Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, April 28, 2009
Politics What He Said
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 3:27 PM
...we have a party that seems to be in a death spiral: the smaller [the GOP] gets, the more it’s dominated by the hard right, which makes it even smaller. In the long run, this is not good for American democracy— we really do need two major parties in competition. But I’ll settle for getting that back after we get universal health care and cap-and-trade.
1
"In the long run, this is not good for American democracy— we really do need two major parties in competition."
Another key difference between the right and the left in this country—the former would never acknowledge this.
Another key difference between the right and the left in this country—the former would never acknowledge this.
2
The lack of a real opposition party first bugged me during Geithner's hearings. This man was going to be one of the most powerful in the country, and his competence for the role required serious vetting. I knew the dems would give a pass on whomever Obama nominated. But the republicans, rather than seriously questioning this guy, went all gimmicky and kept pursuing irrelevant tax issues.
Geither has arguably been Obama's biggest failure so far, and I have no problem sharing some of the blame with the GOP.
Geither has arguably been Obama's biggest failure so far, and I have no problem sharing some of the blame with the GOP.
3
At some point, the human inclination towards inceasing singularity is going to have to force us to acknowledge that the concept of competition was a remedial necessity of a divided people.
We're pretty galvanized in the idea that we want shit to stop sucking right now and the crazy thing is there's this party who makes things suck less and people are buying their product.
They should raise the prices.
Wait. Nevermind.
We're pretty galvanized in the idea that we want shit to stop sucking right now and the crazy thing is there's this party who makes things suck less and people are buying their product.
They should raise the prices.
Wait. Nevermind.
4
Read any history of a politically volatile time and place and it quickly becomes apparent the one party systems never last for long. Having more than two parties takes considerable effort and maintenance.
One of two things will happen.
The Republican Party will die the same death all political parties must die at some point, at which point either the Democratic party will split or what was a third party will fill in the power vacuum.
Or the Republicans will figure out what's wrong with their party, fix it, and last another few decades before the next upheaval.
I do find it amusing that the Democratic Party is one of the longest lasting political parties in history, anywhere.
One of two things will happen.
The Republican Party will die the same death all political parties must die at some point, at which point either the Democratic party will split or what was a third party will fill in the power vacuum.
Or the Republicans will figure out what's wrong with their party, fix it, and last another few decades before the next upheaval.
I do find it amusing that the Democratic Party is one of the longest lasting political parties in history, anywhere.
5
Actually, a carbon tax is far more effective than cap and trade, but at least c+t is a step in the right direction.
6
The decline of a political party that does not believe that the constitution applies to the President or Vice-President is hardly a huge blow to democracy.
Krugman is good on ideas, bad on power analysis. The Democrats and Republicans agree more than they disagree on foreign policy, and their main disagreement in domestic politics is over whether to shrink the size of government slowly or quickly. It's the two party system that is bad for democracy, and the way that money dominates electoral politics.
Krugman is good on ideas, bad on power analysis. The Democrats and Republicans agree more than they disagree on foreign policy, and their main disagreement in domestic politics is over whether to shrink the size of government slowly or quickly. It's the two party system that is bad for democracy, and the way that money dominates electoral politics.
7
How about, oh, I don't know, MORE THAN TWO PARTIES? How many times have you voted for the candidate/party that you hated the least?
8
"In the long run, this is not good for American democracy— we really do need two major parties in competition."
Now I hate to sound like Zack De La Rocha here, but Krugman seems to be blind to the fact that the current two party system is a contributing factor to the continuous cluster fuck that is our government.
Our nation is now completely polorized because of the two party system and there is no end in sight for any kind of unity. It's pretty much the Hatfields vs. the McCoys at this point.
I would much prefer a multiple party system or a zero party sytem. Something that would differ from the constant back scratching system that runs our country.
Conspiracy theory of the day: Politicians are all part of a secret society. The society ensures that everybody/every group (currently two) will get turns at the top and the status quo will never be altered. The result: all politicians get rich and they all get their time in the sun.
Now I hate to sound like Zack De La Rocha here, but Krugman seems to be blind to the fact that the current two party system is a contributing factor to the continuous cluster fuck that is our government.
Our nation is now completely polorized because of the two party system and there is no end in sight for any kind of unity. It's pretty much the Hatfields vs. the McCoys at this point.
I would much prefer a multiple party system or a zero party sytem. Something that would differ from the constant back scratching system that runs our country.
Conspiracy theory of the day: Politicians are all part of a secret society. The society ensures that everybody/every group (currently two) will get turns at the top and the status quo will never be altered. The result: all politicians get rich and they all get their time in the sun.
9
The death spiral thing was ripped from Nate Silver. Or Nate ripped it from Krugman. Or I guess it's just how everyone is talking about the current state of the Republican party...
10
The Republicans will be back and the Democrats will help them get there. The D's spent 20 years in the wilderness after the Tip O'neal era, caught up into too many polarizing pet issues and not having an answer to the message of Ronald Regan. They may end up looking like idiots for several years, but don't count them out. The Dems will also find it nearly impossible to stay on top. The R's lost to a well-run grass roots campaign (not something the D's have a great track record for, Obama notwithstanding) and were saddled with the most unpopular president in modern history. These conditions will change.
11
All right, you Naderites @7 & @8 - I'll bite. More than two parties would be a swell idea, but there's a teensy problem with the American system of democracy - rather than have a parliamentary system like they do in Canada, the UK, Germany, Sweden et al, we have a constitutional republic which makes it much harder for minority parties to form a governing coalition, which is what is really necessary in order to make > 2 parties work. What you have in practice in such systems are non-binding coalitions into 2-party systems between elections, whereby the parties negotiate between themselves in order to form a majority in parliament that can pass legislation.
So yeah, I think 3 or more parties is a nice idea, but it brings problems of its own and is not a silver bullet.
So yeah, I think 3 or more parties is a nice idea, but it brings problems of its own and is not a silver bullet.
12
Death spiral? Hah!
A serious grass roots movement began at the tea parties on April 15th that will culminate in a Democrat Party crackup that will make 1994 look like a game of miniature golf.
Liberalism always fails, which is why liberalism always loses.
America will find her way again in 2010, lest there be an armed insurrection against high taxes.
A serious grass roots movement began at the tea parties on April 15th that will culminate in a Democrat Party crackup that will make 1994 look like a game of miniature golf.
Liberalism always fails, which is why liberalism always loses.
America will find her way again in 2010, lest there be an armed insurrection against high taxes.
14
@5: I'l take the word of a Nobe-prize-winning economist over any given slog poster.
Nothing personal.
Nothing personal.
15
Did you guys go back and look at how much Obama won by (popular vote)??....It is literally a HAIR. 69,456,897 to 59,934,814. This is after BUSH, pretty much the best thing we will ever be able to follow.
What does this tell you? Yes, nothing has changed, nothing will change. we're never going to get that third party.
Its a sad sad fact, I'm at odds with half of my country.
What does this tell you? Yes, nothing has changed, nothing will change. we're never going to get that third party.
Its a sad sad fact, I'm at odds with half of my country.
16
Lord Basil, I hope you have a lot of lube stocked up, because you're going to have to stroke off to that fantasy for some time.
17
@5 There will be pressure to set the rate too low on a tax, or make too many credits available for bidding in a Cap and Trade scheme. Either can be effective or not depending on the administration of the plan. However, with C&T, you get to specify the carbon output, and let the market set the price. Trying to predict the level of taxation necessary to reduce output to a desired level is more difficult than simply setting the available credits to the desired level, which has to be calculated in any case. Enacting a new tax and adjusting the rate responsibly is not a task I imagine to be achievable by our government. Cap and trade has a chance, at least.
19
I still cringe when I hear people talk as though 2 parties is all is needed to meet the spectrum of ideas to form a political union.
If we had more parties then we might have had better opposition to the decline of our manufacturing base through legalized usury.
2 parties are dependent on creating crises and blaming it 'on the other guy'.
If we had more parties then we might have had better opposition to the decline of our manufacturing base through legalized usury.
2 parties are dependent on creating crises and blaming it 'on the other guy'.
21
Krugman should stick to economics. It is a fallacy to compare the Democrats and Republicans as co-equals.
The Republicans are a true party, with unity and a rigorous philosophy. Democrats are historically and again today finally, well, everything else. "I don't belong to a party, I'm a democrat," I think that was Will Rodgers.
Republicans should make themselves content with being the minority party, and realize their path to influence is not via electoral math, but in the inherent disorganization of their opponent.
The Republicans are a true party, with unity and a rigorous philosophy. Democrats are historically and again today finally, well, everything else. "I don't belong to a party, I'm a democrat," I think that was Will Rodgers.
Republicans should make themselves content with being the minority party, and realize their path to influence is not via electoral math, but in the inherent disorganization of their opponent.
22
I'm enjoying it while it lasts, but, didn't they say the same thing about the Dems as recently as 2004?
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