1 or #2 ingredient in a food, would you consider it "healthy?" HFCS is now far more pervasive in food than cane sugar, due to the govm'ts policy of subsidizing corn production that started in the early 70s. But they both suck, and they're both contributing MASSIVELY to the explosion in the... sorry... obesity epidemic.
Also, fuck the Corn Refiners Association.
112
The late Julia Child had some wise words about food:
"Food activists spend plenty of time dismissing their opponents as “enemies of public health.” But as we often argue, those claiming to be messengers of the health gods aren’t creating a healthy environment at all. By constantly stigmatizing weight gain, for example, obesity hysteria creates an unhealthy attitude towards eating.
Twenty-year-old Kirsten Haglund understands this first hand. Her road to being crowned Miss America 2008 was not a smooth one. An obsession with weight loss led her to join the ranks of the 11 million Americans suffering from an eating disorder. The Tampa Tribune reports:
The nation's fight against childhood obesity, with its emphasis on losing weight, is having an unintended influence on people with eating disorders, Haglund said.
"There's an entire generation of kids growing up with a fear of fat. Kids don't need to be afraid of food."
The legendary chef Julia Child had a cure for this: Enjoy eating more, and worry about it less. “What’s dangerous and discouraging about this era,” Child said almost thirty years ago, “is that people really are afraid of their food.” She was always a creature of common sense -- exactly what’s missing from today’s contentious food debates"
Above article from a website devoted to dietary choice:
http://www.consumerfreedom.com/index.cfm
@ #111 the reference to the Corn Refiners Assoication is from an article by The Consumers Union. It is just pointing out that there is some unnecessary hysteria and myths about HFCS.
People need to lighten up and stop acting as if food were something to be feared. Let us freely celebrate food once again and tell all of the guilt tripping control freaks to get lost.
More...
"Food activists spend plenty of time dismissing their opponents as “enemies of public health.” But as we often argue, those claiming to be messengers of the health gods aren’t creating a healthy environment at all. By constantly stigmatizing weight gain, for example, obesity hysteria creates an unhealthy attitude towards eating.
Twenty-year-old Kirsten Haglund understands this first hand. Her road to being crowned Miss America 2008 was not a smooth one. An obsession with weight loss led her to join the ranks of the 11 million Americans suffering from an eating disorder. The Tampa Tribune reports:
The nation's fight against childhood obesity, with its emphasis on losing weight, is having an unintended influence on people with eating disorders, Haglund said.
"There's an entire generation of kids growing up with a fear of fat. Kids don't need to be afraid of food."
The legendary chef Julia Child had a cure for this: Enjoy eating more, and worry about it less. “What’s dangerous and discouraging about this era,” Child said almost thirty years ago, “is that people really are afraid of their food.” She was always a creature of common sense -- exactly what’s missing from today’s contentious food debates"
Above article from a website devoted to dietary choice:
http://www.consumerfreedom.com/index.cfm
@ #111 the reference to the Corn Refiners Assoication is from an article by The Consumers Union. It is just pointing out that there is some unnecessary hysteria and myths about HFCS.
People need to lighten up and stop acting as if food were something to be feared. Let us freely celebrate food once again and tell all of the guilt tripping control freaks to get lost.
114
Tonight I had a big fat juicy steak, broiled on the electric broiler, with strips of bacon across it to add to the meatiness.
As a side dish, I had mashed potatoes made with both milk AND chicken broth, and a lovely salad with turkey strips in it.
I would have had meat with desert, but couldn't figure out a way to do it. I settled for ice cream. YUM.
As a side dish, I had mashed potatoes made with both milk AND chicken broth, and a lovely salad with turkey strips in it.
I would have had meat with desert, but couldn't figure out a way to do it. I settled for ice cream. YUM.
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