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News & ArtsTuesday, April 14, 2009
Life Mommy Issues
Posted by David Schmader on Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 3:04 PM
Submitted to I, Anonymous, with the title "A Letter from Your Oldest Child":
Dear Mom,I call you mom not because you're my mother, considering I've fathered three great children from you, but because that's all you are now. You're a mom. Gone, gone are the days where we have sex with any frequency, because I look at porn. Nevermind that I have looked at porn since you've known me, and you even at one point said "I love porn" while we were in courtship. Now you hate porn, because "you can tell" when I've been looking at it when we have sex because I say or do things that are "influenced by porn". Nevermind that you tell me to cum on your face, talk about pulling my dick out of you so you can suck all the nasty pussy juice off of it, or order me to choke you with my cock, I said "you're my bitch" once, so clearly I'm a porn fiend.
You told me that either I stopped looking at porn or we'd stop having sex, and I chose porn, because I recognized this little ruse for what it is: your willful retirement from the world of adulthood. We don't have adult discussion in any capacity, if we aren't discussing children, upcoming appointments, or the requisite how-was-your-days, you treat each and every invitation to open discussion with a tenuous hostility. Why would we discuss what's happening with the economy, you know nothing about economies, have no interest, don't want to hear other people discuss it, and one of the kids made a funny face today and it needs to be described in scrutinizing detail. Fuck my 401k, you never knew how it worked to start with. Once you're done describing said wacky face hopefully one of the kids will be in pseudo-peril and you can punctuate the conversation with a concerned look and a wobbly hurry.
Your fatness is an essential core of your withdraw into mommyhood. I pay an extra $40 a month so you can go to the gym and leave the kids in their daycare. I tell you that you can leave them with me. But none of this is good for you to exercise more than once every two months. I tell you that I have absolutely no problems with the extra weight, it's sexy in its own way. So you go out and buy a two-thousand dollar home treadmill for you to work out at home and slap it on another credit card for purchases-for-which-i-consulted-no-one-and-don't-have-the-money-for. Of course, you told me you were looking at treadmills, but all the ones you asked me to look at were $800, $900. We've had it for a week and you haven't even used it once. Signs point to another good purchase!
In other "real" news, I'm getting a job as a federal agent soon, and we both feel it coming. A point at which I'm going to end up moving out to be closer to my job, which you refuse to follow me to because you don't want to leave your momma, and you don't want to stop being just a momma. You know once the job gets rolling I'm going to be gone more, have less time for stupid bullshit, and have a lot more exposure to ADULTS who have ADULT wants, ADULT needs, and ADULT expectations, and you melt away from those things not because you can't, but you don't want to. Someone may not like you, and you're going to have to cope with the real world, in a real job setting, in a real relationship, instead of being a school teacher in a retirement town that opts out of every relationship that doesn't have a predetermined power advantage.
The job is why you're feeling "depressed" lately, and I'm getting more and more chipper. Because this indefinite game of passive aggressive, sexless matriarchal bullshit is going to come crashing down. I'm going to have a job that I will follow to the ends of the Earth, and you will have little / no remaining ruses to string me along. If I meet a smart, attractive woman while I'm out-and-about with my job, I will have no compunctions with pursuing a relationship with her to a respectable stopping point, dumping your ass, and continuing where I left off. I'll see my wonderful kids whenever I can, and I'll laugh at your fat, pseudo-depressed ass the whole time. Your long vacation of being a wife and adult is ending, or our marriage is. And I'm not in the least bit upset by either prospect! Thanks for listening.
Love,
Your Husband
1
Funny. I've often thought similar things about my breeder friends/family members who are incapable of talking about anything other than their children. However, since I am an actual adult, I've never expressed these sentiments in any forum, let alone in an overly long screed on the internet.
13
@3
Me too. I kept thinking "this is a total fake" until he started talking about non-sex stuff and I had to start over and realized I was way out in left field.
In any case, it sounds like the sanctity of this marriage is in danger.
Me too. I kept thinking "this is a total fake" until he started talking about non-sex stuff and I had to start over and realized I was way out in left field.
In any case, it sounds like the sanctity of this marriage is in danger.
16
That was nice of him to offer to watch his own kids, though. I wonder why she doesn't appreciate that?
20
Something in this story doesn't quite add up. I just don't quite buy this side of the story on its own.
22
He says "...you will have little / no remaining ruses to string me along." Apparently he hasn't talked to other divorced dads.
Here is what he can expect:
** a division of assets that gives here a greater amount due to her health issues (depression) and lower earning capacity;
** a few years of maintenance to pay for job retraining (maybe even a masters degree to get her restarted in teaching) and living expenses while she isn't working;
** several hundred dollars of monthly child support -- per child!
** and contempt proceedings and judgments every time he misses a visit with the children, returns them late, or tries to act in the controlling manner typical of "federal agents".
That should be enough to string him along--all while he is living in a one-bedroom apartment with less than half his former income while she is enjoying the family home, free time, and better financial resources.
Here is what he can expect:
** a division of assets that gives here a greater amount due to her health issues (depression) and lower earning capacity;
** a few years of maintenance to pay for job retraining (maybe even a masters degree to get her restarted in teaching) and living expenses while she isn't working;
** several hundred dollars of monthly child support -- per child!
** and contempt proceedings and judgments every time he misses a visit with the children, returns them late, or tries to act in the controlling manner typical of "federal agents".
That should be enough to string him along--all while he is living in a one-bedroom apartment with less than half his former income while she is enjoying the family home, free time, and better financial resources.
24
@16- Well she was getting fat, so of course he'd help out with childcare.
(I strongly suspect this divorce should have come many years ago)
(I strongly suspect this divorce should have come many years ago)
26
Sometimes I feel there are more of these women out there than we want to believe.
And @4. Do you honestly believe a discussion with said woman would bring anything productive out of the situation?
Hence why he vents to I anonymous?
Some people can speak English to each other, doesn't mean they are speaking the same language. If that's the case, then you look for your opportunity, choose your battles, agree to disagree and walk away.
And @4. Do you honestly believe a discussion with said woman would bring anything productive out of the situation?
Hence why he vents to I anonymous?
Some people can speak English to each other, doesn't mean they are speaking the same language. If that's the case, then you look for your opportunity, choose your battles, agree to disagree and walk away.
28
Awesome. Be nice to your kids though. My parents divorced under (seemingly) very similar circumstances and I'm happy to report both of them remained a strong influence in my life. 15 years later they can't really speak to each other but I have a great relationship with both of them. I hope your kids are as lucky.
29
26
I think this dude has kept some pretty major issues to himself that would have been better addressed earlier.
From the tone of his letter, sounds like he should never have let things get this far in the first place without speaking up or doing anything about it, if he really feels the way he does.
I think this dude has kept some pretty major issues to himself that would have been better addressed earlier.
From the tone of his letter, sounds like he should never have let things get this far in the first place without speaking up or doing anything about it, if he really feels the way he does.
30
Without knowing both sides; at the very least, I hope that felt good to write down.
"...because I recognized this little ruse for what it is: your willful retirement from the world of adulthood" is kinda a great sentence, however.
"...because I recognized this little ruse for what it is: your willful retirement from the world of adulthood" is kinda a great sentence, however.
31
Any woman who will hook up with a porn-addicted loser who walks out on his family is not very smart, or attractive.
32
Sounds atypical of what I see in my breeder friends around me everyday. I thought this was the definition of marriage (why Ive always advocated the gay community coming up with something better)and am not surprised that is a anonymous submission as a million people will be wondering if its them this guy is talking about.
33
Loser is addicted to porn and would rather jack off to it than deal with a real human relationship.
34
You are obviously not an attorney. No one without significant assets can afford to go to court every time the noncustodial parent fucks up. Get a life.
and contempt proceedings and judgments every time he misses a visit with the children, returns them late, or tries to act in the controlling manner typical of "federal agents".
You are obviously not an attorney. No one without significant assets can afford to go to court every time the noncustodial parent fucks up. Get a life.
37
@29 I aggree with you, BUT I think what he was doing was delaying the inevitable ... a divorce.
But I have become aware that open conflict is most certainly the last thing most married couples want to have, and generally DEAD LAST in what people expect from the each other in the Pacific Northwest. People around here play the passive aggressive game quite maliciously and allow their true emotions to just bubble beneath the surface. I think they both knew exactly what was going on and neither did care. At least the Italians don't let their anger fester :-)
I'll propose this. They are both strong willed stubborn goal oriented people with well defined agendas. This man wanted a life partner in addition to a wife and mother, while perhaps the woman he married simply just wanted kids. Now she has everything she wants (accept for a miserable passive aggressive husband), where as the husband doesn't really have much of anything but his career which he views as his freedom card.
But I have become aware that open conflict is most certainly the last thing most married couples want to have, and generally DEAD LAST in what people expect from the each other in the Pacific Northwest. People around here play the passive aggressive game quite maliciously and allow their true emotions to just bubble beneath the surface. I think they both knew exactly what was going on and neither did care. At least the Italians don't let their anger fester :-)
I'll propose this. They are both strong willed stubborn goal oriented people with well defined agendas. This man wanted a life partner in addition to a wife and mother, while perhaps the woman he married simply just wanted kids. Now she has everything she wants (accept for a miserable passive aggressive husband), where as the husband doesn't really have much of anything but his career which he views as his freedom card.
40
See, gay marriage is ruining straight marriages already! He said so in there... he'd choose porn over his wife and since we all know most porn is gay porn it proves it.
41
Ah, I Anonymous. Giving people of all ages, creeds, colors, and sexes a reason to bitch anonymously about other people bitching anonymously.
42
One more thing, I KNOW we don't have the wife's perspective. But why do I smell gold digger on this one? Successful man who feels absolutely no power in the relationship? Wife who likes the stability and children?
Is the guy acting ironically childish, frustrated, and juvenile? Perhaps ...
but come on!
Are women just THAT infallible?
Is the guy acting ironically childish, frustrated, and juvenile? Perhaps ...
but come on!
Are women just THAT infallible?
43
This couple should try to ban talking about their kids for an evening. Then a second evening. Then a third evening. It takes a lot of practice to jump-start adult conversations in a post-kid life, but it can be done and it is well worth it. Once she discovers that she still has a brain that doesn't always include the kids, she might discover that she also has a body. And her body just might wake up too.
44
Did I miss something, or did the letter writer just suggest that teachers don't have real jobs?
"Someone may not like you, and you're going to have to cope with the real world, in a real job setting, in a real relationship, instead of being a school teacher in a retirement town that opts out of every relationship that doesn't have a predetermined power advantage."
"Someone may not like you, and you're going to have to cope with the real world, in a real job setting, in a real relationship, instead of being a school teacher in a retirement town that opts out of every relationship that doesn't have a predetermined power advantage."
48
I blame the gays for redefining marriage. Now all the straight men are going to expect to be able to watch all the porn they want, get blow jobs when ever they feel like having one have great sex all throughout there marriages. Now I see why all those people on the NOM video are scared.
49
I'm betting their courtship was short, as was the waiting period between marriage and children. They obviously didn't get to know each other too well before getting in this deep.
50
@42,
He doesn't seem to be complaining about money nearly enough for this to be a gold digger issue. Why would she be working if he's the provider and the kids are all that matter to her?
I suspect these two deserve each other. She can't talk about anything other than the kids, but there's no mention of the sparkling conversations they had beforehand. Could she have been a dullard all along and he didn't care as long as the sex was plentiful?
Nevertheless, he's the one who's put his grievances out there and he's the one who's outed himself as a grade A douche.
He doesn't seem to be complaining about money nearly enough for this to be a gold digger issue. Why would she be working if he's the provider and the kids are all that matter to her?
I suspect these two deserve each other. She can't talk about anything other than the kids, but there's no mention of the sparkling conversations they had beforehand. Could she have been a dullard all along and he didn't care as long as the sex was plentiful?
Nevertheless, he's the one who's put his grievances out there and he's the one who's outed himself as a grade A douche.
51
This is sad. Some aspects of this remind me of my relationship with my ex-wife, but it was never remotely this bad. Of course, she is the ex-wife.
53
This guy reminds me of my dad. After chasing around three kids all day, feeling fat and unattractive after packing on fifty extra pounds, having sex when us kids went to bed was the last thing on her mind. She didn't really have time to keep up with current events, either.
I can understand the feeling of bait and switch, but the mother of three is not the same carefree chick that he married -- she just isn't.
If he doesn't vent anonymously, where can he vent? Believe me, no one he knows wants to hear that shit. Once he's typed it out, perhaps he'll be purged of it.
My dad's solution was to get a girlfriend. He figured marriage entitled him to sex, and if my mother wasn't going to provide it he would simply go elsewhere.
I can understand the feeling of bait and switch, but the mother of three is not the same carefree chick that he married -- she just isn't.
If he doesn't vent anonymously, where can he vent? Believe me, no one he knows wants to hear that shit. Once he's typed it out, perhaps he'll be purged of it.
My dad's solution was to get a girlfriend. He figured marriage entitled him to sex, and if my mother wasn't going to provide it he would simply go elsewhere.
54
@50
I don't think he cares about spending money, so long as everyone is "happy". I mean, he's not complaining about the money so much but it's just not DOING anything. As far as the wife being a dullard before they even met? That's a possibility too, and perhaps the guy is just magically expecting her to come to speed.
I wouldn't say grade A douche. I'd say grade B. But seriously, airing your grievances when they are that severe and personal TO THE WIFE! It's either she gets it or she doesn't. Rarely do I see anything positive come out of it. Maybe he's terrified of getting taken to couples counceling. the greatest fear of a guy is being taken to a couples counceler and called a douche for having sexual desires and wanting an "adult" life, and not being strong or good enough to stick up for himself.
So he takes it out on I Anonymous ... ironically the last place he is ever going to get any pity.
I don't think he cares about spending money, so long as everyone is "happy". I mean, he's not complaining about the money so much but it's just not DOING anything. As far as the wife being a dullard before they even met? That's a possibility too, and perhaps the guy is just magically expecting her to come to speed.
I wouldn't say grade A douche. I'd say grade B. But seriously, airing your grievances when they are that severe and personal TO THE WIFE! It's either she gets it or she doesn't. Rarely do I see anything positive come out of it. Maybe he's terrified of getting taken to couples counceling. the greatest fear of a guy is being taken to a couples counceler and called a douche for having sexual desires and wanting an "adult" life, and not being strong or good enough to stick up for himself.
So he takes it out on I Anonymous ... ironically the last place he is ever going to get any pity.
55
At first I had the same thought process as #3.
Now, with the title added, I dunno whether my first instinct was correct.
Now, with the title added, I dunno whether my first instinct was correct.
56
@10: You slay me!
@27: Stfu!
I'm really upset that I can see my friend being the wife. Because it will probably happen.
@27: Stfu!
I'm really upset that I can see my friend being the wife. Because it will probably happen.
58
what a douche bag. so leave her already. but try telling her to her FACE what you really feel. we don't give a shit how miserable you've allowed yourself to become in your sexless marriage.
59
I found myself thinking about this letter, because it is so sad and things didn't have to be that way.
I am always taken surprise by couples who don't make time for each other. How they heck do they remember why they liked each other enough to have kids? I remembered those days of feeling like I did nothing but meet the needs of the children I have been blessed with. Still, we made time, without out the aid of family to babysit. There were times (many) when I had to be reminded that their was more to life then being a mom by my husband, and I am grateful now. I hope this couple gives it a shot. Maybe, they could try counseling and a weekend away. Having just returned from Cabo, I really recommend a holiday without children.
I am always taken surprise by couples who don't make time for each other. How they heck do they remember why they liked each other enough to have kids? I remembered those days of feeling like I did nothing but meet the needs of the children I have been blessed with. Still, we made time, without out the aid of family to babysit. There were times (many) when I had to be reminded that their was more to life then being a mom by my husband, and I am grateful now. I hope this couple gives it a shot. Maybe, they could try counseling and a weekend away. Having just returned from Cabo, I really recommend a holiday without children.
60
@54,
Yeah. He's definitely terrified of doing anything one way or another. He seems to be hoping that one day she'll just snap out of it. Ironically, she's probably hoping he'll do the same thing. I suspect he'll never leave until/unless he gets someone else pregnant, at which point he has an easy excuse.
Maybe he's not grade A, but this rant includes a number of shitty details that simply aren't called for, like insulting what she does for a living.
Yeah. He's definitely terrified of doing anything one way or another. He seems to be hoping that one day she'll just snap out of it. Ironically, she's probably hoping he'll do the same thing. I suspect he'll never leave until/unless he gets someone else pregnant, at which point he has an easy excuse.
Maybe he's not grade A, but this rant includes a number of shitty details that simply aren't called for, like insulting what she does for a living.
61
what a douche bag. so leave her already. but try telling her to her FACE what you really feel. we don't give a shit how miserable you've allowed yourself to become in your sexless marriage.
The first step to recovery is recognizing that there's a problem.
The first step to recovery is recognizing that there's a problem.
62
Dear Anonymous,
Breeding is for suckers. If you want a friend and lover instead of a mommy, don't make the same mistake and get the next gal knocked up. Find one who hates kids. Get snipped. Both.
Breeding is for suckers. If you want a friend and lover instead of a mommy, don't make the same mistake and get the next gal knocked up. Find one who hates kids. Get snipped. Both.
64
Good for him. She sounds like dead weight. Life is for enjoying. And he has a right to enjoy it. If she thinks she can change everything to suit herself, why can't he. Some women want to drain life of any fun. Run from them like hell.
65
Mom abandons relationship with husband in order to focus on her kids?
I'll bet Dan Savage get's piles of letters like this each week.
I'll bet Dan Savage get's piles of letters like this each week.
67
The one fact he brings up that I agree with: Why is it hard to engage in adult conversations with some people? I tried to talk to my grandparents (who are mormon) about prop 8 in california, because I was interested in their old person views. My parents and sister practically jumped across the table to shut me up.
"Don't upset them!!!! They are old!! What are you thinking?!?!" -them (hostile and pissed)
"Uhhhh I thought we were adults and could talk about current issues and things that are effecting the world around us" - me
"God, don't you know they are old and can't handle it?!?!?!"-them
So back to stupid, boring chit-chat with the grandparents. I can't even talk politics with my dad when my sister is around. She gets all huffy and pissed off and tells us to shut up. I don't understand it.
"Don't upset them!!!! They are old!! What are you thinking?!?!" -them (hostile and pissed)
"Uhhhh I thought we were adults and could talk about current issues and things that are effecting the world around us" - me
"God, don't you know they are old and can't handle it?!?!?!"-them
So back to stupid, boring chit-chat with the grandparents. I can't even talk politics with my dad when my sister is around. She gets all huffy and pissed off and tells us to shut up. I don't understand it.
68
It would really be nice if he realized that the wife is likely to give as much meaning to this man's life as he'll ever have. Maybe he should focus some of his attention on creating a loving atmosphere in his home instead of double-book accounting ("I paid for the treadmill, so you should use it").
Well, who hasn't bought something with great intentions, only to abandon them? Do we want our life partner hounding us about it?
I recommend the occasional purchase of flowers, the occasional drawing of a warm bath with candles, the occasional stroll along a local beach and a nice glass of wine in an adult setting. And have each of these followed by a foot or shoulder massage with no pestering for further gratification.
Maybe if he actually put some energy into showing appreciation for the mother of his children, this man could at least gain the satisfaction of knowing he'd done something to make the world a better place, even if it didn't move her in any way.
Love and marriage is really mostly about giving, not receiving. Those who are looking for a return on investment are likely to be lonely, porn-addicted and divorced.
Well, who hasn't bought something with great intentions, only to abandon them? Do we want our life partner hounding us about it?
I recommend the occasional purchase of flowers, the occasional drawing of a warm bath with candles, the occasional stroll along a local beach and a nice glass of wine in an adult setting. And have each of these followed by a foot or shoulder massage with no pestering for further gratification.
Maybe if he actually put some energy into showing appreciation for the mother of his children, this man could at least gain the satisfaction of knowing he'd done something to make the world a better place, even if it didn't move her in any way.
Love and marriage is really mostly about giving, not receiving. Those who are looking for a return on investment are likely to be lonely, porn-addicted and divorced.
69
If this guy thinks his kids will continue to be wonderful to him after he dumps their mother, he is seriously deluded. What an idiot.
72
and this is why I am so very glad that my wife and I never had kids.
This all reminds me of what a friend of mine once said, when asked by someone laden down with offspring, when was he and his wife were going to have kids? He replied"now why would I want to go and break my favorite toy!"
This all reminds me of what a friend of mine once said, when asked by someone laden down with offspring, when was he and his wife were going to have kids? He replied"now why would I want to go and break my favorite toy!"
73
@62. word. i would shoot myself in the face if i ever became like that woman, and i would rip out my own ovaries with a rusty spork before i ever have children!
74
This piece seems to be a great rorschak test for the SLOG community. Twenty year olds and childless gays see it as everything that's wrong with breeder matrimony, an side with the guy. Those of us who have been around a bit longer see it as at best a fucked marriage on both sides and at worst that he's a douchy loser.
News flash: every husband since the beginning of time has hated having to share his wife with the kids. But we do, because (a) most of us wanted the kids, (b) most of us find some freedom in not demanding to be the center of attention every god damned second and (c) most of us love parenting. But it DOES suck for a while- little kids are an incredible time sink.
But it usually gets better! Or it doesn't. Marriages tend to go belly up after the first few "hard years" because Daddy expects things to go back to usual and then disengages when they don't.
But it's up to you buddy! Make your marriage what you want it to be. Find the sitter, take your wife out, tell her what you see, what you need, find out what she's thinking. Then leave, or don't. But don't stick around a spouse and children you OBVIOUSLY can't stand because you're too much of a fucking coward to say anything or move a fucking muscle. You're not doing them any favors, much less you.
My wife and I went through several years of marital counseling. It really can get better, but not until you take some action and quit complaining about things "should" be.
News flash: every husband since the beginning of time has hated having to share his wife with the kids. But we do, because (a) most of us wanted the kids, (b) most of us find some freedom in not demanding to be the center of attention every god damned second and (c) most of us love parenting. But it DOES suck for a while- little kids are an incredible time sink.
But it usually gets better! Or it doesn't. Marriages tend to go belly up after the first few "hard years" because Daddy expects things to go back to usual and then disengages when they don't.
But it's up to you buddy! Make your marriage what you want it to be. Find the sitter, take your wife out, tell her what you see, what you need, find out what she's thinking. Then leave, or don't. But don't stick around a spouse and children you OBVIOUSLY can't stand because you're too much of a fucking coward to say anything or move a fucking muscle. You're not doing them any favors, much less you.
My wife and I went through several years of marital counseling. It really can get better, but not until you take some action and quit complaining about things "should" be.
76
So he needed to say some of this shit out loud. Take some responsibility now and tell the wife. What is the worst, she will leave?
What is so hard about telling someone the truth? Oh yeah, someone calls you on your shit, too.
What is so hard about telling someone the truth? Oh yeah, someone calls you on your shit, too.
77
What a douche. He thinks she's passive agrressive? Crap, dude, look in a mirror!
p.s. Man, if you do divorce, I hope you don't plan on being a swinging single, because half the time you'll be a single parent. You'll get to clean up all the piss, snot, vomit, diarrhea and other child-related messes yourself....it won't be you're just your wife's job anymore. Also, bright, attractive, well-read, smart women generally aren't turned on by guys who dump the run-down mother's of their children...they are smart after all.
p.s. Man, if you do divorce, I hope you don't plan on being a swinging single, because half the time you'll be a single parent. You'll get to clean up all the piss, snot, vomit, diarrhea and other child-related messes yourself....it won't be you're just your wife's job anymore. Also, bright, attractive, well-read, smart women generally aren't turned on by guys who dump the run-down mother's of their children...they are smart after all.
78
Big sven, nobody's siding with the guy.
every husband since the beginning of time has hated having to share his wife with the kids.
I think this guy would love to share his wife with the kids. His current percentage is zero.
Wives can easily demote the dad to role of star boarder and income stream, as they focus on the fruit of their wombs. Dads justifiably feel hurt as they are left out.
Guys exchange sexual variety for intimacy. The guy who finds himself shut out of both intimacy and sex has every right to complain.
every husband since the beginning of time has hated having to share his wife with the kids.
I think this guy would love to share his wife with the kids. His current percentage is zero.
Wives can easily demote the dad to role of star boarder and income stream, as they focus on the fruit of their wombs. Dads justifiably feel hurt as they are left out.
Guys exchange sexual variety for intimacy. The guy who finds himself shut out of both intimacy and sex has every right to complain.
79
I notice that the vast majority of the wife's defenders are women, and I hate to be a part of that statistic, but this guy does sound like an ass. There are two sides to every story, and I bet hers is a doozy as well.
81
Yes, I'm sure this man's wife has little to complain about. Her husband is clearly a deeply sympathetic and considerate human being.
82
It's too bad he didn't have the balls to actually discuss this with his wife before it got out of hand.
84
I also think he's a dickwad for belittling his wife's depression.
She's up to her ears with 3 kids, struggles with her weight, is depressed--and he wonders why she won't be his cum slut?!
I wonder what's up with the porn issue, as well. Either the wife is shunning all porn or maybe in principle she's still pro-porn but that he's into some really skanky stuff, the type that she can't relate to.
She's up to her ears with 3 kids, struggles with her weight, is depressed--and he wonders why she won't be his cum slut?!
I wonder what's up with the porn issue, as well. Either the wife is shunning all porn or maybe in principle she's still pro-porn but that he's into some really skanky stuff, the type that she can't relate to.
86
The enormous number of comments shows me two things:
1) everybody loves a train wreck
2) how many of us come closer than we care to admit to being at this point
We are getting his side of the story and he still sounds like a dick.. I can imagine things are well and truly fucked on both sides. Everyone wants to cast blame on really ridiculous things: porn, misogyny, depression, fat, what the fuck ever.
"Yay traditional marriage?" I know 17 is trying to be funny, but this could be any marriage, traditional or otherwise.
Actually, I want to add in some blame too. I won't absolve individuals from working to their own happiness and commitments. Isolating people into their own nuclear families with little meaningful support or deeper outside friendships sets a lot of people down this path.
1) everybody loves a train wreck
2) how many of us come closer than we care to admit to being at this point
We are getting his side of the story and he still sounds like a dick.. I can imagine things are well and truly fucked on both sides. Everyone wants to cast blame on really ridiculous things: porn, misogyny, depression, fat, what the fuck ever.
"Yay traditional marriage?" I know 17 is trying to be funny, but this could be any marriage, traditional or otherwise.
Actually, I want to add in some blame too. I won't absolve individuals from working to their own happiness and commitments. Isolating people into their own nuclear families with little meaningful support or deeper outside friendships sets a lot of people down this path.
87
#85, l'm in total agreement.
Big Sven and Celibacy's posts (#74 and #78, respectively) are not only thankfully mature in their responses, l think that they both hit the nail on the head, despite their differing thoughts on the matter.
l disagree slightly that this guy is just sitting around and jacking off and not doing a damn thing to fix his marriage. l get the feeling that after he's tried everything, jacking off is what he's left with.
"Why would we discuss what's happening with the economy, you know nothing about economies, have no interest, don't want to hear other people discuss it, and one of the kids made a funny face today and it needs to be described in scrutinizing detail. Fuck my 401k, you never knew how it worked to start with."
lt sounds like he was starving for some general intelligent discourse on topics that he clearly hopes she might show some interest in. Clearly, she doesn't. She obviously IS a busy mother by his own post, but it's a hell of a lot easier when the libido is understandably low if at least the intellect is still getting some stimulation.
His efforts to help with the gym membership (presumably because *she* said that she wanted to lose some weight, seeing as how she bought a treadmill) and watch the kids imply he's not only trying to communicate with her (even on a basic level) and offer support, those efforts aren't being acknowledged, and/or he's failing in his communications much in the same way she's failing to hear them.
You know that period of anger we feel after a relationship has ended (at least emotionally if not literally)? Where in retrospect, we realize how much shit we put up with, and how much we wish we could/should have done to make it better? That's what this feels like to me.
lt also sounds like the only thing that would work now is counseling, but sometimes we just reach the point of no return, and that's just how it is. Maybe they rushed into things, they both failed in their communication, and now they know the hard way it wasn't meant to be, but it's just not meant to be. Counseling is a two way street anyway; there's no guarantee either party is willing to do that.
l hope they pull it together for the sake of the kids, though, even if divorce is what they both need to function as a parental unit.
More...
Big Sven and Celibacy's posts (#74 and #78, respectively) are not only thankfully mature in their responses, l think that they both hit the nail on the head, despite their differing thoughts on the matter.
l disagree slightly that this guy is just sitting around and jacking off and not doing a damn thing to fix his marriage. l get the feeling that after he's tried everything, jacking off is what he's left with.
"Why would we discuss what's happening with the economy, you know nothing about economies, have no interest, don't want to hear other people discuss it, and one of the kids made a funny face today and it needs to be described in scrutinizing detail. Fuck my 401k, you never knew how it worked to start with."
lt sounds like he was starving for some general intelligent discourse on topics that he clearly hopes she might show some interest in. Clearly, she doesn't. She obviously IS a busy mother by his own post, but it's a hell of a lot easier when the libido is understandably low if at least the intellect is still getting some stimulation.
His efforts to help with the gym membership (presumably because *she* said that she wanted to lose some weight, seeing as how she bought a treadmill) and watch the kids imply he's not only trying to communicate with her (even on a basic level) and offer support, those efforts aren't being acknowledged, and/or he's failing in his communications much in the same way she's failing to hear them.
You know that period of anger we feel after a relationship has ended (at least emotionally if not literally)? Where in retrospect, we realize how much shit we put up with, and how much we wish we could/should have done to make it better? That's what this feels like to me.
lt also sounds like the only thing that would work now is counseling, but sometimes we just reach the point of no return, and that's just how it is. Maybe they rushed into things, they both failed in their communication, and now they know the hard way it wasn't meant to be, but it's just not meant to be. Counseling is a two way street anyway; there's no guarantee either party is willing to do that.
l hope they pull it together for the sake of the kids, though, even if divorce is what they both need to function as a parental unit.
88
More thoughts, as I wait for my carpool.
* 9 times out of 10 it's not *about* the sex. Sex is just the canary in the coal mine reacting to communication issues, post partum depression, power disparity, work/family priorities, etc. My experience is that healthy women in happy relationships like to fuck!
* The porn doesn't seem dangerous, because it's clearly a fantasy, but the idea that he can wander off and find a great new girlfriend does. This comes from misunderstanding desire. There are tons of times I look at a prettty woman and think "wow would it be fun to have sex with her." At work, PTA, parties, the grocery store, the DMV... that's how many of us are wired. But I also think- at least once a day- "boy would it be fun to drop everything and move to Hawaii." But I don't because I'm not independently wealthy and I have a life here. Hot single women will not be interested in this unhappy guy, and this delusion is allowing him to wander out of his marriage without really trying to fix it.
* If you've been married for maybe five years or more, and/or you've got kids, and you're unhappy with your marriage,
(1) see a therapist- you're unhappy for fuck's sake, and if they concur,
(2) get into couple's therapy.
Yes it will be expensive, but unless you live in a cardboard box it will be 10x less than divorce and lawyer costs.
* 9 times out of 10 it's not *about* the sex. Sex is just the canary in the coal mine reacting to communication issues, post partum depression, power disparity, work/family priorities, etc. My experience is that healthy women in happy relationships like to fuck!
* The porn doesn't seem dangerous, because it's clearly a fantasy, but the idea that he can wander off and find a great new girlfriend does. This comes from misunderstanding desire. There are tons of times I look at a prettty woman and think "wow would it be fun to have sex with her." At work, PTA, parties, the grocery store, the DMV... that's how many of us are wired. But I also think- at least once a day- "boy would it be fun to drop everything and move to Hawaii." But I don't because I'm not independently wealthy and I have a life here. Hot single women will not be interested in this unhappy guy, and this delusion is allowing him to wander out of his marriage without really trying to fix it.
* If you've been married for maybe five years or more, and/or you've got kids, and you're unhappy with your marriage,
(1) see a therapist- you're unhappy for fuck's sake, and if they concur,
(2) get into couple's therapy.
Yes it will be expensive, but unless you live in a cardboard box it will be 10x less than divorce and lawyer costs.
89
@78:
Totally agree. And he should complain. To his wife, directly. Not to us, anonymously.
Guys exchange sexual variety for intimacy. The guy who finds himself shut out of both intimacy and sex has every right to complain.
Totally agree. And he should complain. To his wife, directly. Not to us, anonymously.
90
Madonna/Whore complex much?
This is one of the major reasons that I chose not to have children. They are all-consuming and exhausting and not at all the life-fulfilling adventure they are made out to be in our baby obsessed media. Once a woman has children she just can't seem to be anything but a mommy, and it's bullshit. I don't think men have the multi-tasking ability it takes to "mother" children and yet women get no credit for this and are just labeled as "matriarchal sexless" nags and bitches. Yeah, that's fucking depressing. I'd stay fat just to keep this asshole away from me.
Where the fuck was this guy when the decision was made to breed this many kids? How involved is he in his children's lives? The saddest thing about all of this is the impact on the kids. People really need to THINK before they breed.
This is one of the major reasons that I chose not to have children. They are all-consuming and exhausting and not at all the life-fulfilling adventure they are made out to be in our baby obsessed media. Once a woman has children she just can't seem to be anything but a mommy, and it's bullshit. I don't think men have the multi-tasking ability it takes to "mother" children and yet women get no credit for this and are just labeled as "matriarchal sexless" nags and bitches. Yeah, that's fucking depressing. I'd stay fat just to keep this asshole away from me.
Where the fuck was this guy when the decision was made to breed this many kids? How involved is he in his children's lives? The saddest thing about all of this is the impact on the kids. People really need to THINK before they breed.
95
eh ...
I still think this marriage is beyond redemption. I think there are SOME couples, some families that are healthy and diverse in their interests. The kids grow up well rounded, independent, savy, and have variety of interests. It's a beautiful thing. The families that people are the most proud of (even ME who grew up in a broken home). Was where the dynamic turned into more of a team. Not to the point where we were togethor all the time. But we would go skiing and worked out togethor. Go to the cape on Sundays. But we would offer support for our time with our friends, when we were on the swim team. We would also engage in discussion about literature etc. etc. My mother was a huge shakespear nut.
My Dad, when he was there, took us on vacations and such. He learned to cook.
I guess, being in a broken home isn't SO bad so long as the children are still the focus, and personally it was worse when they were togethor because it SUCKS watching your parents grow up.
This guy is totally venting his anger. I think his vitrol disguises the fact that he is not in the family he wants to be. I'll give him some of the benefit of the doubt and he is disturbed by the fact that mom is totally obsessively over babying the children.
But I feel he is too chicken shit to tell the wife, why? Because he is going to look like a total douche and have to leave her.
I still think this marriage is beyond redemption. I think there are SOME couples, some families that are healthy and diverse in their interests. The kids grow up well rounded, independent, savy, and have variety of interests. It's a beautiful thing. The families that people are the most proud of (even ME who grew up in a broken home). Was where the dynamic turned into more of a team. Not to the point where we were togethor all the time. But we would go skiing and worked out togethor. Go to the cape on Sundays. But we would offer support for our time with our friends, when we were on the swim team. We would also engage in discussion about literature etc. etc. My mother was a huge shakespear nut.
My Dad, when he was there, took us on vacations and such. He learned to cook.
I guess, being in a broken home isn't SO bad so long as the children are still the focus, and personally it was worse when they were togethor because it SUCKS watching your parents grow up.
This guy is totally venting his anger. I think his vitrol disguises the fact that he is not in the family he wants to be. I'll give him some of the benefit of the doubt and he is disturbed by the fact that mom is totally obsessively over babying the children.
But I feel he is too chicken shit to tell the wife, why? Because he is going to look like a total douche and have to leave her.
98
@ 96. I wish I didn't know what I was talking about. Unfortunately, too many of the smart, interesting women I used to know are now total mommybots. They once had an interest in the world around them, and now all they care about is the consistency of their kids poop. They were once involved in their community and politics and art and are now stuck in the insular world of "family." They once believed in public schools but now want to send their precious little ones to private schools. They are all very, very frustrated with male partners who do not get how isolating raising young children is, how much planning it involves, and how exhausting it is. Sure, they love their kids, but I think it is a myth that one can only gain meaning and satisfaction in life by breeding. This is something we tell ourselves to justify what is basically a very strong biological urge.
I work with children, and they get so fucked up by their parents unrealistic expectations of what it means to raise a kid. By absentee fathers, and by overworked, resentful mothers. We put so much emphasis on reproduction in this culture, but very little on children and their actual needs.
Good for you that you that you are a stay-at-home dad. You know of course, that you are in a very small minority, right?
I work with children, and they get so fucked up by their parents unrealistic expectations of what it means to raise a kid. By absentee fathers, and by overworked, resentful mothers. We put so much emphasis on reproduction in this culture, but very little on children and their actual needs.
Good for you that you that you are a stay-at-home dad. You know of course, that you are in a very small minority, right?
99
Reading that makes me want to leave work and give girlfriend- who doesn't want kids AT ALL, is horny as hell, and enjoys porn- a BIG hug.
100
w@99: This thread made me give my wife- who is sweet and kind and holds down a great full time professional job and also helps raise our two kids- a great big long hug.
101
90 & 98: I concur with what 96 says. You are a clueless idiot. You throw stereotypes out about 'mommybots' - let me throw one back to you or any self-absorbed 20-something: You have an adorable doggie that you dress in sweaters? If so, good luck with that as you reflect on your life purpose while in your 50's, 60's, and beyond...
I spent most of my adult life feeling ambivalent about whether to become a parent because (a) I lacked a suitable or willing partner and (b) resources were lacking.
However, as is life, I had a change in circumstances (new good paying career, and finally, the right partner) and became a mother 2 weeks before my 42nd birthday.
Becoming a parent is like going through the looking glass without return - there are things that will never, ever be the same.
Excuse me if you have no clue, but every minute I am with my child, I never, ever take my new life for-granted. Being a mom is the most important project of my life. Period. Being a good partner is the most important project of my life. Period. That is not to say that either of these roles don't compete with one another, and both of them with my career. Time, energy, and money are finite resources. And, with a toddler around, the sex is definitely less frequent. But at least my husband and I *talk* about it and try to work things out.
And we know that the fatigue, lost sleep, and diminished libidos are of a situation that won't last forever. Which leads to me thinking about one of the best lessons of parenthood: delayed gratification. Having the patience and a long-term view of things is something that comes with maturity, a concept much unknown to petulant, self-absorbed yuppies.
Signed, A tired mom who DOES have a life and interest in non-mundane things.
PS My husband is a stay-at-home dad 4 days per week and ROCKS at it.
More...
I spent most of my adult life feeling ambivalent about whether to become a parent because (a) I lacked a suitable or willing partner and (b) resources were lacking.
However, as is life, I had a change in circumstances (new good paying career, and finally, the right partner) and became a mother 2 weeks before my 42nd birthday.
Becoming a parent is like going through the looking glass without return - there are things that will never, ever be the same.
Excuse me if you have no clue, but every minute I am with my child, I never, ever take my new life for-granted. Being a mom is the most important project of my life. Period. Being a good partner is the most important project of my life. Period. That is not to say that either of these roles don't compete with one another, and both of them with my career. Time, energy, and money are finite resources. And, with a toddler around, the sex is definitely less frequent. But at least my husband and I *talk* about it and try to work things out.
And we know that the fatigue, lost sleep, and diminished libidos are of a situation that won't last forever. Which leads to me thinking about one of the best lessons of parenthood: delayed gratification. Having the patience and a long-term view of things is something that comes with maturity, a concept much unknown to petulant, self-absorbed yuppies.
Signed, A tired mom who DOES have a life and interest in non-mundane things.
PS My husband is a stay-at-home dad 4 days per week and ROCKS at it.
102
Madashell?
Question. Would you say your the majority of parents out there?
Do you consider yourself lucky in that you and your husband read each other fairly well?
and the whole thing about satisfaction being a parent? It's actually kind of bull shit. It's a natural chemical responce. While the majority of times, parents are miserable with the whole raising of children. It's the brains way of coping with the stress of family it actualy releases happy stuff to make you feel that much better about your children. The key is, it only works when you are PRESENT in the childs life do you get the high.
That's why Dad's generaly distant from the family when they put their career first, or they become even more distant when they are booted/leave the house. 50% of fathers living outside the home have any contact with their children in the home (weird article about this on U.S. News and World Report.) When you are removed from your offspring, it becomes like any long distance relationship, and you feel less attachment.
Perhaps one of the reasons you guys do fairly well is that you both A)share the parenting load and able to bond with the kids B) have adult lives outside of the home.
Personally, if I was EVER to consider having a family I would like to be in a position of both these reasonable (but often challenging) circumstances. Not only do the parents benefit, but the children benefit as well.
It's not just that I'm a 20 something without children I have this negative point of view. But families like this! Happen all the fucking time! Hell, the majority of my peers and the people I grew up with seemed to to have lived in these families.
There has got to be more to life than this?
More...
Question. Would you say your the majority of parents out there?
Do you consider yourself lucky in that you and your husband read each other fairly well?
and the whole thing about satisfaction being a parent? It's actually kind of bull shit. It's a natural chemical responce. While the majority of times, parents are miserable with the whole raising of children. It's the brains way of coping with the stress of family it actualy releases happy stuff to make you feel that much better about your children. The key is, it only works when you are PRESENT in the childs life do you get the high.
That's why Dad's generaly distant from the family when they put their career first, or they become even more distant when they are booted/leave the house. 50% of fathers living outside the home have any contact with their children in the home (weird article about this on U.S. News and World Report.) When you are removed from your offspring, it becomes like any long distance relationship, and you feel less attachment.
Perhaps one of the reasons you guys do fairly well is that you both A)share the parenting load and able to bond with the kids B) have adult lives outside of the home.
Personally, if I was EVER to consider having a family I would like to be in a position of both these reasonable (but often challenging) circumstances. Not only do the parents benefit, but the children benefit as well.
It's not just that I'm a 20 something without children I have this negative point of view. But families like this! Happen all the fucking time! Hell, the majority of my peers and the people I grew up with seemed to to have lived in these families.
There has got to be more to life than this?
103
Hey Madashell:
Guess what? I'm not a 20 something yuppie with a sweater-wearing dog. I am a social worker serving kids in the child dependency system. I am also 42 and a foster-to-adopt parent to a 12-year old girl. I chose not to have an infant during advanced maternal age for the reasons I stated in my previous posts. Don't talk to me about unselfishness until you consider taking in a child that has been failed by our breeder-happy culture rather than creating your own perfect little fuck trophy. You breeders are so defensive.
Guess what? I'm not a 20 something yuppie with a sweater-wearing dog. I am a social worker serving kids in the child dependency system. I am also 42 and a foster-to-adopt parent to a 12-year old girl. I chose not to have an infant during advanced maternal age for the reasons I stated in my previous posts. Don't talk to me about unselfishness until you consider taking in a child that has been failed by our breeder-happy culture rather than creating your own perfect little fuck trophy. You breeders are so defensive.
104
Also: "Being a mom is the most important project of my life. Period."
I'm sorry, but what the fuck? You have nothing more to offer the world than being a mom? Thanks for spreading your talent around to benefit the rest of society. You just proved my point. Women will never hold the same economic and political power as men if we continue to say and believe things like, "being a mom is the most important accomplishment of my life." You drank the kool aid lady.
I'm sorry, but what the fuck? You have nothing more to offer the world than being a mom? Thanks for spreading your talent around to benefit the rest of society. You just proved my point. Women will never hold the same economic and political power as men if we continue to say and believe things like, "being a mom is the most important accomplishment of my life." You drank the kool aid lady.
105
@104:
Being a dad is the most important accomplishment of my life.
And fuck you for telling me I shouldn't feel the way I do. Did Madashell tell you that you should be unhappy being childless? No. Only YOU told HER how to live HER life. Also, YOU'RE the one who says I lack the genitals to be a good parent. God, you're ignorant.
Being a dad is the most important accomplishment of my life.
And fuck you for telling me I shouldn't feel the way I do. Did Madashell tell you that you should be unhappy being childless? No. Only YOU told HER how to live HER life. Also, YOU'RE the one who says I lack the genitals to be a good parent. God, you're ignorant.
106
I'm not childless. But then, I know you people don't count a parent/child relationship legitimate if the kid didn't come out of my vagina.
Just the fact that I touched a nerve proves there is truth to my argument. Have fun with your big "accomplishment."
Just the fact that I touched a nerve proves there is truth to my argument. Have fun with your big "accomplishment."
107
OK - funny story.
A friend of mine got divorced. He was talking about re-entering the dating scene with a co-worker and made a bet with a co-worker. They would each place an ad and see who got the most responses. My friend had to include "recent divorcee" in his ad, while his co-worker had to mention that he was missing a leg.
The amputee won easily.
A friend of mine got divorced. He was talking about re-entering the dating scene with a co-worker and made a bet with a co-worker. They would each place an ad and see who got the most responses. My friend had to include "recent divorcee" in his ad, while his co-worker had to mention that he was missing a leg.
The amputee won easily.
108
to "no babies for me, thanks" -
I think it's telling that you skipped pregnancy and raising a child from infancy. Kudos to you for adopting a foster child, and I say that sincerely. I just hope that your apparent detachment, which I read in your disdain for mothers, isn't something affecting your relationship with that child.
Anyway, bringing up children is about a million times more important than any career, artistic creation, or any of the other stuff you are unfortunate enough to place greater value upon. True, many breeders don't understand that (hence all the unhappy people in the world) but moms like Madashell understand that, and your superior bullshit doesn't change that.
I think it's telling that you skipped pregnancy and raising a child from infancy. Kudos to you for adopting a foster child, and I say that sincerely. I just hope that your apparent detachment, which I read in your disdain for mothers, isn't something affecting your relationship with that child.
Anyway, bringing up children is about a million times more important than any career, artistic creation, or any of the other stuff you are unfortunate enough to place greater value upon. True, many breeders don't understand that (hence all the unhappy people in the world) but moms like Madashell understand that, and your superior bullshit doesn't change that.
110
For the love of god Sven, and thank you "no babies for me, thanks" and stay at home dad, think of this.
There are six billion of these "most important thing[s] in my life. period" We are all choking out the planet. And your baby is so god damn special compared to everyone elses. We are all fucking special, and everyone else's life or opinion, is inconsequential. Perhaps in the grand scheme of things. Yes we all drank the cool aide. Nature is fucking us over hard and making us chemically dependant on our children in all sorts of strange ways. For instance, mothers milk comes with opiates that help nurse the bond between mother and child. The hormonal mood swings of pregnant women, and a number of other fun chemical indicators of bonding between parents and offspring that only now we are coming to understand.
I'm a scientist, I work in a field that not only slays families with the hours we are expected to work, we also have to look at the numbers and try to research ways that in the big picture, will enable more assess to inhabit this planet, experience a higher quality of life, and HOPEFULLY do less damage to it.
I hate the fact that I've come to this realization, but bringing more children into this world is perhaps the worst and most selfish expression of an emotional indulgance I can think of! Personaly I would rather have my emotional endulgances to effect the least amount of people possible, particularly an innoscent child.
Your welcome to myself and all of the other six billion "most important project[s] of my life. period." But the world could stand to use less less breeders not just from an anoyance stand point.
There are six billion of these "most important thing[s] in my life. period" We are all choking out the planet. And your baby is so god damn special compared to everyone elses. We are all fucking special, and everyone else's life or opinion, is inconsequential. Perhaps in the grand scheme of things. Yes we all drank the cool aide. Nature is fucking us over hard and making us chemically dependant on our children in all sorts of strange ways. For instance, mothers milk comes with opiates that help nurse the bond between mother and child. The hormonal mood swings of pregnant women, and a number of other fun chemical indicators of bonding between parents and offspring that only now we are coming to understand.
I'm a scientist, I work in a field that not only slays families with the hours we are expected to work, we also have to look at the numbers and try to research ways that in the big picture, will enable more assess to inhabit this planet, experience a higher quality of life, and HOPEFULLY do less damage to it.
I hate the fact that I've come to this realization, but bringing more children into this world is perhaps the worst and most selfish expression of an emotional indulgance I can think of! Personaly I would rather have my emotional endulgances to effect the least amount of people possible, particularly an innoscent child.
Your welcome to myself and all of the other six billion "most important project[s] of my life. period." But the world could stand to use less less breeders not just from an anoyance stand point.
112
@ 110, if my wife and I bring in two children into this world, that's zero growth.
Are you sure you're a scientist?
Are you sure you're a scientist?
113
@112
That's zero growth to an already taxed out planet. NEGATIVE growth would be ideal. Please try again.
It took 70 million years to create to make our fossil fuel reserves which we are blowing through in a few hundred years.
Crazy enough, I was in some seminar where I heard that nature no longer fixiates the majority of nitrogen anymore. Plants can't get nitrogen from the air, they need amonia and derivatives thereof. Our fertilizers plants fixiate 75% of the ammonia currently produced on the planet ... the hydrogen for this comes from fossil fuels. Which is why the Mississippi delta goes bat shit crazy with algae growth creating this massive death zone seen from space.
Organic farming is a wonderful pipe dream, but in order to produce enough food per land to FEED THE PEOPLE WE HAVE! We need pesticides, etc. etc.
Everything from our drugs to our plastics to the god damn lap top I'm writing on is derived from these precious resources.
Someone once told me it would take a 20 people to pedal a turbine to get enough juice to run an ipod.
Are you the Duggars? Obviosly not and yes we are all grateful for it. Are you being the best family you can be, considering what you have? Of course, and I suppose that's all I should ask and consider.
But my choice? I just thing it's hypocritical to say that having a child is such a selfless act, when from my outside perspective, it looks like such an indulgence. I have my indulgences too, I like my motorcycle and my urban life. I slog at work (that is an indulgence). But children, especially in the culture we breed them, especially strain it puts on the earth, and well ... especially when I've met way way way too many women who have them unilaterally. At the end of the day, can we call this a selfless act?
More...
That's zero growth to an already taxed out planet. NEGATIVE growth would be ideal. Please try again.
It took 70 million years to create to make our fossil fuel reserves which we are blowing through in a few hundred years.
Crazy enough, I was in some seminar where I heard that nature no longer fixiates the majority of nitrogen anymore. Plants can't get nitrogen from the air, they need amonia and derivatives thereof. Our fertilizers plants fixiate 75% of the ammonia currently produced on the planet ... the hydrogen for this comes from fossil fuels. Which is why the Mississippi delta goes bat shit crazy with algae growth creating this massive death zone seen from space.
Organic farming is a wonderful pipe dream, but in order to produce enough food per land to FEED THE PEOPLE WE HAVE! We need pesticides, etc. etc.
Everything from our drugs to our plastics to the god damn lap top I'm writing on is derived from these precious resources.
Someone once told me it would take a 20 people to pedal a turbine to get enough juice to run an ipod.
Are you the Duggars? Obviosly not and yes we are all grateful for it. Are you being the best family you can be, considering what you have? Of course, and I suppose that's all I should ask and consider.
But my choice? I just thing it's hypocritical to say that having a child is such a selfless act, when from my outside perspective, it looks like such an indulgence. I have my indulgences too, I like my motorcycle and my urban life. I slog at work (that is an indulgence). But children, especially in the culture we breed them, especially strain it puts on the earth, and well ... especially when I've met way way way too many women who have them unilaterally. At the end of the day, can we call this a selfless act?
114
@ no babies for me, thanks:
Um, Madashell became a parent just before her 42nd birthday, what makes you assume the child is biologically hers and "pushed it out her vagina"? You became a parent (to a 12 year old) and your vagina wasn't involved in the process. I'm not saying it's impossible, but 42 is a leetle old to be birthing your own babies...without medical intervention and someone else's genetic material. Also, as lovely as it is you adopted, not everyone can! Lot's and lot's of people who want to adopt and who would be wonderful parents are not seen as desirable by state agencies. (Ask Dan about how easy it is to adopt a kid if you aren't a straight, Christian couple.) Lot's and lot's of people I know who were interested in adoption, because 1.) it would help a child in need of a good home 2.) there are already too many people in the world, we shouldn't make more, were told they were undesirables by adoption agencies. So instead of adopting, they had biological children...who have great parents...while potential adoptees languish in foster care without parents (protected from those undesirables).
Maybe you shouldn't be so judgmental and defensive and bitchy, hmmm kay?
Um, Madashell became a parent just before her 42nd birthday, what makes you assume the child is biologically hers and "pushed it out her vagina"? You became a parent (to a 12 year old) and your vagina wasn't involved in the process. I'm not saying it's impossible, but 42 is a leetle old to be birthing your own babies...without medical intervention and someone else's genetic material. Also, as lovely as it is you adopted, not everyone can! Lot's and lot's of people who want to adopt and who would be wonderful parents are not seen as desirable by state agencies. (Ask Dan about how easy it is to adopt a kid if you aren't a straight, Christian couple.) Lot's and lot's of people I know who were interested in adoption, because 1.) it would help a child in need of a good home 2.) there are already too many people in the world, we shouldn't make more, were told they were undesirables by adoption agencies. So instead of adopting, they had biological children...who have great parents...while potential adoptees languish in foster care without parents (protected from those undesirables).
Maybe you shouldn't be so judgmental and defensive and bitchy, hmmm kay?
115
To clarify, I did in fact have my child via natural means, though if you must know, via C-section (long story and PLEASE let's not make this thread any more ridiculous by debating C-sections vs vaginal births).
To no children yada yada - you assume that because of the priority I give my role as a parent, I do not offer anything else to the world. I am a registered nurse - my work involves helping a person or two, here and there. My husband and I also do our part to help our community and extended family.
Wherever included in your and former tri state's posts any criticisms about thoughtless 'breeding' and the consequent abuse and neglect of children, I'm with you on that. Just keep in mind the 'minority' of us who aren't a part of such ideals is larger than you think.
PS To former tri state: Your profs (and now coworkers) must've had headaches reading your papers, with that grammar and spelling of yours.
To no children yada yada - you assume that because of the priority I give my role as a parent, I do not offer anything else to the world. I am a registered nurse - my work involves helping a person or two, here and there. My husband and I also do our part to help our community and extended family.
Wherever included in your and former tri state's posts any criticisms about thoughtless 'breeding' and the consequent abuse and neglect of children, I'm with you on that. Just keep in mind the 'minority' of us who aren't a part of such ideals is larger than you think.
PS To former tri state: Your profs (and now coworkers) must've had headaches reading your papers, with that grammar and spelling of yours.
116
@113:
There's no way in god's green earth that you're a scientist. Perhaps you mean social scientist? Or christian scientist?
A human being can put out a sustained 150-250w. Even if you're only capturing 20% of that, 20 people can generate 600-1000w. An Ipod uses a 12w external power supply. You know what an order of magnitude is? That's two of them.
There's no way in god's green earth that you're a scientist. Perhaps you mean social scientist? Or christian scientist?
Someone once told me it would take a 20 people to pedal a turbine to get enough juice to run an ipod.
A human being can put out a sustained 150-250w. Even if you're only capturing 20% of that, 20 people can generate 600-1000w. An Ipod uses a 12w external power supply. You know what an order of magnitude is? That's two of them.
117
yeah Madashell... I do proof my work better than my slog posts, but organic chemistry is very pictoral. You describe the same damn things over and over again, in a passive tense recycling the same words over and over again.
It's actually change the way I read and think in general. I skim way too much.
Besides, science writing is all passive tense. And Big Sven, I was skeptical of that stat too, especially when I was reading (I think in the slog) about some guy who invented a pedal powered computer. I'm not a physisist, I'm a synthetic chemist. We are trained to be analytical only when we have to. I might as well be a cook somedays. Do you know how fucking hard it is to make your drugs? Your food flavorings? Do you know how wasteful these processes are yet so essential to modern life, even when industrialy optimized.
I use a depressing amount of solvent on a daily basis.
It's actually change the way I read and think in general. I skim way too much.
Besides, science writing is all passive tense. And Big Sven, I was skeptical of that stat too, especially when I was reading (I think in the slog) about some guy who invented a pedal powered computer. I'm not a physisist, I'm a synthetic chemist. We are trained to be analytical only when we have to. I might as well be a cook somedays. Do you know how fucking hard it is to make your drugs? Your food flavorings? Do you know how wasteful these processes are yet so essential to modern life, even when industrialy optimized.
I use a depressing amount of solvent on a daily basis.
118
The ammonia thing is a depressing problem, and one of the "holy grail" projects in organic chemistry. The guy who comes up with a way to make ammonia in either a greener way, or replace the Haber Bosch process (no clue on the spelling) with a catalytic room temperature process stands to make a lot of money. Either way we are consuming way more fossil fuel than should be necessary.
Moral of the story. It's your right to have a child if you want them. It's also your right to own a hummer and/or a BMW. Adoption is most admirable. But maybe it's fair to say children are very adult indulgences, that require a lot of maintenance, and that the buyer should be aware of what they are getting. But don't ever say that having your own is a selfless act. I call bull shit. A healthy outlet for love yes/maybe, but a selfless act, no.
Moral of the story. It's your right to have a child if you want them. It's also your right to own a hummer and/or a BMW. Adoption is most admirable. But maybe it's fair to say children are very adult indulgences, that require a lot of maintenance, and that the buyer should be aware of what they are getting. But don't ever say that having your own is a selfless act. I call bull shit. A healthy outlet for love yes/maybe, but a selfless act, no.
119
fts@118: so there is a certain kind of whiny parent that wants everyone to pour pity on them for how tough their life is. And I can see where those grow tiring. But I don't think the majority of the parents in this thread are those types. We're just saying that it is hard but enjoyable work.
To extend your analogy, it would be like saying "my BMW needs an oil change over 1000 miles and a fresh coat of wax every weekend, but boy is it a great car." It doesn't say that you need to buy a BMW or should pity us for having to maintain our BMW. Because others- not you- said that we couldn't possibly really like our BMW and that we were just pretending after having purchased our BMW in reaction to societal forces.
To extend your analogy, it would be like saying "my BMW needs an oil change over 1000 miles and a fresh coat of wax every weekend, but boy is it a great car." It doesn't say that you need to buy a BMW or should pity us for having to maintain our BMW. Because others- not you- said that we couldn't possibly really like our BMW and that we were just pretending after having purchased our BMW in reaction to societal forces.
120
No, it's not in and of itself a "selfless act." I don't know where anyone is claiming that it is. Not me. Not Madashell. Not Big Sven.
That said, it is fulfilling and those of us who have children - those of us, that is, who are deliberate, and think it through, and wait until we're mature enough and economically and emotionally stable enough to take the plunge - know that there is nothing more important we can ever hope to achieve than to bring up our children right. Does that mean we have to withdraw from the "scene" a bit? Yes it does. Very young children need a lot of attention and support. (Those who decry the "selfishness" of this ought to think about how selfish it would be to deny this for very young kids.) It's more important than almost anything you'll ever achieve at work, and the families that have problems are the ones where the parents care more about their careers and what the neighbors think than the ones where the parents care about spending time with their kids.
Sorry, NBFMT, if you feel abandoned by your friends who have to take care of infants. They'll be back when the kids are bigger and it's not too much work for the grandparents or other babysitters to take care of them every once in a while - that is, if you're selfish you-used-to-be-cool-what-happened reaction wasn't so apparent that it cost you their friendship.
And Former TriState, it's not people like me who are breeding us to the tipping point. I can't help people who are intent on having as many babies as they can, or major religious figures like the pope who condemn all forms of birth control. But this is much more than an "indulgence." And NBFMT, yeah, stay at home dads are in the minority, but that's far from proving that most dads who play the traditional breadwinner role neither care about helping with the kids or just refuse to help as you allege. That happens and it sounds like it happened to you when you were a kid, but that's not the norm.
More...
That said, it is fulfilling and those of us who have children - those of us, that is, who are deliberate, and think it through, and wait until we're mature enough and economically and emotionally stable enough to take the plunge - know that there is nothing more important we can ever hope to achieve than to bring up our children right. Does that mean we have to withdraw from the "scene" a bit? Yes it does. Very young children need a lot of attention and support. (Those who decry the "selfishness" of this ought to think about how selfish it would be to deny this for very young kids.) It's more important than almost anything you'll ever achieve at work, and the families that have problems are the ones where the parents care more about their careers and what the neighbors think than the ones where the parents care about spending time with their kids.
Sorry, NBFMT, if you feel abandoned by your friends who have to take care of infants. They'll be back when the kids are bigger and it's not too much work for the grandparents or other babysitters to take care of them every once in a while - that is, if you're selfish you-used-to-be-cool-what-happened reaction wasn't so apparent that it cost you their friendship.
And Former TriState, it's not people like me who are breeding us to the tipping point. I can't help people who are intent on having as many babies as they can, or major religious figures like the pope who condemn all forms of birth control. But this is much more than an "indulgence." And NBFMT, yeah, stay at home dads are in the minority, but that's far from proving that most dads who play the traditional breadwinner role neither care about helping with the kids or just refuse to help as you allege. That happens and it sounds like it happened to you when you were a kid, but that's not the norm.
122
Nobabiesforme:
"I'm not childless. But then, I know you people don't count a parent/child relationship legitimate if the kid didn't come out of my vagina.
Just the fact that I touched a nerve proves there is truth to my argument. Have fun with your big "accomplishment." "
Jesus. You're hanging out with all the wrong heteros. Or none at all. And what's with this "You people" shit? l don't subscribe to your narrow fucking bullshit about legitimate/not legitimate. Get over yourself. The problem with a term like 'breeder' is that there must be an opposite label, the 'non-breeder', a term l don't think is any less an insult than 'breeder' is. Not all of us are Puritan, selfish assholes, any more so than gay parents are for wanting to conceive a child of their own. As a female, l would think you'd understand that. Yet you bash other mothers on this thread who clearly state they are willing and able to commit to the commitments they've signed up for. That's pretty fucking hypocritical.
"I'm not childless. But then, I know you people don't count a parent/child relationship legitimate if the kid didn't come out of my vagina.
Just the fact that I touched a nerve proves there is truth to my argument. Have fun with your big "accomplishment." "
Jesus. You're hanging out with all the wrong heteros. Or none at all. And what's with this "You people" shit? l don't subscribe to your narrow fucking bullshit about legitimate/not legitimate. Get over yourself. The problem with a term like 'breeder' is that there must be an opposite label, the 'non-breeder', a term l don't think is any less an insult than 'breeder' is. Not all of us are Puritan, selfish assholes, any more so than gay parents are for wanting to conceive a child of their own. As a female, l would think you'd understand that. Yet you bash other mothers on this thread who clearly state they are willing and able to commit to the commitments they've signed up for. That's pretty fucking hypocritical.
123
Ah, yes, l also meant to point out that Madashell mentioned a partner, but not gender. l must admit really hope her partner is a woman, and l would snicker for days if that were the case. Sure she's one o' them thar nasty breeders?
124
Meh. l should have read Madashell's response, that'll teach me to post buzzed. Woulda been funny, though.
125
It is entirely possible to say everything that was said in "A Letter from..." without being insulting and malicious--but that presumes a mature adult with relationship skills. Aside to smart attractive women: RUN!!!!
126
Not that the writer doesn't have some good points, but it sure seems like one of the ways he could possibly get his wife more interested in sex is if (and I'm inferring here) he spent more time on childcare duties. She spends so much time explaining the faces your kids make to you? I can see how that would be frustrating after a while, but it may also suggest that she's spending far more time with them than you are. Buying someone a gym membership or footing the bill for a treadmill, while financially generous, may not be as meaningful as sacrificing your own time and energy to make her job a little easier.
127
@126
Mallow. I get the feeling his anger can hide a lot of his true feelings towards his children. We also don't know how young or old they are. He also thinks they are being babied
" .... Once you're done describing said wacky face hopefully one of the kids will be in pseudo-peril and you can punctuate the conversation with a concerned look and a wobbly hurry. ..."
And yes, in his twisted way, he does love his kid, but it gets hidden underneath his anger
"I'll see my wonderful kids whenever I can, and I'll laugh at your fat, pseudo-depressed ass the whole time."
Basiclly one of the mothers that's a HR residance hall nightmare at a college and university.
I don't think it's just the sex, the sex is usually more of a barometer of what happens in the relationship. Sex alone doesn't make or break the relationship. Sex (or at least the attempt of sex) let's you know that there is a genuine interest in it. Honestly, its just reassuring to hear, I mean literaly, hear the desire for physical intimacy when things are logistically impossible at the moment. I wonder if this would work for overworked mothers and fathers ... just say/suggest that you want to have sex. At some point in the future, give a little sensual kiss, and go about your day and make life go on.
Mallow. I get the feeling his anger can hide a lot of his true feelings towards his children. We also don't know how young or old they are. He also thinks they are being babied
" .... Once you're done describing said wacky face hopefully one of the kids will be in pseudo-peril and you can punctuate the conversation with a concerned look and a wobbly hurry. ..."
And yes, in his twisted way, he does love his kid, but it gets hidden underneath his anger
"I'll see my wonderful kids whenever I can, and I'll laugh at your fat, pseudo-depressed ass the whole time."
Basiclly one of the mothers that's a HR residance hall nightmare at a college and university.
I don't think it's just the sex, the sex is usually more of a barometer of what happens in the relationship. Sex alone doesn't make or break the relationship. Sex (or at least the attempt of sex) let's you know that there is a genuine interest in it. Honestly, its just reassuring to hear, I mean literaly, hear the desire for physical intimacy when things are logistically impossible at the moment. I wonder if this would work for overworked mothers and fathers ... just say/suggest that you want to have sex. At some point in the future, give a little sensual kiss, and go about your day and make life go on.
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