Slog
News & ArtsFriday, April 24, 2009
News The Boy
Posted by Charles Mudede on Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:38 PM
The narrative:
ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) — Eleven-year-old Jaheem Herrera woke up on April 16 acting strangely. He wasn't hungry and he didn't want to go to school.
But the outgoing fifth grader packed his bag and went to school at Dunaire Elementary School in DeKalb County, Georgia.He came home much happier than when he left in the morning, smiling as he handed his mother, Masika Bermudez, a glowing report card full of A's and B's. She gave him a high-five and he went upstairs to his room as she prepared dinner.
A little later, when his younger sister called him to come down to eat, Jaheem didn't answer.
So mother and daughter climbed the stairs to Jaheem's room and opened the door.
Jaheem was hanging by his belt in the closet.
The interpretation:
Jaheem Herrera's mother thinks he hanged himself because he was perpetually bullied at school.
Bullying made an eleven-year-old boy put a belt around his neck and hang himself from his bedroom door? How can this be? How can you be bullied if you do not fear death? The latter, the absence of fear, removes the very ground the former, fear, stands on. Because being bullied can not be worse than the fear of death itself, we can conclude that something other than bullying was troubling this boy's life.
1
People kill themselves when life is no longer worth living, or death seems less painful than continuing on.
3
Charles. We can't conclude this. False premise on false premise. When life is unbearable, death is an answer.
4
it's suicide 101: the pain of what you know seems infinitely more awful than the (alleged) pain of what you don't know. the fear of death is still there, but drowned out by your present misery. you just want it to stop. sleeping feels pretty good, but being dead sounds even better.
so is it that you don't understand despair, or you don't understand bullying?
so is it that you don't understand despair, or you don't understand bullying?
5
evidence: a rash of suicides across the nation by kids who were also bullied
reasoning: you can't be bullied if you don't "fear death"
conclusion: not _one_ of these kids committed suicide because of bullying.
um....what?
And anyway, who said the victims don't fear death? You've never done anything you were afraid to do?
reasoning: you can't be bullied if you don't "fear death"
conclusion: not _one_ of these kids committed suicide because of bullying.
um....what?
And anyway, who said the victims don't fear death? You've never done anything you were afraid to do?
6
Let's just be thankful he didn't get his hands on a gun and decide to take some of his classmates with him.
7
What #2 said. The fear in question is the fear of _pain_ (whether physical or psychological), not death. Death is an end to pain, and therefore can be seen as an escape outlet. The two are very different.
Of course, not every child who gets bullied hangs themselves, so yes, something else was going on too. But your logic on this point is faulty.
Incidentally, I saw a great story somewhere about a guy who had resolved to throw himself off the Golden Gate bridge but had been stymied because he couldn't figure out how to cross the street safely. Same principle. :)
Of course, not every child who gets bullied hangs themselves, so yes, something else was going on too. But your logic on this point is faulty.
Incidentally, I saw a great story somewhere about a guy who had resolved to throw himself off the Golden Gate bridge but had been stymied because he couldn't figure out how to cross the street safely. Same principle. :)
8
where in the "narrative" did it claim the 12 did not fear death? most 12 year old boys fear many things: girls, bullies, parents, getting in trouble, vegetables, doing something stupid in front of their peers, getting called on in class, dressing up, bed time, etc. Surely death fits on their fear list...
Nice try Chuckie, must be a slow day for you...
ddv
Nice try Chuckie, must be a slow day for you...
ddv
10
Being bullied has nothing to do with fear of death. It has everything to do with fear of pain, fear of humiliation, fear of the disesteem of your peers. And, generally speaking, not just the fear of these things, but the reality of these things. Charles, you have some surprising blind spots.
11
Bullying makes life unbearable. I surmise that you do not understand what is meant by bullying or what bullying entails, especially nowadays. It's so unbearable that death is then not feared but welcomed as the only way out.
Your inability to intuitively grasp this with the compassion and empathy all human beings have is quite surprising and profoundly disturbing...
Your inability to intuitively grasp this with the compassion and empathy all human beings have is quite surprising and profoundly disturbing...
12
If you are defending bullying, as you appear to be, you're going to set a new comments record here. You've never been more wrong.
13
Without knowing the family history of this individual, we know very little about the suicide.
Some families have a very high level of suicides or attempted suicides - others don't.
If he was in the latter group, then bullying might have been a major factor.
If the former group, probably not.
Some families have a very high level of suicides or attempted suicides - others don't.
If he was in the latter group, then bullying might have been a major factor.
If the former group, probably not.
15
How you considered that your experience of bullying as a child, may not bear any resemblance to this child's experience of bullying? And that your conception of death (something to fear or not fear) may not bear any resemblance to this child's (something that can end my suffering)?
16
Is Charles an idiot? Valid question, I ask because this post is idiotic.
As for fear of death, its all about relative fear. I fear death, but I fear other things more. If I was faced with those other things, I would choose death.
As for fear of death, its all about relative fear. I fear death, but I fear other things more. If I was faced with those other things, I would choose death.
17
FAIL. This is the dumbest, most offensive thing I have ever read on slog...and that's saying something.
18
It's really heartening to see so many people who "get it" about the difference between fearing a repeat of an agony that one has experienced vs. fearing an unexperienced mystery. Mixing in the onset of hormonal changes, perhaps, in this case, simply exacerbates the tension.
I won't berate Charles, because his view provoked a lot of great responses. ^..^
I won't berate Charles, because his view provoked a lot of great responses. ^..^
19
Chaz, never go to law school. Your tenuous logic would probably make you an OLC attorney in no time.
21
Man Charles - You graduated some sort of university with some sort of philosophy degree, didn't you? Did that not include some basic course on logic and logical fallacies? For someone that things they know philosophy, you consistently (for your sake, I hope intentionally) fail at the basics. Your post is a failure of compassion, logic, ethics, philosophy and morals.
22
Gotta go with the consensus of previous comments here, Charles.
I have Asperger's. Middle school was a special kind of hell.
I sure didn't need to lose my fear of death to think, 'i don't know where i'm going, i just hope it won't be here.'
Fear and loathing of the here and now can sure overwhelm your fear of the there and when.
I have Asperger's. Middle school was a special kind of hell.
I sure didn't need to lose my fear of death to think, 'i don't know where i'm going, i just hope it won't be here.'
Fear and loathing of the here and now can sure overwhelm your fear of the there and when.
24
Charles - You have a fully developed adult brain - not the brain of an eleven year old child. And, a troubled mind at that. Solutions seem impossible. Things appear to have life long consequences.
26
Charles,
I don't know enough about this tragedy or this boy's family situation to comment on it. But, I disagree. I doubt he feared death. I believe boys in general, don't fear death as much as they fear their fathers. It's the fear of overwhelming authority and strength (a father or father fiqure) vs. something mysterious and far off (timewise) because they are too young and ignorant (death). I believe that is why there is a high rate of violent death among teenage boys. That and easy access to hand guns. They simply don't have any fear especially with a weapon in hand.
I don't know enough about this tragedy or this boy's family situation to comment on it. But, I disagree. I doubt he feared death. I believe boys in general, don't fear death as much as they fear their fathers. It's the fear of overwhelming authority and strength (a father or father fiqure) vs. something mysterious and far off (timewise) because they are too young and ignorant (death). I believe that is why there is a high rate of violent death among teenage boys. That and easy access to hand guns. They simply don't have any fear especially with a weapon in hand.
27
@17: this isn't even the dumbest, most offensive thing I've read from Charles.
That being said, Charles, this is ridiculous, bullshit, and completely wrong reasoning.
That being said, Charles, this is ridiculous, bullshit, and completely wrong reasoning.
28
to be honest, i went to a british boys school. the american thing with bullying makes no sense to me. none.
29
@25 My personal theory is that "Charles" is not a real person but a cleverly composed computerized Turing-Test, in order to determine if we, the readers, can tell the difference.
My theory is bolstered by the lack of humanity in this post, relying instead on cold (if fallacious) logic.
My theory is bolstered by the lack of humanity in this post, relying instead on cold (if fallacious) logic.
31
@ 28 are you saying that bullying doesn't happen in British boys schools, or that you were too cool to have let it bother you? Either one makes you an asshole; your inability to understand is not something to brag about.
32
With all due respect, Mr Mudede, perhaps this is an element of American culture that you missed by not growing up and spending your adolescence here. Lots and lots and lots -thousands- of adolescents and teens conclude that death is easier than being bullied. The nation should be outraged at our youth suicide rates, but we just shrug instead.
33
@28 Charles: I'm guessing that you somehow either weren't a particular victim of bullying at your British boys' school, or maybe you were one of the bullies? I'm quite certain that your nonchalance about bullying would not be shared by the targets of bullying at your school. There is a terrific organization in the UK now called BullyingUK. Here is what they do:
http://www.bullying.co.uk/about/whowehel…
The antibullying thing is by **no** means an American phenomenon; in most ways the UK is actually leaps and bounds ahead of the US in addressing bullying and giving kids resources to cope with it and schools to stamp it out. The UK is a true leader in taking on this problem. Your boys' school notwithstanding...
http://www.bullying.co.uk/about/whowehel…
The antibullying thing is by **no** means an American phenomenon; in most ways the UK is actually leaps and bounds ahead of the US in addressing bullying and giving kids resources to cope with it and schools to stamp it out. The UK is a true leader in taking on this problem. Your boys' school notwithstanding...
34
Mudede posts are what happen when a society tells everyone that they're special and then encourages them to write.
35
The regulars whine about trolls but the treatment of Charles by the regulars sickens the trolls with it's lack of humanity and class.
36
It isn't death most people fear. It is the pain involved. You fear the pain of being stabbed or shot, or fear the sensation of drowning, or fear the pain of a crippling illness as your internal organs self-destruct, or fear that you'll loose your mind to Alzheimer's or whatever. Death is actually the end of that pain.
For someone who is suicidal, the mental pain of whatever is troubling them exceeds the fear of the pain of dying.
For someone who is suicidal, the mental pain of whatever is troubling them exceeds the fear of the pain of dying.
38
Charles,
Along with many other people on the comment section, I disagree with your take on the tragic incident. I agree with #27's sentiments.
Plus, bullying can definitely have some psychological impact on an impressionable eleven year old, especially when social networking becomes a huge importance in their life as a pre-teen. I will not claim that this was true for Jaheem, but it is a possibility.
Just because YOU think he didn't commit suicide due to bullying, does not make it automatically "oh, he doesn't fear death".
Along with many other people on the comment section, I disagree with your take on the tragic incident. I agree with #27's sentiments.
Plus, bullying can definitely have some psychological impact on an impressionable eleven year old, especially when social networking becomes a huge importance in their life as a pre-teen. I will not claim that this was true for Jaheem, but it is a possibility.
Just because YOU think he didn't commit suicide due to bullying, does not make it automatically "oh, he doesn't fear death".
39
Chuck Mudede is so wrong so often that I have come to the conclusion that he is trolling us; he's trying to provoke philosophical discussion in the Slog, and he can't do that when we would all just nod in agreement.
40
I live outside of the USA and have noticed that the same peer pressure that exists in the States does not exist in other parts of the world.
I understand Charles question. Death in the mind of an adult is much scarier than bullying and is something that as an adult we just ignore.
The only problem with this post is that Charles is not thinking as a boy or an American boy.
I understand Charles question. Death in the mind of an adult is much scarier than bullying and is something that as an adult we just ignore.
The only problem with this post is that Charles is not thinking as a boy or an American boy.
41
"How can you be bullied if you do not fear death? The latter, the absence of fear, removes the very ground the former, fear, stands on. Because being bullied can not be worse than the fear of death itself, we can conclude that something other than bullying was troubling this boy's life."
the obvious willful obtuseness and huge leaps in logic evidenced in that statement are staggering, and all to make a contrived point, a pathetic stupid point.
&
"the american thing with bullying makes no sense to me."
no? really? hard to believe, cause you seem so knowing about the subject 'n all.
and fwiw, I like your take on things for the most part.
the obvious willful obtuseness and huge leaps in logic evidenced in that statement are staggering, and all to make a contrived point, a pathetic stupid point.
&
"the american thing with bullying makes no sense to me."
no? really? hard to believe, cause you seem so knowing about the subject 'n all.
and fwiw, I like your take on things for the most part.
43
If you guys read the article, he was bullied and taunted with being called Gay when he probably wasn't.
I e-mailed Dan and the Stranger staff this link, http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/d…, on Tuesday afternoon. Now it's Friday and they finally get around to posting it???
Bermudez says bullies at school pushed Jaheem over the edge. He complained about being called gay, ugly and "the virgin" because he was from the Virgin Islands, she said.
"He used to say Mom they keep telling me this ... this gay word, this gay, gay, gay. I'm tired of hearing it, they're telling me the same thing over and over," she told CNN, as she wiped away tears from her face.
I e-mailed Dan and the Stranger staff this link, http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/d…, on Tuesday afternoon. Now it's Friday and they finally get around to posting it???
45
I don't really care about Charles understanding or lack thereof as to why this boy took his life. The facts are just too terrifying; my thoughts go irresistibly to my own sweet wonderful children, and I want be home with them right now.
46
This is the worse opinion I have ever read on Slog. I am not one to find fault in any posts by Charles but this one crossed the line and far worse than any troll we read here either. I have to think it was done to get a reaction. A lot of stuff is posted here to get a reaction but this completely crossed the line in a way not even Savage has been able to do.
47
Such a disconnect from the reality of what it's like to be a person is stunning. But I have to say it's not surprising coming from Charles Mudede.
49
@45
Big Sven, I always like your posts (and your blog). I hope I get to meet you sometime. You seem incredibly sweet.
Big Sven, I always like your posts (and your blog). I hope I get to meet you sometime. You seem incredibly sweet.
51
Our children are the canaries in the coal mine. When they resort to torture, they deny people's dignity. They learn this disrespect from their parents. R.I.P. poor child.
53
__________ made an eleven-year-old boy put a belt around his neck and hang himself from his bedroom door? How can this be? How can you __________ if you do not fear death? The latter, the absence of fear, removes the very ground the former, fear, stands on. Because __________ can not be worse than the fear of death itself, we can conclude that something other than __________ was troubling this boy's life.
54
charles.. 50 some odd posts ( i didn't read most of em and i'm sure it's beeen said , but i'll say it again. even an eleven year old knows that for some death is a relief from a life not worth living, too painful to live.
i was eleven once and felt exactly the same way.
exactly.
i was eleven once and felt exactly the same way.
exactly.
56
What Simac and Fnarf said. Usually I'm not bothered by Mudede's articles but this one bothers me. A lot. Mudede's pondering is pointless and his conclusion is wrong. Flat-out plain wrong. Does he not remember what being an eleven-year-old was like?
57
@40. Very true, this: "The only problem with this post is that Charles is not thinking as a boy or an American boy."
Charles believes that if this boy had the confidence to not fear death, then he would be so confident that there is no way that someone would bully him. But, this is a very adult, intellectual way of thinking about what happened. From what we can tell, the boy was suffering and he saw death as a way to end that suffering.
BTW, Charles, I think that it is your tone of certainty here ("we can conclude"), in addition to your premise, that is rubbing people the wrong way.
Charles believes that if this boy had the confidence to not fear death, then he would be so confident that there is no way that someone would bully him. But, this is a very adult, intellectual way of thinking about what happened. From what we can tell, the boy was suffering and he saw death as a way to end that suffering.
BTW, Charles, I think that it is your tone of certainty here ("we can conclude"), in addition to your premise, that is rubbing people the wrong way.
58
No, Charles. The kid was probably so tired of being terrified and hurt that death seemed like a better option.
I'm sorry but in this case I have to agree with the mob: you're wrong, you're insensitive, and you're a jackass.
I'm sorry but in this case I have to agree with the mob: you're wrong, you're insensitive, and you're a jackass.
59
@52,
I see. Nevermind then.
@56,
Did you miss the dust-up over Mudede saying young boys shouldn't cry? I don't think this can compare. This post demonstrates ignorance more than callousness.
I see. Nevermind then.
@56,
Did you miss the dust-up over Mudede saying young boys shouldn't cry? I don't think this can compare. This post demonstrates ignorance more than callousness.
60
M. j. again.
Btw when our media leaders can't even figure out that if we don't prosecute those who orders led to torturing AZ and KSM 83 or 183 times, we are damned barbarians, it's not too hard to figure out that 11 year olds will be just as barbaric.
Btw when our media leaders can't even figure out that if we don't prosecute those who orders led to torturing AZ and KSM 83 or 183 times, we are damned barbarians, it's not too hard to figure out that 11 year olds will be just as barbaric.
61
This is utter bullshit, a term I rarely use and never in public.
I taught middle school. I watched kids get bullied. I watched bullies systematically destroy one kid's self esteem, and by the end, his mental state. I punished the bullies (which made it worse for the kid being bullied) and I tried to intervene, but there is a limit to what a classroom teacher can do if the administration doesn support her/him. Bullying can absolutely lead a kid to suicide - or a murderous rampage.
I taught middle school. I watched kids get bullied. I watched bullies systematically destroy one kid's self esteem, and by the end, his mental state. I punished the bullies (which made it worse for the kid being bullied) and I tried to intervene, but there is a limit to what a classroom teacher can do if the administration doesn support her/him. Bullying can absolutely lead a kid to suicide - or a murderous rampage.
62
Charles,
Here's what you're not seeing. In the last two weeks, there have been 2 prepubescent boys of color who've committed suicide because their peers repeatedly called them "gay" while the school administration, who appear to be comprised of minorities as well, turned a blind eye to it and let this crap continue. The issue here is that in minority communities, especially the black community (FYI: before you flame me, I'm black), it's not "masculine" to be a young black person who's intelligent and doesn't belong to the ghetto/thug wannabes. So they call us "gay", "pussies", "sissies", etc because we don't strive to be like 50 cent, flo-rida, the game, etc.
So Charles, quit looking at this boy's death as some exercise in existentialism and look at the fact that American black culture, has issues with youth who try to follow the road less traveled.
Here's what you're not seeing. In the last two weeks, there have been 2 prepubescent boys of color who've committed suicide because their peers repeatedly called them "gay" while the school administration, who appear to be comprised of minorities as well, turned a blind eye to it and let this crap continue. The issue here is that in minority communities, especially the black community (FYI: before you flame me, I'm black), it's not "masculine" to be a young black person who's intelligent and doesn't belong to the ghetto/thug wannabes. So they call us "gay", "pussies", "sissies", etc because we don't strive to be like 50 cent, flo-rida, the game, etc.
So Charles, quit looking at this boy's death as some exercise in existentialism and look at the fact that American black culture, has issues with youth who try to follow the road less traveled.
63
@48 - you're thinking of the other black prepubescent boy who hung himself for being called gay...
64
yeh that was pretty fucking stupid for reasons thoroughly discussed already. set down the bong and the nietzsche and apologize.
65
damn.. now this shit is under my craw.. charles, did you miss the part where he didn't tell his mom how bad the bullying was because he didn't want to hurt HER ? so he bore his pain after he told other people , the people he was supposed to tell. but nobody took him seriously and nobody believed that it was as bad as it was. and he came home and was cheerful even, because he didn't want to be a bother to anyone and then he hung himself.
you have never had enough pain in your life that you wanted to die ?
man.. some people really have it a lot easier than others...
you have never had enough pain in your life that you wanted to die ?
man.. some people really have it a lot easier than others...
66
@60 Stop trying to hijack threads. Your comment, although attempting to be tangentially relevant, is off-topic.
67
I'm glad I'm not the only one taken aback by Charles's conclusion. I kind of agree with comment 39, this post seems like trolling. It's perfect because everyone believes he's being genuine.
69
"How can you be bullied if you do not fear death?"
Do you imagine that bullies threaten the bullied with death? That's almost never how it works.
Surely you can imagine situations where people wish for death. Extreme physical pain (as in torture or long-standing painful diseases), personal failure (as with the AIG CEO), fear or psychosis. If you can imagine those things, then it shouldn't be hard for you to imagine how a child, who, after all, has fewer defenses against these things than an adult, might slip from wishing for death to suicide. If you can't imagine those things, I'm sure a 10-minute acquaintanceship with Wikipedia's suicide article can furnish some help.
Do you imagine that bullies threaten the bullied with death? That's almost never how it works.
Surely you can imagine situations where people wish for death. Extreme physical pain (as in torture or long-standing painful diseases), personal failure (as with the AIG CEO), fear or psychosis. If you can imagine those things, then it shouldn't be hard for you to imagine how a child, who, after all, has fewer defenses against these things than an adult, might slip from wishing for death to suicide. If you can't imagine those things, I'm sure a 10-minute acquaintanceship with Wikipedia's suicide article can furnish some help.
71
Holy shit... By the amount of posts, you would have thought Grandpa dropped the n-word at a football game. (stole that joke from Bill Maher)
72
As others have intimated, it's not as simplistic as the fear of death weighed against the fear of bullying. It's about the cessation of pain.
Your logic would argue that a terminally ill person who's not afraid to die should stay and suffer their illness rather than choose to end their life early.
I think this may also be about an individual taking back some control of their life. There is a reason that assisted suicide legislation has been styled "Death with Dignity" laws.
Your logic would argue that a terminally ill person who's not afraid to die should stay and suffer their illness rather than choose to end their life early.
I think this may also be about an individual taking back some control of their life. There is a reason that assisted suicide legislation has been styled "Death with Dignity" laws.
73
There are times in which it is acceptable, though not desired, for you to employ your obnoxious brand of assigning fake explanations to real events. This is not one of those times.
75
This is the stupidest statement that has ever been associated with The Stranger. I went to a British Boys School too, that's got sweet FA to do with this and is a pathetic excuse for your insensitive and offensive comment.
77
It is part of the human condition that when something is repeated over and over many people will believe it, especially children. This is a scientifically proven fact. Regardless of why the boy killed himself, bullying is not something that should be allowed in our schools on the taxpayer’s dime.
78
@66, you well know groupthink is the disease I am attacking, and the common thread, uniting (a) torture defenders (b) bullies in general (c) as another poster notes, USA black males who bully to death a black kid cuz he studies, and (d) knee jerk reactions that reflexively attack someone for minor violations of pretended rules, in a hissy, passive agressive way, avoiding the substance raised.
It's all dumb groupthink.
That on topic enough for you?
It's all dumb groupthink.
That on topic enough for you?
79
Charles, seriously, between this post and that one about your daughter, you really have no clue how children work at all. PLEASE read some parenting books and take some classes and get a counselor's guidance. I worry for your daughter, and any other children who might ever listen to you.
80
When as a young kid your self-esteem is blown to smithereens, and it seems nobody can help you or effectively stop the bullying, and you start believing you are as much a piece of shit as the bullies say you are (when you get shit on over and over and over.. that happens), you start feeling embarrassed just for existing and have no will left to fight back. And I can imagine that if it goes far enough you'll start thinking often, I wish I were dead, when there's all this pressure on you to go to a school which feels like a cold-hearted prison where you're the most worthless kid out of hundreds or thousands of students. Makes perfect sense to me why kids feel suicidal over bullying. My question is, who the fuck are the parents of the bullies?? Probably either troubled/damaged parents or the type who encouraged their kids to be jock asshole ass-kickers. Parents of the bullied should raise their kids to be tougher though.
81
Charles, you are an idiot. This is the most inane, ridiculous post you've ever made. Maybe that I've ever seen on Slog. Go back and play in that train tunnel, please.
83
Charles, please return to posting about such things as raspberry-flavored particles at the core of the universe.
Thank you.
Thank you.
84
You know, i don't think there is such a thing a tenure at a newspaper... and also, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of people out of jobs in journalism right now (anyway that's what I've read!) It's great to watch out for your own and all, but i think it's about time to come to grips with the completely off-base, ignorant, and offensive things that Charles Mudede writes. It's not entertaining any longer.
DTMFA
DTMFA
85
Please allow me to quote Jude Fawley @2
Fear of suffering does not equal fear of death.That is, after all, the basic assumption upon which torture operates. Torture victims are kept from dying against their best efforts.
86
Gotta chime in with the chorus:
You need to educate yourself before you talk about suicide again.
Until you do, please don't float your inaccurate theories about it in public.
Charles, normally I'm fine with and occasionally enjoy your navel-gazing, hazy, pop-zen posts and articles, but you clearly didn't do your research here. It's insulting and demeaning to anyone with the real and life-threatening disease of depression. Please do us the courtesy of adult journalism next time.
You need to educate yourself before you talk about suicide again.
Until you do, please don't float your inaccurate theories about it in public.
Charles, normally I'm fine with and occasionally enjoy your navel-gazing, hazy, pop-zen posts and articles, but you clearly didn't do your research here. It's insulting and demeaning to anyone with the real and life-threatening disease of depression. Please do us the courtesy of adult journalism next time.
87
Faulty logic combined with a disturbingly profound lack of empathy. Caustic bullshit clumsily dressed up in pretentious academic ethical/philosophical jargon. Charles, get a real job, you fucking wanker.
88
move #1 move in the asshole handbook is:
diminishing the plight of others for your own aggrandizement; and Charles only sweetens the deal by bullying a person when they are dead. This attitude is a huge part of the problem? This is such macho-retro shit.
blech.
diminishing the plight of others for your own aggrandizement; and Charles only sweetens the deal by bullying a person when they are dead. This attitude is a huge part of the problem? This is such macho-retro shit.
blech.
90
Another senseless death. Due in part to the slippery slope of the introduction of overtly sexual subjects (of all sorts) our kids are bombarded with every day even from the TV to their schools. Fragile minds like those of an 11 year old cannot comprehend these types of subjects that are difficult to grasp for even some adults, so confusion takes hold. But Mr Mudede has a point here, more than bullying per se the real issue that needs to be addressed here is where was the father (biological) of this kid when he needed him to provide him with the type of guidance and example a boy transitioning into being a preteen needs to have. That period is a crucial one in a boy's life and from the looks of it his stepfather was unable or did not care enough to fulfill that role.
91
Ohhh god NOO, a LovesChild post on an already contentious thread. it'll make the universe splode or somthing. help me, feck. hey give me some of those nachos.
92
The parody is translucent, Loveschild. If you want to remain the Stephen Colbert of Sloggytown, I suggest some fine tuning.
93
do you think if we all call Loveschild "gay" enough we can get her to commit suicide? then, at least, some good might come from bullying.
@Loveschild: Even without sexual influences in their media, the Islamic world seems to get enough people who want to commit suicide. Why? Because their people are suffering - just as our people would suffer under your prayed-for christofacist regime.
@Loveschild: Even without sexual influences in their media, the Islamic world seems to get enough people who want to commit suicide. Why? Because their people are suffering - just as our people would suffer under your prayed-for christofacist regime.
94
Is Charles on a suicide watch tonight? With all this (predictable) bullying going on, maybe he was trying to make a statement.
"How so?" you wonder. "That would make no sense."
Exactly.
"How so?" you wonder. "That would make no sense."
Exactly.
95
Charles, you know you've done wrong when Loveschild agrees with you.
That said, I hope you're not on suicide watch.
That said, I hope you're not on suicide watch.
96
LC, what the hell are you talking about? Bullying and teen suicide existed long before television, never mind Family Guy or whatever boogeyman you want to partially blame this boy's suicide on. And you're leaping to conclusions as to where his father was.
98
96 The father appears to have been absent from the boys life and that's the problem I'm pointing at. And yes suicide has existed before television but not at the same scale and with such young kids, for once please leave your biases aside and try to grasp reality. In our current permissive environment where 5 year olds are being taught about adult matters in schools and where parents are handing over their kids education to TV and the net this will sadly be the end result.
99
@90 - When I was a kid around 35 years ago, boys were taunted with the word "gay." It's not new, and it's not necessarily overtly sexual. It's mainly just a humiliating name to call someone. If the term was "blue," then they would bully kids by calling them blue.
I repeat my comment that I made back at #47.
I repeat my comment that I made back at #47.
100
Mr. Mudede, that post was pretty crass, insensitive, and ignorant.
I was harassed in the 4th and 5th grade. I transferred in from out of town, and up till then had been popular at my previous grade school. (My mother made it very clear I was to be nice to everyone and not tease or exclude.) My new school was clearly divided into "haves" and "have nots". The "haves" were pampered brats who'd never heard the word "no" in their entire lives. I, for some reason, was lumped into "have nots". The teachers happily turned a blind eye to the bullying "haves". If a "have not" snitched the bullying got worse because the bullies were not punished. If a "have not" retaliated (whether it was words or fists), they were punished! My new classmates made every single day of my life a living hell. Their abuse was so filthy it was actually pornographic. So pornographic, that when I tried to tell my parents about it, I was too horribly ashamed to tell them exactly what was said. They knew something was wrong because I transformed from a very outgoing cheerful person to an angry, bitter, suspicious, and yes, suicidal one. They'd ask, "Well, what could they possibly be calling you? How bad could it be?" Eventually, I reached a snapping point and blurted out, word for word, exactly what was said to me. The looks of complete and utter shock on their faces, I'll remember to this day. "A child at school says that too you? In front of the teacher?" They couldn't believe it. (The grew up in the 50's and "That kind of thing never happened..") They went to the school and the teacher and admin more or less told them to fuck off. They went to the school board, who also told them to fuck off. They went to the police (because things were escalating) and were told fuck off. They eventually shrugged their shoulders and told me their was nothing anybody could do....(like take me out of that stupid school and put me in the one down the street, Assholes!). I realized I was on my own and eventually wound up punching and kicking a lot of people....and reading Star Trek hard covers (the genre was lame but they made the best weapons). Until middle school (and a return to my home town), my only comfort were Mr. Spock and a wise quote by George Washington.
I have never been the same since I was bullied. I am no longer a nice person...and all my sympathy after a kid goes bat-shit crazy and shoots up a school (along with it's bullies and blind-eye teachers) is with the killer.
More...
I was harassed in the 4th and 5th grade. I transferred in from out of town, and up till then had been popular at my previous grade school. (My mother made it very clear I was to be nice to everyone and not tease or exclude.) My new school was clearly divided into "haves" and "have nots". The "haves" were pampered brats who'd never heard the word "no" in their entire lives. I, for some reason, was lumped into "have nots". The teachers happily turned a blind eye to the bullying "haves". If a "have not" snitched the bullying got worse because the bullies were not punished. If a "have not" retaliated (whether it was words or fists), they were punished! My new classmates made every single day of my life a living hell. Their abuse was so filthy it was actually pornographic. So pornographic, that when I tried to tell my parents about it, I was too horribly ashamed to tell them exactly what was said. They knew something was wrong because I transformed from a very outgoing cheerful person to an angry, bitter, suspicious, and yes, suicidal one. They'd ask, "Well, what could they possibly be calling you? How bad could it be?" Eventually, I reached a snapping point and blurted out, word for word, exactly what was said to me. The looks of complete and utter shock on their faces, I'll remember to this day. "A child at school says that too you? In front of the teacher?" They couldn't believe it. (The grew up in the 50's and "That kind of thing never happened..") They went to the school and the teacher and admin more or less told them to fuck off. They went to the school board, who also told them to fuck off. They went to the police (because things were escalating) and were told fuck off. They eventually shrugged their shoulders and told me their was nothing anybody could do....(like take me out of that stupid school and put me in the one down the street, Assholes!). I realized I was on my own and eventually wound up punching and kicking a lot of people....and reading Star Trek hard covers (the genre was lame but they made the best weapons). Until middle school (and a return to my home town), my only comfort were Mr. Spock and a wise quote by George Washington.
I have never been the same since I was bullied. I am no longer a nice person...and all my sympathy after a kid goes bat-shit crazy and shoots up a school (along with it's bullies and blind-eye teachers) is with the killer.
101
This is so sad. I'm a survivor of relentless childhood bullying and remember thinking that quietly offing myself would be the only way to end the torture to which my teachers (with a few exceptions) and both parents turned a blind eye. I recently turned 47 and am still dealing with self esteem issues related to my experience. I say this not to start a pity party but because, Charles, you have touched a nerve.
I've been thinking a lot about this subject as there have been ten-year-anniversary stories all this week about Columbine. What those guys did, I must confess, wasn't entirely absent from my thoughts at that age either. Luckily, I did violence against neither others or myself; I dealt by doing my best to become invisible. That was high school for me. To take such a flippant attitude toward this subject is, in my opinion, unconscionable.
I hope this poor kid is in a better place.
I've been thinking a lot about this subject as there have been ten-year-anniversary stories all this week about Columbine. What those guys did, I must confess, wasn't entirely absent from my thoughts at that age either. Luckily, I did violence against neither others or myself; I dealt by doing my best to become invisible. That was high school for me. To take such a flippant attitude toward this subject is, in my opinion, unconscionable.
I hope this poor kid is in a better place.
102
LC: "yes suicide has existed before television but not at the same scale and with such young kids..."
Sources please? I don't know what the rate was, but young children killing themselves is nothing new. Unless you can cite some facts, you don't know what's "reality" either.
Yes, it appears that the boy's father was absent, but you don't know what the circumstances are. Did he abandon the family like you imply? Is he in the army in Iraq? Is he dead? Knowing the answer to that affects your point.
Sources please? I don't know what the rate was, but young children killing themselves is nothing new. Unless you can cite some facts, you don't know what's "reality" either.
Yes, it appears that the boy's father was absent, but you don't know what the circumstances are. Did he abandon the family like you imply? Is he in the army in Iraq? Is he dead? Knowing the answer to that affects your point.
104
Let me just add my voice to the chorus of those who are appalled by Mudede's cluelessness, callousness, and just plain wrongheadedness in making this conclusion. And regardless of what the cause, this was a horrible thing, and we should be offering our sympathies and condolences to the family rather than using this tragedy to make some point. I can't even figure out what your post is trying to accomplish, apart from making me wonder just what, exactly, your problem is.
I don't usually like to rant, but this post was just so emotionally, viscerally disgusting in its tone that I had to say something.
I don't usually like to rant, but this post was just so emotionally, viscerally disgusting in its tone that I had to say something.
105
i want to insist that bullying is not the problem here. mental illness is most likely the root of this tragedy. i would go for the biological over the cultural. That, honestly, was the intention of the post.
106
@102: loveschild has to blame the media for these suicides, because if she admitted the real reason (that gays and other nonconformists are oppressed, and not the oppressors) her entire worldview would collapse.
107
Charles, you could not be more wrong here.
Verbal bullying can be far worse than anything physical. I went home crying almost every day of eighth grade and a lot of ninth because of what one particular girl said to me and the way she treated me. I would much rather have been beaten up than go through that. Was I suicidal? No (and never have been), because I knew I'd get through it and because I didn't want to give that girl the satisfaction of knowing she'd gotten to me. But I can see how a person's depression could easily overtake any fear of death or how facing that fear might seem easier than living with bullying for another day. It's stupid to assume that people who are suicidal aren't afraid to die, and to assume that you must fear death to feel bullied is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. If it's not something you've ever experienced, you have no place talking about it.
Verbal bullying can be far worse than anything physical. I went home crying almost every day of eighth grade and a lot of ninth because of what one particular girl said to me and the way she treated me. I would much rather have been beaten up than go through that. Was I suicidal? No (and never have been), because I knew I'd get through it and because I didn't want to give that girl the satisfaction of knowing she'd gotten to me. But I can see how a person's depression could easily overtake any fear of death or how facing that fear might seem easier than living with bullying for another day. It's stupid to assume that people who are suicidal aren't afraid to die, and to assume that you must fear death to feel bullied is the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. If it's not something you've ever experienced, you have no place talking about it.
108
@105: you'd be mentally ill too if you were forced to go to a place where you were tormented every day.
109
Charles, I can't add to anything more to the conversation as everything has already been said, but I'm adding my name to the many people commenting here who are in shock over how completely clueless, idiotic, and dangerous your mindset is. Yes, your fucked up attitudes as to what constitutes a real man or boy (don't cry! have fights cuz they're good for you!) are dangerous.
Jesus fucking Christ.
Jesus fucking Christ.
110
@105 - Bullying fucks people up Charles, is that what you're trying to say? Or is it that bullying can't itself do any harm to kids to make them want to escape from it?
If its the latter which I'm pretty sure it is, I repeat - JESUS FUCKING CHRIST.
I'm boycotting Charles. I just can't deal with his fucked up view of kids.
If its the latter which I'm pretty sure it is, I repeat - JESUS FUCKING CHRIST.
I'm boycotting Charles. I just can't deal with his fucked up view of kids.
111
Lovechild -
1. Read the article here - http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/d…
He had a father figure in his life. His real father could've died and his mother remarried when he was a toddler. So he had a father figure in his life who was rearing him. The kid was West Indian. Black West Indian families raise their kids much better than most African American families do. Hell I should know since I'm 1/2 West Indian Black and 1/2 South Carolinian Black.
2. Lovechild, you've mentioned before that you were from ATL and black. How can you go on and say that his suicide was due to the media's introduction of overtly sexual subjects? You and I both know well that this boy was getting bullied probably because he might have earned straight A's, honor roll, accolation from his teachers, been well behaved, didn't sound like he was from ATL since he's from the Virgin Islands, and the list goes on. The main problem is that in the black community, we need to quit teaching our kids that they need to be what society wants them to be, which is uneducated, lazy, having tons of kids, and in jail. They probably called this boy 'gay' and a 'snitch' because he had respect to his teachers, as well as his elders, and had goals in life that he wanted. Yes, 11 year old do have goals, whether it's to be a doctor, lawyer, scientist, or POTUS one day. In the black community, we need to start praising kids who are great academically and can hold an articulate conversations at young ages, than praising the kids who have athletic prowess and can't locate Liberia or Ethiopia on the map.
So let me summarize the two points I just made. Quit blaming the parents or the media for this boy's suicide. Get over the hate you have for the GLBTC community, which is blinding you from seeing the world, open your mind and heart to the real problem here, and look within at the Black community to see that the source is there.
More...
1. Read the article here - http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/d…
“They called him gay and a snitch,” his stepfather said. “All the time they’d call him this.”
He had a father figure in his life. His real father could've died and his mother remarried when he was a toddler. So he had a father figure in his life who was rearing him. The kid was West Indian. Black West Indian families raise their kids much better than most African American families do. Hell I should know since I'm 1/2 West Indian Black and 1/2 South Carolinian Black.
2. Lovechild, you've mentioned before that you were from ATL and black. How can you go on and say that his suicide was due to the media's introduction of overtly sexual subjects? You and I both know well that this boy was getting bullied probably because he might have earned straight A's, honor roll, accolation from his teachers, been well behaved, didn't sound like he was from ATL since he's from the Virgin Islands, and the list goes on. The main problem is that in the black community, we need to quit teaching our kids that they need to be what society wants them to be, which is uneducated, lazy, having tons of kids, and in jail. They probably called this boy 'gay' and a 'snitch' because he had respect to his teachers, as well as his elders, and had goals in life that he wanted. Yes, 11 year old do have goals, whether it's to be a doctor, lawyer, scientist, or POTUS one day. In the black community, we need to start praising kids who are great academically and can hold an articulate conversations at young ages, than praising the kids who have athletic prowess and can't locate Liberia or Ethiopia on the map.
So let me summarize the two points I just made. Quit blaming the parents or the media for this boy's suicide. Get over the hate you have for the GLBTC community, which is blinding you from seeing the world, open your mind and heart to the real problem here, and look within at the Black community to see that the source is there.
112
"On April 6, just before dinner, Carl Joseph Walker-Hoover, a Massachusetts boy who had endured relentless homophobic taunts at school, wrapped an extension cord around his tiny neck and hanged himself. He was only 11 years old. His mother had to cut him down.
On April 16, just after school, Jaheem Herrera, a Georgia boy who had also endured relentless homophobic taunts at school, wrapped a fabric belt around his tiny neck and hanged himself as well. He too was only 11 years old. His 10-year-old sister found him."
"Children can’t see their budding lives through the long lens of wisdom - the wisdom that benefits from years passed, hurdles overcome, strength summoned, resilience realized, selves discovered and accepted, hearts broken but mended and love experienced in the fullest, truest majesty that the word deserves. For them, the weight of ridicule and ostracism can feel crushing and without the possibility of reprieve. And, in that dark and lonely place, desperate and confused, they can make horrible decisions that can’t be undone."
http://blow.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/24…
On April 16, just after school, Jaheem Herrera, a Georgia boy who had also endured relentless homophobic taunts at school, wrapped a fabric belt around his tiny neck and hanged himself as well. He too was only 11 years old. His 10-year-old sister found him."
"Children can’t see their budding lives through the long lens of wisdom - the wisdom that benefits from years passed, hurdles overcome, strength summoned, resilience realized, selves discovered and accepted, hearts broken but mended and love experienced in the fullest, truest majesty that the word deserves. For them, the weight of ridicule and ostracism can feel crushing and without the possibility of reprieve. And, in that dark and lonely place, desperate and confused, they can make horrible decisions that can’t be undone."
http://blow.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/04/24…
113
Charles, I beg to differ that it's mental illness.
Parents file damages claim against university cheering squad leader over son's suicide - http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/2009…
So clearly, it's mental distress like post tramatic stress disorder created by other people onto their victims that drive them to suicide. Something that's easily preventable.
Parents file damages claim against university cheering squad leader over son's suicide - http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/2009…
In a written response, the former squad leader argued that the student had decided to stay in the club of his own accord and said that the cause of the student's death was "persistent, out-of-line bullying" carried out over a long period of time by a senior squad member two years above the student. He added that the responsibility of the university for failing to step in should be acknowledged.
The former leader's description of the senior squad member's bullying included videoing the student's toilet habits and his suffering when he was made to strip and had cold and hot water splashed on him. Much of the bullying was not mentioned in a university investigation report released in January last year.
The university report said that the student had been violently treated, and added that club activities had caused him to suffer psychological distress. It said there was a possibility that this led to his suicide.
So clearly, it's mental distress like post tramatic stress disorder created by other people onto their victims that drive them to suicide. Something that's easily preventable.
115
I've never commented here before. But this...
Listen:
When I was 12, I was being bullied (tormented, harrassed, assaulted - whatever you would like to call it) at school. A lot of the bullying involved homophobia and me not conforming to gender roles (I'm female, btw). Meanwhile, I knew deep down I was gay, but still believed that if I didn't say it out loud it would pass. The situation was awful. And while there were other stressors in my life, the bullying combined with the coming out to myself was too much.
I made a serious suicide attempt at 13. I had concluded that if this was what life was, there was no reason to stick around. And I had no reason to believe that anything could ever be different. I had not experienced anything else.
This quote from NYTimes gets it exactly right:
"Children can’t see their budding lives through the long lens of wisdom - the wisdom that benefits from years passed, hurdles overcome, strength summoned, resilience realized, selves discovered and accepted, hearts broken but mended and love experienced in the fullest, truest majesty that the word deserves. For them, the weight of ridicule and ostracism can feel crushing and without the possibility of reprieve. And, in that dark and lonely place, desperate and confused, they can make horrible decisions that can’t be undone."
Listen:
When I was 12, I was being bullied (tormented, harrassed, assaulted - whatever you would like to call it) at school. A lot of the bullying involved homophobia and me not conforming to gender roles (I'm female, btw). Meanwhile, I knew deep down I was gay, but still believed that if I didn't say it out loud it would pass. The situation was awful. And while there were other stressors in my life, the bullying combined with the coming out to myself was too much.
I made a serious suicide attempt at 13. I had concluded that if this was what life was, there was no reason to stick around. And I had no reason to believe that anything could ever be different. I had not experienced anything else.
This quote from NYTimes gets it exactly right:
"Children can’t see their budding lives through the long lens of wisdom - the wisdom that benefits from years passed, hurdles overcome, strength summoned, resilience realized, selves discovered and accepted, hearts broken but mended and love experienced in the fullest, truest majesty that the word deserves. For them, the weight of ridicule and ostracism can feel crushing and without the possibility of reprieve. And, in that dark and lonely place, desperate and confused, they can make horrible decisions that can’t be undone."
117
Oh dear - the person with Love in their name is making this about sex, (we all know with this person that means gay sex), slippery slope sex that directs kids to suicide. I guess all suicide could be about sex. Certainly not gay sex. If sex did not exist, people would not exist, therefore suicide would not exist. And in some circumstances learning about sex in school really could lead to suicide. For instance, a gay kid in a parochial school who is predisposed to depression because his married bio parents are jerks is grilled with anti-gay hate. I suppose that could make the kid pretty suicidal.
118
"i want to insist that bullying is not the problem here. mental illness is most likely the root of this tragedy. i would go for the biological over the cultural. That, honestly, was the intention of the post."
huh? you want to place mental illness where there are blatant cultural indicators. fine and asshole-ish of you. if that thinking is beyond you, then you or whomever paid for your education was ripped off.
you are digging yourself deeper. stop.
huh? you want to place mental illness where there are blatant cultural indicators. fine and asshole-ish of you. if that thinking is beyond you, then you or whomever paid for your education was ripped off.
you are digging yourself deeper. stop.
120
the response posts are heart felt and on target
it is interesting, that knowing the high price gay and lesbian kids pay in school bullying, the GLBT community led the need for change starting about 20 years ago
little has changed given the enormity of the obvious problem because the right wing, seeing gay support for anti bullying, decided the topic was too gay and have fought change in all states, including Wasington
Charles, get in touch with gay and gay issues ... you might have to talk beyond your circle as they might not want to tell you the truth, but, gay kids suffer beyond belief in schools
we all know that, it was part of our mutual torture and angst - we became the best little boys in the world to compensate - did everything every demanded by anyone - and wonder how we would make it to adult status to end the suffering
bullying is a queer issue - get it Charles - you need to get on the clue bus
Older Fag who survived many a very painful school year
it is interesting, that knowing the high price gay and lesbian kids pay in school bullying, the GLBT community led the need for change starting about 20 years ago
little has changed given the enormity of the obvious problem because the right wing, seeing gay support for anti bullying, decided the topic was too gay and have fought change in all states, including Wasington
Charles, get in touch with gay and gay issues ... you might have to talk beyond your circle as they might not want to tell you the truth, but, gay kids suffer beyond belief in schools
we all know that, it was part of our mutual torture and angst - we became the best little boys in the world to compensate - did everything every demanded by anyone - and wonder how we would make it to adult status to end the suffering
bullying is a queer issue - get it Charles - you need to get on the clue bus
Older Fag who survived many a very painful school year
123
How is it that, since I've subscribed to SLOG via RSS three weeks ago, I can still pick out a Charles Mudede crap entry without the byline present?
126
Charles,
If you are following this thread, you are well that many do not agree with your post. Add mine to the pile who think you're wrong.
Now, I'm going to hug my kids.
If you are following this thread, you are well that many do not agree with your post. Add mine to the pile who think you're wrong.
Now, I'm going to hug my kids.
128
mudede@105,
depression 101:
external stressors cause the release of stress hormones. constant high levels of stress hormones + genetic predisposition leads to suppressed serotonin production. given a long enough period of serotonin deprivation, your brain actually begins to sustain damage. that's what depression is.
see how that works? genetics AND environment lead to the biological condition.
this is exactly what happened to me. i was a reasonably happy kid. at age 10 i became the omega dog among the girls at my school, and suffered verbal abuse all day every day. the stress not only triggered my first depressive episode, it led to permanent problems with my self-image and sense of self-worth. it was another 11 years before i first attempted suicide, but i trace it all back to the bullying.
depression 101:
external stressors cause the release of stress hormones. constant high levels of stress hormones + genetic predisposition leads to suppressed serotonin production. given a long enough period of serotonin deprivation, your brain actually begins to sustain damage. that's what depression is.
see how that works? genetics AND environment lead to the biological condition.
this is exactly what happened to me. i was a reasonably happy kid. at age 10 i became the omega dog among the girls at my school, and suffered verbal abuse all day every day. the stress not only triggered my first depressive episode, it led to permanent problems with my self-image and sense of self-worth. it was another 11 years before i first attempted suicide, but i trace it all back to the bullying.
129
@105: Charles--
Whenever there is suicide as a result from depression, yes, by definition a mental health issue is at play here. But mental illness isn't "merely" a biological (materialist?) problem, as you seem to imply. Although we are learning that many mental health issues do have a biological or even genetic cause, or that biological or genetic issues can create a predisposition for certain mental health conditions, we are also learning that some mental health issues may not have any biological basis at all.
In any case, depression is often caused by situational/life factors (e.g. death in the family, job stress, bullying, etc.)--and these things are very much SOCIAL (cultural?). Thus, it's safe to assume that a major factor in this and many other similar suicides is a SOCIAL context (bullying) causing depression in someone who then feels isolated, lost, worthless, and without an escape.
The corollary to what you are implying, as well, is that the VICTIM is to BLAME for what happened to him, i.e. something was wrong with HIM and not with the school authorities who, having been duly and repeatedly contacted by the parents, and not with the bullies themselves--who may well suffer from some kind of antisocial/sociopathic disorder(s). If this is what you are implying, it is inaccurate, misguided, nonconstructive, and inappropriate.
If a child were walking with crutches or needed to get stitches from a cut, we wouldn't hesitate to intercede to help the child, and if he got those injuries from a bully we wouldn't hesitate to prevent physical assaults again. The bullies might even be prosecuted for assault. Why then should we not help a child who might be depressed because of teasing, taunting, and bullying in an entirely analogous way? Injury, pain, and suffering are no less when they are psychological instead of physical, as any abuse survivor will tell you.
So, what I hope to convey to you is, 1, that a mental health issue can indeed have social factors as its primary or only cause and, 2, a person who commits suicide in a situation like this is someone deserving your compassion and not your blame, and 3, you should not weigh in on topics like this whose import lies almost wholly outside the domain of pure philosophy without making a considerable effort to learn way more about modern (post-Freudian!) clinical psychiatry. It seems like you apparently know next to nothing about this.
More importantly, where is a glimmer of compassion or empathy? I'm not noticing that.
More...
Whenever there is suicide as a result from depression, yes, by definition a mental health issue is at play here. But mental illness isn't "merely" a biological (materialist?) problem, as you seem to imply. Although we are learning that many mental health issues do have a biological or even genetic cause, or that biological or genetic issues can create a predisposition for certain mental health conditions, we are also learning that some mental health issues may not have any biological basis at all.
In any case, depression is often caused by situational/life factors (e.g. death in the family, job stress, bullying, etc.)--and these things are very much SOCIAL (cultural?). Thus, it's safe to assume that a major factor in this and many other similar suicides is a SOCIAL context (bullying) causing depression in someone who then feels isolated, lost, worthless, and without an escape.
The corollary to what you are implying, as well, is that the VICTIM is to BLAME for what happened to him, i.e. something was wrong with HIM and not with the school authorities who, having been duly and repeatedly contacted by the parents, and not with the bullies themselves--who may well suffer from some kind of antisocial/sociopathic disorder(s). If this is what you are implying, it is inaccurate, misguided, nonconstructive, and inappropriate.
If a child were walking with crutches or needed to get stitches from a cut, we wouldn't hesitate to intercede to help the child, and if he got those injuries from a bully we wouldn't hesitate to prevent physical assaults again. The bullies might even be prosecuted for assault. Why then should we not help a child who might be depressed because of teasing, taunting, and bullying in an entirely analogous way? Injury, pain, and suffering are no less when they are psychological instead of physical, as any abuse survivor will tell you.
So, what I hope to convey to you is, 1, that a mental health issue can indeed have social factors as its primary or only cause and, 2, a person who commits suicide in a situation like this is someone deserving your compassion and not your blame, and 3, you should not weigh in on topics like this whose import lies almost wholly outside the domain of pure philosophy without making a considerable effort to learn way more about modern (post-Freudian!) clinical psychiatry. It seems like you apparently know next to nothing about this.
More importantly, where is a glimmer of compassion or empathy? I'm not noticing that.
130
jen@49: thanks! This inspires me to post to my blog, which I've been avoiding. Come to SLOG night next time, I should be there!
jen@49: thanks! This inspires me to post to my blog, which I've been avoiding. Come to SLOG night next time, I should be there!
131
@105 You really have no clue about children!
I thought I kind of understood the intent of your post but as usual I was way off.
How arrogant are you? How can you possibly even pretend to know anything about this child other than the fact that he was bullied?
I thought I kind of understood the intent of your post but as usual I was way off.
How arrogant are you? How can you possibly even pretend to know anything about this child other than the fact that he was bullied?
133
Charles
I look for your byline when I pick what to read in the Stranger(online).
You are usually thoughtful and often provocative. You also have a gift for writing and language that is rare.
But this time you are 180 degreees of the mark.
Time for a "mia culpe". I have no clue where your head was when you wrote this one...
I look for your byline when I pick what to read in the Stranger(online).
You are usually thoughtful and often provocative. You also have a gift for writing and language that is rare.
But this time you are 180 degreees of the mark.
Time for a "mia culpe". I have no clue where your head was when you wrote this one...
134
I request the Family Research Council, Focus on the Family, The main pastors on the 700 Club, Rick Warren and anyone who is Christian in the United States to spend 5 minutes speaking out publicly against scapegoating gay people. Perhaps it is a cry in the dark. I hope not.
Gay people should not be scapegoated. Nobody should be scapegoated. I repeat. Nobody should be scapegoated.
Gay people should not be scapegoated. Nobody should be scapegoated. I repeat. Nobody should be scapegoated.
136
Every person who's ever committed suicide out of shame (see Bushido Code) disproves your argument, Charles. For them fear of losing face WAS worse than fear of death. It was the same with the boy.
138
I always wondered what these people were like, the adults who are in position to help a bullied kid but never do.
Guess I have an answer now.
Thanks for being an idiot, Charles.
Guess I have an answer now.
Thanks for being an idiot, Charles.
139
Humans are very social animals. Being an outcast is about the worst thing that can happen to us. I can't understand people like Charles and Loveschild who can dismiss these horrors with platitudes. My heart goes out to this child's family.
140
@ Pam,
I used to be social, but now I detest most other people. I can now only tolerate 2-3 people I call friends and only for a short time...and these are people I like and love! For me, socializing, and being with other people (even people who are friends and family) is unpleasant and uncomfortable. I enjoy being alone and away from people far more than being with them...even the ones I love. This is because of the bullying.
"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence."
I used to be social, but now I detest most other people. I can now only tolerate 2-3 people I call friends and only for a short time...and these are people I like and love! For me, socializing, and being with other people (even people who are friends and family) is unpleasant and uncomfortable. I enjoy being alone and away from people far more than being with them...even the ones I love. This is because of the bullying.
"Associate with men of good quality if you esteem your own reputation; for it is better to be alone than in bad company. Be courteous to all, but intimate with few, and let those few be well tried before you give them your confidence."
141
Mr. Mudede @ 105: "i want to insist that bullying is not the problem here. mental illness is most likely the root of this tragedy. i would go for the biological over the cultural. That, honestly, was the intention of the post."
Why that insistence, though? I don't understand. It seems self-evident to me that social pressure can change people, and can make them do things they otherwise wouldn't. The difference between peer pressuring somebody to smoke and bullying them to the point of suicide is a matter of degree. But it sounds like you don't think so, and I'm curious why not.
Why that insistence, though? I don't understand. It seems self-evident to me that social pressure can change people, and can make them do things they otherwise wouldn't. The difference between peer pressuring somebody to smoke and bullying them to the point of suicide is a matter of degree. But it sounds like you don't think so, and I'm curious why not.
142
@105 - I haven't read every comment after that, so I apologize if someone else already said this:
BULLYING IS A SYMPTOM OF MENTAL ILLNESS. Committing suicide in reaction to prolonged & extreme bullying might/might not be, but bullying definitely is.
I remain amazed that anyone can lack so much comprehension of what it's like to be a person.
BULLYING IS A SYMPTOM OF MENTAL ILLNESS. Committing suicide in reaction to prolonged & extreme bullying might/might not be, but bullying definitely is.
I remain amazed that anyone can lack so much comprehension of what it's like to be a person.
143
@140/100: I am so sorry for your experience. I've been there; in fact, I'm still there. As I said in my earlier post @101 I still have scars even in middle age. Maybe there are other survivors out there who have successfully overcome their past but unfortunately they are probably very few in number.
@134: You're absolutely right, nobody should be scapegoated, but good luck getting fundamentalist "Christians" to agree to that. If you live in Washington you may remember that opposition to a state anti-bullying law came from these same people. It seems they were afraid their kids would get in Big Trouble for telling their gay (or presumed gay) classmates that they were perverts who would burn forever in hell. They used it as evidence that, boo hoo, Christians are being persecuted by an alleged liberal mafia. This, of course, is the biggest urban legend since the exploding poodle in the microwave. How incredibly appalling.
@134: You're absolutely right, nobody should be scapegoated, but good luck getting fundamentalist "Christians" to agree to that. If you live in Washington you may remember that opposition to a state anti-bullying law came from these same people. It seems they were afraid their kids would get in Big Trouble for telling their gay (or presumed gay) classmates that they were perverts who would burn forever in hell. They used it as evidence that, boo hoo, Christians are being persecuted by an alleged liberal mafia. This, of course, is the biggest urban legend since the exploding poodle in the microwave. How incredibly appalling.
144
Sorry, Charles, but let me join the chorus. You're just wrong. Yes, suicide is often related to mental illness, but the real culprit is hopelessness. Remember being an adolescent, when fitting in with your peers was all-important? Imagine being loudly rejected by those peers, not once but every day. And no one helps. Despair led this kid to end his own suffering, as it does many otherwise sane people (like numerous women in Afghanistan) who suffer intolerable situations without hope for relief.
145
This was a terrible, embarrassing post. It's sophomoric, college-paper-editorial-page-level reasoning from false premises, and it's going to put me off Slog for a while.
146
Now that this post is on top of the "most-commented" stack, I wonder if that was the intent of making it all along.
147
I left an angry comment yesterday, but since this thread is still going I'm going to pile on one more time.
I can shrug it off when people try to justify their homophobia with religion. I can tolerate fag jokes and being stereotyped. I can control my anger when I read stories of gay-bashing. But nothing makes me see red more than when somebody attempts to downplay homophobia-induced youth suicide. It really makes my blood boil. Fuck you, Charles.
I can shrug it off when people try to justify their homophobia with religion. I can tolerate fag jokes and being stereotyped. I can control my anger when I read stories of gay-bashing. But nothing makes me see red more than when somebody attempts to downplay homophobia-induced youth suicide. It really makes my blood boil. Fuck you, Charles.
150
@142
That's the problem with a society whose dearest founding concepts include "free will" and "rational actors": people are often reluctant to accept any explanation for behavior other than that a person is "good" or "bad." Middle America is still pretty dubious of mental illness (depression notwithstanding) in any but the most extreme cases. Even the most liberal of us were usually brought up with the idea of free will, and any attempt at explanation for behavior tends to bear a faint whiff of excuse-making.
Indeed, I suspect that a pugnaciously liberal desire to be seen to buck that trend, rather than any considered insight, might be behind Charles' motivation to post his idiotic commentary on this article.
That's the problem with a society whose dearest founding concepts include "free will" and "rational actors": people are often reluctant to accept any explanation for behavior other than that a person is "good" or "bad." Middle America is still pretty dubious of mental illness (depression notwithstanding) in any but the most extreme cases. Even the most liberal of us were usually brought up with the idea of free will, and any attempt at explanation for behavior tends to bear a faint whiff of excuse-making.
Indeed, I suspect that a pugnaciously liberal desire to be seen to buck that trend, rather than any considered insight, might be behind Charles' motivation to post his idiotic commentary on this article.
151
@123
I know, I can pick out his posts within the first three words, usually. It's kiiiiind of amazing.
I know, I can pick out his posts within the first three words, usually. It's kiiiiind of amazing.
153
Charles uses reality as a springboard into the parallel universe of his philosophical speculations. In this case, he sprang at least two universes away from ours. He's like Meg in A Wrinkle in Time, tessering to a foggy gray planet in the belt of the constellation Orion, menaced by dark forces mustering in the otherworld. Come back to the world of reason, Charles! Renounce the penumbrous entangling tentacles of Theory! Step into the light!
154
tim, last night i had really productive conversation about this subject, the boy and the bullying, with our resident scientist, jonathan golob. he pretty much convinced me that bullying can lead to stress, and stress actually damages the brain. and so, he argued, there is a link between between the social (bullying) and biological (the brain). it's not a matter of feelings being hurt (soft) but physical damage to the processes of decision making (hard). in short, the boy suffered from poor or damaged cognitive processing.
that is more or less what golob said. in the end i prefered his model than the one is used in the post, which was pure hegel. the "philsosophy of mind" passage that inspired my model and post:
"In that experience it has been quite unmanned, has trembled in every fibre of its being, and everything solid and stable has been shaken to its foundations. But this pure universal movement, the absolute melting-away of everything stable, is the simple essential nature of self-consciousness, absolute negativity, pure being-for-self, which consequently is implicit in this consciousness."
death as the absolute master. that was my thinking.
that is more or less what golob said. in the end i prefered his model than the one is used in the post, which was pure hegel. the "philsosophy of mind" passage that inspired my model and post:
"In that experience it has been quite unmanned, has trembled in every fibre of its being, and everything solid and stable has been shaken to its foundations. But this pure universal movement, the absolute melting-away of everything stable, is the simple essential nature of self-consciousness, absolute negativity, pure being-for-self, which consequently is implicit in this consciousness."
death as the absolute master. that was my thinking.
155
@105
If your intent was to open up a broader discussion about what other factors might have contributed to this boy's suicide it was ham-handed in the extreme.
I read an abstract of a study recently (I can't find the citation on Science Daily) that hypothesized about the evolutionary role of bullying based on observing the behavior of school children. They found that boys and girls bullied differently and the theory they proposed was that bullying is part of the competition for mates and differed because of the different goals between boys and girls.
As interesting as that theory is, it isn't a whole answer and it provides the same measure of comfort and absolution that your own reductive attempt at causation does. That is, none to speak of.
Human outcomes are multi-causal and individual factors are pleiotropic.
- You posit that anyone who commits suicide is mentally ill.
- You seem impervious to the fact of normal function prior to the onset of bullying.
- You appear incurious whether bullying is a critical factor in increased suicide ideation.
The current science shows clear connections between bullying and suicide but more research is needed to definitively understand causality. What convinces you that bullying is a non-factor when the best science of the day disagrees with you?
If your intent was to open up a broader discussion about what other factors might have contributed to this boy's suicide it was ham-handed in the extreme.
I read an abstract of a study recently (I can't find the citation on Science Daily) that hypothesized about the evolutionary role of bullying based on observing the behavior of school children. They found that boys and girls bullied differently and the theory they proposed was that bullying is part of the competition for mates and differed because of the different goals between boys and girls.
As interesting as that theory is, it isn't a whole answer and it provides the same measure of comfort and absolution that your own reductive attempt at causation does. That is, none to speak of.
Human outcomes are multi-causal and individual factors are pleiotropic.
- You posit that anyone who commits suicide is mentally ill.
- You seem impervious to the fact of normal function prior to the onset of bullying.
- You appear incurious whether bullying is a critical factor in increased suicide ideation.
The current science shows clear connections between bullying and suicide but more research is needed to definitively understand causality. What convinces you that bullying is a non-factor when the best science of the day disagrees with you?
156
@154
Just to be clear, Charles...
You don't think that being bullied and ultimately committing suicide requires an underlying mental health problem.
You accept that a normal healthy person can be bullied chronically and made sick, in some cases to the point of suicide.
Reading the research abstracts today I noted one where they were measuring stress hormones in children and noting the differences between those who were bullied and not - lining up with the model JG mentioned.
I also found that two indicators in the Beck Depression Inventory, the hopelessness scale and pessimism, are the best indicators of eventual suicides. This makes sense to me intuitively.
You have to have no hope and be convinced that your situation will never change to leap through the dark arch.
Just to be clear, Charles...
You don't think that being bullied and ultimately committing suicide requires an underlying mental health problem.
You accept that a normal healthy person can be bullied chronically and made sick, in some cases to the point of suicide.
Reading the research abstracts today I noted one where they were measuring stress hormones in children and noting the differences between those who were bullied and not - lining up with the model JG mentioned.
I also found that two indicators in the Beck Depression Inventory, the hopelessness scale and pessimism, are the best indicators of eventual suicides. This makes sense to me intuitively.
You have to have no hope and be convinced that your situation will never change to leap through the dark arch.
157
Lovechild - you do realize that not much more than 100 years ago children as young as 13 were marrying and sexually active, right? Sexualizing children isn't the problem - sexualizing them unhealthily is the problem.
159
1) I'd like to hear Golob's version of the conversation as well as yours.
2) So do you now admit that the boy's mother was right? And if so would it kill you to say so instead of just spouting another philosophy-quote-of-the-day?
3) Not knowing what you claim Golob told you is no excuse for your offensive post.
2) So do you now admit that the boy's mother was right? And if so would it kill you to say so instead of just spouting another philosophy-quote-of-the-day?
3) Not knowing what you claim Golob told you is no excuse for your offensive post.
161
my post was not offensive. it only said: bullying was not the root of the problem but something else was. what the fucking hell is offensive about that? nothing. because i'm not so sensitive about bullying being a major social problem does not mean i'm offensive.
162
Matthew: Charles accurately related our conversation.
I pointed out that any sort of long-term stress (bullying, illness like cancer, work, poverty....) results in a particular sort of damage to the brain. This is why anti-depressants take a month to work. They simply provide an environment in which these damaged brain cells can repair themselves.
I pointed out that any sort of long-term stress (bullying, illness like cancer, work, poverty....) results in a particular sort of damage to the brain. This is why anti-depressants take a month to work. They simply provide an environment in which these damaged brain cells can repair themselves.
163
150+ comments agree that the post was offensive. It's rather compelling when you can get Slog commenters to agree with near unanimity that a post is offensive.
165
Mr. Mudede,
You're welcome to your opinion, that bullying was not the root of the problem. If I understand you, you think that the child was depressed and that was the root problem? I can agree that depression can drive a person to suicide, but depression doesn't exisit in a vaccume. Depression develops over a period of time as Mr. Golob shared from a/ many source(s). This child can't tell us why, why he decided that ending his life was the best option.
I struggle with your post, because it comes across too willing to eliminate bullying as the root (or one of many roots) of this childs depression. There are many commentators who have the example of their own lives, mine included, who understand that bullying can be extremely damaging and be a root cause of depression. I spent 4 1/2 years counseling domestic violence victims, they all struggled from depression. Some were even suicidal. Talking through those long conversations you get to see the pattern. I came to understand that they hated themselves, they hated their lives, they hated the abuse (physical, emotional, verbal) and the bullying and intimidation that left them feeling powerless and worthless, and sometimes they hated their abuser, too. They felt hopeless and their desire to become free of the pain, made suicide very appealing.
Perhaps, your post appears to presumptive. Perhaps, your post comes accross to eager to eliminate bullying as a root (or part of the root) cause of this child's decision to end his life. Perhaps, that is why so many (150+ acccording to comment 163) found it offensive. I didn't find it offensive, I found it narrow, sterile and sad.
You're welcome to your opinion, that bullying was not the root of the problem. If I understand you, you think that the child was depressed and that was the root problem? I can agree that depression can drive a person to suicide, but depression doesn't exisit in a vaccume. Depression develops over a period of time as Mr. Golob shared from a/ many source(s). This child can't tell us why, why he decided that ending his life was the best option.
I struggle with your post, because it comes across too willing to eliminate bullying as the root (or one of many roots) of this childs depression. There are many commentators who have the example of their own lives, mine included, who understand that bullying can be extremely damaging and be a root cause of depression. I spent 4 1/2 years counseling domestic violence victims, they all struggled from depression. Some were even suicidal. Talking through those long conversations you get to see the pattern. I came to understand that they hated themselves, they hated their lives, they hated the abuse (physical, emotional, verbal) and the bullying and intimidation that left them feeling powerless and worthless, and sometimes they hated their abuser, too. They felt hopeless and their desire to become free of the pain, made suicide very appealing.
Perhaps, your post appears to presumptive. Perhaps, your post comes accross to eager to eliminate bullying as a root (or part of the root) cause of this child's decision to end his life. Perhaps, that is why so many (150+ acccording to comment 163) found it offensive. I didn't find it offensive, I found it narrow, sterile and sad.
166
So now not only was I bullied and depressed as a child, but I was permanently brain damaged or as Charles Mudede would put it, I am mentally ill. Gee thanks, that makes me feel good. (half joking)
Antidepressants promoting neurogenesis is news to me. Thanks for the info from Jonathan Golob @162. Though if it's true that it helps the brain 'repair' itself, then I would think you would be able to successfully get off the meds eventually, but I don't think that is the case. So whatever causes depression in the first place will cause that much atrophy of the brain after getting off Antidepressants? Neurology is messy business, why can't everything be like mathmatics?
Antidepressants promoting neurogenesis is news to me. Thanks for the info from Jonathan Golob @162. Though if it's true that it helps the brain 'repair' itself, then I would think you would be able to successfully get off the meds eventually, but I don't think that is the case. So whatever causes depression in the first place will cause that much atrophy of the brain after getting off Antidepressants? Neurology is messy business, why can't everything be like mathmatics?
167
@ 161 You don't actually get to decide whether your post is offensive. The 160+ offended people do that.
168
Here's "what the fucking hell is offensive about" your post: you belittled a mother's grief for her dead son and the experience of victims of bullying everywhere by announcing that bullying is not enough of a big deal to drive anyone (since your 'logic' applies equally to any case) to suicide, despite vast amounts of documentary evidence that it can and has. And clinging to Golob's factoid doesn't get you off the hook; suppose that the research supporting his statement had come up with the opposite result. What would that make all the people who've committed suicide after being subjected to bullying?
Your new position is both offensive and bizarre. You now accept that there is a mechanism whereby bullying can drive its victims to suicide (comment 154), but you're still "not so sensitive about bullying being a major social problem" (comment 161). Care to justify that stance?
Golob, I'm not best pleased with you either. Stressed <--> not stressed; brain damaged <--> not damaged aren't binary situations they're continuums. The sequence bullying -> stress -> brain damage -> impaired cognition -> inability to accurately judge the relative desirability of death versus continued bullying -> suicide is an unfair reduction of a social and moral, as well as biological, issue to just biology. And you should've known Mudede would wrench it out of context, you must know what he's like.
So, to repeat my question, do you now admit that the boy's mother was right Mudede?
Your new position is both offensive and bizarre. You now accept that there is a mechanism whereby bullying can drive its victims to suicide (comment 154), but you're still "not so sensitive about bullying being a major social problem" (comment 161). Care to justify that stance?
Golob, I'm not best pleased with you either. Stressed <--> not stressed; brain damaged <--> not damaged aren't binary situations they're continuums. The sequence bullying -> stress -> brain damage -> impaired cognition -> inability to accurately judge the relative desirability of death versus continued bullying -> suicide is an unfair reduction of a social and moral, as well as biological, issue to just biology. And you should've known Mudede would wrench it out of context, you must know what he's like.
So, to repeat my question, do you now admit that the boy's mother was right Mudede?
169
@ 161 your post was *incredibly* offensive and it disturbs me that you don't seem able to admit that it was let alone understand WHY. I'm left once more asking why the Stranger continues to employ you.
170
Charles, whether your opinion is offensive or just short-sighted and stupid, I'm with commenter 163. The fact that this many people agreed on something in a Slog post should be an indication that you were wrong. How often do this many people on here agree on anything? If you'd written about how puppies are cute, you'd have less agreement among the other posters than you do in this thread.
171
datajunkie,
SSRIs don't promote healing directly, but help serotonin to reach a healthy level in the brain, thus stopping or slowing any further damage. i'm not sure i agree with JG that the nerves repair themselves; from what i've understood, the damage is permanent and its severity is directly related to the amount of time the person has been depressed over a lifetime. i highly recommend the book _against_depression_ by peter kramer.
SSRIs don't promote healing directly, but help serotonin to reach a healthy level in the brain, thus stopping or slowing any further damage. i'm not sure i agree with JG that the nerves repair themselves; from what i've understood, the damage is permanent and its severity is directly related to the amount of time the person has been depressed over a lifetime. i highly recommend the book _against_depression_ by peter kramer.
174
You know what record was set here? Mudede posted five comments to his own thread. I'm sure that's never happened before.
175
what else would you people expect from a negro from Zimbabwe, a place where even the government geologists and interior ministers (supposedly the best and smartest people in the country) believe in magic diesel fuel from rocks?? Charles is one of these kinds of people:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/wo…
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/wo…
177
Listen to the tone of many of these comments.
You can hear the echos of what an eleven year old boy heard when he decided he could no longer live with the sound of his own thoughts.
You can hear the echos of what an eleven year old boy heard when he decided he could no longer live with the sound of his own thoughts.
178
@173
Ah, we agree on TWO things.
All humans are full of shit, and it's fucking cool that the universe tastes like raspberries.
Lovely.
Ah, we agree on TWO things.
All humans are full of shit, and it's fucking cool that the universe tastes like raspberries.
Lovely.
179
Holy shit, Mudede. I was almost going to say you had a coherent post here. But then ... BAM! ... you punch me in the face with a real stinker.
How does committing suicide mean you don't have a fear of death? What an asinine conclusion. Yes, there probably was more going on than bullying. But that's about the only thing you CAN conclude from the situation as we know it.
Seriously, man. Does the Stranger keep you around for your sharp journalistic wit? Or wholly for comedic purposes?
How does committing suicide mean you don't have a fear of death? What an asinine conclusion. Yes, there probably was more going on than bullying. But that's about the only thing you CAN conclude from the situation as we know it.
Seriously, man. Does the Stranger keep you around for your sharp journalistic wit? Or wholly for comedic purposes?
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