Wednesday, April 15, 2009
City Snapshots of Teabaggers
Posted by Dominic Holden on Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 8:03 PM
About 1000 people who are hoppin' mad that Obama became president, that the government is spending their future, and that their tax dollars are bailing out banks are wrapping up a protest in Westlake Park. They had a "Tea Party" and they call themselves "teabaggers." (More info about the event is in this post.) Here are some of the people at the event:
This is Brady LaMotte, holding an empty Lipton teabag box and swinging the last teabag over his head. He'd given the other 15 teabags to folks to swing over their heads. "Our government is out of control," he says. The problem, according to the Kirkland resident: "Apathy, years of it."
Here's a distorted photo of Tim Eyman's gigantic head as he gets on stage to ballyhoo his latest initiative. "You know what's different about this protest from other protests here?" he asks the crowd. "We are taxpayers. We are pulling the wagon. We can't trust the politicians to decide how big the tax burden should be. People should decide because we are the ones paying the bill." So true, Timmy. I'm also the one paying the bill when I shop at businesses, so I should set prices for everything I buy. Then the economy will be great.
Meet Jennifer Rast. She's a ghost writer from Tacoma and believes Barack Obama is not an American citizen. "He grew up in Kenya," says Rast, who opposes funding for Medicaid. "Government wasn't put here to take care of us," she says.
I asked Gene Mickelson, 64, how she defines socialism. "Taking the human entity down to its lowest common denominator and taking out the will to succeed." That is everything she said about socialism.
More after the jump.
The event organizer, Keli Carender (who blogs under the name Liberty Belle), staged a call to Representative Jim McDermott's office to say his constituents were upset about the state of things. She was outraged when nobody answered the phone, asking the media to take note that nobody answered the phone! It was 6:30 p.m.
These people left shortly after they arrived.
Share via
1
Brady is quite the guy; likes Olive Garden Bread Sticks, CS Lewis and Mark Driscoll!
http://www.facebook.com/people/Brady-LaM…
http://www.facebook.com/people/Brady-LaM…
2
"To protest wasteful spending, you purchased 1 million tea bags? Are you protesting taxes or irony?" - Jon Stewart
4
You know...whatever happened to Crystal Pepsi? I kinda liked that shit.
That sign with the toilet paper reminds me of Jello Biafra's "Become The Media" cover.
That sign with the toilet paper reminds me of Jello Biafra's "Become The Media" cover.
5
Girl: Obama is a socialist!
Me: And what does socialism mean to you? How do you define socialism?
Girl: Actually I dont know what socialism means. I dont know what it is, but our constitution bans it.
Me: What part of the constitution?
Girl: I know your game. You are just picking on the dumb blonde girl.
Me: And what does socialism mean to you? How do you define socialism?
Girl: Actually I dont know what socialism means. I dont know what it is, but our constitution bans it.
Me: What part of the constitution?
Girl: I know your game. You are just picking on the dumb blonde girl.
7
I don't think they actually call themselves teabaggers. No, others have given them this name (a style of debate normally reserved for shit flinging howler monkeys).
If you have seen where they actually call themselves teabaggers, kindly document this for posterity.
If you have seen where they actually call themselves teabaggers, kindly document this for posterity.
8
Man. finally a sign I can believe in!
"Bring Back Crystal Pepsi!" Word up.
I don't even drink soda/pop (seriously, I can't remember the last time I did, but it was probably about a year ago)
but there's an honest chance that I might occasionally partake if Crystal Pepsi were revived.
"Bring Back Crystal Pepsi!" Word up.
I don't even drink soda/pop (seriously, I can't remember the last time I did, but it was probably about a year ago)
but there's an honest chance that I might occasionally partake if Crystal Pepsi were revived.
10
I saw quite a few Chatsworth Osborn III and Thurston Howell III clones. and whatever Chatsworth's girlfriend's name was. and Mrs. Howells (Lovie), too. i didn't see 1000 people at 6pm, though. more like a few hundred.
11
the stupidity of these people is infuriating. I mean, I'm actually really pissed off right now. I'm getting angrier as I write. These people are just totally wrong about everything. The black dude has only been working for 100 FUCKING DAYS! HOW CAN YEAR IGNORE THE PEOPLE WHO WERE IN CHARGE FOR THE LAST 8 YEARS??? WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO CONTROLLED CONGRESS SINCE 1994?? WHY WONT YOU THINK?? If that woman holding the "chains we can believe in" could not tell me what socialism is I do believe I would have rammed the sign right down her fucking throat. Fucking mindless partisans!!! Think! Use your brains! For the love of god!!!!! GAAAAAAAAAHHH!
12
I would like to buy Balls and Pepsi a drink. Seriously: Next Slog Happy, if they're there, their Long Islands are on me.
13
@posterity: I'm sorry, what was that? Oh, you're mistaken? Glad you were man enough to own up to your error.
15
Can we please start a ballot initiative here on Slog to block Tim Eyman from starting any more ballot initiatives? Is that even a possibility?
16
I want to pitch a new reality show to some network (FOX seems the obvious choice), I'll call it "Independence Day" or some other catchy, but otherwise nonsensical title.
The premise is simple: a demographic cross-section of these "gubamint iz EVIL ('cept when it's OUR guys running it)" types, are thrown into a house together; let's say a dozen of them, just to mix things up. It'll be sort of like a Big Brother set-up, and they can rant on-camera to each other to their hearts' content about how fucked up the gubamint is, and whatever.
The sweetener is that they get to go to their regular jobs - assuming they have one - earn their regular paychecks and keep 100% of the money; they won't pay a PENNY in taxes to any municipal, county, state or federal government (the show will, naturally cover these on behalf of the contestants). Cameras will follow them around wherever they go, to capture their newly independent lifestyles, freed from the chains of corrupt, runaway government taxation.
The catch is, they also don't get ANY of the services those governments provide. No garbage pick up, no street cleaning, no 911, no electricity, no water, no gas, no license renewals, no Social Security, Medicare or Medicaid benefits (aside from an amount based on what they actually put into those programs) - in short, nothing they aren't willing to pay for themselves out of their own earnings for the duration of their participation in the program.
The winner will be the one who can last the longest, and they'll get an amount equal to the total taxes that would have been paid by all the contestants for the cumulative time they participated - I figure that'll work out to maybe five or six thou' max depending on the income ranges of the various contestants.
I'm thinking summer replacement series, because I can't imagine it going more than maybe 10 - 12 weeks at the most.
More...
The premise is simple: a demographic cross-section of these "gubamint iz EVIL ('cept when it's OUR guys running it)" types, are thrown into a house together; let's say a dozen of them, just to mix things up. It'll be sort of like a Big Brother set-up, and they can rant on-camera to each other to their hearts' content about how fucked up the gubamint is, and whatever.
The sweetener is that they get to go to their regular jobs - assuming they have one - earn their regular paychecks and keep 100% of the money; they won't pay a PENNY in taxes to any municipal, county, state or federal government (the show will, naturally cover these on behalf of the contestants). Cameras will follow them around wherever they go, to capture their newly independent lifestyles, freed from the chains of corrupt, runaway government taxation.
The catch is, they also don't get ANY of the services those governments provide. No garbage pick up, no street cleaning, no 911, no electricity, no water, no gas, no license renewals, no Social Security, Medicare or Medicaid benefits (aside from an amount based on what they actually put into those programs) - in short, nothing they aren't willing to pay for themselves out of their own earnings for the duration of their participation in the program.
The winner will be the one who can last the longest, and they'll get an amount equal to the total taxes that would have been paid by all the contestants for the cumulative time they participated - I figure that'll work out to maybe five or six thou' max depending on the income ranges of the various contestants.
I'm thinking summer replacement series, because I can't imagine it going more than maybe 10 - 12 weeks at the most.
17
You know, I called the White House just now to inform the President that I, a constituent, shaved my balls. I was told that the President was not available to take my call, but that my message would be passed along to him.
Yeah right.
YOUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK!!!
Yeah right.
YOUR TAX DOLLARS AT WORK!!!
18
The historical comparison breaks down so fastly in so many ways it is self evident that these "teabaggers" have little or no understanding of American History. What's more they have crappy taste in tea.
19
To be fair, the outrage over McDermott's office was that nobody answered AND that there was no voice mail.
20
The number of government-issue walkers, canes and Jazzy Scooters was staggering.
I'm guessing that now that they've got their share, they're going to shut the barn door.
I'm guessing that now that they've got their share, they're going to shut the barn door.
22
Morans. check out this quote from the Syracuse, NY paper:
"She said she retired on disability from M&T Bank three years ago after undergoing knee replacement and back surgeries. She lives on her Social Security and disability benefits. Last year, she petitioned the bankruptcy court for protection from creditors.
She said she did not have to pay federal income taxes last year because her income was too low.
"I don't want to see this country turn into a welfare, nanny state, where we stand in line for groceries, and we're in welfare lines, and in socialized medicine lines," Wilder said."
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2…
In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny, "What a maroon. What an eskimo pie head."
"She said she retired on disability from M&T Bank three years ago after undergoing knee replacement and back surgeries. She lives on her Social Security and disability benefits. Last year, she petitioned the bankruptcy court for protection from creditors.
She said she did not have to pay federal income taxes last year because her income was too low.
"I don't want to see this country turn into a welfare, nanny state, where we stand in line for groceries, and we're in welfare lines, and in socialized medicine lines," Wilder said."
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2…
In the immortal words of Bugs Bunny, "What a maroon. What an eskimo pie head."
23
These people left shortly after they arrived.
Not true, they were standing in the back for awhile and then finally moved up to the other side of the crowd to get some new eyeballs.
Not true, they were standing in the back for awhile and then finally moved up to the other side of the crowd to get some new eyeballs.
24
@19 -- they didn't try contacting a republican congressman... would a teabagger rep have answered the phone or had voicemail at that same time of day? things that make you go hmmmmm...
25
I walked past there... they were mainly complaining about taxation without representation. I can therefore only assume they were fellow Green Card holders. We must file taxes and must not try to vote in elections, under the threat of deportation. Given that they were all white, perhaps they were Brits. Hence the tea. It all makes sense now!
28
@16: Comte: You need to also mandate that they can get their food from any source, no matter if it's deemed "fit for human consumption" by the real-world gubamint. In fact, some of the sources should claim they have a 5-star rating but actually just be pure lead.
PS: Gubamint is my new favorite word.
PS: Gubamint is my new favorite word.
31
Can we indict Eyman for something? Or bring a class-action suit against him? What he was doing was bad enough in good times, and now we're seeing just how disastrous it was.
36
I read somewhere that when the right wing claims he is socialist it is just another word for n!gger. Pardon my language.
37
BTW, The Vancouver Sun has a very informative article on the protests. They note that, far from being a "grass roots" movement, as has been claimed, the protests have been sponsored and funded in large part by Dick Armey's Freedomworks think-tank, and of course they also note the sponsorship in-all-but-name-only of FOX News, which has been shilling the protests for the past several weeks with massive on-air promos.
The article also observes the violent sentiment of the crowds, noting some protesters carried signs suggesting Democrats should be hung from gallows, and comparing President Obama to Hitler and taxpayers to Jewish victims of the Holocaust. They also note the crowds were, for the most part, much smaller than anticipated, even quoting FOX News Commentator Neil Cavuto on a "hot mic" estimating the crowd numbers in D.C. "at about 5,000", then later telling viewers, "they were expecting 5,000 here, it's got to be easily double, if not triple that", in short, caught lying through his teeth.
Definitely worth a read.
The article also observes the violent sentiment of the crowds, noting some protesters carried signs suggesting Democrats should be hung from gallows, and comparing President Obama to Hitler and taxpayers to Jewish victims of the Holocaust. They also note the crowds were, for the most part, much smaller than anticipated, even quoting FOX News Commentator Neil Cavuto on a "hot mic" estimating the crowd numbers in D.C. "at about 5,000", then later telling viewers, "they were expecting 5,000 here, it's got to be easily double, if not triple that", in short, caught lying through his teeth.
Definitely worth a read.
38
Is it just me, or did this protest seem off? Kind of like a community theater version of a protest. Play-acting-ish?
Should the left be flattered by the imitation? Or do we seem this disingenuous to them?
Should the left be flattered by the imitation? Or do we seem this disingenuous to them?
41
Let 'em protest. It's not like they're going to actually get anything done. Haven't we learned that from the puppet crowd?
43
mr. holding, you embarrass me in front of my mum. tea (lipton or red rose), plus about a teaspoon of sugar plus about two tablespoons of milk is my fuckin ancestor-ass hot cocoa, you hot tubbin get-sent-back-to england-by-the-puritans, water color diary paintin shit for fuck, you kindergarten mind game retard hippie.
44
@22: I'm from there and moments like this shame me. Syracuse is surrounded by farmland and has a very strong sense of self-reliance. It's completely delusional as most of the farmers receive government subsidies and the upstate governments are underwritten by NYC even though they want it to secede.
So, it's not shocking just disappointing.
I hope my father didn't attend.
So, it's not shocking just disappointing.
I hope my father didn't attend.
45
Hee hee, this Jennifer Rast is crazy as a shithouse rat: http://rightwingerz.com/
Who's the "respected Bible prophecy scholar" she ghost writes for?
Isn't Eyman going broke these days? Thought I read that the direct-mail biz has gone into the shitter over the last few years...
Man, those two sign holders in the last pic are hilarious. HA HA HA
Who's the "respected Bible prophecy scholar" she ghost writes for?
Isn't Eyman going broke these days? Thought I read that the direct-mail biz has gone into the shitter over the last few years...
Man, those two sign holders in the last pic are hilarious. HA HA HA
46
If socialism is government control of production, and in a Democracy, the citizens are a part of the Government, then isn't opposing socialism in a democracy like saying you don't want input into your country's use of tax dollars?
47
Not to get all lefty and hippy and shit...
But if this is the show of force by the right-voting Americans around here...
And these above comments are the thoughts of the left-voting Americans around here...
I'm alright with this corner of America. Seriously.
When the revolution comes, I'll fight alongside you folks.
But if this is the show of force by the right-voting Americans around here...
And these above comments are the thoughts of the left-voting Americans around here...
I'm alright with this corner of America. Seriously.
When the revolution comes, I'll fight alongside you folks.
49
It's too easy to label these folks "Drama Queens" (and real DQs would be insulted by their lack of professional presentation)
52
@25, good point about the green card holders. Technically, the only people entitled to "tea-bag" are folks like my lovely Canadian husband. He supports my lazy American ass, pays my medical bills, and contributes a ridiculous amount of tax dollars to the gov't...and yet HE doesn't get to vote on how those dollars are spent, or elect people he trusts to spend them.
The teabaggers aren't disenfranchised. They're just fuckers who lost (the election, their minds) and can't fucking deal with it.
Considering the only thing teabaggers hate more than (allegedly Obama related) taxes are filthy immigrants, I can't begin to imagine how conflicted they must feel about my white immigrant husband stealing "our" jobs so he can support this "chocolate-face" American.
The teabaggers aren't disenfranchised. They're just fuckers who lost (the election, their minds) and can't fucking deal with it.
Considering the only thing teabaggers hate more than (allegedly Obama related) taxes are filthy immigrants, I can't begin to imagine how conflicted they must feel about my white immigrant husband stealing "our" jobs so he can support this "chocolate-face" American.
53
"It was a tumultuous time for our nation: the clear beverage craze gave us all a reason to live..."
-- Homer Simpson
-- Homer Simpson
54
Thanks for the kind words, Slogsters. We were there for at least 1/2 hour, from 5:30 to 6, but did have other plans for the evening. People were generally very friendly at the event - even the genuine teabaggers couldn't suppress a smile at our signs. One guy did get right in my face and threaten to put his cigarette out on my forehead, but that was the exception.
We did stay in plain view of the police instead of trying to penetrate the crowd, but overall, I came away feeling surprisingly reassured that even the Glenn Beck cult seems to have some sense of humor, at least the Seattle branch.
We did stay in plain view of the police instead of trying to penetrate the crowd, but overall, I came away feeling surprisingly reassured that even the Glenn Beck cult seems to have some sense of humor, at least the Seattle branch.
55
Lady, if you were owned by the Chinese, you would've worked off that fat ass by now. Or fed a village for a month.
56
This was hilarious!!! I want the lunatic right to protest every month!
Also, is there a way to get Tim Eyman to leave Washington State?
Also, is there a way to get Tim Eyman to leave Washington State?
57
@16 - I want Tim Eyman to live in that reality-show house! No government-related services at all.
58
White people for less taxes! But you better not make us actually pay for our roads. Or anything else we use. How about we just tax abortions and organic produce egregiously?
59
As a tax-paying canuck living in uhmuhricah, I actually would have a beef against taxation without representation, but seriously, fuck these (old, white) people.
Sure, you can stop paying taxes to the scary black man and his socialist, Muslim, baby-killing, gay friends...but if your house catches on fire, don't expect the fire fighters to show up. Also, you're not allowed to use the roads or public transportation. I hope you like composting because we're not picking up your trash, either. If you can walk to the store and fancy a good game of Russian roulette (see? commie!), the FDA is also no longer going to be inspecting the food and drugs available to you. If you get sick, well, just start praying now and get a head start. Basically, if you want to do anything at all without living in your own filth or dying a terrible death, you're on your own. Good luck!
Sure, you can stop paying taxes to the scary black man and his socialist, Muslim, baby-killing, gay friends...but if your house catches on fire, don't expect the fire fighters to show up. Also, you're not allowed to use the roads or public transportation. I hope you like composting because we're not picking up your trash, either. If you can walk to the store and fancy a good game of Russian roulette (see? commie!), the FDA is also no longer going to be inspecting the food and drugs available to you. If you get sick, well, just start praying now and get a head start. Basically, if you want to do anything at all without living in your own filth or dying a terrible death, you're on your own. Good luck!
60
Barack Odumbus is scared shitless about this. His new Nixonian style (with Hillary as Kissenger) reflects a retrenchment from populism to hiding under the sofa.
61
A funny thing staunch leftist mocking a protest. Why not discover the anatomy of leftist protest Not In Our Name, a front for self indulged Bob Avakian and the Revolutinary Communistic Party who hate America. Protesting taxation is the hallmark of protest in America and its foundation. In vain idealism maybe the left and the right could agree enought with the lining of pockets of bankers. But the left is an accomplice to the shaming of Detroit and the lining of pockets of Wallstreet. And this is coming from an Iraq Vet who knows better.
62
Am I the only one that's worried that the price of tea will go up now? (I'm addicted to it and hate coffee.)
Also I was at the store today and went down the aisle with tea, and was looking to see if they had any new iced tea bags yet. Then I had to leave that aisle because I was paranoid someone would think I was one of those teabagger idiots! Damn idiots were altering my shopping habits with their stupidity!
Also I was at the store today and went down the aisle with tea, and was looking to see if they had any new iced tea bags yet. Then I had to leave that aisle because I was paranoid someone would think I was one of those teabagger idiots! Damn idiots were altering my shopping habits with their stupidity!
63
Oh, btw, Jennifer Rast: do you believe that Obama managed to sell America to the Chinese in less than 100 days? Or has this perhaps been going on for much longer, like, say, at least the last 8 years?
64
"Meet Jennifer Rast. [Also sporting the village/idiot sign] She's a ghost writer from Tacoma and believes Barack Obama is not an American citizen. "He grew up in Kenya," says Rast, who opposes funding for Medicaid. "Government wasn't put here to take care of us," she says."
Stupid bitch.
What does growing up in Kenya have to do with this? Not to mention he spent only a small portion of his early years there. lt's a beautiful country, beautiful people. lt really is time to re-chlorinate the gene pool.
Stupid bitch.
What does growing up in Kenya have to do with this? Not to mention he spent only a small portion of his early years there. lt's a beautiful country, beautiful people. lt really is time to re-chlorinate the gene pool.
65
@43, how can you put Red Rose and Lipton in the same sentence? (Shudder). Lipton is crap. You could get the same product by sweeping the floor in a tea shop.
@56, probably the best solution is to send Eyman to California. Seems to me like that would be a match made in heaven.
There are plenty of "less developed" countries around the world where few people bother to pay their taxes and the government seldom bothers to provide services. I wonder about the lack of anti-tax protesters emigrating to those countries. You'd think they'd be lining up for the chance.
@56, probably the best solution is to send Eyman to California. Seems to me like that would be a match made in heaven.
There are plenty of "less developed" countries around the world where few people bother to pay their taxes and the government seldom bothers to provide services. I wonder about the lack of anti-tax protesters emigrating to those countries. You'd think they'd be lining up for the chance.
67
Took a picture of teabagger in Baltimore waving a confederate flag. Now I just have to figure out how to get the pictures from my phone to my facebook.
68
Here is how socialism works in America:
The bottom 50% by income pay 3% (yes, three) of federal income taxes.
The top 1% pays 40%.
The top 5% pay 60%.
Are the bottom half less blessed to be Americans?
Why do they pay virtually no Federal taxes?
The bottom 50% by income pay 3% (yes, three) of federal income taxes.
The top 1% pays 40%.
The top 5% pay 60%.
Are the bottom half less blessed to be Americans?
Why do they pay virtually no Federal taxes?
69
@68: By "top 1%" and "top 5%" I assume you're referring to population, not wealth. The fact is that the "top 1%" of U.S. POPULATION own 50% of U.S. WEALTH. Perhaps they should be paying 50% of the taxes...
71
I still haven't seen a non-white face in any of these pictures, or in the TV coverage of other events elsewhere. I'm just sayin'....
Miles Davis once said: "If you look out into your audience, and all you see are dudes, you're playing the wrong music."
Miles Davis once said: "If you look out into your audience, and all you see are dudes, you're playing the wrong music."
72
@DOUG: hahaha that is awesome. I am going to have to use that line on my dad.
@Comte: Genius. Seriously, write up a proposal and send it to MSNBC (I think they'd want it more than FOX. Or maybe CMT?)
@Comte: Genius. Seriously, write up a proposal and send it to MSNBC (I think they'd want it more than FOX. Or maybe CMT?)
73
@64
Actually Obama never even lived in Kenya except as a tourist. He has visited his father's family for a few weeks a few times and he first did that only after he graduated from Columbia Univ.
Actually Obama never even lived in Kenya except as a tourist. He has visited his father's family for a few weeks a few times and he first did that only after he graduated from Columbia Univ.
74
@68
The rich didn't get rich on their own. No rich person ever has. Many of the rich inherited their wealth. The rich should pay way more.
The rich didn't get rich on their own. No rich person ever has. Many of the rich inherited their wealth. The rich should pay way more.
75
Using tax dollars to boost AMERICAN economy, AMERICAN technological advancements, AMERICAN health care, and AMERICAN education = socialism?
Using tax dollars to enforce democracy in the islamic middle east, make America a gated community and line the pockets of of the top 5% = patriotism?
IMHO: If you own a vehicle, a house, can buy groceries bi-weekly, get married, have children, have access to information via the internet or television, buy new clothes once a year, can go to work without getting shot at or blown up, have a little extra money to go to the movies or out to dinner once in a while, you really shouldn't be bitching about ANYTHING and just learn how to enjoy your life and the people in it.
The percentage of spoiled bitches in United States is a number we should be working towards lowering.
also...who else got about $25-$70 LESS taxes taken out of their paychecks recently. I can't be the only one.
Using tax dollars to enforce democracy in the islamic middle east, make America a gated community and line the pockets of of the top 5% = patriotism?
IMHO: If you own a vehicle, a house, can buy groceries bi-weekly, get married, have children, have access to information via the internet or television, buy new clothes once a year, can go to work without getting shot at or blown up, have a little extra money to go to the movies or out to dinner once in a while, you really shouldn't be bitching about ANYTHING and just learn how to enjoy your life and the people in it.
The percentage of spoiled bitches in United States is a number we should be working towards lowering.
also...who else got about $25-$70 LESS taxes taken out of their paychecks recently. I can't be the only one.
77
Does it ever strike you self-described liberal progressives that you champion a fundamentally depressing ideology? That your best solution for a decent society revolves around forced redistribution of wealth which apparently stems from your own unwillingness to believe humans are capable of living in voluntary societies? Is forced charity, forced equality, and centralized planning really the best we can come up with? So very depressing.
79
I can't believe it took until 76 for the racists to show up. Funny how these self-absorbed white folks never think about how Asians actually average higher educational attainment and income than they do. And it's Seattle, which has lots of Asian residents. Wonder why they don't have the entitled attitude that if they lose an election, they still should have their way about everything?
Bryan, of course people are capable of living in voluntary societies. Now go look up the concept of "free rider" and "tragedy of the commons" and explain how self-interested human beings can avoid those.
Bryan, of course people are capable of living in voluntary societies. Now go look up the concept of "free rider" and "tragedy of the commons" and explain how self-interested human beings can avoid those.
80
@ 68 - Love how you conveniently leave out payroll taxes, which the rich don't pay (at least after a certain income).
81
@77
"forced redistribution of wealth" ? Once you reach adulthood you will need to choose the society that you want to live in. Here in America we get together and pay for the things we value as a society via a representative democracy. Not interested in taking part? You are free to leave.
"forced redistribution of wealth" ? Once you reach adulthood you will need to choose the society that you want to live in. Here in America we get together and pay for the things we value as a society via a representative democracy. Not interested in taking part? You are free to leave.
82
@80, the payroll tax should be eliminated, and the difference made up in income tax. It's the stupidest tax in the world -- talk about your job-killers.
83
Jennifer Rast's camel toe is the stuff of nightmares.
On the other hand, Gene Mickelson looks pretty hot. Is she as GMILFy as her photo suggests?
And don't be hatin' on Big Giant Heads. As Sherlock Holmes explained how he deduced a hatowner was an intellectual,"It is a question of cubic capacity," said he; "a man with so large a brain must have something in it."
On the other hand, Gene Mickelson looks pretty hot. Is she as GMILFy as her photo suggests?
And don't be hatin' on Big Giant Heads. As Sherlock Holmes explained how he deduced a hatowner was an intellectual,"It is a question of cubic capacity," said he; "a man with so large a brain must have something in it."
84
@79 - Not seeing your point with those two concepts. Free riders are more of a problem in entitlement societies, are they not? Private property solves your "tragedy of the commons" issue.
86
@81 - I'm MORE than willing to be given the freedom to pay for the things I value in the community I choose to live. I'm LESS willing to pay for the things I value in my community when my money is being forcibly taken and I'm just told to shut up and take it like a 'good American'.
87
@77
I think "forced" is a strong word to use when you are defining "redistribution of wealth" as a couple percentage points in your tax dollars to help the communities you are a PART OF. The dream of not wanting to contribute to a UNION of that your are a part of is inherently isolationistic and is repeatedly the battle cry of secessionists.
The ideal of a "decent society" that the self-described conservatives champion tends to be one of isolation, oppressive moral law, and armchair fears of strangers which hides behind the mask of "personal liberties"
What is the benefit and endgame of everyone living in "voluntary societies"? Why have states at all? Why not make every state it's own country? Force people to move out of these new volunteer countries that don't fit with the local laws? Why have a United States at all?
Voluntary societies in my opinion do not attack social problems at the root and have a tendency to just gate off the problem and build an army protect the lucky.
I believe that isolation, entitlement berating entitlement, ignoring social ills, and living in fear of the world are a much more depressing ideologies.
I think "forced" is a strong word to use when you are defining "redistribution of wealth" as a couple percentage points in your tax dollars to help the communities you are a PART OF. The dream of not wanting to contribute to a UNION of that your are a part of is inherently isolationistic and is repeatedly the battle cry of secessionists.
The ideal of a "decent society" that the self-described conservatives champion tends to be one of isolation, oppressive moral law, and armchair fears of strangers which hides behind the mask of "personal liberties"
What is the benefit and endgame of everyone living in "voluntary societies"? Why have states at all? Why not make every state it's own country? Force people to move out of these new volunteer countries that don't fit with the local laws? Why have a United States at all?
Voluntary societies in my opinion do not attack social problems at the root and have a tendency to just gate off the problem and build an army protect the lucky.
I believe that isolation, entitlement berating entitlement, ignoring social ills, and living in fear of the world are a much more depressing ideologies.
88
That was a great protest. A whole bunch of people from the Eastside and the more bucolic parts of the state, come into Seattle protest taxes and Socialism, then drive back to their communities that either directly tap in Seattle city services, or take advantage of our tax revenue. Freeloaders.
89
@87
Those are great questions. Those are the types of questions many of the teabaggers wish to debate. At least those of us who viewed the protests as a check on the Federal Government's endless power grabbing and economic manipulations (yes, of course Bush was just as guilty on these accounts and the partisan morons in the media and on this board need to acknowledge this).
What is the best balance of freedom and community? The problem with your answer to this question is that everyone must adhere to it whether they want to or not (force). My answer allows each individual to make that decision for themselves.
The UNION comes from the idea that force and fraud will not be tolerated. What do you care if a black-supremacist compound results from freedom? Why does your perception of a social problem have to be my perception of a social problem?
Those are great questions. Those are the types of questions many of the teabaggers wish to debate. At least those of us who viewed the protests as a check on the Federal Government's endless power grabbing and economic manipulations (yes, of course Bush was just as guilty on these accounts and the partisan morons in the media and on this board need to acknowledge this).
What is the best balance of freedom and community? The problem with your answer to this question is that everyone must adhere to it whether they want to or not (force). My answer allows each individual to make that decision for themselves.
The UNION comes from the idea that force and fraud will not be tolerated. What do you care if a black-supremacist compound results from freedom? Why does your perception of a social problem have to be my perception of a social problem?
90
@ 86 and Tea-baggers:
I have found the perfect country for you. There are no taxes, limited goverment involvement in business, in fact the companies there are really just influenced by the "invisible hand" you are all so fond of. It also seems to have an emerging marking in boating and accessories. You can make a KILLING! So head on over to Somolia, where you don't have to be dropped down to the lowest common denominator, you can decide where and how to spend your money best, and BEST OF ALL!, there is no socialism in SIGHT. So please, tea-baggers, we give Somolia to you as a gift. You're welcome.
I have found the perfect country for you. There are no taxes, limited goverment involvement in business, in fact the companies there are really just influenced by the "invisible hand" you are all so fond of. It also seems to have an emerging marking in boating and accessories. You can make a KILLING! So head on over to Somolia, where you don't have to be dropped down to the lowest common denominator, you can decide where and how to spend your money best, and BEST OF ALL!, there is no socialism in SIGHT. So please, tea-baggers, we give Somolia to you as a gift. You're welcome.
92
@89 before michael strangeaways calls you a TROLL, I am happy that you (admittedly on the other side) are articulate in your writings. this is how things get constructively debated. thx.
95
Do they realize that Lipton is owned by Unilever, a European company? So all the tea they are buying they are essentially sending more money out of the country?
96
@94
You wouldn't want to be isolated in Jowhar. Wouldn't you want to travel to Wanla Weyn? Do you trust the warlords of Shabeellaha Dhexe and Shabeellaha Hoose to get along without any federal control? Fine, just pay your local warlord tax and stay put.
You wouldn't want to be isolated in Jowhar. Wouldn't you want to travel to Wanla Weyn? Do you trust the warlords of Shabeellaha Dhexe and Shabeellaha Hoose to get along without any federal control? Fine, just pay your local warlord tax and stay put.
97
@87
I think the main concern amongst my fellow "progressives" would have to be why all the revolution now? Where was this tenacity and anger for the misrepresenting of your tax dollars when came to the Bush administrations policy on helping banks and the larger lobbying conglomerates with personal interests? Virtually non existent. Convenient to call foul in hindsight after 2 full terms. Ultimately, I believe Americans have no one to really blame except for ourselves. To think that we don't have a say in our communities and that these people come into power with no involvement of their peers is naive or selective arguing.
It definitely appears to be a disagreement on how "problems" are solved but I don't think anyone is happy about a massive government bailout (besides those exploiting the loopholes). Maybe fixing the problem needs to start with our culture and how americans are sold the idea that any of us can afford anything at any time. That "credit is just a part of life" and "everyone has debt, it's normal". But to hold the federal government as some sort of ambiguous pariah that you have no involvement in is delusional.
The discussion of states working independently is just as a slippery slope as any debate but I can't see how breaking down the nation into states.. then eventually into counties... then eventually into cities...then eventually into property and ignoring what's left in the gaps can be helpful to society. Gaps do not just disappear. They form militias, guerilla armies, and erect guillotines.
"Black-supremacist compounds" I do not really consider a big enough social threat to worry about how many government handouts they are getting, if any at all. But If you are asking if I believe in regulation of government spending, then YES, I am all for screening any organizations requesting financial government aid. White or Black. Again, that is a part of being informed as a taxpayer and showing up on voting day and going to town meetings and being a part of the change you want to see. Instead, a lot of these "teabaggers" are not disgruntled town meeting participators but really just band waggoning onto talk-radio and "news" pundit tirades.
More...
I think the main concern amongst my fellow "progressives" would have to be why all the revolution now? Where was this tenacity and anger for the misrepresenting of your tax dollars when came to the Bush administrations policy on helping banks and the larger lobbying conglomerates with personal interests? Virtually non existent. Convenient to call foul in hindsight after 2 full terms. Ultimately, I believe Americans have no one to really blame except for ourselves. To think that we don't have a say in our communities and that these people come into power with no involvement of their peers is naive or selective arguing.
It definitely appears to be a disagreement on how "problems" are solved but I don't think anyone is happy about a massive government bailout (besides those exploiting the loopholes). Maybe fixing the problem needs to start with our culture and how americans are sold the idea that any of us can afford anything at any time. That "credit is just a part of life" and "everyone has debt, it's normal". But to hold the federal government as some sort of ambiguous pariah that you have no involvement in is delusional.
The discussion of states working independently is just as a slippery slope as any debate but I can't see how breaking down the nation into states.. then eventually into counties... then eventually into cities...then eventually into property and ignoring what's left in the gaps can be helpful to society. Gaps do not just disappear. They form militias, guerilla armies, and erect guillotines.
"Black-supremacist compounds" I do not really consider a big enough social threat to worry about how many government handouts they are getting, if any at all. But If you are asking if I believe in regulation of government spending, then YES, I am all for screening any organizations requesting financial government aid. White or Black. Again, that is a part of being informed as a taxpayer and showing up on voting day and going to town meetings and being a part of the change you want to see. Instead, a lot of these "teabaggers" are not disgruntled town meeting participators but really just band waggoning onto talk-radio and "news" pundit tirades.
98
These TeaBaggers are incredibly ignorant of a very obvious human trait: we can't be trusted! We have been assaulting our neighbors ever since we noticed they had something we wanted (wife, animals, land, etc.). We have been stealing from each other ever since we had anything worth stealing (wife, animals, land, etc.). We have been killing each other ever since we figured out how to do it (there's a reason Cain & Abel is one of the first stories in the bible).
Until recently*, governments have been formed and laws created in response to the problems we create for ourselves. Time after time, we have seen cases where the government has to step in because people are warring against each other in some fashion. Why do you think the cultural memory of the American West is one of gunslinging murderers, horse thieves and rapists? Because there were no laws and authority to prevent it! If left to our own devices, we have proven to sink to the lowest levels of depravity and self-destruction. It's why the SEC & FBI were formed, to mention just two glaring examples.
*Now, many laws are simply paid for by corporations that will benefit from them, in response to an imagined or inflated "problem". And we've seen a few artificially installed governments (Iraq & Afghanistan).
Until recently*, governments have been formed and laws created in response to the problems we create for ourselves. Time after time, we have seen cases where the government has to step in because people are warring against each other in some fashion. Why do you think the cultural memory of the American West is one of gunslinging murderers, horse thieves and rapists? Because there were no laws and authority to prevent it! If left to our own devices, we have proven to sink to the lowest levels of depravity and self-destruction. It's why the SEC & FBI were formed, to mention just two glaring examples.
*Now, many laws are simply paid for by corporations that will benefit from them, in response to an imagined or inflated "problem". And we've seen a few artificially installed governments (Iraq & Afghanistan).
99
From Kos this morning;
"So here's the basic lesson of the teabagging hissy fit. The new Republican "theory" of democracy:
GOP wins: "Mandate! Elections have consequences!"
GOP loses: "Tyranny! Fascism! Revolution! Secession!
Think about that. And think about how they used to tell you with a straight face that when Republicans won, "the adults were back in charge."
Think about that when the Sinn Fein arm (with apologies, I guess, to the actual Sinn Fein) of this Idiot Republican Army arrives back in Washington to plead oh-so-earnestly that they just want "bipartisan compromise."
Think about that when they tell you they demand a say in how we fix health care, rebuild our economy and protect working peoples' rights to build better lives for themselves and their families. While you were working for these changes back home, they were feeding the rump end of their "base" in the hopes that they'd spike any and every deal.
Think about how wise it is to seek "compromise" with vipers who will, the moment they don't get their way, turn and hiss, "Revolution! Secession!"
"So here's the basic lesson of the teabagging hissy fit. The new Republican "theory" of democracy:
GOP wins: "Mandate! Elections have consequences!"
GOP loses: "Tyranny! Fascism! Revolution! Secession!
Think about that. And think about how they used to tell you with a straight face that when Republicans won, "the adults were back in charge."
Think about that when the Sinn Fein arm (with apologies, I guess, to the actual Sinn Fein) of this Idiot Republican Army arrives back in Washington to plead oh-so-earnestly that they just want "bipartisan compromise."
Think about that when they tell you they demand a say in how we fix health care, rebuild our economy and protect working peoples' rights to build better lives for themselves and their families. While you were working for these changes back home, they were feeding the rump end of their "base" in the hopes that they'd spike any and every deal.
Think about how wise it is to seek "compromise" with vipers who will, the moment they don't get their way, turn and hiss, "Revolution! Secession!"
100
The only protest where people can talk sanely about taxation without representation is the one in DC.
Since those guys don't get an elected member of Congress who is legally entitled to vote for them.
Otherwise, for the rest of them, just a bunch of whiners.
@5 for the blond win.
Since those guys don't get an elected member of Congress who is legally entitled to vote for them.
Otherwise, for the rest of them, just a bunch of whiners.
@5 for the blond win.
101
oh, and @95, I think I own some Unilever shares, so some of the money comes back to the US in the form of dividends. And if you have a Total Stock Market or European Stock exposure in your 401(k) or 403(b), to you as well.
102
The problem with your thinking @86, is that, if you give EVERYONE that same "freedom" to contribute ONLY to those things that benefit their own self-interest, a lot of important, necessary things won't get funded at all - ever.
Just for one example: you may only want to pay for the roads that lead directly to where you live, work, shop, and play. But, even if you can get enough of your neighbors to also agree to that general expenditure, THEY are going to have significant differences of opinion, because you don't all work in the same location, shop at the same stores, or engage in the same recreational activities.
This notion that "the needs of the individual trumps all other considerations" is an anachronistic carry-over from an 18th & early 19th Century pioneer mentality, when there was enough unclaimed, wide-open space (mostly stolen from natives, but that's a whole other bucket of worms) that anyone with some gumption and a little bit of scratch could lay claim to their own parcel of land and do with it what they please.
I hate to be the one to break the news to you but, guess what? This is the freaking 21st Century. Americans don't have the luxury any more of being able to hitch a team of oxen to a Conestoga wagon and head off to some pristine, undeveloped corner of the continent to try their luck at self-sufficiency, unmolested by other human beings and their insidious social contracts.
Today, over two thirds of the U.S. population, more than 200 million people, live in the top 100 metropolitan areas. The rest live in smaller cities, towns, and developed rural areas, all of which require some sort of social interaction with their fellow citizens in order to obtain the goods and services they require to carry out the basic activities of daily life.
I doubt there are more than a few thousand people in the U.S. currently who can legitimately lay claim to being 100% self-sufficient; even the much-lauded Amish can't do EVERYTHING for themselves. For one thing, it's too damned much work. So, we engage in these things called "societies", which enable large groups of individuals to pool resources, share skills, and exchange needed goods and services they can't provide for themselves in order to achieve both maximum efficiency, and at relatively minimal effort on everyone's part.
The federal government is simply another level of this social compact: it provides economies of scale that allow an entire nation to equip a sizable national armed force, build an interstate infrastructure and transportation system (e.g. highways, power distribution, railways, dams, bridges and the like) manage and direct development (or conversely prevent development) over large swathes of territory held in trust for the nation, set and enforce universal standards for health, safety, education, employment and industry for the benefit of all, and ensures the rights of every citizen are recognized and protected from those that would deny these same rights to others, or who would exploit them for their own benefit.
And guess what? All that takes money, a contribution from each citizen to ensure these necessary activities are performed as efficiently, and as fairly as can be for a nation encompassing some 3,537,441 square miles, with a current population of some 306,000,000 people.
Now granted, not everyone contributes the same amount to help achieve these ends, but except for the extremes at both the top and bottom, where there is a tendency for individuals to receive far greater benefit in proportion to what they put in, most of us get a pretty decent return on our investment. Ask any tax-payer and they'll have their own particular pet-peeves; things for which they pay, but for which they morally, or fiscally do not approve. But, the idea that every single solitary individual should have some sort of "veto stamp" over these expenditures is simply ludicrous; just the administrative inefficiency alone of having to parse out every tiny personal preference in terms of what money goes where would bring the federal government to a complete stand-still.
And so, for the sake of efficiency, and because we recognize that only a relative handful of us have the time, knowledge, and inclination to go through the arduous task of deciding these things, we have a Constitutional Representative Democracy in place, so that we can appoint a handful of individuals to represent the greater number of citizens, and empower them to do this on our behalf. Sometimes we don't like the choices they make, but that same Constitutional system allows us to periodically change who will represent us in carrying out that process, and each of us has the freedom to cast a vote based on which person we think will better represent our interests, or even, if we so choose, to place our own selves in the running to BE that person. It's not a perfect system, but, to paraphrase Churchill, "it's better than the rest."
And NOBODY is telling you to STFU and "take it", that's the WHOLE POINT of our system. If you don't like the way things are done, you have the freedom, the right to try to change it via the democratic process. But by that same token, you also have the obligation, the responsibility to accept that, when a majority of your fellow citizens decide to go in a direction with which you do not personally approve, they get to call the shots for awhile. You can still complain, you can still work to change the person who you feel best represents your interests, but you DON'T have the right to simply opt-out whenever things don't go exactly to your liking.
Well, technically you DO have that option, but that also requires completely abrogating the social contract by which all of us have agreed to abide, which basically means moving somewhere conditions are more conducive to your desire to be completely self-sufficient; I'm sure there are still a few unclaimed tracts in the Alaskan interior that would fit the bill nicely, but other than that - ?
In any case, the choice is still yours: agree to the terms of the social contract we call "American citizenship", or move to the boonies, and try to make it completely on your own.
More...
Just for one example: you may only want to pay for the roads that lead directly to where you live, work, shop, and play. But, even if you can get enough of your neighbors to also agree to that general expenditure, THEY are going to have significant differences of opinion, because you don't all work in the same location, shop at the same stores, or engage in the same recreational activities.
This notion that "the needs of the individual trumps all other considerations" is an anachronistic carry-over from an 18th & early 19th Century pioneer mentality, when there was enough unclaimed, wide-open space (mostly stolen from natives, but that's a whole other bucket of worms) that anyone with some gumption and a little bit of scratch could lay claim to their own parcel of land and do with it what they please.
I hate to be the one to break the news to you but, guess what? This is the freaking 21st Century. Americans don't have the luxury any more of being able to hitch a team of oxen to a Conestoga wagon and head off to some pristine, undeveloped corner of the continent to try their luck at self-sufficiency, unmolested by other human beings and their insidious social contracts.
Today, over two thirds of the U.S. population, more than 200 million people, live in the top 100 metropolitan areas. The rest live in smaller cities, towns, and developed rural areas, all of which require some sort of social interaction with their fellow citizens in order to obtain the goods and services they require to carry out the basic activities of daily life.
I doubt there are more than a few thousand people in the U.S. currently who can legitimately lay claim to being 100% self-sufficient; even the much-lauded Amish can't do EVERYTHING for themselves. For one thing, it's too damned much work. So, we engage in these things called "societies", which enable large groups of individuals to pool resources, share skills, and exchange needed goods and services they can't provide for themselves in order to achieve both maximum efficiency, and at relatively minimal effort on everyone's part.
The federal government is simply another level of this social compact: it provides economies of scale that allow an entire nation to equip a sizable national armed force, build an interstate infrastructure and transportation system (e.g. highways, power distribution, railways, dams, bridges and the like) manage and direct development (or conversely prevent development) over large swathes of territory held in trust for the nation, set and enforce universal standards for health, safety, education, employment and industry for the benefit of all, and ensures the rights of every citizen are recognized and protected from those that would deny these same rights to others, or who would exploit them for their own benefit.
And guess what? All that takes money, a contribution from each citizen to ensure these necessary activities are performed as efficiently, and as fairly as can be for a nation encompassing some 3,537,441 square miles, with a current population of some 306,000,000 people.
Now granted, not everyone contributes the same amount to help achieve these ends, but except for the extremes at both the top and bottom, where there is a tendency for individuals to receive far greater benefit in proportion to what they put in, most of us get a pretty decent return on our investment. Ask any tax-payer and they'll have their own particular pet-peeves; things for which they pay, but for which they morally, or fiscally do not approve. But, the idea that every single solitary individual should have some sort of "veto stamp" over these expenditures is simply ludicrous; just the administrative inefficiency alone of having to parse out every tiny personal preference in terms of what money goes where would bring the federal government to a complete stand-still.
And so, for the sake of efficiency, and because we recognize that only a relative handful of us have the time, knowledge, and inclination to go through the arduous task of deciding these things, we have a Constitutional Representative Democracy in place, so that we can appoint a handful of individuals to represent the greater number of citizens, and empower them to do this on our behalf. Sometimes we don't like the choices they make, but that same Constitutional system allows us to periodically change who will represent us in carrying out that process, and each of us has the freedom to cast a vote based on which person we think will better represent our interests, or even, if we so choose, to place our own selves in the running to BE that person. It's not a perfect system, but, to paraphrase Churchill, "it's better than the rest."
And NOBODY is telling you to STFU and "take it", that's the WHOLE POINT of our system. If you don't like the way things are done, you have the freedom, the right to try to change it via the democratic process. But by that same token, you also have the obligation, the responsibility to accept that, when a majority of your fellow citizens decide to go in a direction with which you do not personally approve, they get to call the shots for awhile. You can still complain, you can still work to change the person who you feel best represents your interests, but you DON'T have the right to simply opt-out whenever things don't go exactly to your liking.
Well, technically you DO have that option, but that also requires completely abrogating the social contract by which all of us have agreed to abide, which basically means moving somewhere conditions are more conducive to your desire to be completely self-sufficient; I'm sure there are still a few unclaimed tracts in the Alaskan interior that would fit the bill nicely, but other than that - ?
In any case, the choice is still yours: agree to the terms of the social contract we call "American citizenship", or move to the boonies, and try to make it completely on your own.
103
Technically, though, if you're a Canadian paying US taxes, you are not a zero-sum game - your SS earnings can be used with your CPP/OAS earnings when you retire, and you can vote in Canadian federal elections (and the last province you resided in) - just check with the local Canadian consulate in Seattle.
104
The governor of Texas is ranting about seceding from the United States.
Speaking to an energetic and angry tea party crowd in Austin Wednesday evening, the Lone Star State governor suggested secession may happen in the future should the federal government not change its fiscal polices.
"There's a lot of different scenarios," Perry said. "We've got a great union. There's absolutely no reason to dissolve it. But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, you know, who knows what might come out of that. But Texas is a very unique place, and we're a pretty independent lot to boot."
I seem to recall from my history books that some states tried that, once upon a time, long, long ago. How did that work out?
I also seem to recall from not too long ago that Republicans were rather free in slinging accusations of treason at Democrats (Ann Coulter wrote a book about it, and Jonah Goldberg tried to imply it), yet here is a governor actively inciting mobs with the idea of secession, which is a rather blatantly anti-patriotic act. Funny how their attitudes change.
Oh, and for comic relief: Chuck Norris offers to run for president of the independent nation of Texas. I agree that they should leave the union, just for the hilarious spectacle. I think the secession of the 'former' Confederate States of America is a jolly idea, as the present day south is is essentially nothing more than an ungrateful welfare sinkhole. Really, they receive far more from the feds than they contribute, then they have the teabags to complain about their 'problem'. The rest of the nation would be better off without their fundamentalist lazy asses.
Speaking to an energetic and angry tea party crowd in Austin Wednesday evening, the Lone Star State governor suggested secession may happen in the future should the federal government not change its fiscal polices.
"There's a lot of different scenarios," Perry said. "We've got a great union. There's absolutely no reason to dissolve it. But if Washington continues to thumb their nose at the American people, you know, who knows what might come out of that. But Texas is a very unique place, and we're a pretty independent lot to boot."
I seem to recall from my history books that some states tried that, once upon a time, long, long ago. How did that work out?
I also seem to recall from not too long ago that Republicans were rather free in slinging accusations of treason at Democrats (Ann Coulter wrote a book about it, and Jonah Goldberg tried to imply it), yet here is a governor actively inciting mobs with the idea of secession, which is a rather blatantly anti-patriotic act. Funny how their attitudes change.
Oh, and for comic relief: Chuck Norris offers to run for president of the independent nation of Texas. I agree that they should leave the union, just for the hilarious spectacle. I think the secession of the 'former' Confederate States of America is a jolly idea, as the present day south is is essentially nothing more than an ungrateful welfare sinkhole. Really, they receive far more from the feds than they contribute, then they have the teabags to complain about their 'problem'. The rest of the nation would be better off without their fundamentalist lazy asses.
105
Were there really 1,000 people there at Westlake Park? I walked by at 6:15PM and although it looked packed on Pike, when I walked on 4th it looked like at least half of Westlake Park was empty.
106
What you're describing @97 has a name, it's called "feudalism", and it worked sort of okay for a while, when small social groups lived in relative isolation from one another.
But, short of a world-wide catastrophe of Apocalyptic proportions, I can't really envision anyone (even self-professed Randian Objectivist "individualists") wanting to go back to a medieval socio-political system predicated on a pre-industrial agrarian subsistence culture, even if that is the logical extension of what you suggest. For one thing, most of the folks turning out for these protests would find themselves in a much WORSE situation than what they experience now. In fact, if things were to magically revert back tomorrow to the sort of social constructs you describe, and all of these people suddenly found themselves stuck in the same little enclave, MOST of them would be dead within a month, if that, because they simply don't have the necessary range of skills to be able to survive at even the most minimal level under those conditions.
But, short of a world-wide catastrophe of Apocalyptic proportions, I can't really envision anyone (even self-professed Randian Objectivist "individualists") wanting to go back to a medieval socio-political system predicated on a pre-industrial agrarian subsistence culture, even if that is the logical extension of what you suggest. For one thing, most of the folks turning out for these protests would find themselves in a much WORSE situation than what they experience now. In fact, if things were to magically revert back tomorrow to the sort of social constructs you describe, and all of these people suddenly found themselves stuck in the same little enclave, MOST of them would be dead within a month, if that, because they simply don't have the necessary range of skills to be able to survive at even the most minimal level under those conditions.
107
@Bryan: So let me get this straight, you want local/state goverment to oversee international and national corporations? So each locality can have their own laws and systems? Do you not see what a nightmare that would for every company to deal with. Companies will just go over to the EU to conduct business then deal with little war-lords or fiefdoms here in America.
Yeesh. you do belong in Africa.
Yeesh. you do belong in Africa.
109
But, the idea that every single solitary individual should have some sort of "veto stamp" over these expenditures is simply ludicrous; just the administrative inefficiency alone of having to parse out every tiny personal preference in terms of what money goes where would bring the federal government to a complete stand-still.
But this is exactly the point of the modern day, Grover Norquist - drown-the-government-in-a-bathtub conservative philosophy. They want to bring governance to a complete and total standstill, and they aren't shy about admitting it. It is part of the real "wealth redistribution" scheme. The right exercises a circular logic; Government is bad, so we should defund it. After they 'restructure' a government function, making it even less effective, they scream some more about the alleged inefficiencies of government and demand that fewer funds be spent. The catch is that the money is still being spent, but now it is going to a select few in so-called 'privatization' schemes, which are infinitely more inefficient than the supposedly 'evil' government programs they replace. The billions of dollars shuffled to Blackwater, Bechtel, et.al. in Iraq are prime examples of this. Support functions formerly conducted efficiently and inexpensively by the US military, such as laundry, cafeterias, equipment transfer, etc. are handed off to 'private contractors', who charge exorbitant fees for to provide the same services in a far less efficient manner, creating massive fraud and endangering the lives of US soldiers in the process. This is the actual goal of the alleged 'free market' crowd. The blatant and outright theft of the nation's wealth by a small handful of corporate vandals.
But this is exactly the point of the modern day, Grover Norquist - drown-the-government-in-a-bathtub conservative philosophy. They want to bring governance to a complete and total standstill, and they aren't shy about admitting it. It is part of the real "wealth redistribution" scheme. The right exercises a circular logic; Government is bad, so we should defund it. After they 'restructure' a government function, making it even less effective, they scream some more about the alleged inefficiencies of government and demand that fewer funds be spent. The catch is that the money is still being spent, but now it is going to a select few in so-called 'privatization' schemes, which are infinitely more inefficient than the supposedly 'evil' government programs they replace. The billions of dollars shuffled to Blackwater, Bechtel, et.al. in Iraq are prime examples of this. Support functions formerly conducted efficiently and inexpensively by the US military, such as laundry, cafeterias, equipment transfer, etc. are handed off to 'private contractors', who charge exorbitant fees for to provide the same services in a far less efficient manner, creating massive fraud and endangering the lives of US soldiers in the process. This is the actual goal of the alleged 'free market' crowd. The blatant and outright theft of the nation's wealth by a small handful of corporate vandals.
110
@106/102
In replay to Bryan:
"but I CAN'T see how breaking down the nation into states.. then eventually into counties... then eventually into cities...then eventually into property and ignoring what's left in the gaps can be helpful to society. Gaps do not just disappear. They form militias, guerilla armies, and erect guillotines."
Just to clarify, I wholeheartedly agree with your post on #102/and 106
In replay to Bryan:
"but I CAN'T see how breaking down the nation into states.. then eventually into counties... then eventually into cities...then eventually into property and ignoring what's left in the gaps can be helpful to society. Gaps do not just disappear. They form militias, guerilla armies, and erect guillotines."
Just to clarify, I wholeheartedly agree with your post on #102/and 106
113
@ Bryan: Good luck avoiding cholera when we defund public health, and keeping clear of lead, melamine and god knows what-all shit corporations put in kids' toys and baby food before we had the FDA. Enjoy breathing that mercury-laced coal smoke. And too bad about that corrupt bank that went belly up, erasing all your savings. And your house that burned down, killing your kids, because of faulty wiring, since we no longer have building inspectors. Oh, and your neighbors' kids, too, since we no longer have zoning.
Yes, if only we lived FREE in a dream world without regulation or taxation.
Yes, if only we lived FREE in a dream world without regulation or taxation.
114
@112. Software is stupid. It thinks et-dot-al must be a domain in Albania (for which "al" is the TLD).
But you're wrong too; the correct phrase is "et alia" (no dot), and is correctly abbreviated "et al.", not "et.al".
But you're wrong too; the correct phrase is "et alia" (no dot), and is correctly abbreviated "et al.", not "et.al".
115
Bryan doesn't believe there IS a public realm. Pointless to try and argue with someone like that.
116
@114 Eureka! I knew there was an explanation.
I must share the Rude Pundit's summation of the yesterdays silliness:
"How goddamned simple-minded this whole tea party thing was. How divorced from reality. What a waste of time, of energy, of paper and ink. All it succeeded in doing was propping up some egos, giving understandably frustrated people a place to misdirect their anger, and allowing there to be an hour of TV that featured Ted Nugent, Penn Jillette, and Janine Turner, like Hell's Tonight Show."
I must share the Rude Pundit's summation of the yesterdays silliness:
"How goddamned simple-minded this whole tea party thing was. How divorced from reality. What a waste of time, of energy, of paper and ink. All it succeeded in doing was propping up some egos, giving understandably frustrated people a place to misdirect their anger, and allowing there to be an hour of TV that featured Ted Nugent, Penn Jillette, and Janine Turner, like Hell's Tonight Show."
117
Georgia Senate threatens to secede - please, let their people go! Please?
http://www.americablog.com/2009/04/georg…
http://www.americablog.com/2009/04/georg…
120
Awesome how Bryan has disappeared.
And I now have a crush on Comte. Would that everyone were so smart and explain-y.
And I now have a crush on Comte. Would that everyone were so smart and explain-y.
121
Well, sometimes I'm accused (and not always incorrectly, I fear) of being a little TOO explain-y...
122
Comte: If you're not teaching economics, you should be. You just condensed a year's worth of classes into a few concise paragraphs. Mad props.
As for everyone else in the comments: Thank you! I've enjoyed reading this debate.
As for everyone else in the comments: Thank you! I've enjoyed reading this debate.
127
COMTE,
You really are in rare form today. Econ, Philosophy, and Poli Sci 101 (and 201, for that matter) concisely and accurately delivered with a succinct vengeance.
All them fancy "nuances" are probably gonna be lost on most of the teabag types, though...
You really are in rare form today. Econ, Philosophy, and Poli Sci 101 (and 201, for that matter) concisely and accurately delivered with a succinct vengeance.
All them fancy "nuances" are probably gonna be lost on most of the teabag types, though...
128
Everybody is entitled to a good day once in a while, it's just a matter of probability.
(Might as well throw statistic in, while I'm still on a roll.)
(Might as well throw statistic in, while I'm still on a roll.)
129
@84 You seriously typed in the idea that private property would cure the tragedy of the commons?
130
Far be it from me to go there, but would it be inciting violence to suggest that Tim Eyman's head looks a whole lot like a ripe, ripe pinata in that shot?
131
For those who'd like to know, Socialism isn't incompatible with, nor does it forbid capitalism.
It strives to provide a framework that promotes a number of state-subsidized social benefits and safety nets for all citizens, without forcing them to pay for such safeties out of their own pockets:
- health care
- unemployment
- retirement
Those are some of the basics. In a World of "Employer vs Employee", a socialist government tends to enact many laws that significantly increase and protect the benefits and rights of the Employee.
Having grown-up in France for a good chunk of my life, i've seen both the good and bad:
It was great that my family didn't have to pay for health care out of pocket. My Mom had Cancer 2 years ago, and beat it without getting broke. My Dad's had significant and rare heart conditions for most of his adult life which he's been able to keep under control without getting the family broke either.
On the other hand, they're both entrepreneurs and have experienced first-hand the overhead and burden placed on small, medium and large companies to subsidize the cost of all those social benefits, and pro-employees lost enabling them to rob their employers blind, work 4 months + 1 day, then live off of unemployment for a few months at 75% of their pay . Because in the end, politicians don't want the majority of their voting-base to be forced to shell out a single penny, or be held accountable for actually trying to work, that doesn't get or keep them into office.
I think there's a balance to be attained, we need to get creative, open-minded, and downright revolutionary about careful eligibility, and be ready to accept that yes, there may be some of us who are not eligible (or eligible for less) for state coverage because we just do too damned well in life.
I think that most of us who can pay for our own healthcare, should.
I think that the few of us who get catastrophic medical conditions should have some sort of government subsidized coverage.
I believe that people who are trying to raise a family on less than 20 grand a year shouldn't have to worry about medical coverage, or some other basic necessities.
The problem is, i doubt the society will get behind that, and much less politicians, because in the end, people are fundamentally retarded.
-chris
More...
It strives to provide a framework that promotes a number of state-subsidized social benefits and safety nets for all citizens, without forcing them to pay for such safeties out of their own pockets:
- health care
- unemployment
- retirement
Those are some of the basics. In a World of "Employer vs Employee", a socialist government tends to enact many laws that significantly increase and protect the benefits and rights of the Employee.
Having grown-up in France for a good chunk of my life, i've seen both the good and bad:
It was great that my family didn't have to pay for health care out of pocket. My Mom had Cancer 2 years ago, and beat it without getting broke. My Dad's had significant and rare heart conditions for most of his adult life which he's been able to keep under control without getting the family broke either.
On the other hand, they're both entrepreneurs and have experienced first-hand the overhead and burden placed on small, medium and large companies to subsidize the cost of all those social benefits, and pro-employees lost enabling them to rob their employers blind, work 4 months + 1 day, then live off of unemployment for a few months at 75% of their pay . Because in the end, politicians don't want the majority of their voting-base to be forced to shell out a single penny, or be held accountable for actually trying to work, that doesn't get or keep them into office.
I think there's a balance to be attained, we need to get creative, open-minded, and downright revolutionary about careful eligibility, and be ready to accept that yes, there may be some of us who are not eligible (or eligible for less) for state coverage because we just do too damned well in life.
I think that most of us who can pay for our own healthcare, should.
I think that the few of us who get catastrophic medical conditions should have some sort of government subsidized coverage.
I believe that people who are trying to raise a family on less than 20 grand a year shouldn't have to worry about medical coverage, or some other basic necessities.
The problem is, i doubt the society will get behind that, and much less politicians, because in the end, people are fundamentally retarded.
-chris
132
you can laugh all you want now, we only brought tea bags this time, just wait till the 2nd ammendment wheels into action, if you dont like this country the way it was founded then get the hell out girls.
133
So middle aged white dudes are the only ones who can protest...because they're the only ones who pay taxes? Last time i checked a big chunk of my paycheck went to taxes. God i wish i would have know about this so i could have gone and protested against the protesters! If it happens again will you all come with me to protest them, the teabaggers?
134
Just had to say, your protest didn't change anything. this is the 1st I've heard of on this blog, by accident, i was really looking up to see if there were any protest to legalize marijuana going soon.
There is May 2nd everyone!
There is May 2nd everyone!
135
What a terrifying thought, if one day these people come to power in the US and get to dictate morality as they see it, pushing their distorted brand of religion, their views imposed on the rest of us, their ignorance brandished throughout the fabric of American society and their smug and arrogant demeanor without any sense of rational thought whatsoever deciding domestic and foreign policy. I know it might seem like a joke to you now, but just remember who our last president was and how he came to power, how he and his administration got us where we are how republicans are now blocking every legitimate effort to get us out of this mess...and imagine that it could happen all over again if we let our guard down.
Most Commented on Slog
-
Straight Up by Dan Savage
-
Stephen Fry v. the Catholic Church by Dan Savage
-
Neologism Needed by Dan Savage
-
Palin's Cheat Sheet by Dan Savage
-
SL Letter of the Day: The Toilet Brush Off by Dan Savage
-
Every Child Deserves a Mother and a Father by Dan Savage
-
Tea Party Crowd Believes That Only Good Spellers Should Vote by Dan Savage
-
How's That Hopey, Changey Stuff Working Out For Childhood Obesity? by Dan Savage
-
This Shit Will Never Get Old by Eli Sanders
-
Every Child Deserves a Mother and a Father by Dan Savage
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (135) RSS