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Sunday, April 26, 2009

re: Can't the Armenians Get a Break?

Posted by on Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 3:15 PM

Since a few commenters on this post professed ignorance and/or indifference regarding the Armenian genocide—and whether or not Obama did a morally bankrupt thing by saying he'd acknowledge the genocide and then sidestepping the question to stay on good terms with Turkey—Slog reader Nevdon wrote up a short primer:

My family lived on the Euphrates river in a town named Egin, which means "spring" and was founded by Armenians in the 9th century. Egin is now called the Kemaliye to erase the memory of Armenians from the Eastern Turkish provinces that they (mostly) lived in.

The Turkish government did not start the what is now called the Genocide until 1915, but they had already started massacring Armenians in the 1890's. The reasons for this are usually attributed to a failing state attempting to scapegoat an educated minority population. The Armenians have been a diaspora since the times of the Romans (who we predate) and are sometimes called Christian "Jews."

My great grandfather had been expelled from Turkey for translating poems in the 1890's. After 2000 Egin Armenians were executed for a bank robbery(!) and hundreds of thousands of Armenians had been killed in Turkey in the mid 1890's, he managed to bribe a Turkish Steamship captain to conceal my great-grandmother and her children in rugs in the hold of his ship in Alexandria to smuggle them to England.

Every member of our family who was left behind was killed. We do not know the particulars.

The stories I grew up with as a child from other survivors included mass executions by the Turks through forced marching through the Syrian desert without food or water and being herded on frozen lakes and then having cannons fired into the lake to drown them.

Read the rest of the story below the jump. And please enjoy Jon Stewart on this same question in 2007:

We do not know the exact number of Armenians who were killed from 1915 to 1918, but it is commonly estimated to be around 1.5 million- or half of all living Armenians at the time.

The WWI German allies of the Turkish government were purportedly highly impressed with the Turkish regime's efficiency in dealing with the "Armenian Question" and apparently used many of the tactics against their own scapegoated minority 20 years later.

The Turkish Government has yet to recognize or apologize for the genocide and it is a crime to talk about it in Turkey today. (To do so "insults Turkishness.")

Why is this important?

Genocide can never be allowed to be covered up. Silence encourages further atrocities. Even Hitler said this: "I put ready my Death's Head units, with the order to kill without pity or mercy all men, women, and children... Who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians?"

In France it is a crime to deny the Armenian Genocide occurred.

The sooner Turkey has an honest discussion with itself, the sooner it will be admitted in the EU and the community of nations. I am not surprised that Turkey has been plagued with assassinations of prominent intellectuals and massive human rights abuses, as no one will stand up to the Turkish government in asking them to confront their history. The American President has the most powerful voice in the world—in compromising with honesty and lying about his pledge, he is complicit with the Genocide deniers and is helping to perpetuate terror.

I believe that this overrides any short term goals we may have with Turkey.

Are we so weak that we have to cave in a country that currently censors the press , bans LGBT organizations because they offend morality, tortures thousands of its own citizens ,has one of the worst records towards up mentally disabled citizens, still has wide spread "honor killings" , as well as a host other severe human rights abuses?

This is the country we are afraid of offending over the word 'genocide' to describe actions that occurred almost a hundred years ago?

I believe the Turkish people are better than this and to hold them to lower standards than European/ Christian countries encourages the worst elements of their society.

 

Comments (30) RSS

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1
Obama = Holocaust Denier
Posted by I thought Obama would be better than this on April 26, 2009 at 3:23 PM
2
Oh, for chrissake. He hasn't denied anything, let alone the holocaust. This is about negotiating a tricky part of international relations littered with land mines. Obama hasn't stepped on any so far. The kind of acknowledgment people say he's reneged on is purely cosmetic, and has nothing to do with anything. OF COURSE Armenians are upset, and they have a right to be; but Obama is trying to find a way forward here, not throw gasoline on the flames of the past.

Everyone knows it was genocide. The question is, what next? Turkey's in a sensitive position, and it's more important to (carefully, carefully) lead them into modernity than it is to perform symbolic acts like the Armenian wants. Besides, they've gotten more from Obama than they ever have before.

In short: what's the point? Hitchens wants to start a war; that's his interest: attack Islam in all its forms. Do you?
Posted by Fnarf on April 26, 2009 at 3:50 PM
3
This is definitely a disappointing move by Obama, but he still has at least 3 more chances to correct himself on it. Hopefully by then Turkey and Armenia have reached a point in partnership where the word genocide doesn't need to be tip-toed around.
Posted by Doctor Professor on April 26, 2009 at 3:57 PM
4
“Evil, what is evil? There is only one evil, to deny truth.”
Posted by Ghandi on April 26, 2009 at 4:02 PM
5

Obama = Holocaust Denier
Posted by Hypocricy and Betrayal are just the icings on the cake on April 26, 2009 at 4:03 PM
6
“Never, "for the sake of peace and quiet," deny your own convictions”

Dag Hammarskjold
(Swedish Statesman and United Nations official, 1905-1961)
Posted by Obama = Denier on April 26, 2009 at 4:06 PM
7
“Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves.”
Posted by Abraham Lincoln on April 26, 2009 at 4:09 PM
8
.
Posted by . on April 26, 2009 at 4:09 PM
9
Godwin's law.
Posted by Y.F. on April 26, 2009 at 4:15 PM
10
Thank you Fnarf. Exactly.
Posted by Patti on April 26, 2009 at 4:27 PM
11
I agree with Fnarf, but Turkey's position on this only proves my suspicion: the people who scream the most about accusations of bad behavior are the ones who are the most guilty. Some examples: White people offended by any suggestion that minorities (especially African Americans and Native Americans) have gotten the shaft in our country's history. People who can't abide even being asked for a handout from a homeless person. (Five bucks says those people secretly feel the most guilty about seeing poverty and not doing anything about it.)

Turks are never going to be able to move forward until they face up to their past.
Posted by keshmeshi on April 26, 2009 at 4:37 PM
12
If I remember right, it was the Bush administration that went around offending people and having nothing good to show for it except fewer countries willing to help the US when we needed it. We elected Obama to put an end to that pig-headedness.

Now we have some activists wanting the US to make a diplomatic blunder only for the the purpose of making an abstract moral point. Just like Bush would have done. No thanks.
Posted by elenchos on April 26, 2009 at 4:48 PM
13
If I remember right, it was Obama that went around bragging how he was going to call the Turks out on the Armenian Genocide.
Posted by Obama is a wus and a liar on April 26, 2009 at 5:04 PM
14
...a diplomatic blunder only for the the purpose of making an abstract moral point.
Posted by Neville Chamberland; Czechoslovokia- 1938 on April 26, 2009 at 5:07 PM
15
12
Lets be realistic.
To get ahead in this mean old world sometimes you have to kiss lying genocidal murdering thugs in the ass.
That's what we elected Obama to do.
Posted by thanks! on April 26, 2009 at 5:08 PM
16
Thanks for reporting/informing on things such as this. The news media often falls victim to supplying short light entertainment pieces for ratings instead of delivering informative in depth news pieces. In the future, all news reports will be 120 characters or less with the tags #sex, #blood, or #celebrity.
Posted by datajunkie on April 26, 2009 at 5:31 PM
17
Can anyone IMAGINE attempting to negotiate with say, Germany, and not recognizing the Holocaust so as not to step on diplomatic toes?
For chrissake, I'm calling out Fnarf and his fans - this is ridiculous. A Holocaust is a Holocaust is a Holocaust.

Or how bout...say....TORTURE. Aren't you all ranting about how the truth has to come out? Truth in situations of egregious wickedness is vital.

This has got to be the most astounding example of ... CRAP that I've heard in a long time.
Posted by onion on April 26, 2009 at 6:33 PM
18
First of all, the Ottoman empire was different from Turkey. At this point the Armenians are simplifying the past almost as much as the Turks. The masterminds of the Armenian genocide were not founding members of modern Turkey. The key Ottoman parties to the genocide still alive after the founding of the Turksh state were assassinated while in exile from the new post-Ottoman Turkish state. And much of the killing was done buy Kurds! yes, the Armenians want their apology, but the state that wronged them was broken up by the western allies and *doesn't exist anymore.* The wish to get an apology from the Turkish government of Turkey isn't such a no-brainer as people make it out to be. People who want the immigant Jews to leave Palestine and give the land back to its original owners have a far better case to argue... and see how far that gets you.
Posted by cracked on April 26, 2009 at 6:50 PM
19
Wow Fnarf, just... Wow. I MIGHT be able to see where you're coming from if Obama didn't expressly promise during his campaign to recognize the Armenian Genocide. and genocide is the key word here, not "atrocity". You say we elected Obama to find a new way forward; well, false campaign promises are part of the politics of the past, and I was hoping Obama was better than that. If you really don't think it's important to recognize genocide, ESPECIALLY when dealing with foreign nations that have an ongoing history of human rights abuses, then you aren't as intelligent as I thought you were. That's a shame.
Posted by Brandon J. on April 26, 2009 at 7:36 PM
20
1. Most excellent post. Hopefully it's a precedent -- you know, actually informing us of facts 'n' history 'n' stuff.
I could see a nice informative piece on, say, what IS the deal with Chavez? What dictating has he done exactly? Or those torture treaties, gee, what DO they say about "danger to the state" or "war". This of course means excluding those writers who spout nonsense and are misinforming people like the one who said war has no rules.

2. Fnarf & elenchos: Obama specifcially promised to a specific group of American voters the use of the specific word genocide. This has been their specific and explicit "ask" for decades. He did to get their votes. Now, he's fucked them.

It doesn't matter how you twist it or argue it.....you're such incredible apologists for Obama you'll say anything to excuse thios cowardly act.

And for someone who gets all worked up about pit bull's due process rights versus breed bans, good god, have a bit more compassion about any human group that suffered genocide, ok?
Posted by PC on April 26, 2009 at 8:12 PM
21
Here is what Obama actually said at the press conference. It's a side-step, sure. He called it a genocide in the past, but when asked to call it a genocide with Turkey's President in the room he demurred, saying, "my view's have not changed." As far as side steps go that's pretty minor. You might even call it diplomatic. He then says that Turkey is moving in the right direction with respect to dealing with history, which does put some of the onus on President Gul and Turkey to acknowledge the genocide.

See: http://www.hayem.org/armenian-diaspora/2…

Q Thank you, Mr. President. As a U.S. senator you stood with the Armenian-American community in calling for Turkey's acknowledgement of the Armenian genocide and you also supported the passage of the Armenian genocide resolution. You said, as President you would recognize the genocide. And my question for you is, have you changed your view, and did you ask President Gul to recognize the genocide by name?

PRESIDENT OBAMA: Well, my views are on the record and I have not changed views. What I have been very encouraged by is news that under President Gul's leadership, you are seeing a series of negotiations, a process, in place between Armenia and Turkey to resolve a whole host of longstanding issues, including this one.

I want to be as encouraging as possible around those negotiations which are moving forward and could bear fruit very quickly very soon. And so as a consequence, what I want to do is not focus on my views right now but focus on the views of the Turkish and the Armenian people. If they can move forward and deal with a difficult and tragic history, then I think the entire world should encourage them.

And so what I told the President was I want to be as constructive as possible in moving these issues forward quickly. And my sense is, is that they are moving quickly. I don't want to, as the President of the United States, preempt any possible arrangements or announcements that might be made in the near future. I just want to say that we are going to be a partner in working through these issues in such a way that the most important parties, the Turks and the Armenians, are finally coming to terms in a constructive way.

-----------

By way of contrast, here is a video of Obama calling the genocide a genocide when he was a Senator. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwR83GZjw…
More...
Posted by aff on April 26, 2009 at 10:22 PM
22
aff- this is not what we are talking about. We are talking about Obama's press release sent out on April 24th. Not the April 6th conference you link.
Obama was afraid to call it a Genocide with Gul in the room or him out of it.

To think that the leader of the most powerful nation in the world would pull a Neville Chamberland appeasement move for a slimy creep like Gul, is astounding. That guy hates gays, women and advocates torture of minorities in his country.
Obama displayed a stunning lack of balls and honesty on this one.
Posted by If we just give him parts of Czechoslovokia, he'll be cool on April 26, 2009 at 10:56 PM
23
Obama is being a complete Puss-bag. I didn't vote for this guy so he could be a wimpy politician-type with no huevos in his bolsa. I voted for him so he could dominate in the paint and draw the foul! He can say what needs to be said and still get Turkey to play ball. They aren't going to sever all ties with the west and start burning effigies of Mr. O becuse he mentions a widly accepeted historical fact in a speech. I think Henry David Thoreau said it best when he said "Obama's not as cool as all you wankers think."
Posted by General Euphoria on April 27, 2009 at 8:28 AM
24
Obama should not rest until the Ottoman Empire is broken up.

He has also failed to hold the Carthagians accountable for eating babies.
Posted by Mike on April 27, 2009 at 9:09 AM
25
@18: so why does it matter so much to the turks?

I'm really dissapointed in Obama right now.
Posted by guy on April 27, 2009 at 9:38 AM
26
I think what makes this worse is that Obama actively campaigned on this. He didn't have to go out on a limb during the campaign and say anything about this genocide, and yet he did. Shame on Obama, not only for caving to Turkey (which is ridiculous) but also by reneging on his promise to so many people for no real legit reason.

*shakes head*
Posted by Original Monique on April 27, 2009 at 9:48 AM
27
@22 - oops. I missed that this was about the April 24th speech. Here is hoping Obama calls it a genocide soon.

Side question: do you support Turkey's bid to join the EU? Would you want to link the Armenia genocide issue to that?
Posted by aff on April 27, 2009 at 11:13 AM
28
Yes, it is a basic confirmation of maturity as a country that they face up to the past, however Turkey's human rights abuses are so severe (which I feel is connected to thier childish refusal to admit that their grandfathers were sick fucks) they have little chance of getting in the EU.
France was so appalled at Turkey's behavior at the recent conference in Strasbourge (where they screamed and whined that Denmark needed to censor their press) that they withdrew all support for Turkey's membership in the EU permently.
Posted by BLC on April 27, 2009 at 11:42 AM
29
I want to thank everyone that wrote supportive comments.

If you are interested in writing a quick note to Obama and your representative regarding this and urging them to recognize the Armenian Genocide- click here:
http://www.capwiz.com/anca/issues/alert/…

Anyone interested in learning more should read "The Burning Tigris" by Peter Balakian. There are several first person accounts that if anyone is interested, I can make a list for them.

To Fnarf: I am not "the Armenian" I am an American of Armenian descent or just an American.
And as noted this is not a cosmetic or symbolic move.
Are we a Nixon era country governed by crass 'realpolitik' willing to bend our ideals to criminal countries that do not share our democratic values? Or are we a country that can stand up to human rights abuses?
I feel that refusing to compromise with dirty countries is the best way to reform them, not patronizingly trying some 'White man's Burden" condescending policy.
Posted by Nevdon on April 27, 2009 at 12:15 PM
30
#1 & #10 - see #19. Obama made this promise. He should not have made it if he did not intend to keep it. We were interested in CHANGE.
Posted by subwlf on April 27, 2009 at 2:47 PM

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