Slog
News & ArtsWednesday, April 29, 2009
Hetero Today in Traditional Marriage
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 8:09 AM
Married conservative Catholic—married arch-conservative Catholic—Mel Gibson hits the red carpet with his new girlfriend. Jon Gosselin—of "Jon & Kate Plus 8"—was seen leaving a nightclub last night with a woman who wasn't K8. Sean Penn is such a big supporter of same-sex marriage that he's divorcing his opposite-sex wife. And this item ought to worry "defenders" of marriage more than gay Iowans getting married, right?
Do you have problems in your marraige? Do you want to make some $$$$$$$ We need energetic, passionate couples looking to dissolve their marraige. Includes free round-trip airfare to Los Angeles and hotel accomidations.
Gee, I wonder if the American Family Association will have anything to say about a reality show that glamorizes and incentivizes divorce. Airfare to LA! Hotel accomidations!
2
@1: Gosh, Dan, people might mistake you for a topical writer when you should clearly be treating Slog as your own Livejournal.
The Sean Penn news might bring out a flood of creepy fangirls, though. Be prepared for that.
The Sean Penn news might bring out a flood of creepy fangirls, though. Be prepared for that.
3
I knew he was going to leave her when she had to literally GRAB HIM BY THE FACE to make him remember she was sitting next to him when he won the Oscar. She seemed so happy for him, and he just fucking ignored her.
5
Maybe this is off topic but while other stations were talking about Pres. Obama's first one hundred days or the flu, FUX News was going on and on how federal "Hate Crimes" legislation would gag the mouths of preachers. Gee, if only that were true.
7
I understand why Jon would want out. (Have you seen that show? Kate's a bitch. Ok, it's because she has 8 kids and there are strangers with cameras in her house all the time, but having a good reason doesn't make it not true.)
My question is how the hell he got away for long enough to make it happen.
My question is how the hell he got away for long enough to make it happen.
8
Oh waaaaah I'm gay waaaaah I can't get married waaaaah so I'm going to constantly post about how gay I am and also about how some straights have shitty marriages so we gays should be able to have shitty marriages too waaaaah
Q: "Who are you?"
DS: "I'm gay!"
Q: "Who are you?"
DS: "I'm gay!"
9
and of course, gay couples - married or not - never break up. always make lifetime commitments. never cheat on each other. never break the families that they create. never never never never never never never never. to hear you tell it dan, not only should there not be gay marriage - there should no marriages allowed at all - EVER. marriage in general ruins lives. ruins society. corrupts absolutely. so, umm, why is it gay people want so desperately gain this right exactly? i mean if the ultra religious and the super breeders can't make it work, then we shouldn't extend the right, we should abolish it all together. if would make everything so much easier. and people can stop pointing their fingers at other people for being imperfect - i mean human.
10
I especially think the Mel Gibson thing is hilarious. What an awesomely devout Catholic he is...unless it suits him not to be. Then again, this is the same man who went on national tv to deny coining the phrase "sugar tits" and bemoaning the fact that he did not.
PS: Sean Penn is a self righteous prick. I often want to wipe the smug right off of his face. He doesn't seem to get that just because you're all for equal rights doesn't mean you should go around talking about your awesomeness like doing the right thing entitles you to some kind of medal. I call it the Brangelina syndrome (though Penn has had it since before those two made it the hip disease).
PS: Sean Penn is a self righteous prick. I often want to wipe the smug right off of his face. He doesn't seem to get that just because you're all for equal rights doesn't mean you should go around talking about your awesomeness like doing the right thing entitles you to some kind of medal. I call it the Brangelina syndrome (though Penn has had it since before those two made it the hip disease).
12
@9: Oh, that makes it all okay, then! Thanks for clarifying!
We'll return to our Big Gay Mothership now.
We'll return to our Big Gay Mothership now.
13
@9: The point is that the whole "sacred union, handcrafted by God" argument against gay marriage is bs. Of course everyone is human and fallible, gay or straight, it's just the extreme right seem to think,to paraphrase the pigs in Animal Farm that "some are more entitled to equality than others." Since the whole basis of this argument is that heterosexual marriage has some sort of sacrosanct place in our society posting stories that disprove this myth (especially when they involve a-holes like Mad Max) serves as a nice counterpoint to the whole, "gays are trying to ruin our precious and totally not at all fallible institution".
14
@11: "Milk" was not a "gay movie", shithead.
Anyone else think Mel's new fuck buddy looks exactly like Octomom? How's he going to sneak her past JEBUS? Opus Dei's not going to be happy about that.
Anyone else think Mel's new fuck buddy looks exactly like Octomom? How's he going to sneak her past JEBUS? Opus Dei's not going to be happy about that.
15
anyone else notice this in the link? Casting Call:
"Are disagreements over your child's diet and weight causing problems in your marriage?"
WHO would sign up for that? And how'd you like to be THEIR kid?! Fuuuuuuuuuck.
"Are disagreements over your child's diet and weight causing problems in your marriage?"
WHO would sign up for that? And how'd you like to be THEIR kid?! Fuuuuuuuuuck.
16
The 'family' is in great trouble.
And gay marriage has very little to do with it, one way or the other.
Dan's gloating obsession with failed heterosexual relationships and especially the children whose lives are caught up in the carnage is morbid.
Since, by numbers, heterosexuals are the overwhelming majority of society and do all the child bearing and will (with or without gay marriage) do the overwhelming majority of the child rearing we fail to see a rational reason for Dan or anyone to delight in the collapse of the traditional 'family'.
It gives perverse a whole new meaning.
And gay marriage has very little to do with it, one way or the other.
Dan's gloating obsession with failed heterosexual relationships and especially the children whose lives are caught up in the carnage is morbid.
Since, by numbers, heterosexuals are the overwhelming majority of society and do all the child bearing and will (with or without gay marriage) do the overwhelming majority of the child rearing we fail to see a rational reason for Dan or anyone to delight in the collapse of the traditional 'family'.
It gives perverse a whole new meaning.
18
The best news from this post was that Jon from "Jon & Kate plus 8" still has a will to live. I, like @7, wonder how the poor guy got away long enough.
I've only ever seen clips of that show on The Soup, but that show alone could be Exhibit A on how some opposite-sex pairings can be soul-sucking, destructive, and leave (at least) one of the parties feeling powerless and hopeless.
Every time I see him in a clip, I wonder how long before he snaps. Rather hear that he's stepping out than that he committed suicide.
Though that Kate looks like she'd be capable of killing him - if she got the urge to.
I've only ever seen clips of that show on The Soup, but that show alone could be Exhibit A on how some opposite-sex pairings can be soul-sucking, destructive, and leave (at least) one of the parties feeling powerless and hopeless.
Every time I see him in a clip, I wonder how long before he snaps. Rather hear that he's stepping out than that he committed suicide.
Though that Kate looks like she'd be capable of killing him - if she got the urge to.
19
What? Milk was the story of a gay man's life, a gay politician who owed his success to the gay community, who struggled for gay rights and had lots of gay sex while living in the gayest neighborhood in the gayest city in the world. A film made by an openly gay director and written by an openly gay screenwriter. Why is Milk not a "gay movie"?
20
@18, the latest Soup clip, where she natters on about one god damn thing after another at her usual blistering pace, while he sits there perfectly motionless, looking like he's going to explode, for SEVERAL MINUTES, is priceless.
21
16 Right on target girl, I just would take issue with gay marriage not harming and already fragile institution such as marriage cause it really does. It only serves to further erode marriage and to bring it to closer to the goal people like Dan and others here seek for it, it's extermination. The last thing that we need at this moment is to introduce such a nonsensical and unproductive thing such as gay marriage, it just brings nothing to the table to allow this sort of thing.
22
8, Do you not get the irony in you characterizing others as crying for not getting what they want?
You should have signed your post, "Addicted to Dan Savage, 24/7, but am freaking out that I can't get him to post what I want!!! So now I'm forced to read the posts that he decides to write!!!"
I have to admit, that this is one of the many reasons I keep reading slog.
You should have signed your post, "Addicted to Dan Savage, 24/7, but am freaking out that I can't get him to post what I want!!! So now I'm forced to read the posts that he decides to write!!!"
I have to admit, that this is one of the many reasons I keep reading slog.
23
@17
Thank you for you thoughtful response to my post. I appreciate you willingness to share you thoughts with us.
Have a nice day.
Thank you for you thoughtful response to my post. I appreciate you willingness to share you thoughts with us.
Have a nice day.
24
@14
Fnarf, my thoughts exactly on Mad Mel's new woman! I wonder if she has 10 kids too? If she had 10, added to Mad Mel's 7, they'd be on a good run to top the Duggars.
Fnarf, my thoughts exactly on Mad Mel's new woman! I wonder if she has 10 kids too? If she had 10, added to Mad Mel's 7, they'd be on a good run to top the Duggars.
25
23, Maybe your family is broken because you spend too much time worrying about what is written on slog?
27
@23, please shove your nice day up your ass and break it. Do Loveschild first.
Dan is not "delighting" in the collapse of anything. He's merely pointing out hypocrisy. Gay families are supposedly this terrible thing, but straight families collapse too -- suggesting that maybe it's nothing to do with gay or straight. But no one ever says that collapsing straight families are "destroying marriage"; that's reserved only for those awful gays.
It's like divorced Ronald Reagan bleating on about the evils of divorce. It's not the act, it's the hypocrisy, stupid.
And stop calling yourself "we".
Dan is not "delighting" in the collapse of anything. He's merely pointing out hypocrisy. Gay families are supposedly this terrible thing, but straight families collapse too -- suggesting that maybe it's nothing to do with gay or straight. But no one ever says that collapsing straight families are "destroying marriage"; that's reserved only for those awful gays.
It's like divorced Ronald Reagan bleating on about the evils of divorce. It's not the act, it's the hypocrisy, stupid.
And stop calling yourself "we".
28
26, Hi my little sock puppet. You know I'm never going to sleep with you no matter how much you think about me in bed at night, right?
31
@27
You seem a little tense, Fnarf.
Is it because your Mother named you Fnarf?
You should make up with your Mother.
Ask Rob.
You seem a little tense, Fnarf.
Is it because your Mother named you Fnarf?
You should make up with your Mother.
Ask Rob.
32
Emily @16, Dan posts this stuff because he cares about families and kids. He is outraged at the religious right's obsession with gay marriage and its impact on "the family" while crumbling straight marriages--and the devastation they wreak on kids' lives--somehow get a pass.
Take a look at his book The Kid and you'll have a better idea of where he's coming from.
Honestly, you have misread him completely, and you're saying some pretty nasty things -- hardly a "thoughtful response" there.
Take a look at his book The Kid and you'll have a better idea of where he's coming from.
Honestly, you have misread him completely, and you're saying some pretty nasty things -- hardly a "thoughtful response" there.
33
Never mind, Fnarf beat me to it. But seriously, check out Dan's books before you spout off again, okay?
34
@32
Why doesn't Dan ever say anything positive about gay families?
The religious right seems to have nothing on Dan in the 'obsession' department.
Highlighting failed heterosexual families does not make a case for gay marriage.
Why doesn't Dan ever say anything positive about gay families?
The religious right seems to have nothing on Dan in the 'obsession' department.
Highlighting failed heterosexual families does not make a case for gay marriage.
35
Gee, 34, do you think that a lack of media interest in happy gay family stories has anything to do with it? Or maybe the lack of gay families thanks to a) lack of marriage recognition and b) states that ban gay adoption? Maybe those make feel-good stories about gay families a little bit harder to post?
36
Oh, 34, highlighting failed heterosexual families DOES undermine right-wing talking points that gay marriage will "destroy" marriage and the family.
38
@16 - please show examples of Dan gloating over the fate of the children of failed heterosexual marriages. Thanks.
40
38 Umm, Start with this one ->
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
Then search for all of Dan's posts with the same title.
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
Then search for all of Dan's posts with the same title.
43
Loveschild, I'm assuming you haven't actually seen 'Milk', as you appear to be under the impression that you can catch Teh Gay from such a production.
44
Jon- I'd toss him a pity fuck. Wouldn't you? He's cute in a fat-balding-asian-guy kind of way. Only said he was christian to get into her lipo'd pants oh fuck how do I get out of this now everyone's watching kind of way...
46
@35
Are you saying Dan can't, in the whole wide world, find any successful gay 'families'?
If so doesn't it seem risky and unfair to throw children into an unproven proposition?
Are you saying Dan can't, in the whole wide world, find any successful gay 'families'?
If so doesn't it seem risky and unfair to throw children into an unproven proposition?
47
Typical mouth foaming Catholics. Everybody must do as they say, not as they do. Fucking hypocrits. I grew up with them and know them only too well. Narcissism.
48
@45 - The Right's argument seems to be 'Allowing gays to marry will destroy the institution of marriage'. Since they rarely explain what they mean by that (not that they have to, see 'The Power of Ridiculous Reasons' http://dilbert.com/blog/entry/the_power_…), the only reasonable conclusion must be that somehow gay people are less suited or not deserving of marriage. Or, conversely, that straight people must be much better at it. These stories prove that straight marriages are not some perfect ideal.
Similarly, the 'Every Child Deserves a Mother and a Father' stories directly target the idea spouted in the argument that, well, every child deserves a mother and a father. Dan isn't gloating over the children. He has a child of his own. (He's not gloating any more than the anchor on your evening news is gloating over reporting a murder.)
Similarly, the 'Every Child Deserves a Mother and a Father' stories directly target the idea spouted in the argument that, well, every child deserves a mother and a father. Dan isn't gloating over the children. He has a child of his own. (He's not gloating any more than the anchor on your evening news is gloating over reporting a murder.)
49
Emily, my dear, you'll have to take it up with Dan. From what I can tell he just skims the news and finds these articles. My own google search came up negative, so yeah, I think it is hard to find that "one positive story."
Oh wait, no it isn't. He's written books about his own family.
And showing that het families are in trouble on their own demonstrates that gay marriage is not needed to "threaten" the family. That's how that point is undermined.
Thanks, Kim, for your compliment.
Oh wait, no it isn't. He's written books about his own family.
And showing that het families are in trouble on their own demonstrates that gay marriage is not needed to "threaten" the family. That's how that point is undermined.
Thanks, Kim, for your compliment.
50
Oh, and EVERY household is an unproven proposition. Unless you think that all straight couples are clones of one another.
51
Loveschild, one would think you'd be tired of being humiliated all the time here, but if you need your face rubbed in it one more time (maybe you're a perv who gets off on it?), let me do the honors - In neither the example you gave, nor in any other you could produce, will you find that Savage is "gloating" over the fates of the children in those stories. Gloating would be like, "ha ha, fuck those stupid kids." Or, "that's what you get for being straight." Things like that which are not present in any of those postings.
You're welcome.
You're welcome.
53
@48
The anchor reports all the news.
Dan only picks out the depraved and disgusting from all over the world.
It is his fetish.
The anchor reports all the news.
Dan only picks out the depraved and disgusting from all over the world.
It is his fetish.
54
@48 @49
Everyone agrees that the 'family' is in great trouble.
Dan reveals nothing new in his collected stories.
Belaboring the fact that the hetero family is in trouble does not demonstrate that gay marriage is good for society.
Everyone agrees that the 'family' is in great trouble.
Dan reveals nothing new in his collected stories.
Belaboring the fact that the hetero family is in trouble does not demonstrate that gay marriage is good for society.
55
53, And reading about depraved and disgusting things from all over the world must be your fetish? Is that why you come back to Slog, day after day after day?
56
49 Dan does not believe in monogamy. Unfaithfulness is a huge cause of divorce and family breakup, and often leads to children being born outside of families. Does Dan hold himself up as a role model ?
58
@56, Jane
Dan may not believe in monogamy. But I am pretty sure he doesn't believe in cheating either.
It may be hard to understand, but you can be in a loving relationship with someone and NOT be monogamous.
Dan may not believe in monogamy. But I am pretty sure he doesn't believe in cheating either.
It may be hard to understand, but you can be in a loving relationship with someone and NOT be monogamous.
59
57, no, but you do, and you seem to thrive on faux outrage, while getting a little thrill that keeps you coming back for more. Maybe it's time to look inside yourself, instead of blaming others?
60
@54: I know it's hard, because it's so dark in there, but try to wrap your brain around this reasoning:
Dan is not a single-issue whore, pumping out nothing but gay-marriage press releases all day long. He's a leading advocate, perhaps THE leading advocate, for gay families, having written several books on the subject and appearing on numerous television and radio programs to talk about them.
One of the ways in which gay families are harmed, in extremely explicit, concrete ways, is in the denial of certain legal benefits of marriage. But that doesn't mean that everything Dan says or does is about the current national obsession with gay marriage. You are doing a disservice to the debate by being obtuse about this.
These stories are not designed to "demonstrate that gay marriage is good for society". That's a DIFFERENT ARGUMENT. These stories are designed to show how the arguments that straight bigots like you and Loveschild use -- gay families harm children, gay marriages are shams -- COULD BE USED against straight couples too, but never are.
When a gay couple splits, it's considered evidence of something. When a straight couple splits, it isn't. Worse, when a gay couple fights like hell to get together, it's considered "harmful to marriage" and "harmful to families", while a straight couple treating their marriage like a dirty sock is, well, hey, these things happen.
It would be nice if hypocritical straight people could stop doing that. No, it doesn't "demonstrate that gay marriage is good for society", but it VERY MUCH DOES demonstrate that the chief argument used against gay families -- not just gay marriages but gay adoption -- is a LOAD OF BULLSHIT. Straight bigots don't think the rules apply to them, that's all.
This is the hypocrisy he's pointing out, which you are too dim to see. But remember, it's not dark in your world naturally; it's your own lack of light that's preventing you from seeing.
More...
Dan is not a single-issue whore, pumping out nothing but gay-marriage press releases all day long. He's a leading advocate, perhaps THE leading advocate, for gay families, having written several books on the subject and appearing on numerous television and radio programs to talk about them.
One of the ways in which gay families are harmed, in extremely explicit, concrete ways, is in the denial of certain legal benefits of marriage. But that doesn't mean that everything Dan says or does is about the current national obsession with gay marriage. You are doing a disservice to the debate by being obtuse about this.
These stories are not designed to "demonstrate that gay marriage is good for society". That's a DIFFERENT ARGUMENT. These stories are designed to show how the arguments that straight bigots like you and Loveschild use -- gay families harm children, gay marriages are shams -- COULD BE USED against straight couples too, but never are.
When a gay couple splits, it's considered evidence of something. When a straight couple splits, it isn't. Worse, when a gay couple fights like hell to get together, it's considered "harmful to marriage" and "harmful to families", while a straight couple treating their marriage like a dirty sock is, well, hey, these things happen.
It would be nice if hypocritical straight people could stop doing that. No, it doesn't "demonstrate that gay marriage is good for society", but it VERY MUCH DOES demonstrate that the chief argument used against gay families -- not just gay marriages but gay adoption -- is a LOAD OF BULLSHIT. Straight bigots don't think the rules apply to them, that's all.
This is the hypocrisy he's pointing out, which you are too dim to see. But remember, it's not dark in your world naturally; it's your own lack of light that's preventing you from seeing.
62
@35
So you are saying Dan can't find any successful gay 'families' in the whole wide world to feature in Slog.
It is risky and unfair to throw children into an unproven proposition- no matter how politically powerful it's proponents may be.
So you are saying Dan can't find any successful gay 'families' in the whole wide world to feature in Slog.
It is risky and unfair to throw children into an unproven proposition- no matter how politically powerful it's proponents may be.
64
63 Rob, you Mom is calling- her anal warts are itchy and she needs you to lick them clean again...
65
The children raised by same-sex couples do as well as those raised by heterosexual couples. Thus, no surprise that Dan's son is normal, healthy and thriving. A healthy family with two dads and a son.
If anyone dislikes the sources, they can take it up with the Journel of Child Development and the Journel of Pediatrics.
>Patterson, C. J. (1992). Children of lesbian and gay parents. Child Development, 63, 1025 -1042.
Reviews research on the personal and social development of children of gay or lesbian parents (CGLP). Beginning with estimates of the numbers of such children, sociocultural, theoretical, and legal reasons for attention to their development are then outlined. In this context, studies on sexual identity, personal development, and social relationships among these children are reviewed. Evidence does not show that the development of CGLP is compromised significantly relative to that among children of heterosexual parents in comparable situations. (PsycINFO Database Record. Copyright © 2002 by the American Psychological Association. All rights reserved.)
>Perrin, E. C., & the Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health. (2002). Technical report: Coparent or second-parent adoption by same-sex parents. Pediatrics, 109, 341-344.
A growing body of scientific literature demonstrates that children who grow up with one or two gay and/or lesbian parents fare as well in emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as do children whose parents are heterosexual. Children's optimal development seems to be influenced more by the nature of the relationships and interactions within the family unit than by the particular structural form it takes. (PsycINFO Database Record. Copyright © 2002 by the American Psychological Association. All rights reserved.)
More...
If anyone dislikes the sources, they can take it up with the Journel of Child Development and the Journel of Pediatrics.
>Patterson, C. J. (1992). Children of lesbian and gay parents. Child Development, 63, 1025 -1042.
Reviews research on the personal and social development of children of gay or lesbian parents (CGLP). Beginning with estimates of the numbers of such children, sociocultural, theoretical, and legal reasons for attention to their development are then outlined. In this context, studies on sexual identity, personal development, and social relationships among these children are reviewed. Evidence does not show that the development of CGLP is compromised significantly relative to that among children of heterosexual parents in comparable situations. (PsycINFO Database Record. Copyright © 2002 by the American Psychological Association. All rights reserved.)
>Perrin, E. C., & the Committee on Psychosocial Aspects of Child and Family Health. (2002). Technical report: Coparent or second-parent adoption by same-sex parents. Pediatrics, 109, 341-344.
A growing body of scientific literature demonstrates that children who grow up with one or two gay and/or lesbian parents fare as well in emotional, cognitive, social, and sexual functioning as do children whose parents are heterosexual. Children's optimal development seems to be influenced more by the nature of the relationships and interactions within the family unit than by the particular structural form it takes. (PsycINFO Database Record. Copyright © 2002 by the American Psychological Association. All rights reserved.)
66
Emily, are you on drugs? Why did you post the same comment twice?
Everyone else, Emily is a dangerous drug addict. Ignore her rantings.
Everyone else, Emily is a dangerous drug addict. Ignore her rantings.
67
Emily @62: 'families'? As in, not real families? Do you want to be the one to tell these two kids that they don't belong to a real family?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gICtW8b7r…
Do you honestly think it doesn't hurt kids like this that you say such things? Don't you realize that refusing to recognize them as families is, in fact, anti-family?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gICtW8b7r…
Do you honestly think it doesn't hurt kids like this that you say such things? Don't you realize that refusing to recognize them as families is, in fact, anti-family?
68
Emily - You asked for and got a case of a healthy family with gay parents. Isn't that what you are suggesting doesn't exist? Well, such a thing exists. Please make a not of it and update to a new set of tired arguments.
But maybe not this one I see you working with: "It is risky and unfair to throw children into an unproven proposition." I'm really not sure what that means besides that, uh, no one should have kids.
But maybe not this one I see you working with: "It is risky and unfair to throw children into an unproven proposition." I'm really not sure what that means besides that, uh, no one should have kids.
71
As if there existed a proven proposition where marriage is concerned. Heterosexual marriage is only successful half the time. The biggest threat to any marriage is divorce. Seems to me Loveschild's and Emily's respective energies would be better spent fighting divorce.
72
@67
@68
Calm down, girls.
I asked why Dan never features any successful gay families.
Matt said none could be found.
Someone should alert Dan that one has been located.
@68
Calm down, girls.
I asked why Dan never features any successful gay families.
Matt said none could be found.
Someone should alert Dan that one has been located.
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