Slog
News & ArtsWednesday, April 15, 2009
Sex Vermont!
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 10:33 AM
Vermont is now officially my favorite state in the union. This week in "Savage Love" I timidly call on a vague "us" to "reconsider" prosecuting teenagers for "sexting."
A message for concerned parents, outraged school officials, and teen-sex-obsessed prosecutors: We're gonna have to either make it illegal for teenagers to own camsphonescomputers, or we're gonna have to give them drugs to delay the onset of puberty until after they're 18. If we're unable or unwilling to do those things—technology is hard to contain, and delaying puberty could have unwelcome health consequences (although it would have spared Levi Johnston's DNA from the ignominy of mixing with the Palins')—then the intersection of horny teens and newer technologies is going to require us to rethink the simplistic application of laws that criminalize the possession and distribution of sexty (ugh) pictures, particularly in cases where they were created by teenagers, for teenagers.
The Vermont state legislature is way out in front of me. They're not just rethinking the application of laws that criminalize sexting. They're talking about legalizing sexting.
Vermont’s Legislature is considering a bill that, if approved, would make the state one of the first in the nation to grant legal protections to teenagers who send sexually explicit photos and videos to one another with their cell phones.... Time has come, advocates said, to align law, technology and teenagers’ use of it as they begin exploring their sexuality.“They’re doing it,” Chittenden County State’s Attorney T.J. Donovan said. “We don’t want to condone it. We need to educate. But there’s no public interest in labeling them as sex offenders for engaging in a perverted, albeit new, form of courtship.”
Yes, "they're" doing it—those horny, perverted, tech-savvy teenagers are sexting. But they're not the only ones doing it. They're just the only ones getting into trouble for doing it. Adults are indulging in this "perverted, albeit new, form of courtship," without winding up on sex-offender registries. The law has to be changed not just to protect teenagers from malicious, sexphobic prosecution, but to bring it into line with reality. Right now it's perfectly legal in Vermont for a 18-year-old to have sex with his 16-year-old girlfriend—oral sex, anal sex, vaginal sex, ATM, BDSM, CBT, whatever—but they can both go to jail and land on sex-offenders registries for life if his 16-year-old girlfriend sends him a picture of her tits. That's just nuts.
1
Why not?
13 year olds are totally mature enough to consent to posting nude pictures of themself on the Internet,
or having sex with their Youth Minister,
or marrying a 55 year old polygamist.
13 year olds are totally mature enough to consent to posting nude pictures of themself on the Internet,
or having sex with their Youth Minister,
or marrying a 55 year old polygamist.
2
Again -- parents, where are you? No child should be taking nude pictures of themselves and especially letting said shots outside of their sphere of immediate influence. As we've seen from "I'm not a homo" boy, these things can take on a life of their own and they stay around FOREVER!
Whether or not it's illegal is really not the point. It's DUMB! Please kids, whip 'em out in private. Just realize that every picture you send to the guy/girl that you're going to love for the rest of your life and marry, is going to wind up spread all over your community when you have that nasty break up.
Whether or not it's illegal is really not the point. It's DUMB! Please kids, whip 'em out in private. Just realize that every picture you send to the guy/girl that you're going to love for the rest of your life and marry, is going to wind up spread all over your community when you have that nasty break up.
4
Good, now to make it perfect all we need is for VT to secede, you to move there and for the US government to build a wall there instead of wasting our tax payers dollars on the one in the border with Mexico.
6
Great news for teens! This is another step towards recognizing the basic rights of people under 18. They deserve to not be treated as property.
For all those who will be mortified by this development, what did you expect? Chastity belts for all until age 18?
For all those who will be mortified by this development, what did you expect? Chastity belts for all until age 18?
7
@2
Yeah, it's dumb and parents should be more involved. But telling kids to "just say no" never works. They won't think about sex offender registries or prison or anything... they're kids. Kids always do dumb things. That's why there needs to be a law to prevent their dumb-yet-completely-typical-for-dumb-kid behavior from destroying their lives.
Yeah, it's dumb and parents should be more involved. But telling kids to "just say no" never works. They won't think about sex offender registries or prison or anything... they're kids. Kids always do dumb things. That's why there needs to be a law to prevent their dumb-yet-completely-typical-for-dumb-kid behavior from destroying their lives.
8
Loveschild, when do we get to build a wall up around your ignorant bigoted fat ass? Where do I sign to get my tax dollars to pay for that?
9
Thought provoking. I see many of your points, but where do the boundaries lie. Should the age of legal sexting correlate with age of consent for sex? Or is it a free for all, meaning an 11 year could legally send images of himself?
10
7, the laws ain't workin'. They're doing it anyway. Sure it's not the best choice for teens to send nude pictures of themselves via the phone or internet, but it also doesn't mean these kids should be stigmatized for life. Plus we need a bit of perspective here, as dumb things go, this is far from being the worst thing a teens can do.
12
Of course this is a dumb decision but this is what happens when values and morality are done away with. Deviancy starts taking a whole. This is not really that surprising coming from this type of place based on the judgements they have exhibited in the past it's clear that parents there are careless when it comes to their children upbringing. And sadly the kids are the one who will pay for the stupidity of these adults when they start to develop pathologies and act them out.
13
@4: Because Dan is an illegal alien? Or Mexicans all want to be same sex married? Or teens go to Mexico to take nude pictures?
Do you actually have the ability to form cogent thought?
Do you actually have the ability to form cogent thought?
14
@10
Um, I think we're agreeing with each other. Kids shouldn't be penalized for life just for sending a naked pic of themselves. They're gonna send these things whether people tell them to or not.
Um, I think we're agreeing with each other. Kids shouldn't be penalized for life just for sending a naked pic of themselves. They're gonna send these things whether people tell them to or not.
15
Dude, it's Vermont.
It's um, not heavily populated.
Sexting may be lame as heck, but you shouldn't make kids felons for life just cause they act like morons.
It's um, not heavily populated.
Sexting may be lame as heck, but you shouldn't make kids felons for life just cause they act like morons.
16
@12: So your child is sent a nude picture of their boy/girlfriend, gets caught with it and is branded a sex-offender for life. You're cool with that?
17
@7: I hear you, I just would ground my imaginary kid for LIFE if I found out they'd done something that dumb.
18
Yes, because religious people never do anything wrong. (Never mind those recent news stories of the Sunday school teacher who raped and killed a kid, and then stuffed the kid into a suitcase.) All those values, and morality work sooooo well.
Plus, We have to remember that up until the gay rights movement, teens were not sexual beings. They never thought of having sex. They only thought of Jesus, and prayed every night, before they went to bed at 7:30 pm.
Plus, We have to remember that up until the gay rights movement, teens were not sexual beings. They never thought of having sex. They only thought of Jesus, and prayed every night, before they went to bed at 7:30 pm.
19
From what Dan says about how he & Terry are raising DJ, I doubt that he would be thrilled to find a pic of some girl's junk on his kid's phone. Just sayin'...
20
Loveschild, "takes a whole" is not English.
The question is, should a child who sends a sexy pic -- not even nude, but in a bra or something -- be branded a sex offender, which means "will never hold a job for the remainder of his or her life"? What kind of asshole says "yes, brand them"?
Oh, yeah, we know what kind.
The question is, should a child who sends a sexy pic -- not even nude, but in a bra or something -- be branded a sex offender, which means "will never hold a job for the remainder of his or her life"? What kind of asshole says "yes, brand them"?
Oh, yeah, we know what kind.
21
Children are not supposed to be taking pictures of their naked bodies you perv. What about that don't you understand? They're are not physically nor mentally fully developed to be doing that you jerk. Now if my kids ever did some shit like that besides getting a monumental ass whooping from me. But I do believe in deterrence and with a publicly know law on the books I know that the great majority of kids will think it twice before taking any snap shots of their private parts.
I swear to God, Slog has become pedophilia central.
I swear to God, Slog has become pedophilia central.
22
Good luck with repressing your children's own hormones and desires Loveschild. Parent of the year material you are.
god you are a fat ignorant bigot.
Acknowledging and accepting a human beings growth into an adult DOES NOT EQUAL PEDOPHILE.
god you are a fat ignorant bigot.
Acknowledging and accepting a human beings growth into an adult DOES NOT EQUAL PEDOPHILE.
23
How should teens convicted of sexting be punished? Jail? Juvie? Public flogging? Listening to some religious elitist drone on and on about the superior Christian "moral values"?
24
Right loveschild, just TELL kids not to do it and they'll obey. 100%.
After all, we tell kids not to smoke, do drugs, drink alcohol, and have sex, and it's worked perfectly! No kids ever do any of those things!
After all, we tell kids not to smoke, do drugs, drink alcohol, and have sex, and it's worked perfectly! No kids ever do any of those things!
25
Rob, I think I would rather prefer the public flogging to listening to some christian preaching "moral values"
I wouldn't wish that kind of torture on my worst enemy.
I wouldn't wish that kind of torture on my worst enemy.
26
@21: Yes, but you didn't answer the question. Would you want your child to then be a registered sex offender for the rest of their life?
27
@ 11,
That their would be no age limit. Does sexting need a legal age limit, like to driving or to vote. I am just musing here and above, I have to think about it. I have only just recently become aware of the phenomena.
That their would be no age limit. Does sexting need a legal age limit, like to driving or to vote. I am just musing here and above, I have to think about it. I have only just recently become aware of the phenomena.
29
@28
No, it doesn't need an age limit. People own their own bodies. They also are the final authority on their own sexual development. Barring some older, more mature person exploiting them I don't see the need for these prosecutions (persecutions).
Poor judgment of this nature should not be a crime. It's a matter for the family to deal with.
No, it doesn't need an age limit. People own their own bodies. They also are the final authority on their own sexual development. Barring some older, more mature person exploiting them I don't see the need for these prosecutions (persecutions).
Poor judgment of this nature should not be a crime. It's a matter for the family to deal with.
31
24 They'll obey my hand or the belt. It worked for my grandparents, it worked for my parents and it made God fearing ethical hard working people out of them, it's worked for me and I thank my parents every waking minute of my life for it. And it sure as heck will work for them even if it drives my into and early grave so help me the Almighty! But I will make moral standing men and women out of them.
34
31, So you're for child abuse? What if the belt doesn't work? Do you press their hand to the stove burner? Is that what should happen to teens convicted of sexting? They should be sentenced to be beaten with a belt in public to prevent other children from not living up to your superior standards, and clearly the only true beliefs?
35
Loveschild can NOT be real...I think one of our sock puppets has a fixed identity...
If you are real, and you hate the Slog, why read/comment? You could better spend that time beating your children...
If you are real, and you hate the Slog, why read/comment? You could better spend that time beating your children...
36
33, I go back and forth on that. I mean, no one could possibly be so elitist, heartless and cruel. Then she pulls me back in again. Although someone should report her to child welfare, just in case she really is a parent who abuses her children with a belt. I wonder if Slog can trace her IP provider, and forward her posts to the local authorities?
37
It makes perfect sense to me that Hateschild would beat her kids. And it is lovely how she expressed her Christian compassion in post # 21. I'm sure Jesus would approve.
38
Its legal for an 18 year old to have sex with his 16 year old girlfriend, but its not legal for him to force her to have sex, it has to be her choice. It should be legal for her to send him photos, but not for him to publicize those photos without her permission-- taking away her choice in the matter.
39
34 Stove burner? you truly are a sick mind (figures, you defending sexting).
I'm talking about a good slap on the wrist and correcting when they get out of hand. The same all of our parents and grandparents got when they did something wrong. They turned out right and knowing the difference from right and wrong. Mine are turning out very okay and I have rarely used it thanks to them knowing that I, their father and their teaches and their grandparents will correct them. Because of it they know better than to misbehave and be disrespectful. That Sir is by no means the sort of twisted abuses you have in your dirty mind.
I'm talking about a good slap on the wrist and correcting when they get out of hand. The same all of our parents and grandparents got when they did something wrong. They turned out right and knowing the difference from right and wrong. Mine are turning out very okay and I have rarely used it thanks to them knowing that I, their father and their teaches and their grandparents will correct them. Because of it they know better than to misbehave and be disrespectful. That Sir is by no means the sort of twisted abuses you have in your dirty mind.
40
@38: yes, illegal. But not a SEX OFFENSE. Not requiring him to render as a sex offender for the rest of his life, which means that EVERY SINGLE EMPLOYER OR LANDLORD he will ever attempt to have will assume "rapist" or "child molester" and say "sorry, no".
42
@28- “People own their own bodies. They also are the final authority on their own sexual development.” But they don’t, really, not in America (home of the who now?) (though let’s do keep trying to convince people…)
So, no, kids shouldn’t be taking pics of themselves and I think Kim raises a valid point. When is it okay? If an adult (even at just 18) gets one of these pics, knowing or not that it’s someone underage, are they (under this proposed law) guilty of possessing child porn? I wonder, like Kim I think, where is the line drawn? A child or teen of any age can take a picture of his/herself and send out without being punished. An adult (of any age?) cannot view/possess these images? Or will they be able to?
Could someone argue that the nudey-pics of an eight-year-old found on his computer or phone were taken by the child and not be punished/labeled an offender? It seems like a difficult law to write to cover these eventualities.
So, no, kids shouldn’t be taking pics of themselves and I think Kim raises a valid point. When is it okay? If an adult (even at just 18) gets one of these pics, knowing or not that it’s someone underage, are they (under this proposed law) guilty of possessing child porn? I wonder, like Kim I think, where is the line drawn? A child or teen of any age can take a picture of his/herself and send out without being punished. An adult (of any age?) cannot view/possess these images? Or will they be able to?
Could someone argue that the nudey-pics of an eight-year-old found on his computer or phone were taken by the child and not be punished/labeled an offender? It seems like a difficult law to write to cover these eventualities.
43
The appropriate punishment is to take their cell phones away for a while.
And maybe sign them up for some counseling about appropriate behavior.
Crackberries too.
And maybe sign them up for some counseling about appropriate behavior.
Crackberries too.
44
Loveschild, a fear of being beaten/spanked does not equate an understanding of what is right or a desire to do so. I teach my children what is right and how to speak to people correctly, not by physical punishment, but as "this is how we treat others" (a more biblical view, btw, than beating your child with a belt.) My four-year-old can be the most charming person in the room when she wants to be, a a rude little snot when she's in a snit, but I will not punish her for disrespect, I will continue to teach her with direction and example how to treat others, and she will not fear me. Go read Between Parent and Child for some lovely advise on how to be your child's confidant and teacher, instead of feared master.
45
Allyn, Loveschild is a dom, she doesn't give a shit about being a confidant and teacher. She wants to own slaves, because in the back of her mind she knows that she is a slave herself.
46
@39,
That's what this law is for. If a kid sends a naked pic of his underage girlfriend, wouldn't it be better to slap his wrist (i.e., public humiliation punishment or something) instead of burning his hand on the stove (i.e., making him register as a sex offender)?
I don't think anyone here is defending sexting or naked-picture-sending, but we're being realistic in knowing that kids are going to do it, whether you discipline them or not. You are unrealistically believing that your kids will never do it. I hope they don't, but don't you think it would be nice to be prepared if they do?
That's what this law is for. If a kid sends a naked pic of his underage girlfriend, wouldn't it be better to slap his wrist (i.e., public humiliation punishment or something) instead of burning his hand on the stove (i.e., making him register as a sex offender)?
I don't think anyone here is defending sexting or naked-picture-sending, but we're being realistic in knowing that kids are going to do it, whether you discipline them or not. You are unrealistically believing that your kids will never do it. I hope they don't, but don't you think it would be nice to be prepared if they do?
47
@33,
Mike, you know we all have to keep doing it... it's like looking at a car wreck. You can't help yourself.
Mike, you know we all have to keep doing it... it's like looking at a car wreck. You can't help yourself.
48
@31: My god, you are obtuse. Your child was sent a nude picture by their boyfriend/girlfriend. The authorities found out. Your child is now in the criminal justice system. This is no longer between you, your belt and your child. I am asking -- should your child be branded a sex offender for life?
THIS HYPOTHETICAL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR PREFERRED METHOD OF PUNISHMENT!
THIS HYPOTHETICAL HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR PREFERRED METHOD OF PUNISHMENT!
50
I know, Fnarf, *sigh*. It's just heartbreaking, reading story after story of abused kids, to think that ANY child should fear their parent for ANY reason. God, we're already eight times their size and age and knowledge depth, certainly people can see how we don't need to use physical intimidation as well?
52
44 Of course we all need to first explain to them that what they're doing it's inappropriate and show better judgement when dealing with a toddler but teens are another matter, sometimes they do get rebellious and well all else fails just showing them the belt makes them rethink what they're doing.
I'm very blessed in the sense that I have never used it (precisely because I have taught them right from wrong) they have been schooled a lot on Sundays in church to do what's right. The few times they have gotten out of hand i just showed it to them and believe that's all it's taken. I remember slapping the wrist of one once many years ago and they've never given me reason to do it again. Of course you feel horrible by just even doing that but the consequences of not teaching them are far greater like this sexting news shows. I just give praise to the almighty and marvel at the smart well educated caring and moral people my teens are growing into. And even my two boys who are way beyond six feet tall (lord knows how much they'll grow) and have to look down to talk to me know that when I speak they have to listen and when I say no they say yes mam and that's the end of it.
44 Of course we all need to first explain to them that what they're doing it's inappropriate and show better judgement when dealing with a toddler but teens are another matter, sometimes they do get rebellious and well all else fails just showing them the belt makes them rethink what they're doing.
I'm very blessed in the sense that I have never used it (precisely because I have taught them right from wrong) they have been schooled a lot on Sundays in church to do what's right. The few times they have gotten out of hand i just showed it to them and believe that's all it's taken. I remember slapping the wrist of one once many years ago and they've never given me reason to do it again. Of course you feel horrible by just even doing that but the consequences of not teaching them are far greater like this sexting news shows. I just give praise to the almighty and marvel at the smart well educated caring and moral people my teens are growing into. And even my two boys who are way beyond six feet tall (lord knows how much they'll grow) and have to look down to talk to me know that when I speak they have to listen and when I say no they say yes mam and that's the end of it.
53
I think it is silly kids are punished at all for sexting, I mean it is something they can do that won't get them pregnant or get an STD. Geez, give the kids a break everyone does something they regret later in life but a picture of me in my bra is not nearly as bad as say an unplanned pregnancy or AIDS.
54
Loveschild, obviously this isn't the right thread for this topic and how one prefers to raise their children is a personal and subjective topic of discussion... (Teens rebel against authority, btw, and if you’re the domineering person in their life, they will rebel against you. Just a thought.)
Sexting: bad-ish. Prosecuting teens for sexting: stupid and pointless. Child pornography: gonna have to be defined in the context of sexting, won’t it?
Sexting: bad-ish. Prosecuting teens for sexting: stupid and pointless. Child pornography: gonna have to be defined in the context of sexting, won’t it?
56
Prosecuting teens for showing explicit images of not only themselves but of other minors is correct and more importantly serves as a deterrent not only for them but for predators who would be even more stimulated in their sickness by the abundance of such behaviors. You'll see VT crumble soon if they legalize this.
57
@56. Sure, just after California crumbles into the Pacific for allowing the porn industry to film there and Nevada's buildings and citizens turn to pillars of salt for all the sin they boast.
58
@40-- Yeah, like I said in the last thread where this came up (and I guess I should have added here), I think that this guy should be in trouble because he sent the photos out without his girlfriend's permission. But it clearly isn't child porn and its cases like this that are making the sex offender registry so completely pointless. He should be charged with something like sexual harassment, since as far as I'm concerned distributing naked photos of someone without their permission is harassment that's sexual in nature. On the other hand, if he had had her permission and they sent them out together, then no one should be charged with anything-- the issue here is consent.
So yeah, he shouldn't be charged with child porn or punished quite this harshly, but he shouldn't get away with it either. Its not o.k. to betray and humiliate anyone, and its only worse because its his girlfriend and she's underage.
Now, if there was evidence that she didn't want to take the pictures in the first place and was coerced into it, then maybe these charges would be more appropriate.
So yeah, he shouldn't be charged with child porn or punished quite this harshly, but he shouldn't get away with it either. Its not o.k. to betray and humiliate anyone, and its only worse because its his girlfriend and she's underage.
Now, if there was evidence that she didn't want to take the pictures in the first place and was coerced into it, then maybe these charges would be more appropriate.
59
vitaminwater - excelent point. If the prosecuters were truly concerned with the actions of this boy/man, they'd go after him for harassment. You are completely right in that regard (IMHO). But they're trying to control something truly uncontrollable: human sexuality by a group of people to whom it's new (and therefore going to explore this new sensation for all it's worth).
Now you'll just have to keep repeating yourself until those-who-need-to-hear hear.
Now you'll just have to keep repeating yourself until those-who-need-to-hear hear.
60
A point that might be getting lost: if you make sexters into registered sex offenders, you destroy the meaning of the registry. Now, most people assume the registry only has authentically hard-core bad guys on it. What happens if you register these teens is, your real, honest-to-god, Class A child rapist can tell folks, "oh, yeah, that -- gosh, it's a funny thing, but, you see, I sent a picture of my girlfriend on my cell phone when I was in high school", and there's a good chance you'll say "oh, yeah, I heard about that, crazy, huh?" and there you go, you're in.
If you believe that the sex-offender registry is a good tool to identify and regulate the activities of REAL BAD GUYS, then you should oppose it being watered down by these relatively trivial offenses.
If you believe that the sex-offender registry is a good tool to identify and regulate the activities of REAL BAD GUYS, then you should oppose it being watered down by these relatively trivial offenses.
61
Here's an idea: How about we give kids under age 18 cell phones that don't have camera's in them? And don't have texting capabilities? How about that? They'd still be able to call their families, friends, 911 but all that sexy, sexy fun would be no more.
62
Y.F. @ 61,
That would be a great plan, but I don't think it would ever happen. Too many children feel that the latest technology is an entitlement, and too many parents agree.
That would be a great plan, but I don't think it would ever happen. Too many children feel that the latest technology is an entitlement, and too many parents agree.
63
Fnarf @ 60,
You make a great point. I agree with it. The recent tragedy in Vancouver, WA last month illustrates the importance of keeping the sex offenders registry authentic.
You make a great point. I agree with it. The recent tragedy in Vancouver, WA last month illustrates the importance of keeping the sex offenders registry authentic.
64
Fnarf, all sex that isn't missionary partaken by adults married by an ordained minister (of God, not of the church of Kim in Portland) for the purpose of procreation is an offense, therefore anyone who has sex under any other circumstance is a sex offender
66
@60-- I've heard so many cases of things like 17 year old guys getting put on there for having consensual oral sex with a 15 year old girl, that I already feel like its meaningless. If I met someone who said they were on the registry, I'd have to go look them up to see what it was for before condemning. Are the details of why you're on the list publically available?
@61-- Its not like there aren't legitimate reasons to have a camera. Besides teens who are actually into photography (will we ban photography class too?), there are things like if your parents don't believe where you are and want you to send them a photo to prove it, or if you witness a crime or someone being harassed by the police, etc.
@61-- Its not like there aren't legitimate reasons to have a camera. Besides teens who are actually into photography (will we ban photography class too?), there are things like if your parents don't believe where you are and want you to send them a photo to prove it, or if you witness a crime or someone being harassed by the police, etc.
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
Hating People Doesn't Make Them Thinner by Jen Graves
-
Los Angeles Gay Bar Bans Bachelorette Parties Until Marriage Equality Is Attained by David Schmader
-
Fill in the Blank by Grant Brissey
-
This Reminds Me of the Great Calculator Scare of the Late '70s/Early '80s by David Schmader
-
Idiot Tries to Defend Bigoted Anti-Gay-Marriage Preacher on Anderson Cooper by Paul Constant
-
SL Letter of the Day: Putting It In by Dan Savage
-
Six Moms with Too Much Time on Their Hands and a Shitty Website Decide to Fight Gay Superheroes by Paul Constant
-
Why Mayor McGinn's Wife Canceled Her Family's Seattle Times Subscription by Eli Sanders
-
What the Hell Is Wrong With Seattle's Pride Parade? by Dominic Holden
-
Meet the UW "Swagga Suit" by David Schmader
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (69) RSS