Thursday, April 23, 2009
Homo Progress
Posted by Dan Savage on Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 6:02 AM
Once upon a time in America you could murder a gay, lesbian, or transgendered person and odds were good that you'd get away with it. Those odds, like the times, have changed.
A man convicted Wednesday of using a fire extinguisher to crush the skull of a transgender Greeley woman was sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole just over an hour after a jury returned guilty verdicts on all four counts charged, including first-degree murder and hate-crime charges. Weld District Judge Marcelo Kopcow imposed the mandatory life sentence on Allen Andrade, 32, for murdering Angie Zapata, 18, last summer in Greeley.
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2
I think Matthew Shepard's murder may have been a turning point. People who are compassionate and have a real sense of right and wrong were really outraged. That lead the way for more hate crimes legislation to nail scum like this.
6
"Once upon a time in America you could murder a gay, lesbian, or transgendered person and odds were good that you'd get away with it."
Oh please. That is such a naive stance to take on our judicial system.
Creating an assumption that prosecution of murder did not exist before Hate Crime laws is to be self-serving.
Oh please. That is such a naive stance to take on our judicial system.
Creating an assumption that prosecution of murder did not exist before Hate Crime laws is to be self-serving.
8
re:hate crime
Is there an occasion when one could use a fire extinguisher to crush the skull of someone, anyone, and it not be an act of hate?
Do people crush the skulls of heterosexuals out of love, and is it less of a crime than crushing the skull of someone in a favored class?
Is there an occasion when one could use a fire extinguisher to crush the skull of someone, anyone, and it not be an act of hate?
Do people crush the skulls of heterosexuals out of love, and is it less of a crime than crushing the skull of someone in a favored class?
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@6,7 I think Dan was making reference to the 'gay panic' defense, which used to work and doesn't so much any more.
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@8 if your hypothetical crime was committed as an offense against heterosexuals in general, then it is a hate crime against a protected group as well as a crime against an individual and should be prosecuted as such. There's not too much straight-bashing out there though, which is why you never see something like that.
12
In Jena you can grab five of your homies and beat a high school kid's face to a bloddy pulp and get away with it and become a martyr and a celebrity on CNN.
http://archimedes.galilei.com/stlcofcc/b…
http://archimedes.galilei.com/stlcofcc/b…
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If I got my skull bashed in I would not be nearly as upset about it if I didn't think I had been targeted because I was hetero.
Hell, I'd probably just laugh it off...
If I got my skull bashed in I would not be nearly as upset about it if I didn't think I had been targeted because I was hetero.
Hell, I'd probably just laugh it off...
15
Harvey Milk? Dan White? Twinkie defense? I'm sure there was a movie about this recently. And if they're not teaching that in history, they should be. Various forms of lynching against queers, and the gay panic defense, are an important chapter in the history of the 20th Century.
It's funny, I've been re-reading Reports from the Holocaust this week, and remembering those times myself, and just being amazed at how much things have changed and how fast. And I have to admit, I was one of those people who thought we should be taking it slower. Thank god nobody listened to me.
You kids who think Dan's being hyperbolic about this need to educate yourselves, if only so you can appreciate the incredible change that's taken place just in the last 30 years.
When in America could you murder a gay, lesbian, or transgendered person and get away with it?
Harvey Milk? Dan White? Twinkie defense? I'm sure there was a movie about this recently. And if they're not teaching that in history, they should be. Various forms of lynching against queers, and the gay panic defense, are an important chapter in the history of the 20th Century.
It's funny, I've been re-reading Reports from the Holocaust this week, and remembering those times myself, and just being amazed at how much things have changed and how fast. And I have to admit, I was one of those people who thought we should be taking it slower. Thank god nobody listened to me.
You kids who think Dan's being hyperbolic about this need to educate yourselves, if only so you can appreciate the incredible change that's taken place just in the last 30 years.
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4
How about a watch of female coaches of girls' teams who become involved with players on the teams they coach?
How about a watch of female coaches of girls' teams who become involved with players on the teams they coach?
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@14 in the US, we don't prosecute crimes based on the way the victim 'feels' about it, dumbass. It's based on the severity of the crime, which is greater if it's perpetrated against an entire class of people.
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15
The twinkie defence is not a story about gay bashing.
It is a story about an impotent criminal justice system that does not hold murders and rapists accountable.
It is a story about Liberal judges and lawyers and the ABA gutting the justice system.
For every Milk there are 10,000 non-gay non-'minority' people killed whose killer gets off scot-free.
The twinkie defence is not a story about gay bashing.
It is a story about an impotent criminal justice system that does not hold murders and rapists accountable.
It is a story about Liberal judges and lawyers and the ABA gutting the justice system.
For every Milk there are 10,000 non-gay non-'minority' people killed whose killer gets off scot-free.
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17
So how many people got their heads bashed in by this fire extinguisher?
It would take a pretty big one to bash an entire class of people.
So how many people got their heads bashed in by this fire extinguisher?
It would take a pretty big one to bash an entire class of people.
22
It would be fun if the stranger kept tabs on how many threads evolve into discussions about:
(1) porn,
(2) the racial characteristics of black people,
(3) registration and/or troll etiquette (guilty!),
(4) burning hatred of ECB and/or Charles,
(5) whether Seattle really is "all that."
I'm confident that a post about, say, how awesome Leonard Cohen is would quickly mutate to include all five of these topics.
(1) porn,
(2) the racial characteristics of black people,
(3) registration and/or troll etiquette (guilty!),
(4) burning hatred of ECB and/or Charles,
(5) whether Seattle really is "all that."
I'm confident that a post about, say, how awesome Leonard Cohen is would quickly mutate to include all five of these topics.
24
If Angie Zapata had been born female, rather than being born a male, but transgendered to female, she would be alive today. Allen Andrade killed her for being a transsexual. She was targeted for that reason, and that reason alone.
Mr. Andrade’s public defenders never denied that he was the killer but said there had been nothing premeditated in what he did. They contended that he had been fooled by Ms. Zapata, formerly named Justin Zapata, and simply snapped when he found that she had been born male.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/us/23t…
25
In Seattle, if you are a black youf, you can get with a pack of your black youf buddies and kill a harmless old white man and get only about a year in juvey.
Celebrate divershitty! No Snitchin' Yo!!!
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/405403_tu…
Wednesday, April 22, 2009
Last updated 5:57 p.m. PT
'Tuba Man's' teen killers sentenced in juvenile court
By LEVI PULKKINEN
SEATTLEPI.COM STAFF
Three teens who admitted to killing Edward McMichael -- Seattle's "Tuba Man" -- will spend no more than a year in detention for the slaying and a related robbery.
McMichael died Nov. 3, days after being attacked without cause at a Lower Queen Anne bus stop. Police arrested the three youths weeks later, but after investigators and prosecutors were unable to find any witnesses willing to testify at trial, the teens garnered a plea deal.
Celebrate divershitty! No Snitchin' Yo!!!
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/405403_tu…
Wednesday, April 22, 2009
Last updated 5:57 p.m. PT
'Tuba Man's' teen killers sentenced in juvenile court
By LEVI PULKKINEN
SEATTLEPI.COM STAFF
Three teens who admitted to killing Edward McMichael -- Seattle's "Tuba Man" -- will spend no more than a year in detention for the slaying and a related robbery.
McMichael died Nov. 3, days after being attacked without cause at a Lower Queen Anne bus stop. Police arrested the three youths weeks later, but after investigators and prosecutors were unable to find any witnesses willing to testify at trial, the teens garnered a plea deal.
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Very idiotic conclusion, Rob.
Someone born female has a much greater chance to be the victim of a violent crime.
Because they are female.
Maybe if 'Angie' had not lied about his sex he would still be alive.
Very idiotic conclusion, Rob.
Someone born female has a much greater chance to be the victim of a violent crime.
Because they are female.
Maybe if 'Angie' had not lied about his sex he would still be alive.
27
So if god makes gays gay and xtians are hateful bigots not to accept that divine truth then why wasn't Zapata satisfied being a male like god made him?
28
@14 Who were the intended victims of September 11? The whole point of terrorism is to victimize a vast number of people while directly harming a subset. The terrorist is guilty of not just the killing of certain people, but of another harm done to everybody—and this other harm is a suitable target of prosecution.
If your hate crime law targets those who target a group simply because that person was a member of that group then I would say that your law is over broad. But if you are going after people who are trying to send a message to that group you're doing good.
If your hate crime law targets those who target a group simply because that person was a member of that group then I would say that your law is over broad. But if you are going after people who are trying to send a message to that group you're doing good.
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26 shit, I'm glad I didn't grow up in your family. I bet your parents helped you cover up your murder of your little brother because he tricked you into eating dog food. And since he lied, he pretty much deserved it, right?
30
Good for this jury and the Weld County DA. Greeley is one of Colorado's three centers of real hard right conservatism, along with Colorado Springs and Grand Junction. When people like that recognize hate crimes, we have indeed turned the corner.
31
26, We are talking about this case, where the defendant admits he killed her because she was a transsexual.
Also, how do you know she lied? How do you know if they even discussed such things? Even if she did, are you really arguing that that justified her murder?
Also, how do you know she lied? How do you know if they even discussed such things? Even if she did, are you really arguing that that justified her murder?
32
When packs of blacks kill white old people in Seattle, white Seattle hipster liberals yawn and totally ignore it.
33
I have to say that ceushing someone's skull is murder, no matter the sexual orientation, race etc.. the victim has.
and,someone 18 years old is a transexual? ... no one sees a problem with that?
and,someone 18 years old is a transexual? ... no one sees a problem with that?
36
@33, Watch the excellent movie XXY (Argentina's contribution to the Oscars, in Spanish), and claim you have a problem with the 14 year old lead. Just like you, transgender people have their gender at birth, and the earlier they are allowed to express and identify with it publicly, the better.
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28
This person didn't set out to kill or terrorize anyone. He reacted poorly when presented with a gross misrepresentation. He didn't kill Zapata because he was transgendered, he didn't seek out a transgendered person to kill.
I suspect Dan would counsel 'women' who have penises to let their potential partners know that ahead of time.
This person didn't set out to kill or terrorize anyone. He reacted poorly when presented with a gross misrepresentation. He didn't kill Zapata because he was transgendered, he didn't seek out a transgendered person to kill.
I suspect Dan would counsel 'women' who have penises to let their potential partners know that ahead of time.
39
@ 38, a conservative jury found otherwise.
Prosecutors argued Andrade was a dangerous homophobe who laughed off Zapata's killing to his girlfriends in jailhouse phone conversations that were replayed in open court.
42
This thread was really depressing to read. I wish all of you trolls would just fuck off and spread your idiocy somewhere else.
44
Savage is the troll-king and his bullshit inflammatory comments like "Once upon a time in America you could murder a gay, lesbian, or transgendered person and odds were good that you'd get away with it" are simply troll bait. You front page pigs don't be surprised when the comments smell like a pig sty.
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@42 I know. what with the popular tide turning towards gay marriage and all, you'd think Focus on the Family's employees would have better things to do than troll a liberal Seattle blog.
46
Yeah, it's just one racist fuck at the library who's too chickenshit to express his racism out loud. Give him a few more weeks on the dole and maybe he'll move back to Lacey with his mom.
47
Once upon a time in America (and the rest of the world too) there was no such thing as a "transgendered" person, other than the super rare freak hermaphrodite birth, if you count such a thing as "transgendered".
"Transgendered" anything did not even exist until the 20th century with the "advances" of elective "sex-change" surgery and hormone injections.
"Transgendered" anything did not even exist until the 20th century with the "advances" of elective "sex-change" surgery and hormone injections.
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@47 actually, that's not true. Civilizations have espoused the concept of third gender or transgender for a long time. Women have lived as men, men women, and both as neither for much longer than effective surgical procedures to alter physiology have been around.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gende…
And even if it were true, newness isn't a valid argument against extending the protection of law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gende…
And even if it were true, newness isn't a valid argument against extending the protection of law.
49
So a man murders a tranny and goes to jail... for murder. Makes sense to me. This is why I never understood the need for hate crime laws. Murder is the biggest hate crime you can commit and, last I checked, the penalties are... well, they're probably pretty stiff.
51
@50 all the citations are there. or did amazon make them all up too?
http://a9.com/1859733352?a=ob
http://a9.com/1859733352?a=ob
http://a9.com/1577660749?a=ob
http://a9.com/0292712677?a=ob
http://a9.com/1859733352?a=ob
http://a9.com/1859733352?a=ob
http://a9.com/1577660749?a=ob
http://a9.com/0292712677?a=ob
54
*cringe*
I got bitchy the other day with some people on Broadway who were making fun of this trans girl, and mentioned it later to a (straight, white, male) friend, who said that I should get a sense of humor. Because he was the asthmatic kid in gym class, and he had to learn to buck up and get over it, so everybody else should too.
Yeah. When was the last time you heard of the asthmatic kid getting their skull crushed for it?
Anyway.
I got bitchy the other day with some people on Broadway who were making fun of this trans girl, and mentioned it later to a (straight, white, male) friend, who said that I should get a sense of humor. Because he was the asthmatic kid in gym class, and he had to learn to buck up and get over it, so everybody else should too.
Yeah. When was the last time you heard of the asthmatic kid getting their skull crushed for it?
Anyway.
62
You're right. I say we should let the cops round people up, put them against the wall, and shoot them. I propose they start with YOU.
Because they never get caught, not because the criminal justice system has been weakened by your strawmen. Time to change your diaper.
The twinkie defence is not a story about gay bashing.
It is a story about an impotent criminal justice system that does not hold murders and rapists accountable.
It is a story about Liberal judges and lawyers and the ABA gutting the justice system.
You're right. I say we should let the cops round people up, put them against the wall, and shoot them. I propose they start with YOU.
For every Milk there are 10,000 non-gay non-'minority' people killed whose killer gets off scot-free.
Because they never get caught, not because the criminal justice system has been weakened by your strawmen. Time to change your diaper.
63
What exactly is it about transgenderism that causes anonymous douchebags on the internet to come out and cheer for murder?
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@ 63 yeah i agree.
I wonder why trolls would even care to read the story and take the time to comment. . . why would a story about a transwomen even be on their radar? I am interested in these topics because I am trans. . . but what's the motivation with the "douchebags.?
internalized homophobia / transphobia perhaps?
I wonder why trolls would even care to read the story and take the time to comment. . . why would a story about a transwomen even be on their radar? I am interested in these topics because I am trans. . . but what's the motivation with the "douchebags.?
internalized homophobia / transphobia perhaps?
66
"Got Privilege? "
Oh fucking please.
The fact is, hate crime laws punish two things: the crime and the message behind it. It turns what should be a clear-cut crime into a symbolic statement. And symbolic statements aren't against the law, but hate crime laws make them so.
Why is jacking someone's wallet not a hate crime against everyone who has a wallet? Or, less facetiously, why isn't rape, all rape, a hate crime against women? What's more hateful than rape? I believe in prosecuting people for what they do, not what they think or say.
Oh fucking please.
The fact is, hate crime laws punish two things: the crime and the message behind it. It turns what should be a clear-cut crime into a symbolic statement. And symbolic statements aren't against the law, but hate crime laws make them so.
Why is jacking someone's wallet not a hate crime against everyone who has a wallet? Or, less facetiously, why isn't rape, all rape, a hate crime against women? What's more hateful than rape? I believe in prosecuting people for what they do, not what they think or say.
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@66
complaining about my privilage comment then using your "jacking someone's wallet" as an example. . . wow, how ironic. The wind must be at your back.
Um . . . bashing someone's head in solely because they were trans is a symbolic statement?
A hate crime is not like non-biased crime.
I am curious to know why so many feel that the benefit of one group somehow is to the direct detriment of another?
How does protecting vulnerable minorities with hate crimes take away anyone else's right to justice for non-biased crime?
complaining about my privilage comment then using your "jacking someone's wallet" as an example. . . wow, how ironic. The wind must be at your back.
Um . . . bashing someone's head in solely because they were trans is a symbolic statement?
A hate crime is not like non-biased crime.
I am curious to know why so many feel that the benefit of one group somehow is to the direct detriment of another?
How does protecting vulnerable minorities with hate crimes take away anyone else's right to justice for non-biased crime?
68
@64--- Vandalism isn't based on logic so there's really nothing to understand. Boring answer, but it's true....
69
Why don't these anti-hate crime "thought police" fucks complain about 1st degree vs. 2nd degree murder? Or vehicular manslaughter vs. vehicular homicide vs. a traffic ticket for killing someone during an accident? Or malicious harassment vs. calling someone on the phone to say hi?
Because they're bigoted male white supremacist fuckheads.
Because they're bigoted male white supremacist fuckheads.
70
@44
Oh, is THAT what's going on here? I've been reading these threads for an hour now, wondering why everyone's being so cruel. It hadn't even occurred to me that Dan kind of sets the tone in the style of his posts.
...But he kind of does, I guess. Still, it seems kind of disrespectful to comment on someone's blog and basically flame the person's post, which is a lot of what I've been seeing in these threads.
Oh, is THAT what's going on here? I've been reading these threads for an hour now, wondering why everyone's being so cruel. It hadn't even occurred to me that Dan kind of sets the tone in the style of his posts.
...But he kind of does, I guess. Still, it seems kind of disrespectful to comment on someone's blog and basically flame the person's post, which is a lot of what I've been seeing in these threads.
71
@43
those black kids who killed that man were CHILDREN. i also believe they cooperated, confessed and felt remorse. i was outraged when it happened, without knowing their race. the fact that children beat a man in my neighborhood is horrible enough. that doesn't mean they should fry.
why do conservative christians never show the compassion and non-judgement that seems to be the basis of the religion?
those black kids who killed that man were CHILDREN. i also believe they cooperated, confessed and felt remorse. i was outraged when it happened, without knowing their race. the fact that children beat a man in my neighborhood is horrible enough. that doesn't mean they should fry.
why do conservative christians never show the compassion and non-judgement that seems to be the basis of the religion?
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