Tuesday, April 28, 2009
Homo That's... So Civilized...
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:26 PM
Men have been cruising and having anonymous sex in public park just outside of Amsterdam for years—a public place where unsuspecting nature lovers might happen upon them—but only now are local officials finally doing something about it.
A park near Amsterdam has unveiled information signs pointing out spots where officials say gay men are known to have sex—so no visitors are taken by surprise. The signs "clearly indicate what is happening in each zone; also those where gay men are known to practice 'cruising'," municipal spokeswoman Manon Koffijberg said.
Cruising is a slang word used to describe the act of trawling for casual sex."If you don't want to be confronted by a vision of that sort, the signs allow you to avoid specific areas," said Ms Koffijberg.... There are various groups of users of the park; people with small children who bathe on the beaches, those who walk their dogs, gays cruising and nature lovers," said Ms Koffijberg. "Things are arranged so that each group can relax in their own area without intruding on each other."
A few years back me and the boyfriend spent a few days in Denmark, in Copenhagen, and when we checked into our hotel the receptionist informed us—brightly, and in a very loud voice—that the park across the street was a popular gay cruising spot where lots of gay men went to have anonymous gay sexual relations! She wasn't warning us to stay out of the park; she could tell that we were gay and she was pointing us to the park, which the hotel regarded as an amenity for its gay guests. When my boyfriend told her that we were not interested in the park across the street—he chose the hotel because it was close to the museums—the clerk told us not that we needn't worry: Copenhagen's anonymous sex park was totally safe! The local police patrolled the park to insure that the men who enjoyed anonymous sex there weren't threatened by gay bashers. Enjoy your stay!
We went to the museums.
The patrols in Copenhagen were designed not just to facilitate cruising but to contain it as well. If the police allowed men to cruise this one park, and made sure that this particular park was safe for cruisers, then gay and straight-identified cruisers were less likely to colonize other public parks. I'm not interested in anonymous sex—in parks or anywhere else—but it seems like a wholly more civilized and effective response than busting cruising areas, ruining lives, and pushing the problem into other parks.
UPDATE: Folks in comments are asking: What about the children who will stumble upon cruisers with cocks in their mouths and asses?
First off, I live near a cruising spot, and I find it annoying—but not because my kid has ever seen anything unseemly. I get annoyed because I'd like to be able to go to the park to... go to the park, without assumptions being made about why I'm there. And I'm generally con fucking in public places. That said, I'm a rationale person and I recognize that there are going to be public cruising areas in any big (or small) city. We can complain about it, we can get the police to conduct raids, but it won't put a stop to it. And, yeah, we can scream "YOU SHOULDN'T!" in the faces of cruisers... which will work about as well as screaming "JUST SAY NO!" at drug users. I think we're better off tolerating it and doing what we can—like warning people off—to prevent innocent children from stumbling on scenes of homosexual facerapery.
And finally: We constantly hear about the possibility of innocent people—think of the children!—happening on cruisers mid-buttfuck/blowjob, but we hardly ever hear from people who've actually happened upon cruisers mid-buttfuck/blowjob. Why is that? Because, their reputation for risk-taking and inconsideration aside, most cruisers go out of their way to avoid detection—most of 'em are closeted, straight-identified men who live in terror of being arrested or discovered. (And yet they're out there taking this huge risk—people are nuts.) If you go looking for cruisers, you can find them. If you're not looking for 'em, they're usually very hard to spot, and they tend to get it on in spots that are extremely secluded and at times when the general public isn't making use of them. That park in Copenhagen, for instance? During the day it was full of families with children, office workers having lunch, and little old ladies walking dogs. The cruisers only come out at night, after dark, when the park wasn't being used by innocent children, their parents, grannies, etc.
Or so they tell me.
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5
I loved going to school in Copenhagen. The city is fabulous. The Danes were wonderful and friendly, they are a people who have learned not to make mountains out of mole holes. Oh, and the beer is good, too.
6
Wow that's so awesome and civilized that now there are parts of public parks where little kids can't go unless you want them to see dudes engaged in buttsex and blowjobs.
7
Seattle's answer to the gay cruising "problem" in city parks is to cut down all shrubs and vegetation in perceived cruising areas...which tends to either relocate the problem elsewhere or cause desperate horndogs to be more brazen and out in the open. Also, it's rotten for wildlife and removing vegetation will increase soil runoff, and encourage flooding and mudslides.
8
This is a study of what society is like when it is run by logic and understanding of what the realities of being human mean. From drug laws to cruising, prostitution and same sex marriage, the Danes have an abundance of rational thinking. Couldn't they lend us some? We have so little.
9
Wouldn't it be cool if every city had an officially sanctioned gay anonymous sex park? Like they could take 1/3rd of Discovery Park and call it "DisGAYvery Park" or something like that. Then your parkgoing experience could be enhanced by the lilting gruntings of sweaty mens engaging each other anally etc.
10
Dan, @ wreck beach in Vancouver, cops patrol the area to make sure that no one are bothering the nude sun bathers. it's quite a sight to see.
11
don't have sex in public. there is no consent involved from the people that happen across you in public areas. And people shouldn't have to avoid public areas because someone else called dibs to have sex there.
this isn't about gay or straight, or about being uptight about PDA's
this isn't about gay or straight, or about being uptight about PDA's
14
I'm with you, 11. I live near a cruising spot, and I find it annoying -- I may be more annoyed than you, actually, as I've been accused of going to the park to cruise. I'd like to be able to go to the park to... go to the park, without assumptions being made.
That said, I'm rationale, and I recognize that there are going to be public cruising areas in any big city. We can't fight it. Yeah, we can scream "YOU SHOULDN'T!" in the faces of cruisers... and it will work about as well as screaming "JUST SAY NO!" at drug users.
And we constantly hear about the possibility of innocent people—think of the children!—happening on cruisers mid-buttfuck/blowjob, but we hardly ever hear from people who've actually happened upon cruisers mid-buttfuck/blowjob. Why is that? Because, their reputation aside, most cruisers go out of their way to avoid detection—most of 'em are closeted, straight-identified men who live in terror of being arrested or discovered. (And yet they're out there taking this huge risk—people are crazy.)
That said, I'm rationale, and I recognize that there are going to be public cruising areas in any big city. We can't fight it. Yeah, we can scream "YOU SHOULDN'T!" in the faces of cruisers... and it will work about as well as screaming "JUST SAY NO!" at drug users.
And we constantly hear about the possibility of innocent people—think of the children!—happening on cruisers mid-buttfuck/blowjob, but we hardly ever hear from people who've actually happened upon cruisers mid-buttfuck/blowjob. Why is that? Because, their reputation aside, most cruisers go out of their way to avoid detection—most of 'em are closeted, straight-identified men who live in terror of being arrested or discovered. (And yet they're out there taking this huge risk—people are crazy.)
16
I assumed part of the appeal of anonymous sex in public parks was the heightened arousal due to the risk of getting busted?
17
We used to have a museum of Erotica, but they had to close a coupla months back. Couldn't make the ends meet.
I hope you and the boyfriend got to see it in time. (I vaguely recall sauntering round H. C. Ørstedparken some years ago - before I knew what it was known for - at least it was in the daytime ...)
I hope you and the boyfriend got to see it in time. (I vaguely recall sauntering round H. C. Ørstedparken some years ago - before I knew what it was known for - at least it was in the daytime ...)
18
It's awesome how Denmark has allowed lots of Muslims into Denmark (4% of Denmark) who in turn make up a large majority of the country's rapists, choosing non-Muslim women for the vast majority of victims too!
19
I consider myself sex-positive but I draw the line at this issue. Parks are shared public spaces, not bordellos. I do not appreciate being propositioned three times as I walk through the arboretum, and my friend really didn't appreciate his seven year old seeing two guys sucking each other off in the bushes there. These guys should get a room like everyone else.
20
And yes, I know they will do it anyway. People break every law, that doesn't mean all laws are futile. A law is effective if it which reduces behavior which negatively impacts the community, which I claim this does. And isn't the whole point to move the problem to another place? Like out of city parks?
21
I don't know. Does being rational about cruising (acknowledging that it exists and that folks will want to do it whether it's legal or not) necessitate that public space be sacrificed to individuals putting public health at risk by engaging in such risky sexual behavior?
Being rational about something like cruising should not preclude the establishment of community standards.
Being rational about something like cruising should not preclude the establishment of community standards.
22
Yes, @6, it's totally true. In Denmark life is geared towards ADULTS, and the things ADULTS do, unlike this country where we're rapidly diminishing our social interactions to only those that are appropriate to be viewed by a six year-old.
23
QUEER GAY ANAL SPACES OF COLOR AND SIZE (Q.G.A.S.O.C.A.S.) DEMANDS CITY-FUNDED QUEER SPACES SET ASIDE FOR THE FREE EXPRESSION OF TRANSGRESSIVE RADICAL FAEIRE ACTS AGAINST HETERONORMATIVE OPPRESSION AND GENOCIDAL VIOLENCE ENACTED AGAINST QUEER GAY ANAL SPACES OF COLOR AND SIZE SPACES. WE DEMAND A QUEER GAY ANAL SPACE OF COLOR AND SIZE IN ALL PUBLIC PARKS AND HETERONORMATIVE OPPRESSORS AND OTHER KINDS OF BREEDERS WILL BENEFIT FROM PUBLIC DISPLAYS OF GAY BUTTSEX TO CHILDREN.
25
Suppression of a behavior rarely works - what will usually happen is that the activity (expression of behavior) will be acted on in another location/venue - or if the behavior is being totally prevented from being acted on, a secondary behavior will then emerge - one that is usually more self-destructive to the individual.
We (I am a CPDT - Certified Pet Dog Trainer) often see this when dogs are preventing from engaging from an activity that they either enjoy or that is part of their breed trait (Border Collies like to herd). It is not uncommon for a dog that has been forced to stop barking to suddenly start digging up the entire yard; or one that has been forced to stop digging to turn to self-mutilation (due in part to the anxiety produced between the conflict of giving into desire verses the fear of punishment).
Allowing a way for the behavior to be indulged - within certain guidelines (dog may bark, but must cease after 30 sec.; dog is given area where he may dig, but rest of the yard is off limits) tends to do the most good with the least amount of harm.
The activity is contained, and there are rules on when and where it is to be expressed - and the individual is able to engage in the behavior without fear of punishment for doing so.
We (I am a CPDT - Certified Pet Dog Trainer) often see this when dogs are preventing from engaging from an activity that they either enjoy or that is part of their breed trait (Border Collies like to herd). It is not uncommon for a dog that has been forced to stop barking to suddenly start digging up the entire yard; or one that has been forced to stop digging to turn to self-mutilation (due in part to the anxiety produced between the conflict of giving into desire verses the fear of punishment).
Allowing a way for the behavior to be indulged - within certain guidelines (dog may bark, but must cease after 30 sec.; dog is given area where he may dig, but rest of the yard is off limits) tends to do the most good with the least amount of harm.
The activity is contained, and there are rules on when and where it is to be expressed - and the individual is able to engage in the behavior without fear of punishment for doing so.
27
@24, 9, 6 etc. What is your obsession with buttsex?
Not all gay sex involves da butt.
I presume like most 12-year olds you LOVE saying the word "butt".
Not all gay sex involves da butt.
I presume like most 12-year olds you LOVE saying the word "butt".
29
Dan won't go into Volunteer Park because he's afraid people might think he's there to cruise? If you're sitting in a parked car on "Cruise Drive" or loitering in the bushes, then I'd say that might be a good idea, but if you were only planning a walk, a visit to SAAM or the Conservatory or just hanging out on a sunny day with a book, then I'd have to say, quit being a fucking puss and worrying about what people might say or think.
Should ANYONE be fucking around in a restroom or out in the open near where they could be discovered by ANYONE not interested in their activities? uh, no, but does that mean some well meaning but clueless doof needs to call the riot police because they were hiking in a very remote part of a huge park and stumbled across someone getting it on discretely under a bush? uh, no.
For that matter, i've been in queer spaces; the remote nude beach in Edmunds, and that spot in the Arboretum where gay guys sunbathe in the summer and seen clueless yoinks stumble in and looked shocked that there are nude/semi-nude men out in the open, despite the fact, if they had been paying attention, there were numerous clues they were encroaching on gay oriented areas...and I don't feel a bit sorry for those yoinks. I don't hang out in children's playgrounds, or attempt to join in pickup games with urban teens, or attempt to hang out with the Vets at the VFW because I have the sense to realize those aren't spaces that are appropriate for 45 year old single gay white men. Every square inch of the entire planet is not and should not be appropriate for every member of society.
All single, horny, non-monogamous men interested in gay sex will cruise. some of them do it in bars, or their MCCC church, or online, or at the gym, or their AA meeting or a park. And men will have sex in public, or at least semi-public places because we CAN. Men can get their rocks off with the minimal amount of fuss and muss unlike most heterosexual or lesbian sex which requires a little more effort. And, no, not all cruisers are "straight" or closeted. It depends on where you are and when. And 30 years ago, pre-AIDS and pre-Internet, EVERYBODY cruised in one form or the other.
More...
Should ANYONE be fucking around in a restroom or out in the open near where they could be discovered by ANYONE not interested in their activities? uh, no, but does that mean some well meaning but clueless doof needs to call the riot police because they were hiking in a very remote part of a huge park and stumbled across someone getting it on discretely under a bush? uh, no.
For that matter, i've been in queer spaces; the remote nude beach in Edmunds, and that spot in the Arboretum where gay guys sunbathe in the summer and seen clueless yoinks stumble in and looked shocked that there are nude/semi-nude men out in the open, despite the fact, if they had been paying attention, there were numerous clues they were encroaching on gay oriented areas...and I don't feel a bit sorry for those yoinks. I don't hang out in children's playgrounds, or attempt to join in pickup games with urban teens, or attempt to hang out with the Vets at the VFW because I have the sense to realize those aren't spaces that are appropriate for 45 year old single gay white men. Every square inch of the entire planet is not and should not be appropriate for every member of society.
All single, horny, non-monogamous men interested in gay sex will cruise. some of them do it in bars, or their MCCC church, or online, or at the gym, or their AA meeting or a park. And men will have sex in public, or at least semi-public places because we CAN. Men can get their rocks off with the minimal amount of fuss and muss unlike most heterosexual or lesbian sex which requires a little more effort. And, no, not all cruisers are "straight" or closeted. It depends on where you are and when. And 30 years ago, pre-AIDS and pre-Internet, EVERYBODY cruised in one form or the other.
30
Proost! I love my old country. I'll look fondly upon the next windmill I come across, and always speak fondly of Van Gogh.
31
News flash: it's not just closeted gay guys (or kinda-sorta straight guys, married & single) who cruise in public parks. This only makes up, I'd say, around half of men who are part of this so-called "problem." The other half is gay guys who inevitably strike out at the bars (and, as a result, don't go to the bars) because they don't fit the mold of gay perfection: twentysomething, very trim (to the point of anorexia), perfect skin, with the "right" haircut. THIS IS AN UNREALISTIC STANDARD THAT YOU, MR. SAVAGE, HELP PERPETUATE. "Go to a bath-house, then," you say. Well, some of us don't like the idea of stepping in a stranger's cum, OK? "Go hook up on craigslist, then," you say. Well, in case you haven't noticed lately, people die sometimes at the hands of craigslist hook-ups. So fuck off.
And don't you DARE call me "inconsiderate," you tight-assed fuck.
And don't you DARE call me "inconsiderate," you tight-assed fuck.
32
What interests me is that cruising in parks continues to appeal to gay men in European countries with far less homophobic family expectations, social pressures and civic policies than ours. The park with the newsworthy sign is in Amsterdam, but may as well be the Bois de Boulogne in Paris, Copenhagen's Ørstedsparken, Berlin's Grunewald.
To us in Seattle it may seem a truism that Volunteer Park and the Arboretum are sought by people with no other sexual outlet - the repressed, the closeted, the hardcore lonelies. But it is interesting that other countries' perfectly ordinary out citizens seem to think it's fun even though it's not forbidden fruit. So to speak.
To us in Seattle it may seem a truism that Volunteer Park and the Arboretum are sought by people with no other sexual outlet - the repressed, the closeted, the hardcore lonelies. But it is interesting that other countries' perfectly ordinary out citizens seem to think it's fun even though it's not forbidden fruit. So to speak.
33
Guys cruise in daylight hours in Woodland Park (near the old rabbit area), but the sex is out of sight. There are just lots of guys on the trails, nervously saying hi to other single guys, looking a little guilty whenever they see a kid, probably because they think of their wife and kids and their republican fundraising.
34
@24 hell of a leap for someone named "So logical" may wanna look that one up. He was merely makeing a point that SOMEWHERE in the world it isnt about breeders pumping out another fucked up example of how their ego works...asshat
Men cruising the park is made up of all different kinds of demographics and the reasons they do so are just as varied, but the predominant reasons are closet issues not cause they cant score at the bar.
As more and more acceptance of 'mo lifestyle occurs, and as we continue to overpopulate the planet making it further impossible to enjoy being outside without the expectation that you will be sharing space w/the public, this behavior will become less and less necessary and/or allowable in societies and moved into the private arena again. These activities generally start in places that people are not usually pedestrian too, unfortunately as we try to find spaces to actually get away from others, other then the sanctuary of our own domiciles, these places are being discovered and shut down.
Men cruising the park is made up of all different kinds of demographics and the reasons they do so are just as varied, but the predominant reasons are closet issues not cause they cant score at the bar.
As more and more acceptance of 'mo lifestyle occurs, and as we continue to overpopulate the planet making it further impossible to enjoy being outside without the expectation that you will be sharing space w/the public, this behavior will become less and less necessary and/or allowable in societies and moved into the private arena again. These activities generally start in places that people are not usually pedestrian too, unfortunately as we try to find spaces to actually get away from others, other then the sanctuary of our own domiciles, these places are being discovered and shut down.
35
I love the gays, support gay rights, marriage, etc., etc., but keep it out of the parks, fellas. There are gay bars, glory holes, and internets to arrange this kind of thing.
37
@ 35 - I'll bet you have more gay friends than Sarah Palin! You probably even own a Melissa Etheridge CD or two! I'm so happy for you and your heterosexuality!
38
Since when did parks become sex clubs? I don't want to see gays having sex in the park. I don't want to see straights having sex in the park. I just want to see the park, period. Sweet Jesus, like we don't see enough sex as it is........
39
@37,
Oversensitive much? Liking a person or group of people doesn't have to equal approving of or liking everything they do.
Oversensitive much? Liking a person or group of people doesn't have to equal approving of or liking everything they do.
40
Hey, I think we went to that park during our 24 hour layover in Copenhagen. It was a beautiful sunny day and there were children running around and one skanky looking old guy in a much too small speedo. We wondered if it became a cruising spot after dark. Found out after we got home that, yep, it was notorious after dark. I'm not into public sex either, Dan, but it sure seemed civilized (I guess that's the word) that one park could have two completely different uses.
41
haha, i actualy live near this park and walk my dog there reguarly.
and Dan is spot on, the cruisers mostly are very carefull not to get caught and have their sex well of the tracks and/or only come out at night.
and yes, the mayority are straight/bi-sexual men, if you look in the cars parked there in the evening well over 80% have childeren seats or toys in the back.
i do (or better my dog does) stumble once in a while into men having sex in the bushes.
my fav was a few years back when i was fetching my dog who kept barking franticly at something and refused to come back to me, to find two petrified half naked men, one tied up to a tree and both in gimp masks and my dog going beserk at them.
but sorry fox-news taliban, i'm not realy mentaly scarred from that though.
and no: condoms and lube are not provided but there are extra garbagecans placed at strategic points so you can get rid of your "waste".
the signs are pretty boring maps with some explaining texts that indicate the "allowed to keep your dog of the leash areas" just as clearly btw, not media friendly "zomg! gay sex freaks ahead!!" in reflecting lettering
and Dan is spot on, the cruisers mostly are very carefull not to get caught and have their sex well of the tracks and/or only come out at night.
and yes, the mayority are straight/bi-sexual men, if you look in the cars parked there in the evening well over 80% have childeren seats or toys in the back.
i do (or better my dog does) stumble once in a while into men having sex in the bushes.
my fav was a few years back when i was fetching my dog who kept barking franticly at something and refused to come back to me, to find two petrified half naked men, one tied up to a tree and both in gimp masks and my dog going beserk at them.
but sorry fox-news taliban, i'm not realy mentaly scarred from that though.
and no: condoms and lube are not provided but there are extra garbagecans placed at strategic points so you can get rid of your "waste".
the signs are pretty boring maps with some explaining texts that indicate the "allowed to keep your dog of the leash areas" just as clearly btw, not media friendly "zomg! gay sex freaks ahead!!" in reflecting lettering
42
the idea that only the old, the closeted, the ugly, the freakish and the misfit go to cruisy areas in public parks has obviously never been to Bareass Beach in the Arboretum in the summer...HOT!
and, I think some of you have the idea that the Geighs are all going at it in the middle of the street in front of the mutated cheerio in Volunteer Park in broad daylight. CRUISING, (looking for sex, or just someone to chat with) goes on all the time and out in the open, (yet, THIS freaks a lot of straights out). Actual sex tends to be usually discreet (in the bushes, duh) or at night.
And, it's been going on for thousands of years...ain't nothin' new going on here.
and, I think some of you have the idea that the Geighs are all going at it in the middle of the street in front of the mutated cheerio in Volunteer Park in broad daylight. CRUISING, (looking for sex, or just someone to chat with) goes on all the time and out in the open, (yet, THIS freaks a lot of straights out). Actual sex tends to be usually discreet (in the bushes, duh) or at night.
And, it's been going on for thousands of years...ain't nothin' new going on here.
43
Dear #41,
1)Why are you peaking in people's cars?
2)I really doubt those figures. Just because someone is parked on the street doesn't mean that they're gays cruising.
3)Volunteer Park is on Capitol Hill, the gay 'hood...the majority of the cruisers are FROM Capitol Hill and WALK to the park. Anyone parked, if they are cruising is probably from off the Hill.
4)6 years ago, Dan Savage was driving a car that would have had a car seat and toys in the backseat...does that mean he is a closeted heterosexual?
Duh.
1)Why are you peaking in people's cars?
2)I really doubt those figures. Just because someone is parked on the street doesn't mean that they're gays cruising.
3)Volunteer Park is on Capitol Hill, the gay 'hood...the majority of the cruisers are FROM Capitol Hill and WALK to the park. Anyone parked, if they are cruising is probably from off the Hill.
4)6 years ago, Dan Savage was driving a car that would have had a car seat and toys in the backseat...does that mean he is a closeted heterosexual?
Duh.
44
@ 42 & 43
I believe hes referring to the park in the post not anything around here, let alone on this continent, but ya I agree the general public (around here anyway) has a problem with a stranger saying hi to them. Some one just said hi, didnt ask you for money, didnt wanna sell you a pig from Mexico... just sayin hi
I believe hes referring to the park in the post not anything around here, let alone on this continent, but ya I agree the general public (around here anyway) has a problem with a stranger saying hi to them. Some one just said hi, didnt ask you for money, didnt wanna sell you a pig from Mexico... just sayin hi
45
No @22, you ignorant slut, but infantilizing the standards of social interaction to ONLY what's appropriate to a five year-old is simply a denial that adults behave like ADULTS: they drink, smoke, cuss, and fuck each other's brains out, when given the opportunity. Trying to make the entire world conform to the appropriate standards of a five year-old consciousness is not only stupid, but futile.
What the sane, sensible Dutch have decided is that, since adult behavior is inevitable, they're going to place the onus on individuals, rather than attempt to nanny state people into submission. And so, since they know they can't stop it no matter what, they've chosen instead to extend the envelope of the social compact to the park-fuckers by saying, "you can do this here to your heart's content - but nowhere else", while at the same time informing the general citizenry that, "if you don't want to see park-fucking, stay away from this tiny section of this one particular park".
It serves a number of socially beneficial functions: it limits the scope of park-fuckery, so that it's not happening everywhere; it provides a relatively safe, unobtrusive location for park-fuckery to occur, and presumably this location is not so integral to the social maturation process of Dutch toddlers that their parents don't already have a myriad of options available to them, should they elect to delay this particular item on their list of "things we will eventually have do discuss with the kids" for a decade or so.
What the sane, sensible Dutch have decided is that, since adult behavior is inevitable, they're going to place the onus on individuals, rather than attempt to nanny state people into submission. And so, since they know they can't stop it no matter what, they've chosen instead to extend the envelope of the social compact to the park-fuckers by saying, "you can do this here to your heart's content - but nowhere else", while at the same time informing the general citizenry that, "if you don't want to see park-fucking, stay away from this tiny section of this one particular park".
It serves a number of socially beneficial functions: it limits the scope of park-fuckery, so that it's not happening everywhere; it provides a relatively safe, unobtrusive location for park-fuckery to occur, and presumably this location is not so integral to the social maturation process of Dutch toddlers that their parents don't already have a myriad of options available to them, should they elect to delay this particular item on their list of "things we will eventually have do discuss with the kids" for a decade or so.
46
@ 43.
1. if you walk your dog you pass the the cars
2. the only people who park there are cruisers, the only other people who frequent the park are living on a walking disctance.
this is not a city center park, it are some bushes at the outmost edge of town crammed in between the highway, the last of the residential houses and the light industrial area. Its the place teenage kids also go to build campfires and get drunk at the lake side in the summer.
There is a reason the cruisers go there, its lightly patroled, private and all kinds of shady buisness go on there at night.
3. never been to seatle dipshit, as you can read from my comment i live near the park in amsterdam where the OP was about
4. no offcourse not, but accidently (realy!) both living and working near cruising areas you sometimes meet and talk to people in the know, a small part of the cruisers are indeed open or closseted gays but most are straight or bi-sexual (but in a straight relationship) identifying men looking for uncomplicated, free, no strings atached, casual sexual encounters.
1. if you walk your dog you pass the the cars
2. the only people who park there are cruisers, the only other people who frequent the park are living on a walking disctance.
this is not a city center park, it are some bushes at the outmost edge of town crammed in between the highway, the last of the residential houses and the light industrial area. Its the place teenage kids also go to build campfires and get drunk at the lake side in the summer.
There is a reason the cruisers go there, its lightly patroled, private and all kinds of shady buisness go on there at night.
3. never been to seatle dipshit, as you can read from my comment i live near the park in amsterdam where the OP was about
4. no offcourse not, but accidently (realy!) both living and working near cruising areas you sometimes meet and talk to people in the know, a small part of the cruisers are indeed open or closseted gays but most are straight or bi-sexual (but in a straight relationship) identifying men looking for uncomplicated, free, no strings atached, casual sexual encounters.
47
There's one little problem with this kind of civilized behavior: the Danes and the Dutch have mega, and I mean MEGA, social controls in place to keep people in line. Americans don't have that, which is why you can get cussed out by a chronically drunk guy on the bus, or propositioned by a creep in a public bathroom, etc., etc. in this country. Americans have much less shame and are much less susceptible to social stigma.
If the Danes and the Dutch have set aside public places for people to fuck, those people know not to step out of line or there will be severe social consequences -- not necessarily legal consequences, just social ostracism, which actually means something there.
I suspect that if an American city were to set up a free fuck zone, there will still be some men who don't comply with it, much the same way as when an American city sets up a wall for graffiti and graffiti in that area only increases.
If the Danes and the Dutch have set aside public places for people to fuck, those people know not to step out of line or there will be severe social consequences -- not necessarily legal consequences, just social ostracism, which actually means something there.
I suspect that if an American city were to set up a free fuck zone, there will still be some men who don't comply with it, much the same way as when an American city sets up a wall for graffiti and graffiti in that area only increases.
48
Pretty amazing that so many of you here-- including Dan -- are able to talk about the motives and secret lives of an uncounted, unidentified hiding-in-the-shadows group of people.
Nobody even knows how many gay people exist, yet here you are discussing how "most" of these park-partiers are closeted, or thrill-seekers, or losers, or............
How the hell could you possibly know anything except what you suppose or personaly encounter?? And yet you speak with such certainty.
Nobody even knows how many gay people exist, yet here you are discussing how "most" of these park-partiers are closeted, or thrill-seekers, or losers, or............
How the hell could you possibly know anything except what you suppose or personaly encounter?? And yet you speak with such certainty.
49
@48
Spend a little time with the HIV/AIDS prevention community in Seattle (or Pug.Sound Region) and you will learn more about the how, where, when and the reasons behind the north american male homosexual, bi-sexual and transgender mating habits then you really care to know.
However since you're an asshat I expect the snarky tone of your post to be some twisted message of hypocrisy. Failed again.
Spend a little time with the HIV/AIDS prevention community in Seattle (or Pug.Sound Region) and you will learn more about the how, where, when and the reasons behind the north american male homosexual, bi-sexual and transgender mating habits then you really care to know.
However since you're an asshat I expect the snarky tone of your post to be some twisted message of hypocrisy. Failed again.
50
@49 --Huh? Hypocrisy? About what?
And you assume what about my knowledge and experience?
Thanks for proving my point again......
And you assume what about my knowledge and experience?
Thanks for proving my point again......
51
I must agree with hartiepie . No one knows the number of Gay citizens in Seattle. To use terms like "most" "all" "some" "none" sheds no light on the subject.
Drone5969 I HAVE spent lots of time (many years) volunteering for HIV/AIDS prevention programs. I have no Idea what you are talking about.
Drone5969 I HAVE spent lots of time (many years) volunteering for HIV/AIDS prevention programs. I have no Idea what you are talking about.
52
i live near a cruise park and have never stumbled across 2 men going at it. what i have witnessed far too many times however is straight people fucking and making no attempts whatsoever to hide it. at least the queer cruisers in parks, however sad and messed what they're doing is, have the decency to hide.
53
I've never seen gay men having sex in public. I've seen lots of straight guys getting blow jobs by prostitutes in their cars.
54
Hmm, maybe when I had that creepy encounter with a masturbator in the Jardin de Plantes in Paris, it was really my fault for encroaching on the public masturbation zone. My bad.
58
Great! Now what we need are some PIG-FREE zones.
Listen up: Couldn't we make it even better? Why not have a really beautiful erotic park with art and flowers and music that is a tribute to the tantric magic of human sexuality instead of roping off the park-fuckers in the bushes. Then folks who want that could go there and have a really fulfilling experience. The families and kids and museum goers could go about enjoying the other parks. Too much to hope I suppose.
Honestly the more I read the Slog the more I understand why straight people fear that gay sexuality is going to create a pervasive and disgusting depravity. Straight folks go there too for sure but we gays seem to have a major compulsion to literally wave our wangs in everyone's face. Why do we do this to ourselves, people?
I vote for the private parks. And for people to have the sense to use them and leave the non-park-fuckers in peace.
Listen up: Couldn't we make it even better? Why not have a really beautiful erotic park with art and flowers and music that is a tribute to the tantric magic of human sexuality instead of roping off the park-fuckers in the bushes. Then folks who want that could go there and have a really fulfilling experience. The families and kids and museum goers could go about enjoying the other parks. Too much to hope I suppose.
Honestly the more I read the Slog the more I understand why straight people fear that gay sexuality is going to create a pervasive and disgusting depravity. Straight folks go there too for sure but we gays seem to have a major compulsion to literally wave our wangs in everyone's face. Why do we do this to ourselves, people?
I vote for the private parks. And for people to have the sense to use them and leave the non-park-fuckers in peace.
59
We don't hear from people who've happened upon cruisers mid-buttfuck/blow job? Really? Doesn't anyone go running in the arboretum? Used to be a bench on the trail at the south end where twice I ran by cruisers (blow job once, masturbating another). Broad daylight. Right around a corner. Have to say, each time it seriously startled me, and I really wished I hadn't had to deal. Stopped running there. Now the area's renovated, I think.
@29 - no, there were not "numerous clues."
@29 - no, there were not "numerous clues."
60
All these comments by self-righteous straights complaining of gays having sex in public places, and just the other day, in the news, a straight couple was busted on the lawn of the Queen's Palace, having full-blown intercourse.
According to the news report, they didn't even bother stopping their public "fuckfest," when tourist ambled by and started taking photos. It didn't stop until the police showed up.
Now, actually, I'm not too bothered by this. I too, can either stop and watch such a display, or I can just keep moving along. What I am bothered by, is that the couple only received a "slap" on the wrist for the public display. Had this been a gay couple, the cops would have surely hauled them off to jail, publicly embarrassed them, and possibly ruined their very lives in the process.
So, to all you self-righteous straight buffoons thinking public sex is just a "gay phenomenon," I say, "fuck you and all your hypocrisy too."
According to the news report, they didn't even bother stopping their public "fuckfest," when tourist ambled by and started taking photos. It didn't stop until the police showed up.
Now, actually, I'm not too bothered by this. I too, can either stop and watch such a display, or I can just keep moving along. What I am bothered by, is that the couple only received a "slap" on the wrist for the public display. Had this been a gay couple, the cops would have surely hauled them off to jail, publicly embarrassed them, and possibly ruined their very lives in the process.
So, to all you self-righteous straight buffoons thinking public sex is just a "gay phenomenon," I say, "fuck you and all your hypocrisy too."
61
I am new to the area, and last Sunday during the 70+ degree sunny weather I went on a walk in the arboretum. I happened to wander into a section of the park that was *clearly* gay male space. Since I'm not a gay male, I recognized that perhaps I should leave the boys to their fun and I promptly moved right along to a different area of the arboretum. No harm, no foul. Can't we all just get along?
62
How explicit are these signs? If the signs "clearly indicate what is happening in each zone" ... are they that much less offensive than the actual activity depicted?
63
Don't get me wrong, but in my opinion sex in public are the domain of animals, but not civilized and advanced society. I think it's not a problem to get a motel room today, or at least a barn, just not demonstrate the most sacred spheres of your life! We should think about the young impressionable minds, and just imagine the consequences of our steps and behavior.
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