Wednesday, April 22, 2009
Homo In the Second Gayest City in America
Posted by Dominic Holden on Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 1:21 PM
Even in the second gayest city in America, after San Francisco, Seattle still has closeted married men hitting on teenagers in the sauna. Here’s what happened:
At 8:15 p.m. last Friday night, an officer responded to a 911 call from All Star Fitness in the Seattle Municipal Tower, on Fifth Avenue and Cherry Street. Up on the 14th floor, a police report says, a 17-year-old boy explained that after finishing his workout he entered the sauna, saw a male acquaintance sitting inside, said hello, and sat down. The man commented on the teen’s strong shoulders and asked if they were tense. Of course they were tense, the teen replied. The man started massaging his shoulders and back with both hands, and then began massaging the teen’s leg. The teen commented that his legs were not sore. The police report then says the man “grabbed his arm and kissed it” and then “lifted his arm and kissed his armpit.”
But the teen still did not leave the sauna.
The man told the teen not to tell anyone, and he then said, “I am going to play,” before gesturing with his hand that he was going to masturbate. He asked for the teen to keep a lookout for anyone coming into the sauna. Then another man walked in, and then—and only then—did the teen finally exit the sauna. In the manager’s office, the officer found a very upset teen, who said that he was offended, that he couldn’t believe what had just happened, and that he never thought the man “could have done something like that since he was married,” the police report says. The teen asked that the officer not tell the teen’s parents, who were also there. The manager attempted to confront the man but the man left in a hurry with his wife.
You know, it’s gross if the man knew the teen was a minor but not terribly shocking that a guy is hitting on someone in the sauna—it's happened to me before at my downtown gym. Nor is it surprising that a teen was shocked—or perhaps complicit until someone caught them—when it happened. But… in Seattle? Good lord, gentlemen. Come out of the fucking closet already—there's more elbowroom out here and plenty better ways to meet guys than hitting on them at the gym. And, young man, get a goddamn clue. When a man offers you a massage in the hot, steamy sauna, he wants to rub more than your shoulders. You know this. If you're not into it, the time to get up and leave is, if nothing more, when he starts rubbing you legs and kissing your pits.
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2
Not enough posts about gay shit on slog today. Post at least 15 more items about gay shit by the end of the work day please.
3
But apparently the guy is married, you know, the god-loving kind of married, not the evil gay married, so it's probably the kid's fault.
4
I'm shocked. AllStar is the least cruise-y gym I've ever been to.
I feel like there's more to this story than that --I'm GUESSING the younger guy probably knew what was going on and then felt shame when someone else discovered the interaction.
But I'm guessing.
I feel like there's more to this story than that --I'm GUESSING the younger guy probably knew what was going on and then felt shame when someone else discovered the interaction.
But I'm guessing.
7
Most 17-year-olds look like children. Unless this kid's the rare trompe l'oeil minor, the sauna man's a grade-a creep.
Either way, actually.
Either way, actually.
8
Huh. I always thought Seattle was the gayest city in the USA.
OH, WAIT, you mean "homosexual"... never mind.
OH, WAIT, you mean "homosexual"... never mind.
9
Well, I was going to start going to All Star and cancel my 24 Hour Fitness memebership...guess I am not doing that now.
That is why I never go use the showers or saunas at any gym. I shower at home or work; it's just better and less disgusting.
That is why I never go use the showers or saunas at any gym. I shower at home or work; it's just better and less disgusting.
10
Right and the kid probably deserved it for what he was wearing. This is not sexual harassment how? It was progressively intimate gestures from someone the teen knew. And if it was confusing to the kid or pleasurable or incomprehensible for those brief moments it was happening.... I don't really see how the sexuality demogrphics of the population makes this situation any different.
12
I am confused it is OK that this boy was molested in the sauna at the gym because sex in the sauna happens?
13
If this had been a 17-year-old girl we would probably automatically see her has a victim, passively enduring this creep. However, teen-ager boys vary widely in street-smarts and assertiveness. These comments about how he only complained when they got caught could be way out of line.
14
Is it possible that the teen felt too intimidated to argue or leave until someone else entered (and therefore could provide aid or support)? Implying anything else is making way too many assumptions.
15
Yes, how could that 17-year-old kid not expect to get cruised in the gym? In Seattle? Doesn't he know anything?
Stupid victims.
Stupid victims.
16
17 = old enough to have heard to "bathing-suit area" speech a million times. Not that he was "asking" for it, but that the liked-it-until-he-got-caught scenario seems probable. Also, how old is the married man? This might now be quite-as-offensive a scenario as some think.
17
No, no, no. Hitting on people in the sauna at the gym is not even a little bit OK, any more than a straight dude hitting on a chick on the stationary bike. NOT OK. Instant expulsion. It's not about the gay, it's about the violation of personal and public space.
18
Like I said in the post, it's totally wrong for this guy to hit on anyone in the sauna, especially a minor. And it's not the victim's fault--not at all--but he does need to wise up and get out of these situations once it's clear what's going on.
20
I guess I have a few more pounds to shed, or my gym is the straightest ever, because I've never been cruised.
Also, I hate to say it, but I have to agree with 7. Playing out a may-december porn scenario in a public gym=not likely to end well.
Finally, I gotta believe it would take at least a couple of generations of TOTAL gay acceptance before we'll see the pathetic closet case in the rearview mirror. Think about it, even in the 2nd gayest city, you still have plenty of haters screamin about the homos. And the older the person is, the more likely they grew up hiding. The out high school freshman is a relatively new thing.
Also, I hate to say it, but I have to agree with 7. Playing out a may-december porn scenario in a public gym=not likely to end well.
Finally, I gotta believe it would take at least a couple of generations of TOTAL gay acceptance before we'll see the pathetic closet case in the rearview mirror. Think about it, even in the 2nd gayest city, you still have plenty of haters screamin about the homos. And the older the person is, the more likely they grew up hiding. The out high school freshman is a relatively new thing.
22
This kid is 17-
he should have been posting
nude pictures of himself on the web for 4 years by now-
Who is he trying to kid
with that innocent act?!
he should have been posting
nude pictures of himself on the web for 4 years by now-
Who is he trying to kid
with that innocent act?!
23
It happened to me when I was 17, some drunk guy startled me, just came from behind and touched my hair, then sort of led me to a bench, all this was happening in midday, while I was waiting for a tram... remember being almost paralyzed, my body wouldn't respond to what was going on in my brain, finally snapped out of it when he reached over and touched my genitals...
25
You people are ridiculous -- most kids that age have had sex. I'm not saying it's right, but he definitely had some idea what was going on.
I would say that if he had been a girl as well. Seriously -- have any of you been or seen a teenager in the last ten years?
I would say that if he had been a girl as well. Seriously -- have any of you been or seen a teenager in the last ten years?
26
Fnarf! Thank you for putting things in perspective. Perhaps this give a little bit of light what it is like for a woman being constantly hit on in a men's world.
Other than that, Seattle is officially the 2nd gayest city in the USA? Now that is cool. I figured we were always up there, but #2 (pun not intended)? Pretty good...
btw, if homophobes think that the above story is foder for their beliefs, WRONG! It is about sexual morals and crime, which apply to hetero and homo sexuals just the same.
Other than that, Seattle is officially the 2nd gayest city in the USA? Now that is cool. I figured we were always up there, but #2 (pun not intended)? Pretty good...
btw, if homophobes think that the above story is foder for their beliefs, WRONG! It is about sexual morals and crime, which apply to hetero and homo sexuals just the same.
27
#2: Um.... there's still waaaaaaaaaaaay more straight shit all over SLOG. And the rest of the internet.
However, you don't hear me whining about it like a little bitch.
Grow up.
However, you don't hear me whining about it like a little bitch.
Grow up.
28
Depends @19 on whether the 17 year-old in question wanted to be hit on, actively encouraged being hit on, and willingly participated after being hit on.
29
He was tempted by him!
As it sayeth in the Bible, thou shalt not sin, unless God's not looking, in which case you get a free pass - and so long as you're married you're still straight.
As it sayeth in the Bible, thou shalt not sin, unless God's not looking, in which case you get a free pass - and so long as you're married you're still straight.
31
@17: Some people CONSENSUALLY hit on each other in the sauna -- there's a huge difference there. I'm not defending gym cruising, but if it has traditionally been a way for married and/or closeted gay/bi-curious men to find each other. I think it's incredibly rare for someone to be solicited who isn't giving obvious signs that they're on the hunt.
33
well ..... where is the story?
I have never been in a gym or sauna or steam room any where, any time that i did not get hit on
so ... you say no thanks, or later, or give them a phone number, or go to someplace private and get it on..are all the posters here rube town hicks?
in Ancient Rome the baths were an opens sexual venue ... as they are in any city on the planet ... so what is the news ... the kid got scared of getting caught .... or mommie is uptight ... whoopie doopie
the funny post is the uptight prude who showers at home for fear he will see a hard cock, do you wear jammies to bed too cause it is scary to be naked?
and this discussion does not even begin to deal with all the straight folks who fuck their brains out in steams or sauna ... some EVEN married
course not, that is spring love and so very natural .... and to be expected by "straight people"
I have never been in a gym or sauna or steam room any where, any time that i did not get hit on
so ... you say no thanks, or later, or give them a phone number, or go to someplace private and get it on..are all the posters here rube town hicks?
in Ancient Rome the baths were an opens sexual venue ... as they are in any city on the planet ... so what is the news ... the kid got scared of getting caught .... or mommie is uptight ... whoopie doopie
the funny post is the uptight prude who showers at home for fear he will see a hard cock, do you wear jammies to bed too cause it is scary to be naked?
and this discussion does not even begin to deal with all the straight folks who fuck their brains out in steams or sauna ... some EVEN married
course not, that is spring love and so very natural .... and to be expected by "straight people"
34
@31, I don't give a shit if it's "traditional" or consensual. The sauna at the gym is a public space. It's no more acceptable to get funky in there than it is in the middle of the crosswalk. That sauna is for me, too, and I don't want to see it there -- nor would I if I WAS gay. It's for saunas. Get a fucking room.
You too, Baconcat and Kim in Portland.
You too, Baconcat and Kim in Portland.
36
@34: I'm not saying you should "get funky" in there, but why isn't flirting acceptable. You seem to be conflating gym sex with "a straight dude hitting on a chick on the stationary bike."
37
@26 Keep making excuses for gays who consistently try pushing the envelope because of the gender differences in how we handle sex crimes. Homos are constantly invading the personal space of heteros in gyms, even if not overtly and physically. This type of conduct only furthers the negative stereotypes the majority (e.g, heteros) have about gays. The fact that gyms have consistently been proven to be cruising grounds for the gay community, and now increasingly behaviour like this gives greater credence to their legitimate fear. They shouldn't have to be subjected to the looks, leers and "cruising" that can't be legislated away.
Rather they are forced to co-exist with people of the same gender who wish to ogle and visually assault their bodies. It is no wonder the community thinks this way when we see gay leaders such as Dan Savage, and others endorsing the behavior of the Portland mayor and quasi justifying the behavior of this sick deviant pervert.
Keep making excuses for the behavior boys. I'm sure it is helping your cause.
Rather they are forced to co-exist with people of the same gender who wish to ogle and visually assault their bodies. It is no wonder the community thinks this way when we see gay leaders such as Dan Savage, and others endorsing the behavior of the Portland mayor and quasi justifying the behavior of this sick deviant pervert.
Keep making excuses for the behavior boys. I'm sure it is helping your cause.
38
@34 Fnarf is exactly right.
@36 Jigae makes my point with his idiotic response prior to mine.
'nuff said.
@36 Jigae makes my point with his idiotic response prior to mine.
'nuff said.
39
OH GOD - the horror of gym pick up games.
OH GOD - the horror of a cruise at the QFC.
OH GOD - think of the horror in a park. In a bar, in a cafe, the toy shop, dog groomers.
It is just all too horrible to even think of.
Gay men can only meet at approved potlucks, like Lesbians.
Fnarf is correct, instant pariah status, kick them out, send them away from decent people.
OH GOD - the horror of a cruise at the QFC.
OH GOD - think of the horror in a park. In a bar, in a cafe, the toy shop, dog groomers.
It is just all too horrible to even think of.
Gay men can only meet at approved potlucks, like Lesbians.
Fnarf is correct, instant pariah status, kick them out, send them away from decent people.
41
38 is right about 34 being right, and I am right when I say this: Of course 17-year-olds are having sex, but 17-year-olds are also kind of stupid, and it's best if they have their stupid teenage sex with other stupid teenagers, not adults who should know better and stay out of it.
43
"visually assault"
#37, put your jammies back on, your wife might see your dick.
This is getting so homophobic it is classic, and Slog of all places.
Thank god for gay bars, just make sure straight folks like these stay out.
QUEER SPACE FOREVER, read the crap above to answer why.
#37, put your jammies back on, your wife might see your dick.
This is getting so homophobic it is classic, and Slog of all places.
Thank god for gay bars, just make sure straight folks like these stay out.
QUEER SPACE FOREVER, read the crap above to answer why.
44
I work out there too and have been hit on by several creepster old men in the sauna. Don't care if they're married or not, they just can't seem to keep their towels on...rather nasty...
Get a clue...if I'm not showing you my dick, I'm probably not interested in seeing yours...
Get a clue...if I'm not showing you my dick, I'm probably not interested in seeing yours...
45
Reminds me of the time I was in the steam room at the Downtown Y on 4th, and some old fat dude, naked and with no towel, who was seated across from me spread his legs and said, "Great steam room, isn't it?" I said "yeah," did not look anywhere in the fat old dude's vicinity, and left after a minute.
I stuck to the sauna after that. The Downtown Y's sauna didn't attract the pervs.
I stuck to the sauna after that. The Downtown Y's sauna didn't attract the pervs.
46
@42 - um, I remember lots of guys who were pretty young doing that when we worked in construction - you just want to get clean and relax, then go for a dip in the pool. At least one of us was straight (me), although I thought all of us were.
You got a problem with that?
You got a problem with that?
47
@37 FTW
There is no doubt the gay community needs to do a better job of policing their own ranks.
Unfortunately those types of behaviors are rewarded often enough to make the attempts worthwhile.
There is no doubt the gay community needs to do a better job of policing their own ranks.
Unfortunately those types of behaviors are rewarded often enough to make the attempts worthwhile.
48
@47: "policing their own ranks?"
WTF do you even mean? Gays need t make sure we all present a family-friendly facade for political gain, while living a completely non-normative kinky life in the shadows? How does closeting one's actual behavior help anyone in the long run.
Gosh, I wish "the blacks" were better at policing their own ranks. It's a shame "those Muslims" act so muslim. Jesus.
WTF do you even mean? Gays need t make sure we all present a family-friendly facade for political gain, while living a completely non-normative kinky life in the shadows? How does closeting one's actual behavior help anyone in the long run.
Gosh, I wish "the blacks" were better at policing their own ranks. It's a shame "those Muslims" act so muslim. Jesus.
49
Schmader who draws a check from the Stranger is now protecting the theory of a 17 year old male being protected from normal sexual escapades which involve cocks and rubs in a sauna?
I know it is Earth Day, but, did someone pull the plug on gay sexual liberation and I missed the message?
I know it is Earth Day, but, did someone pull the plug on gay sexual liberation and I missed the message?
51
Re: gay sexual liberation: Everyone turns 18 soon enough, if you're interested in galavanting with the younger end of the available spectrum. Until then, let the kids play with the kids.
52
#47
Yeah, honey, it is called trolling for straight meat/trade .... and works just fine.
Since you guys rarely get the good head from your ladies, and, maybe not so often ... you are very vulnerable.
Sorry, gay men have straight men figured out to a pulse. Most of us are very expert. If you only knew.
Yeah, honey, it is called trolling for straight meat/trade .... and works just fine.
Since you guys rarely get the good head from your ladies, and, maybe not so often ... you are very vulnerable.
Sorry, gay men have straight men figured out to a pulse. Most of us are very expert. If you only knew.
53
@51: I think @49 was also talking about you agreeing with a seemingly blatant homophobe who believes he is constantly being leered at at the gym. That's a little funny from the alternative weekly that sponsors HUMP.
54
@48,
Gays need not sexually harass or assault other men, whether gay or straight.
And while all of you may think that the story @23 is so fucking hilarious, Jan has made a very good point. Much of the time, when people are assaulted, their response is to freeze up, a deer in headlights effect. The kid not doing anything about the assault doesn't mean he enjoyed it in any way, nor does it mean what Dom proposes, which is that he couldn't understand what was going on. The kid knew the guy for fuck's sake and, up to that point, probably didn't have reason to distrust him.
I'm not sure how to react to gay men making the same excuses for sexually harassment and assault that straight men make, but maybe this will enlighten some straight men as to what it feels like to hear this shit.
Gays need not sexually harass or assault other men, whether gay or straight.
And while all of you may think that the story @23 is so fucking hilarious, Jan has made a very good point. Much of the time, when people are assaulted, their response is to freeze up, a deer in headlights effect. The kid not doing anything about the assault doesn't mean he enjoyed it in any way, nor does it mean what Dom proposes, which is that he couldn't understand what was going on. The kid knew the guy for fuck's sake and, up to that point, probably didn't have reason to distrust him.
I'm not sure how to react to gay men making the same excuses for sexually harassment and assault that straight men make, but maybe this will enlighten some straight men as to what it feels like to hear this shit.
55
Fnarf @ 34,
Perhaps, I'm in need of a cup of tea. I don't get your mention of me in your post. In fact I didn't get Baconcat's mention of me in #5, which is why I inquired.
I'm going to make that cup of tea. Maybe, I'll clue in then?
Perhaps, I'm in need of a cup of tea. I don't get your mention of me in your post. In fact I didn't get Baconcat's mention of me in #5, which is why I inquired.
I'm going to make that cup of tea. Maybe, I'll clue in then?
57
@55: I think he was saying that it seemed like the two of you were flirting, or at least that Baconcat was?
58
Dear All Lustful Inhabitants of Seattle (gay or straight):
When you see someone who makes you go all Willy Wonka in your groinal regions, post it to CL Missed Connections for the collective entertainment of the area. You may be immortalized as a Best Of, which is far better than ending up immortalized in a police report.
That is all.
When you see someone who makes you go all Willy Wonka in your groinal regions, post it to CL Missed Connections for the collective entertainment of the area. You may be immortalized as a Best Of, which is far better than ending up immortalized in a police report.
That is all.
59
Jigae @ 57,
Okay, thanks. If that was the case on Baconcat's side than I'm honored, but I doubt it (I don't think I'm his type).
Okay, thanks. If that was the case on Baconcat's side than I'm honored, but I doubt it (I don't think I'm his type).
60
@55, I don't know what kind of freaky deal you've got going on with Baconcat. He seems to have a thing for you. Call him, or call the cops, it's up to you.
Jigae, you're being foolish. All I'm saying is, sex acts in the sauna are simply wrong. The sauna is not "gay space", it's "everybody space", and while I have no interest in driving you into a "life in the shadows", I do have an interest in NOT seeing you performing sex acts in public. You or anyone else, gay or straight. This creep wasn't "flirting", he was groping and masturbating. There's a difference.
Now, if you're in a gay bathhouse, maybe the rules are different. But this is a gym -- not a gay gym; just a gym.
Inappropriate sexual advances are always wrong. Public sexual conduct is always wrong. That's not homophobic. It's just reality. You want to flirt, wink, nudge, talk, dance, make dates, that's fine: go for it. You want to play with your penis in the sauna, and put your hands on others? That's not fine.
You are doing a terrible disservice to all of the other people, gay and straight, who just want to work out at the gym, when you pretend otherwise.
BTW, being naked in the sauna or steam room by itself isn't inappropriate at all. It's what you do with it. I used to go to Olympic in Ballard, and I saw more fat elderly guy's junk in there than you could shake a stick at. This was not sexual behavior.
Jigae, you're being foolish. All I'm saying is, sex acts in the sauna are simply wrong. The sauna is not "gay space", it's "everybody space", and while I have no interest in driving you into a "life in the shadows", I do have an interest in NOT seeing you performing sex acts in public. You or anyone else, gay or straight. This creep wasn't "flirting", he was groping and masturbating. There's a difference.
Now, if you're in a gay bathhouse, maybe the rules are different. But this is a gym -- not a gay gym; just a gym.
Inappropriate sexual advances are always wrong. Public sexual conduct is always wrong. That's not homophobic. It's just reality. You want to flirt, wink, nudge, talk, dance, make dates, that's fine: go for it. You want to play with your penis in the sauna, and put your hands on others? That's not fine.
You are doing a terrible disservice to all of the other people, gay and straight, who just want to work out at the gym, when you pretend otherwise.
BTW, being naked in the sauna or steam room by itself isn't inappropriate at all. It's what you do with it. I used to go to Olympic in Ballard, and I saw more fat elderly guy's junk in there than you could shake a stick at. This was not sexual behavior.
61
@60: I said flirting was ok, but sex was inappropriate. Was I being unclear or do you classify flirting as a "sex act?"
62
1)Y'all are encouraging this guy to come out of the closet, but why are you assuming he is gay? The dude could be bi, (he is married after all)...He's still a scumbucket for feeling up a kid, THAT HE KNOWS, in a sauna but that doesn't make him "gay" that just means he likes to have sex with men. It's not the same thing.
2)Regardless of the kid's sexuality, he doesn't deserve to be felt up in a sauna...but, he also needs to wisen the hell up.
3)If you think someone is gay, then why the fuck can't you pick them up in the sauna? As long as you're not fucking or irritating other people, (frankly, I think everyone needs to be SILENT in the sauna).
2)Regardless of the kid's sexuality, he doesn't deserve to be felt up in a sauna...but, he also needs to wisen the hell up.
3)If you think someone is gay, then why the fuck can't you pick them up in the sauna? As long as you're not fucking or irritating other people, (frankly, I think everyone needs to be SILENT in the sauna).
63
You seemed to be vociferously defending hitting on people in the sauna. That's not what saunas are for. If I misunderstood you, I'm sorry. I might have been addressing "Reggie" up there at 33, who thinks that it's "natural" to "fuck each other's brains out" in the steam room.
64
@63: I think I could have been more clear -- I reread all the comments (and my head hurts now) and I think we both misunderstood each other. I'd rather have no human contact at the gym at all, but I have known straight and gay couples who've met at the gym after recognizing mutual interest.
I think a lot of this comes down to being polite and observant. Most offenders KNOW the other person isn't interested, but charge ahead anyways.
Slog is a constant reminder to improve my electronic communication and give other people the benefit of the doubt.
I think a lot of this comes down to being polite and observant. Most offenders KNOW the other person isn't interested, but charge ahead anyways.
Slog is a constant reminder to improve my electronic communication and give other people the benefit of the doubt.
65
#63
why would it not be natural? wrong place? wrong position? didn't get your permission?
I bet you were a hall monitor in grade school
why would it not be natural? wrong place? wrong position? didn't get your permission?
I bet you were a hall monitor in grade school
66
@61,
What about unwanted touching and kissing, followed up by unwanted public masturbation?
This married man took a huge chance coming onto someone he wasn't 100 percent sure was into him. (What are the odds that his wife isn't going to find out about this now?) I'm certain that he was counting on the kid to be the perfect victim, someone too ashamed and shocked to speak up either during the harassment/assault or after. That makes the creep in this story a predator. Why do you have so much invested in defending him?
What about unwanted touching and kissing, followed up by unwanted public masturbation?
This married man took a huge chance coming onto someone he wasn't 100 percent sure was into him. (What are the odds that his wife isn't going to find out about this now?) I'm certain that he was counting on the kid to be the perfect victim, someone too ashamed and shocked to speak up either during the harassment/assault or after. That makes the creep in this story a predator. Why do you have so much invested in defending him?
67
Fnarf has long played the I am more gay that gays on Slog. It is notable he is not very liberated and has a lot of bad energy about where and now gay men fuck each other.
What about parks, under a blanket of course, but, obviously fucking, like the straight kids in love do all the time?
Is that OK?
What about parks, under a blanket of course, but, obviously fucking, like the straight kids in love do all the time?
Is that OK?
68
@64,
In that case, ignore what I wrote @66.
But you, the asshole @65, eat shit, you motherfucker. Give that story to the judge. I'm sure he/she will be very sympathetic.
In that case, ignore what I wrote @66.
But you, the asshole @65, eat shit, you motherfucker. Give that story to the judge. I'm sure he/she will be very sympathetic.
70
@66: You're taking what I said out of context. I was responding to Fnarf and talking about gym interactions in the abstract, not in this particular case.
I'm not invested in defending this man. I think there's equal chances he's a predator or was involved in semi-consensual, but still illegal behavior.
I'm curious about why everyone is so invested into transforming the younger man into a victim. I think this has a lot to do with the commenter's politics, views on sex, and our pervasive American double-standards about age and propriety.
I'm not invested in defending this man. I think there's equal chances he's a predator or was involved in semi-consensual, but still illegal behavior.
I'm curious about why everyone is so invested into transforming the younger man into a victim. I think this has a lot to do with the commenter's politics, views on sex, and our pervasive American double-standards about age and propriety.
72
It's interesting that everyone assumes the creepy molester was an old guy when no age is mentioned. Perhaps he was a creepy 20-something. Just because he's married doesn't mean he's a geezer.
73
The age of consent in Washington State is 16.
I am not sure what all the discussion is about nothing illegal has been done other than public sex which is both disgusting and illegal but not uncommon. You can also say it is disgusting because the guy is married and older but not illegal.
I am not sure what all the discussion is about nothing illegal has been done other than public sex which is both disgusting and illegal but not uncommon. You can also say it is disgusting because the guy is married and older but not illegal.
76
@74, I'm sorry I offended you, Kim. I was trying to be funny. I guess I missed the mark. I do that a lot. But, since you asked, I'm in a great mood. I'm thinking about TORTILLAS!
77
Fnarf,
I'm not offended. It is kind a default thing for me to inquire, especially if I don't know a person's sense of humor. It seems we are both in a great mood. But,I'm thinking Irish whiskey and playing slide guitar.
Have fun1
I'm not offended. It is kind a default thing for me to inquire, especially if I don't know a person's sense of humor. It seems we are both in a great mood. But,I'm thinking Irish whiskey and playing slide guitar.
Have fun1
79
Here's a question I have often asked.
Given: Seattle is in the Top 3 of Gayness.
What is the Straightest City in America?
And more specifically, what is the Best City in America for a Dude to Get Laid by a Chick...A Hot Chick...
What is America's Best City for Straight Dudes (Answer: Not Seattle) ?
Here's a question I have often asked.
Given: Seattle is in the Top 3 of Gayness.
What is the Straightest City in America?
And more specifically, what is the Best City in America for a Dude to Get Laid by a Chick...A Hot Chick...
What is America's Best City for Straight Dudes (Answer: Not Seattle) ?
80
All the talk of "unwanted sex" and "unwanted" flirting" etc makes me wonder how anyone knows beforehand if it they are unwanted advances?
How do you show people their advances are unwanted?? By saying STOP IT and walking away. Staying a while might indicate wanting......
How do you show people their advances are unwanted?? By saying STOP IT and walking away. Staying a while might indicate wanting......
82
This sounds right to me. The kids said that he couldn’t believe what had just happened, and that he never thought the man “could have done something like that since he was married,” If there's a creepy middle aged guy in the shower room checking out everyone who comes in, that puts you on your guard. But meeting a married acquaintance lowers your guard. And having your shoulders rubbed is not suspicious. It's the progression of one thing to the next, where you can't exactly figure out where the "innocent" part ended and the "Must. leave. Now." part begins.
It's different for girls because they can safely assume that every guy, even kindly retired Mr. Wilson next door, wants to get into their pants. (Although chicks are surprised even then.)
For guys who don't want to get hit on, is there a list of cruisy spots too avoid in Seattle? Or they could carry one of these signs around with them:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/swanksalot/…
It's different for girls because they can safely assume that every guy, even kindly retired Mr. Wilson next door, wants to get into their pants. (Although chicks are surprised even then.)
For guys who don't want to get hit on, is there a list of cruisy spots too avoid in Seattle? Or they could carry one of these signs around with them:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/swanksalot/…
83
What is America's Best City for Straight Dudes
Washington, D.C. has the highest ratio of young chick to single guy that I have seen.
San Francisco is actually not bad, because there are more straight single women than straight single guys.
Washington, D.C. has the highest ratio of young chick to single guy that I have seen.
San Francisco is actually not bad, because there are more straight single women than straight single guys.
84
"If you're not into it, the time to get up and leave is, if nothing more, when he starts rubbing you legs and kissing your pits."
Fuck that. Get up and leave to notify management and get the creepo banished from the club, maybe. But don't just cede public space to people who don't respect personal boundaries.
Fuck that. Get up and leave to notify management and get the creepo banished from the club, maybe. But don't just cede public space to people who don't respect personal boundaries.
85
@82: Sorry, the longer I think about this, the more I think: No normal (typical, normative, average) teenage male is going to let some older dude massage his shoulders, especially half-naked in the steamroom.
Most would make an excuse, leave, and then tell all their friends in homeroom Monday: "You know Mr. Smith? BIG HOMO."
I agree the older guy utilized the slippery slope, but the younger man had to know something was up.
Most would make an excuse, leave, and then tell all their friends in homeroom Monday: "You know Mr. Smith? BIG HOMO."
I agree the older guy utilized the slippery slope, but the younger man had to know something was up.
86
No normal (typical, normative, average) teenage male is going to let some older dude massage his shoulders
Damn straight. Next time a man brushes against me in the gym, I'm gonna holler "Fag!" and beat the shit out of him.
Damn straight. Next time a man brushes against me in the gym, I'm gonna holler "Fag!" and beat the shit out of him.
87
@86 - So in your world, giving someone a massage and kissing their armpit is the same thing as brushing up against you?
For a normative straight male, you've got some fucked up personal space issues. Have you considered therapy?
For a normative straight male, you've got some fucked up personal space issues. Have you considered therapy?
88
So in your world, giving someone a massage and kissing their armpit is the same thing as brushing up against you?
From reading the comments of jigae, aislinn, and hartiepie, I have learned:
1. No touch from a man in a gym is innocent.
2. Failure to immediately protest the first touch means you're enjoying it, you acquiesce to it, and you're in fact granting the other guy permission to at least start whacking it in front of you, if not actually to bend you over a bench. The slippery slope is more like falling off a cliff.
From reading the comments of jigae, aislinn, and hartiepie, I have learned:
1. No touch from a man in a gym is innocent.
2. Failure to immediately protest the first touch means you're enjoying it, you acquiesce to it, and you're in fact granting the other guy permission to at least start whacking it in front of you, if not actually to bend you over a bench. The slippery slope is more like falling off a cliff.
89
@88: Do you seriously get back massages from your bros in the steamroom and sauna? I have been to a lot of gyms: straight gyms, gay gyms, college gyms, corporate gyms, expensive gyms and YMCAs and never have I ever seen two men engaging in harmless buddy shoulder rubs.
I'm not trying to enforce heteronormativity or a fear of healthy touch but the only place I have actually seen two "straight" men exchange steamroom massages is gay porn.
I'm not trying to enforce heteronormativity or a fear of healthy touch but the only place I have actually seen two "straight" men exchange steamroom massages is gay porn.
90
never have I ever seen two men engaging in harmless buddy shoulder rubs.
OMG! Was President Bush about to lick Angela Merkel's armpit?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dfrHT8o-…
Or is it only in the gym environment that all touches are sexualized?
I keep thinking we're going back to the 1950's on this.
OMG! Was President Bush about to lick Angela Merkel's armpit?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dfrHT8o-…
Or is it only in the gym environment that all touches are sexualized?
I keep thinking we're going back to the 1950's on this.
91
#89...uh, yeah, i've seen two men touch other in a sauna without it being sexual but they were usually foreign born. Americans seem to have the biggest hang-ups about non-sexual intimacy and comradeship.
92
@26
Actually, I think the creepy sauna guy is a model citizen, as far as religious right homophobes are concerned. If they had their way, all of us faggots and dykes would enter sham marriages with members of the opposite sex and then have anonymous sex with men in out-of-the-way places, only to be imprisoned or executed if caught. Just like in the good ol' days.
Actually, I think the creepy sauna guy is a model citizen, as far as religious right homophobes are concerned. If they had their way, all of us faggots and dykes would enter sham marriages with members of the opposite sex and then have anonymous sex with men in out-of-the-way places, only to be imprisoned or executed if caught. Just like in the good ol' days.
93
I go to that gym and believe me, it's hardly cruisey at all, which is what I like about it. I don't want AllStar to get a bad reputation just because of this one incident. I even have a fairly good idea who the 17-year-old is because there are very few minors there. If it's who I suspect it is, the kid is a bit loony already and most likely gay by the way he stares at my workout partner. Not that it gives the older married man any license to make advances, but at the same time that kid should have known better and taken responsibility for his own safety and walked out from the get-go. I have to agree with other posters' sentiments that on some level he welcomed it and only left because he was on the verge of getting caught.
Now what I want to do is figure out who the married creep is!
Now what I want to do is figure out who the married creep is!
94
at the same time that kid should have known better and taken responsibility for his own safety and walked out from the get-go.
A fine bit of victim blaming. Silence does not give consent.
By this logic, there's no such thing as date rape, either, because the woman would have left long before the guy took his member out. By not fleeing into the night, she clearly wanted it. Try this idea out at the next NOW chapter meeting, and see how far it gets.
A fine bit of victim blaming. Silence does not give consent.
By this logic, there's no such thing as date rape, either, because the woman would have left long before the guy took his member out. By not fleeing into the night, she clearly wanted it. Try this idea out at the next NOW chapter meeting, and see how far it gets.
95
Back and shoulder rubs from an acquaintance, the message is not so direct and clear. But kissing my armpit IS pretty clear and requires one of two responses: Either it's, "No thank you," or it's, "Stick IT in me." Even for a 17 year old, that should be a no-brainer.
96
Amazing how all these straight people are laying the morality trail down for gay men when their own shit is so fucked.
Go away.
This "kid" will be in the bars in a year with fake ID. And that is a damn fine thing, that he can finally get all the male cock and ass he wants without fear from the straight men around and his mother and the family church mongers.
Go kid. Go for it. It is YOUR life. Ignore the neo puritans posting here on Slog.
By the way, coffins are the final refuge from any queer guy looking at you, touching your arm or back, or even telling you you are good looking. You all will be safe soon enough.
Go away.
This "kid" will be in the bars in a year with fake ID. And that is a damn fine thing, that he can finally get all the male cock and ass he wants without fear from the straight men around and his mother and the family church mongers.
Go kid. Go for it. It is YOUR life. Ignore the neo puritans posting here on Slog.
By the way, coffins are the final refuge from any queer guy looking at you, touching your arm or back, or even telling you you are good looking. You all will be safe soon enough.
97
Do straight guys get their arm pits licked?
Or is that in the same class as blow jobs - not nearly as often as they would like ...
Also try ear eating and sucking ... the good fag secrets are coming out ... sorry guys
Or is that in the same class as blow jobs - not nearly as often as they would like ...
Also try ear eating and sucking ... the good fag secrets are coming out ... sorry guys
98
87, 89: You're really dense.
gj, 86/88. Would lol again.
Also, some of you have probably sexualized molestation [or internalized homophobic violence] to a point where you obviously can't see that a 17 year old male would be FREAKED OUT and not do anything because he's never had a 30-something dude KISS HIS ARMPIT [in public!]. No, he obviously wanted it or else he would have bashed the guy's head in and cried "homosexual panic!" to the jury.
17 year old hormonal constantly horny possibly closeted boy or not, that doesn't excuse the guy from being a leach.
gj, 86/88. Would lol again.
Also, some of you have probably sexualized molestation [or internalized homophobic violence] to a point where you obviously can't see that a 17 year old male would be FREAKED OUT and not do anything because he's never had a 30-something dude KISS HIS ARMPIT [in public!]. No, he obviously wanted it or else he would have bashed the guy's head in and cried "homosexual panic!" to the jury.
17 year old hormonal constantly horny possibly closeted boy or not, that doesn't excuse the guy from being a leach.
99
@98: Right. All sex involving men is rape and consent is impossible. Glad to see first wave feminism is alive and well.
Many of my friends were actively seeking out sex with older men at 17. It's sad that they were such happy victims of our culture.
American straight men don't say yes to naked massages from other men. It's a very public place -- I've seen it. It would be easy to leave. I'm sorry if he felt trapped, but I think that's an unlikely chain of events.
Many of my friends were actively seeking out sex with older men at 17. It's sad that they were such happy victims of our culture.
American straight men don't say yes to naked massages from other men. It's a very public place -- I've seen it. It would be easy to leave. I'm sorry if he felt trapped, but I think that's an unlikely chain of events.
100
attention all rambling idiots:
allstar is a great gym.
things like this happen ALL THE TIME EVERYWHERE, not just allstar fitness.
yes, this should be looked at by the police.
no, this does not make the gym "dirty" or "unclean."
episodes like this happen whether it is a gay, straight, single or married man/woman.
SO QUIT TALKING SHIT ABOUT ALLSTAR!
allstar is a great gym.
things like this happen ALL THE TIME EVERYWHERE, not just allstar fitness.
yes, this should be looked at by the police.
no, this does not make the gym "dirty" or "unclean."
episodes like this happen whether it is a gay, straight, single or married man/woman.
SO QUIT TALKING SHIT ABOUT ALLSTAR!
101
Having detailed knowledge of this incident, it is quite amazing to me reading some of the quite ignorant posts. Opinion on the brief facts given is understandable. Speculation on specifics of the individuals involved simply shows an ignorance that I would not expect from an intelligent adult with ANY perspective on how complex human behavior is. Only in complete ignorance could someone who didn't know the victim say, "He HAD to have known what was going on/wanted it/been closet gay". 1. He was definitely a victim of a crime. 2. The alledged perpetrator was expelled from the gym, and police reported this guy had a similar incident at a gym 4 years ago. 3. This is incredibly RARE. The person who said they wouldn't join the gym after this may as well never join a gym anywhere, 2nd gayest city or not. Eventually, some rare, creepy individual is going to do something completely out of line no matter where you are at. With an approach to crime like that, you may as well live alone in a bunker in Montana and have no social connections whatsoever. What matters is how the incident is handled once it does happen. It was handled appropriately. If behavior like this were tolerated, the police would have never been involved. It would have been swept under the rug to avoid needless and potentially harmful publicity to a great local health club.
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