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News & ArtsWednesday, April 8, 2009
Media / Religion Holy Crap
Posted by David Schmader on Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 9:34 AM
The new ad from the National Organization for Marriage:
It's shit like this that will make the entire month of June terrifying, as this kind of content-free, fill-in-the-blank-with-your-own-worst-fear fear-mongering all but dares righteous lunatics with guns to ward against the gathering storm by opening fire on any one of the nation's gay pride parades.
Ugh. Time to re-watch the awesome, terror-defusing video Dan posted last night...
4
Anyone remember the commercials regarding the Knight Initiative? Which passed with a 23 point margin? Or the Prop 8 ads? Which, while identical to the Knight Initiative, only passed with a 5 point margin? Or the ads of the early 90s, doom chords and short shorts galore?
How about archived print ads in support of Seattle Proposition 13 and Anita Bryant's initiative in CA?
If this ad is ugly, those must be grotesque.
Washington D.C.'s recognition of same sex marriage is the beginning of the end for this matter. The religious right will soon begin to attack someone else, the attacks will be sudden, incindiary and without warning. That's their way. The next victim is probably in their crosshairs... one or two more losses over gay marriage, and they'll begin anew with someone else.
How about archived print ads in support of Seattle Proposition 13 and Anita Bryant's initiative in CA?
If this ad is ugly, those must be grotesque.
Washington D.C.'s recognition of same sex marriage is the beginning of the end for this matter. The religious right will soon begin to attack someone else, the attacks will be sudden, incindiary and without warning. That's their way. The next victim is probably in their crosshairs... one or two more losses over gay marriage, and they'll begin anew with someone else.
5
Holy Crap is right! The ignorance is overwhelming, and their "logical" arguments hold absolutely no bearing.
8
There's nothing ugly about love, family, values, morality. It's about time, no more being on the defensive but as proactive and in your face as your side is.
10
How on earth is it going to affect their lives? How could they possibly say that their freedom is going to be taken away? Do these people have some sort of paranoia-based mental illness?
13
The Strangerconfirmation bias distorting your world again.
I think Obama's term will probably see more Tim McVeighs and Eric Rudolphs and Michael Griffins and Branch Davidians, like we did in the Clinton years. But still, some perspective and context would really steady your nerves.
I think Obama's term will probably see more Tim McVeighs and Eric Rudolphs and Michael Griffins and Branch Davidians, like we did in the Clinton years. But still, some perspective and context would really steady your nerves.
15
I see... and the pro-gay-marriage community will respond HOW?
Air-time can be bought, ads can be made.
Or everybody can sit around complaining they're being oppressed and point fingers.
If anything, these haters show initiative.
I look forward to seeing the gay-marriage side's response.
If there is one.
Air-time can be bought, ads can be made.
Or everybody can sit around complaining they're being oppressed and point fingers.
If anything, these haters show initiative.
I look forward to seeing the gay-marriage side's response.
If there is one.
16
Check out the outtakes for that commercial, lol.
Also at the same link (and below) is my debunking of the crap spewed in that ad. It's the same laundry list, by the way, that the haters ticked off in the legislative committee hearings for the new DP bill. Get used to these talking points and refuting them, because we'll be hearing them again and again an again...
More...
Also at the same link (and below) is my debunking of the crap spewed in that ad. It's the same laundry list, by the way, that the haters ticked off in the legislative committee hearings for the new DP bill. Get used to these talking points and refuting them, because we'll be hearing them again and again an again...
I'm a California doctor who must choose between my faith and my job...
This has nothing to do with marriage. Although she doesn't name the case she references, the California Supreme Court ruled last year that a scenario such as he describes would be in contempt of state non-discrimination law. These people are lamenting that they can no longer legally discriminate against gays in health care and related services.
I'm part of a NJ church group punished by the government because we can't support same-sex marriage...
The Ocean Grove Camp Meeting Association is not a church, as the ad actor misstates, but is a religious ministry. It owns "seaside land that includes a boardwalk pavilion. It obtained an exemption from state property tax for the land on the grounds that it was open for public use and access. Events such as weddings of any religion could be held in the pavilion by reservation. But when a lesbian couple sought to book the pavilion for a commitment ceremony, the nonprofit balked, saying this went against its religious beliefs. The court ruled against the nonprofit, not because gay rights trump religious rights but because public land has to be open to everyone or it's not public."
I'm a Massachusetts parent helplessly watching public schools teach my son that gay marriage is OK...
A federal judge verbally spanked David Parker for wasting precious court time and resources with this baseless lawsuit. Parker appealed to the US Supreme Court, who refused to review the case. Here is just a taste of what the federal judge said.
In summary, the court must dismiss plaintiffs' federal claims because this case is not distinguishable in any material respect from Brown v. Hot, Sexy and Safer Productions, 68 F.3d 525 (1st Cir. 1995). In Brown, the First Circuit held that the constitutional right of parents to raise their children does not include the right to restrict what a public school may teach their children and that teachings which contradict a parent's religious beliefs do not violate their First Amendment right to exercise their religion. [page 3]...
In essence, under the Constitution public schools are entitled to teach anything that is reasonably related to the goals of preparing students to become engaged and productive citizens in our democracy. Diversity is a hallmark of our nation. It is increasingly evident that our diversity includes differences in sexual orientation. Our nation's history includes a fundamental commitment to promoting mutual respect among citizens in our diverse nation that is manifest in the First Amendment's prohibitions on establishing an official religion and restricting the free exercise of religious beliefs on which plaintiffs base some of their federal claims. [page 4]
17
Just have an ad with a little girl sitting in a room hit by a spotlight and people in the darkness pointing fingers at her, "Your moms are dykes!" "You're going to burn in hell!" "You're going to grow up to be a dyke!" and other awful things.
18
I went to the website (I know, I know) to see the "stories" to the people featured in the commercial whose freedoms are being taken away, and I couldn't find them... I did find a pretty hilarious FAQ, though (Question #1 - Are you a bigot?).
19
@ 3 - I think they're all mysteriously misreading their 10 Commandments. Hey folks, there's a "NOT" in "Thou shalt not bear false witness" But then, anything goes when it's in the service of the Lord, right?
Jocelyn, I'll defer to you here: is there some "escape clause" in the Bible that makes it OK for Christians to lie like hell?
"Rainbow coalition"?!?!? I think I'm gonna be sick...
Jocelyn, I'll defer to you here: is there some "escape clause" in the Bible that makes it OK for Christians to lie like hell?
"Rainbow coalition"?!?!? I think I'm gonna be sick...
21
I did re-watch the Mike Gronstal video after this one. It made me feel better.
The anti-gay bigots simply don't understand yet. They've already lost. They're just shouting at the rain now.
The anti-gay bigots simply don't understand yet. They've already lost. They're just shouting at the rain now.
22
People of every creed, color, background are coming together as one to protect their families. We are the silent majority, we have been more than tolerant on this issue but the other side is never content with what they have achieved, the line must be drawn in a clear and firm way.
10 Teaching children in schools about homosexuality, professional being forced to choose between their values and their jobs, religious groups forced to close down the services they provide and on it goes. All thanks to the opening of the dangerous can of worms that is gay marriage.
10 Teaching children in schools about homosexuality, professional being forced to choose between their values and their jobs, religious groups forced to close down the services they provide and on it goes. All thanks to the opening of the dangerous can of worms that is gay marriage.
23
People of every creed, color, background are also coming together as one to promote marriage equality over the falsely modest who call themselves tolerant but can not be if they can't accept gay marriage.
Civil rights marches in only one direction, Loveschild, and it's against you.
Civil rights marches in only one direction, Loveschild, and it's against you.
24
Teachers are being force to choose between their jobs and their beliefs by having to teach children that Jewish and Christian people are equal!!!
26
That ad is hilarious! Comedy gold, even. It's like... I can see the casting call. And it's all, "Put the actors in button up shirts and plastic glasses. Show me serious--you're worried! YOUR RIGHTS ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY, SO MORE FURROWED BROWS YOU BITCHES."
29
Loveschild -- the examples they gave in this commercial (and that you cite @22) of freedoms being taken away are completely absurd (see @16).
I know you hate any comparison of homophobia to racism, but, just for a second, imagine if that doctor wanted to not treat someone because they were black (she's a professional being forced to choose between her values and her job!). Or if that NJ religious group wanted to deny the use of their public land that must be made open for all to two black people getting married. Or if people were complaining because schools weren't teaching that blacks marrying each other is icky.
Just try to imagine that, and you will understand how we see people like you when you try to argue against gay marriage.
I know you hate any comparison of homophobia to racism, but, just for a second, imagine if that doctor wanted to not treat someone because they were black (she's a professional being forced to choose between her values and her job!). Or if that NJ religious group wanted to deny the use of their public land that must be made open for all to two black people getting married. Or if people were complaining because schools weren't teaching that blacks marrying each other is icky.
Just try to imagine that, and you will understand how we see people like you when you try to argue against gay marriage.
31
i'm trying to think if this ad even appeals to christians... i mean, is it effective to it's target audience? as @16 tries, it's good to get the actual stories out there, so ads like this lose effectiveness when referring to them without providing any details. the details causes the ad to lose effectiveness.
i see may three types of people out there against gay marriage: some people are worried that they will lose freedoms, others think it is actually bad -- albeit spiritually -- for both families and the nation, while a third group just hates gay people.
i see may three types of people out there against gay marriage: some people are worried that they will lose freedoms, others think it is actually bad -- albeit spiritually -- for both families and the nation, while a third group just hates gay people.
32
I try to understand this mindset and I just *can't*. These people are awful, hateful, black-hearted bigots.
34
@ 31, it will definitely appeal to the Loveschild mindset. She is right when she implies that there are millions of them, although wrong if she thinks she's in anything but the most tenuous and shrinking majority. Hell, most white people thought separate but equal was just fine until they wised up, leaving the hardcore haters isolated. That is the destiny of these people, but it's got many years to go.
35
@27: I'm a big scary gay. I didn't realize I was supposed to be "coming" anywhere. What am I supposed to be doing? I thought I was supposed to be my usual happy self, not tearing down walls and throwing people around.
Gay Hulk... Smash?
Gay Hulk... Smash?
36
Of course, the people at whom this ad is targeted are already living in a state of perpetual fear: fear of their God in general; fear of doing something their God dislikes; fear their actions may result in sending them to Hell; fear that the government is going to come knocking down their door at any moment to take away their guns and bibles; fear that teh homos are going to be right behind the Gubamint SWAT teams to finish the job with a little group anal rape; fear of teh Muslims, of the Catholics, of the Unitarians, Hindus, Taoists, Atheists, and Buddhists; fear of the blacks, browns, yellows, and reds; fear, fear, fear. It's really the only way they know how to live, by basically being afraid of everything and everyone that doesn't fit into their extremely narrow geographic, ethnic, cultural, and socio-political-religious demographic.
They're like the characters in that old "Twilight Zone" episode, the one where everybody in a small neighborhood begins to turn on each other the minute their power goes out; their fear and paranoia over the potential threat of anything or anyone even slightly different from the way they perceive themselves drives their every action.
They've managed to maintain a paper-thin veneer of civility over this internalized rage and fear, but as the rest of society begins to move past them, and they begin to see their own tenuous grip on the culture increasingly slipping away, they're getting more and more desperate, more driven to action in a last-ditch effort to exert some sort of social relevance, and impose their will over the growing number of their fellow citizens who, frankly, are getting fed up with their Chicken Little "ZOMG! IF TEH GAYS MARRY, CIVILIZATION WILL END AND GOD WILL BE EXTREMELY ANGRY!" cries, particularly when it becomes increasingly clear to most sensible people with each passing day, and with every small step of progress, that their predictions of doom from above and chaos from below fail to come to pass.
The only unresolved question is: what do people who have been brought up to be afraid of EVERYTHING do,when nobody is afraid of THEM anymore?
More...
They're like the characters in that old "Twilight Zone" episode, the one where everybody in a small neighborhood begins to turn on each other the minute their power goes out; their fear and paranoia over the potential threat of anything or anyone even slightly different from the way they perceive themselves drives their every action.
They've managed to maintain a paper-thin veneer of civility over this internalized rage and fear, but as the rest of society begins to move past them, and they begin to see their own tenuous grip on the culture increasingly slipping away, they're getting more and more desperate, more driven to action in a last-ditch effort to exert some sort of social relevance, and impose their will over the growing number of their fellow citizens who, frankly, are getting fed up with their Chicken Little "ZOMG! IF TEH GAYS MARRY, CIVILIZATION WILL END AND GOD WILL BE EXTREMELY ANGRY!" cries, particularly when it becomes increasingly clear to most sensible people with each passing day, and with every small step of progress, that their predictions of doom from above and chaos from below fail to come to pass.
The only unresolved question is: what do people who have been brought up to be afraid of EVERYTHING do,when nobody is afraid of THEM anymore?
37
@19- The evangelical movement basically takes Jesus' death as a big "Get out of Hell free card." All you have to do is accept him as your personal saviour, and all your sins are redeemed. Then you can do whatever you want to whomever you want, and it's OK. All the stuff about "living a Christian lifestyle" is about community mores and control. They are completely immoral.
39
At last the lord has responded to the cries of the oopressed churches and provided vegeance. Churches who's long-suffering righteousness is now at an end, are in one state after another, at long last being allowed to deliver the sacrament of marriage to holy gay couples. For decades they have been denied their religious freedom to marry whom their god directed them to do so. But now no more! The unholy reign of the christianists who have so long denied the churches their right to marry whom they will is at an end. The lord is mighty.
40
@ 30 - I'm sorry, I should have said "big scary *non-self-hating* gays."
@ 35 - Baconstud, you obviously haven't gotten the memo...
@ 35 - Baconstud, you obviously haven't gotten the memo...
41
@31it's good to get the actual stories out there, so ads like this lose effectiveness when referring to them without providing any details. the details causes the ad to lose effectiveness.
But most people won't get the details. This ad is all about scaring the ininvolved and uncommitted while rallying the bigoted loveschild types. If I run a big unexplained headline that says "Gitner sleeps with Goats" and then run a story two days later that explains she was camping with goatherds, most people are going to remember the goat fucking rumor.
But most people won't get the details. This ad is all about scaring the ininvolved and uncommitted while rallying the bigoted loveschild types. If I run a big unexplained headline that says "Gitner sleeps with Goats" and then run a story two days later that explains she was camping with goatherds, most people are going to remember the goat fucking rumor.
42
If Loveschild is part of the "Silent Majority", why does she keep talking?
I'm wondering what the next bugaboo the haters will come up with next. As the Senator said, they've already lost, it's just a matter of time. So in Twenty years, when it is as easy to be gay as it is to be black [still tough, but you've got the law on your side], who will they target? Because they have to target some one - their hate is all they have.
I'm wondering what the next bugaboo the haters will come up with next. As the Senator said, they've already lost, it's just a matter of time. So in Twenty years, when it is as easy to be gay as it is to be black [still tough, but you've got the law on your side], who will they target? Because they have to target some one - their hate is all they have.
43
@38: Dancing is not quite my forte, but if we're picturing a giant color-coordinated Hulk dancing along to, say, X or something, then I'm game on that one!
@40: Want for me to menace? I can menace real good. I also do birthday parties, carrying folks around for fun.
!! Maybe I can go enlist a couple of people from a gay judo class and carry them around like gayjudorockets? Pew pew pew!
@40: Want for me to menace? I can menace real good. I also do birthday parties, carrying folks around for fun.
!! Maybe I can go enlist a couple of people from a gay judo class and carry them around like gayjudorockets? Pew pew pew!
44
The analogies to racial equality are demonstrative. Nixon and Reagan used the 60's civil rights laws in their "Southern Strategy" to hijack the party and get 20 years of Republican hegemony. But conservatives were wrong then, they're wrong now, and just as history eventually rolled over the Southern Strategy, so too will they lose this war in the end.
45
This thing about religion vs job bugs me. Is there not an argument to be made here?
Christian scientists are definitely permitted to go to medical school. So if doctors are permitted to act on the basis of faith, then couldn't Christian Scientists go to med school, become doctors, then basically start prescribing 'more prayer' for everything? Does that mean they have to choose between their religion and their job?
Christian scientists are definitely permitted to go to medical school. So if doctors are permitted to act on the basis of faith, then couldn't Christian Scientists go to med school, become doctors, then basically start prescribing 'more prayer' for everything? Does that mean they have to choose between their religion and their job?
46
I know this has probably been pointed out but I love the use of Orwellian double speak in these ads. They take the concept of freedom and flip it on it's head, so by granting gays the freedom to marry you are taking away the freedom of bigots to discriminate against them. The name Loveschild is another example; take the most aggressive and fearful views and attach them to the idea of love, God's love, which is actually disdain as it's described in the Bible (of course if you worship God and acknowledge you're a piece of shit then he will love you unconditionally). Honesty doesn't sell when you're a shrill, fearful, hateful monster, so dress your hate up in the language of tolerance and then you're just another peaceful warrior for freedom and diversity. Or better yet, do what @39 did and say the whole gay rights movement is a plan by an invisible and imaginary monster to corrupt the foundation of the oh-so righteous Christian church. Invisible monsters and warped propaganda, those are the building blocks of the values movement, you would think the righteous could rely on honest, clear statements to make their case.
47
Re. Loveschild: Given that this person's stopped even trying to pretend that (s)he's doing anything other than regurgitating the talking points of anti-gay propaganda, is there any particular reason that the designation TROLL is not applied and the feeding thereof stopped accordingly?
49
Not only is this disgusting, it is completely fake. None of those people have suffered the "damage" they are claiming -- they are all actors. You can check out their audition tapes on youtube and see individual actors claim to be from different states and hold different professions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRjVDZxho…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwqNFBt33…
Of course, it makes sense that they'd have to pay people to spew this garbage -- they probably couldn't find a single actual person with a single verifiable claim of being harmed by gay marriage in any way at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRjVDZxho…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwqNFBt33…
Of course, it makes sense that they'd have to pay people to spew this garbage -- they probably couldn't find a single actual person with a single verifiable claim of being harmed by gay marriage in any way at all.
50
Baconcat, come join the Army of Mutant Gays to overthrow all of Christianity with gay marriage, stylish clothes, and fabulous decorating sense...after that, we'll all do Sunday brunch!
51
'There is a storm gathering. The clouds are dark and the winds are strong, and I am afraid.'
Was this written by a twelve year old?
Was this written by a twelve year old?
54
Well, it does say in the ad that they are actors..."The stories these actors are telling are based on real incidents. Find out more at www.nationformarriage.org" Which, is kind of ridiculous...
It's also really not fair to attack Christianity in general as there are many Christian denominations and people that are completely in support of same sex marriage and equal rights as well as the violence and hatred that people claim comes from their religion. We have to acknowledge that there are many Christians who are allies in this, and there are many who may become allies if we manage to have conversations and connect with those who are opposed, instead of shutting them out.
It's also really not fair to attack Christianity in general as there are many Christian denominations and people that are completely in support of same sex marriage and equal rights as well as the violence and hatred that people claim comes from their religion. We have to acknowledge that there are many Christians who are allies in this, and there are many who may become allies if we manage to have conversations and connect with those who are opposed, instead of shutting them out.
57
God damn it, Loveschild. I have had it up to here with this "protecting families" crap. Have you ever actually talked to someone who grew up in a gay family? Want to? I did. I was reared by two lesbians in the bad old days, when they had to stay in the closet. This is probably what you think of as the way things should be, but they went in fear of their jobs, their freedom, losing custody of me, all manner of horrible insult could have been visited on them simply because they loved one another. They could not marry.
Because they could not marry, eventually, the strain of living a lie was too much for my mother, and she married basically the first man who asked her. My drunken, child-molesting, unemployed worthless asshole late stepfather, may he rest in peace.
All the time I was growing up, I thought they hated kids, because I wasn't allowed to bring other kids over to the house or go on overnight visits to other kids' houses. It was only a few years ago that I realized why. Kids talk, and had I mentioned, quite innocently, that my mother lived with another woman (I had no idea there was any sexual component, I never saw anything inappropriate for a child's eyes), they could have been fired from their jobs, I could have been taken away from them and put in a foster home, they could even, in those days, have been put in jail or a mental hospital. All these things had happened to some of their friends.
I didn't even know they were gay. As I said, I never saw anything inappropriate - I don't think kids should see anything beyond a kiss between their parents in any case, gay or straight. It wasn't until we were living a more "normal" life with my stepfather that I experienced the unique joy that is child molestation.
My life would have been very different had they been able to marry. For one thing, I'd have almost certainly gone to college; my godmother (as I always called my mother's girlfriend) had already started a college fund for me. That went by the wayside when mom married my stepfather (when I was 11), as he was in debt and drinking every penny she made, and was scornful of education and bookishness in general.
What did I get from being reared by lesbians that was so different from what it would have been had my godmother been a man, instead? The only difference I can point to is that I never learned to regard women as lesser beings with more limited scopes in their lives. The women I knew were bank executives, they fixed their own cars, they built fences, they were intelligent, independent persons not dependent on male beneficience. And that, I think, is what really gets a conservative's goat; that the children of gay couples learn that there is more than one mold that they can fit into.
My life would have been so different had my mother been able to marry her girlfriend, and nearly everything about it would have been better.
More...
Because they could not marry, eventually, the strain of living a lie was too much for my mother, and she married basically the first man who asked her. My drunken, child-molesting, unemployed worthless asshole late stepfather, may he rest in peace.
All the time I was growing up, I thought they hated kids, because I wasn't allowed to bring other kids over to the house or go on overnight visits to other kids' houses. It was only a few years ago that I realized why. Kids talk, and had I mentioned, quite innocently, that my mother lived with another woman (I had no idea there was any sexual component, I never saw anything inappropriate for a child's eyes), they could have been fired from their jobs, I could have been taken away from them and put in a foster home, they could even, in those days, have been put in jail or a mental hospital. All these things had happened to some of their friends.
I didn't even know they were gay. As I said, I never saw anything inappropriate - I don't think kids should see anything beyond a kiss between their parents in any case, gay or straight. It wasn't until we were living a more "normal" life with my stepfather that I experienced the unique joy that is child molestation.
My life would have been very different had they been able to marry. For one thing, I'd have almost certainly gone to college; my godmother (as I always called my mother's girlfriend) had already started a college fund for me. That went by the wayside when mom married my stepfather (when I was 11), as he was in debt and drinking every penny she made, and was scornful of education and bookishness in general.
What did I get from being reared by lesbians that was so different from what it would have been had my godmother been a man, instead? The only difference I can point to is that I never learned to regard women as lesser beings with more limited scopes in their lives. The women I knew were bank executives, they fixed their own cars, they built fences, they were intelligent, independent persons not dependent on male beneficience. And that, I think, is what really gets a conservative's goat; that the children of gay couples learn that there is more than one mold that they can fit into.
My life would have been so different had my mother been able to marry her girlfriend, and nearly everything about it would have been better.
58
54, they are actors, telling misleading out of context snippets, edited to give false impressions.
59
@58, I know they are actors, but I believe someone earlier seemed surprised, despite the fact that it does indeed say it during the thing. Which I think they have to. I also agree completely that they are edited to give false impressions, and the stories are so corrupted and out of context that the message that they are sending is clearly an attempt at causing fear in those who are still undecided on their beliefs.
61
@52 & 49: I'm guessing they had a call in church bulletins and that none of these are professional actors. If they WERE and they took this gig without really believing this crap, I'd want to kick their asses. Principals, people. If there's an industry where gay brothers & sisters has real meaning it's the performing arts.
65
I just want to know who this Maggie Gallagher bitch thinks she is. I just find it amazing that after taking money from the Bush Administration to write piles drivel about their super awesome "marriage policy" (you know, without telling her readers who paid for it) and basically making herself look like a fucking hack (even pissing off Bill O'Reilly), someone thinks she has the integrity to run NOM. This is woman is a syndicated columnist nationwide, her articles have been in The New York Times, Newsday and countless other papers, touting her expertise on all things marriage to the masses, and now this shit. Bitch must be stopped.
67
Audition tapes --at first, I doubted that they were real, seeing as the first three actors didn't seem familiar from the ad.
Well, the audition tapes appear to be real. The woman who appears 5 seconds into the ad " and I am afraid" is in Audition Part 2, at 1:30.
Well, the audition tapes appear to be real. The woman who appears 5 seconds into the ad " and I am afraid" is in Audition Part 2, at 1:30.
68
I'm ashamed to be strait with people like this making TV commercials. There is no epic battle for strait people, 2 gay boys getting married doesn't impact my life in the slightest. Anyone who thinks it does is obviously mentally challenged and I will gladly provide a free 10 minute therapy session, with extended question and answer sections, to anyone who thinks it does.
70
@57 - THANK YOU, and I'm sorry you had such a hellish experience in your "normal" family once your mother chose an "appropriate" partner.
I would genuinely be interested to hear The Troll's response to your story.
I would genuinely be interested to hear The Troll's response to your story.
71
Geni, that was beautiful. Thank you so much for posting. I'm sorry for what happened in your family, but I'm so glad your godmother was a part of your life.
72
@ 22 - You say "We are the silent majority, we have been more than tolerant on this issue.." Could you explain what you mean by that, please? Could you give us some concrete examples of how you and those like you have been "more than tolerant" of same-sex couples who want the same legal rights and protections that you currently enjoy? Were any of these tolerances exhibited to Matthew Shepard, for instance?
You also say ".. but the other side is never content with what they have achieved.." First, I'd like to say that that is, word for word, exactly what my bigoted racist father would say when he would see black people on tv commercials in the 70's. "They just have to get into everything, don't they? They're never content..." It made no sense to me then and it makes no sense to me now. Could you tell us, please, with what are the gay folks supposed to be content? The fact that they still can't serve openly in the military? The fact that they still can't legally marry one another in most states? The fact that gay-bashing is alive and well and on-going? What exactly are these gay laurels that they're supposed to be resting on, anyhow? I'm a straight woman, and I want to know.
Do please tell us. You seem to be the one with all the answers here. Please, reach down into that bottomless well of brotherly love you have for all mankind (as a good Christian you're supposed to have that, right?) and pull out some enlightenment for us, the kind that will make it alright to keep discriminating against your brothers and sisters in the name of Your God.
You also say ".. but the other side is never content with what they have achieved.." First, I'd like to say that that is, word for word, exactly what my bigoted racist father would say when he would see black people on tv commercials in the 70's. "They just have to get into everything, don't they? They're never content..." It made no sense to me then and it makes no sense to me now. Could you tell us, please, with what are the gay folks supposed to be content? The fact that they still can't serve openly in the military? The fact that they still can't legally marry one another in most states? The fact that gay-bashing is alive and well and on-going? What exactly are these gay laurels that they're supposed to be resting on, anyhow? I'm a straight woman, and I want to know.
Do please tell us. You seem to be the one with all the answers here. Please, reach down into that bottomless well of brotherly love you have for all mankind (as a good Christian you're supposed to have that, right?) and pull out some enlightenment for us, the kind that will make it alright to keep discriminating against your brothers and sisters in the name of Your God.
73
73 "Could you tell us, please, with what are the gay folks supposed to be content?"
Civil unions, repeal of sodomy laws you know the liberties that they enjoy here that were they wouldn't in other lands. That's the tolerance we the silent majority have extended to them only to be paid with having them call us bigots, intruding on our schools to teach our children about homosexuality, intimidation of houses of worship, the grabbing of our (the people's)commercial airways and media to promote their sexual conduct, forcing the public approval and celebration of their unions on our society through the dismantling of the institution of marriage they seek. Need more?
Civil unions, repeal of sodomy laws you know the liberties that they enjoy here that were they wouldn't in other lands. That's the tolerance we the silent majority have extended to them only to be paid with having them call us bigots, intruding on our schools to teach our children about homosexuality, intimidation of houses of worship, the grabbing of our (the people's)commercial airways and media to promote their sexual conduct, forcing the public approval and celebration of their unions on our society through the dismantling of the institution of marriage they seek. Need more?
74
@ 65 You have to read this chicks wikipedia page! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maggie_Gall… Whomever got a hold of it, thank you, the chuckle made my day!
75
@ 73 Lovechild: you're missing two key words: "equal rights." Gays and lesbians should expect no less than the same rights we straight folk share - and should not stop until this is achieved. This is the "more" you're looking for. Got it?
The argument you serve here doesn't fly, I'm afraid. The "grabbing of commercial airwaves and media to promote their sexual conduct" is no different than the cramming of straight couple, nuclear-family, white, Christian-assumed archetypes in all forms of Western media for centuries. The gay agenda you "tolerate" is a sign of the times that more and more (dare I say a *majority*?!) of Americans not only "tolerate" but either embrace wholeheartedly or are just over misconceptions of gays and lesbians and just see parallels with themselves that they just want to find a good job, a family and/or good friends, places to eat and drink on the weekends, and so on. Y'know, "American Dream" kind of stuff.
They're not "forcing" anything except the insistence to enjoy the same liberties everyone else in our country enjoys. If the shoe was on the other foot, wouldn't you want the same thing, lovechild?!
The argument you serve here doesn't fly, I'm afraid. The "grabbing of commercial airwaves and media to promote their sexual conduct" is no different than the cramming of straight couple, nuclear-family, white, Christian-assumed archetypes in all forms of Western media for centuries. The gay agenda you "tolerate" is a sign of the times that more and more (dare I say a *majority*?!) of Americans not only "tolerate" but either embrace wholeheartedly or are just over misconceptions of gays and lesbians and just see parallels with themselves that they just want to find a good job, a family and/or good friends, places to eat and drink on the weekends, and so on. Y'know, "American Dream" kind of stuff.
They're not "forcing" anything except the insistence to enjoy the same liberties everyone else in our country enjoys. If the shoe was on the other foot, wouldn't you want the same thing, lovechild?!
77
My apologize to all. Many of you have legitimate beefs with the Christian faith. I am sorry that the gospel is being used to support discrimination. One of you posted that as followers of Christ, we get a get out of jail card. It isn't true, we have to give an answer for every cruel and inhumane thing we do. We will have to answer for how instead of being known for love and caring for the poor, needy, and oppressed, we decided it was our job to play judge. Some will call me a blasphemer, but I have to listen to my heart. My heart tells me to apologize. I am sorry.
My apologize to all. Many of you have legitimate beefs with the Christian faith. I am sorry that the gospel is being used to support discrimination. One of you posted that as followers of Christ, we get a get out of jail card. It isn't true, we have to give an answer for every cruel and inhumane thing we do. We will have to answer for how instead of being known for love and caring for the poor, needy, and oppressed, we decided it was our job to play judge. Some will call me a blasphemer, but I have to listen to my heart. My heart tells me to apologize. I am sorry.
79
Kim, as far as I'm concerned you have nothing to apologize for.
Loveschild, I dare you to answer Geni @ 57. Remember how you called some of us cowards? Show us how big and brave you are and answer Geni @ 57.
Loveschild, I dare you to answer Geni @ 57. Remember how you called some of us cowards? Show us how big and brave you are and answer Geni @ 57.
80
If these people are actors, they need to be called out as such. If they are real people, they need to be investigated by grassroots groups to find out anything dirty on them, and then that dirt should be aired. There's sure to be something, because only whackjobs would say stuff like that.
If these people are actors, they need to be called out as such. If they are real people, they need to be investigated by grassroots groups to find out anything dirty on them, and then that dirt should be aired. There's sure to be something, because only whackjobs would say stuff like that.
81
@73: Loveschild, you are a sickening person. You are no different than the people who told your parents and grandparents to move to the back of the bus, drink at a separate water fountain and keep out of white schools. No different at all.
Please take what your side has deigned to give homosexuals and shove it up your ass.
You have no redeeming value and I guarantee you will have a rude awakening upon your death.
Please take what your side has deigned to give homosexuals and shove it up your ass.
You have no redeeming value and I guarantee you will have a rude awakening upon your death.
82
I don't know if this has been posted yet. Please forgive, if it has been.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YGe8DwBs…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YGe8DwBs…
84
57 I'm sorry for not noticing your comment earlier please forgive me for that.
As for your tragic upbringing and having been the victim of child molesting I totally agree with you on that, no kid should ever go through what you went through, I sincerely hope the man who did this to you is in jail and that you have received the professional counseling a victim of this type of crime deserves to have. Having said that please let me ask you where was your biological father through all of this?
I'm asking because as much as you stated that your life would've been different if your mother had stayed in cohabitation with another woman I can see how the same or better would have been (for you) had your mother decided to stay with your biological father. Please help me get a better picture, I don't want to seem to be insensitive to your story but I don't fully understand.
As for your tragic upbringing and having been the victim of child molesting I totally agree with you on that, no kid should ever go through what you went through, I sincerely hope the man who did this to you is in jail and that you have received the professional counseling a victim of this type of crime deserves to have. Having said that please let me ask you where was your biological father through all of this?
I'm asking because as much as you stated that your life would've been different if your mother had stayed in cohabitation with another woman I can see how the same or better would have been (for you) had your mother decided to stay with your biological father. Please help me get a better picture, I don't want to seem to be insensitive to your story but I don't fully understand.
85
I know it's old, but this is what Maggie the bigot had to say back in January about gay rights not being worthy of equal protection as race or religion. If I can't refuse to hire a muslim, you can't refuse to serve my gay cousin. Suck on that, fuckers.
http://www.nationformarriage.org/site/ap…
http://www.nationformarriage.org/site/ap…
87
Maggie Gallagher said on hardball all the claims made on the new NOM video spot can be found on the NOM website, but I can't seem to navigate my way to where they listed the details of their claims. Anyone else?
I remember hearing on the debate about a Catholic adoption agency losing its license due to its refusal to adopt to gay couples. Can anyone explain to me how this sort of discrimination is different from, say, refusing to adopt to miscegenated parents, or atheist parents?
And apparently, a Methodist church lost is tax-except status which relied on its willingness to rent beachfront property (including a pavilion intended for marriages) to the public, and it refused to do so to a gay couple celebrating a civil union. How is this different from refusing to rent to, say, a Mormon couple or a pair of Jehovah's Witnesses?
Gallagher also mentioned she didn't want her children to learn in school that gay marriages are acceptable, nor to be pegged with the stigma of bigotry when discriminating against gays. Is there ANY social minority against which one can discriminate without engaging in bigotry? Is there anyone at all who deserve more rights than the rest? Or fewer?
And couldn't she just tell her kids that though Gay Marriage is legal in this fine land, it's forbidden in her faith, just as Jews cannot eat pork or shellfish, and Hindi are forbidden from beef?
Loveschild, (I'm beginning to wonder why I regard you at all) I still do not understand how legitimization of gay marriage is going to, as you put it, *dismantle the institution of marriage* or frankly, harm it in any way. But in response to your question ("Need more?"), yes. Once gays can marry, there's a a whole wishlist including (but not limited to):
~ Equal acceptance of gays in the military.
~ Normalization of gay couples in society across the nation.
~ While we're at it, absolute gender equality across the board. (Equal pay for equal jobs, women in military combat positions and so on).
~ We're on a roll. Let's throw in equal rights for everyone who is transgender, or of any atypical gender identification. This includes those who don't agree with their XX or XY birth assignment, and all those folks who are fancy things like XXY, XYY, XY female or whatever.
~ How about complete normalization of all fringe ethnic groups, such as nationalized Native American tribes (those that are US citizens).
~ Complete social normalization of fringe Abrahamic faiths, no matter how much you disagree with their interpretations of the Lord's word.
~ Let's keep going and normalize the heathens, pagans, Wiccans (including self-proclaimed witches) and yes, even La Veyen Satanists; provide them with military chaplains, tax-exempt status and qualification for "faith-based" benefits, just like the 700 club.
~ And very last (because you guys statistically seem to hate us more than all of the above groups, including fringe radicals) social normalization of agnostics and atheists.
That's my list for the moment, but my ultimate goal: Make this fine country the individualist-tolerant plurality it should have been all this time.
None of these questions are rhetorical, incidentally. Please, enlighten me.
More...
I remember hearing on the debate about a Catholic adoption agency losing its license due to its refusal to adopt to gay couples. Can anyone explain to me how this sort of discrimination is different from, say, refusing to adopt to miscegenated parents, or atheist parents?
And apparently, a Methodist church lost is tax-except status which relied on its willingness to rent beachfront property (including a pavilion intended for marriages) to the public, and it refused to do so to a gay couple celebrating a civil union. How is this different from refusing to rent to, say, a Mormon couple or a pair of Jehovah's Witnesses?
Gallagher also mentioned she didn't want her children to learn in school that gay marriages are acceptable, nor to be pegged with the stigma of bigotry when discriminating against gays. Is there ANY social minority against which one can discriminate without engaging in bigotry? Is there anyone at all who deserve more rights than the rest? Or fewer?
And couldn't she just tell her kids that though Gay Marriage is legal in this fine land, it's forbidden in her faith, just as Jews cannot eat pork or shellfish, and Hindi are forbidden from beef?
Loveschild, (I'm beginning to wonder why I regard you at all) I still do not understand how legitimization of gay marriage is going to, as you put it, *dismantle the institution of marriage* or frankly, harm it in any way. But in response to your question ("Need more?"), yes. Once gays can marry, there's a a whole wishlist including (but not limited to):
~ Equal acceptance of gays in the military.
~ Normalization of gay couples in society across the nation.
~ While we're at it, absolute gender equality across the board. (Equal pay for equal jobs, women in military combat positions and so on).
~ We're on a roll. Let's throw in equal rights for everyone who is transgender, or of any atypical gender identification. This includes those who don't agree with their XX or XY birth assignment, and all those folks who are fancy things like XXY, XYY, XY female or whatever.
~ How about complete normalization of all fringe ethnic groups, such as nationalized Native American tribes (those that are US citizens).
~ Complete social normalization of fringe Abrahamic faiths, no matter how much you disagree with their interpretations of the Lord's word.
~ Let's keep going and normalize the heathens, pagans, Wiccans (including self-proclaimed witches) and yes, even La Veyen Satanists; provide them with military chaplains, tax-exempt status and qualification for "faith-based" benefits, just like the 700 club.
~ And very last (because you guys statistically seem to hate us more than all of the above groups, including fringe radicals) social normalization of agnostics and atheists.
That's my list for the moment, but my ultimate goal: Make this fine country the individualist-tolerant plurality it should have been all this time.
None of these questions are rhetorical, incidentally. Please, enlighten me.
88
Y'know I missed one that's kinda relevant:
~ equal rights and and normalization into society of those folks who engage safely and consensually (key elements, there) in any kind of sexual kink regardless of how deviant it may seem to the mainstream. This includes the BDSM crowd, roleplayers and even those funny, funny furries. Groups, I should mention, that have been, on occasion, denied custody of their own children based merely on what had been searched and seized from their private toy boxes.
As someone who lives my very own special kind of alternative lifestyle, I've become fucking tired of our country's superfluous insistence on conformity.
U.
~ equal rights and and normalization into society of those folks who engage safely and consensually (key elements, there) in any kind of sexual kink regardless of how deviant it may seem to the mainstream. This includes the BDSM crowd, roleplayers and even those funny, funny furries. Groups, I should mention, that have been, on occasion, denied custody of their own children based merely on what had been searched and seized from their private toy boxes.
As someone who lives my very own special kind of alternative lifestyle, I've become fucking tired of our country's superfluous insistence on conformity.
U.
89
Dear Lovechild,
You have given Gays NOTHING! We have had to fight tooth and nail to get what we have. You and others who oppose gay marriage are the same people who fought against civil unions and the repeal of sodomy laws. Your "tolerance" is worthless because its not tolerance.
If just once in these posts you came up with something that actually seemed to be honestly thought out instead of just regurgitated from your religious masters, I might have some respect for your views.
You have given Gays NOTHING! We have had to fight tooth and nail to get what we have. You and others who oppose gay marriage are the same people who fought against civil unions and the repeal of sodomy laws. Your "tolerance" is worthless because its not tolerance.
If just once in these posts you came up with something that actually seemed to be honestly thought out instead of just regurgitated from your religious masters, I might have some respect for your views.
90
Here's Wikipedia's take on these "people:"
"The Borg manifest as cybernetically enhanced humanoid drones of multiple species, organized as an interconnected collective, the decisions of which are made by a hive mind. The Borg inhabit a vast region of space in the Delta Quadrant of the galaxy, possessing hundreds of vessels and having conquered thousands of systems."
"They operate solely toward the fulfilling of one purpose: to 'add the biological and technological distinctiveness of other species to their own' in pursuit of [lower taxes and an extreme right wing social agenda]. This is achieved through forced assimilation, a process which transforms individuals and technology into Borg, enhancing, and simultaneously controlling, individuals by implanting or appending synthetic components."
"The Borg manifest as cybernetically enhanced humanoid drones of multiple species, organized as an interconnected collective, the decisions of which are made by a hive mind. The Borg inhabit a vast region of space in the Delta Quadrant of the galaxy, possessing hundreds of vessels and having conquered thousands of systems."
"They operate solely toward the fulfilling of one purpose: to 'add the biological and technological distinctiveness of other species to their own' in pursuit of [lower taxes and an extreme right wing social agenda]. This is achieved through forced assimilation, a process which transforms individuals and technology into Borg, enhancing, and simultaneously controlling, individuals by implanting or appending synthetic components."
91
@84 - my biological father chose not to be involved in my life, because he decided the six kids he had with my mother were too many (I'm the youngest). He took off when I was six weeks old and never contributed a dime to my upbringing. I assure you, had my parents stayed together, my life would not have been anywhere near what it could have been had my mother been allowed to marry the partner who truly loved and cherished her; my biofather is a middle school dropout who worked as a janitor, drank heavily, and partied incessantly. My godmother, on the other hand, was a bank executive who took me to Mass, encouraged me in my studies, and still considers me the nearest thing she ever had to a daughter.
This heterosexist bigotry about how children must have parents with non-matching genitalia is just insanity to me. Children need adults who care about them and care for them. They need healthy role models of all types. Over-obsessing about the sexuality, gender, etc., of a child's role models is crazy; children have only the most cursory interest in sexuality before puberty anyway. If children know their parents love them and love one another, why do we have to obsess over anything else? A child reared by lesbians can have great male role models in their uncles, their mothers' friends, their granddads, and the same goes for a child reared by gay men.
I went to a Valentines' dinner put on by a coalition of gay families a few years ago. Nearly everyone brought their young kids. Most of those kids were adopted or fostered, and THEY WERE THE THE KIDS NO ONE ELSE WANTED. It brought tears to my eyes to see those formerly unwanted kids, kids with all kinds of physical and emotional hardships, in loving, caring, normal families. I HATEhateHATE it when people claim to be pro-family without ever thinking about those families, or families like mine. Family should not have one narrow, closed definition. Family should be defined by love, not by gender or by gender roles.
More...
This heterosexist bigotry about how children must have parents with non-matching genitalia is just insanity to me. Children need adults who care about them and care for them. They need healthy role models of all types. Over-obsessing about the sexuality, gender, etc., of a child's role models is crazy; children have only the most cursory interest in sexuality before puberty anyway. If children know their parents love them and love one another, why do we have to obsess over anything else? A child reared by lesbians can have great male role models in their uncles, their mothers' friends, their granddads, and the same goes for a child reared by gay men.
I went to a Valentines' dinner put on by a coalition of gay families a few years ago. Nearly everyone brought their young kids. Most of those kids were adopted or fostered, and THEY WERE THE THE KIDS NO ONE ELSE WANTED. It brought tears to my eyes to see those formerly unwanted kids, kids with all kinds of physical and emotional hardships, in loving, caring, normal families. I HATEhateHATE it when people claim to be pro-family without ever thinking about those families, or families like mine. Family should not have one narrow, closed definition. Family should be defined by love, not by gender or by gender roles.
93
Geni -
You don't understand. For the anti-gay religious fundamentalist, the needs of hypothetical children outweigh the needs of actual children here on Earth. That is why they talk so much about "saving the world for the children" but talk so little about stories like yours, or about adopted kids who have been given loving homes by gay couples. The real world has a way of humiliating our most comforting illusions, and so it must be dismissed.
After all, hypothetical children are so much better in so many ways. They are angelic Hummelware fantasies, unchanging, fragile, pure, to be sheltered in a dusty curio cabinet where they can be mooned over as consistently adorable possessions that mirror a world view of similar unchanging simplicity.
Real children have complicated needs and occasionally horrible attitudes. They can be cruel, they can love people who haven't earned itand they almost never behave or turn out the way we would have personally chosen for them. They are unpredictable, and that is what fundamentalists hate most of all.
Loving an idealization (of families, of marriage, of children) is really just a way of loving yourself. And fundamentalists love themselves a lot more than they love you, or any lonely kid who might be better off with couple of gay parents. It's a waste of time to ask them to put someone else's needs first.
You don't understand. For the anti-gay religious fundamentalist, the needs of hypothetical children outweigh the needs of actual children here on Earth. That is why they talk so much about "saving the world for the children" but talk so little about stories like yours, or about adopted kids who have been given loving homes by gay couples. The real world has a way of humiliating our most comforting illusions, and so it must be dismissed.
After all, hypothetical children are so much better in so many ways. They are angelic Hummelware fantasies, unchanging, fragile, pure, to be sheltered in a dusty curio cabinet where they can be mooned over as consistently adorable possessions that mirror a world view of similar unchanging simplicity.
Real children have complicated needs and occasionally horrible attitudes. They can be cruel, they can love people who haven't earned itand they almost never behave or turn out the way we would have personally chosen for them. They are unpredictable, and that is what fundamentalists hate most of all.
Loving an idealization (of families, of marriage, of children) is really just a way of loving yourself. And fundamentalists love themselves a lot more than they love you, or any lonely kid who might be better off with couple of gay parents. It's a waste of time to ask them to put someone else's needs first.
94
Wow, Yeek. That was awesomely well put. It not only explains their desperation concerning gay marriage, but also regarding the abortion issue; so long as all those little zygotes are unborn, they're already ideal babies who will grow into ideal children.
That's like Blood on the Rooftops scary.
That's like Blood on the Rooftops scary.
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