Slog
News & ArtsWednesday, April 8, 2009
Religion Bearing False Witness Is a Sin, Right?
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Apr 8, 2009 at 11:47 AM
It's one of the original ones, isn't it? One of top ten? So if the Christian bigots behind the National Organization for Marriage and this hateful ad can't prove that these statements are factual...
"I'm a California doctor who must choose between my faith and my job.""I'm part of a New Jersey church group punished by the government because we can't support same-sex marriage."
"I am a Massachusetts parent helplessly watching public schools teach my son that gay marriage is OK."
...they should be called out for bearing false witness. Will daily papers and TV news reporters have the nerve to ask these moralizing assholes how they can justify violating one of the Ten Commandments in their rush to vilify gay couples and panic straight ones? Or will they get the pass that religious groups typically do when they engage in this kind of hate mongering?
1
Dan, someone in the original thread posted a total rebuttal that cited facts and case law. Copypasta, please.
3
There's two levels of lying here. One is that the people in the commercial are actors, who are (obviously) not the people they say they are. And two, relates the the specific situations themselves (e.g., are schools in Massachusetts actually teaching that gay marriage is okay?).
They fail on both accounts...
They fail on both accounts...
4
The other two statements are just plain idiotic, but the first one doesn't even make sense. How the fuck does gay marriage have anything to do with the job of a doctor?
5
Since when does calling religious folk on their hypocrisy work? They thrive on it. They call it 'the unknowable mind of God'.
I suggest teaching our gay youth how to fight.
I suggest teaching our gay youth how to fight.
6
I'd like it for the third one to be true.
Bigots should be helpless as their children are taught better in a public school system.
Bigots should be helpless as their children are taught better in a public school system.
7
There IS some small print that shows up from 0:17-0:24 -- "The stories these actors are telling are based on real incidents. Find out more at www.nationformarriage.org."
8
You should know by now that religious nutballs will lie and fabricate anything that advances their beliefs. Just add this to:
1) This nation was founded as a Christian Nation
2) There is a huge debate in the scientific community as to evolution having occurred
3) Hitler got all of his ideas from Darwin
4) Abstinance only education works
5) The earth is 6,000 years old, I can prove it
6) The Bible is the inerrant word of god.
7) Condoms don't work
8) Sarah Palin is qualified to be President
9) George Bush will go down as the greatest president in history
I could keep going, but what's the point. Just thank your lucky stars you don't live in the South where idiots believe this crap
1) This nation was founded as a Christian Nation
2) There is a huge debate in the scientific community as to evolution having occurred
3) Hitler got all of his ideas from Darwin
4) Abstinance only education works
5) The earth is 6,000 years old, I can prove it
6) The Bible is the inerrant word of god.
7) Condoms don't work
8) Sarah Palin is qualified to be President
9) George Bush will go down as the greatest president in history
I could keep going, but what's the point. Just thank your lucky stars you don't live in the South where idiots believe this crap
9
I am a fearful, brainwashed, right-wing, religious cretin and I worry that if gay marriages become legal, I may be forced to marry a gay person and discover that - like that little boy in the soup ad - I had nothing to fear.
11
@4:
"How the fuck does gay marriage have anything to do with the job of a doctor? "
It interferes with a doctor's right to refuse a woman access to her lesbian partner if that partner is dying in the hospital, or their right to refuse to offer an emergency c-section for a lesbian who may be in trouble during childbirth, it refueses them the right to not consider a homosexual partner's wishes regarding pulling the plug on a comatose patient, etc. Put the word "right" in quotes for all those, btw.
"How the fuck does gay marriage have anything to do with the job of a doctor? "
It interferes with a doctor's right to refuse a woman access to her lesbian partner if that partner is dying in the hospital, or their right to refuse to offer an emergency c-section for a lesbian who may be in trouble during childbirth, it refueses them the right to not consider a homosexual partner's wishes regarding pulling the plug on a comatose patient, etc. Put the word "right" in quotes for all those, btw.
12
Reason.
You reply to this ad with reason. That's charming.
Did you really assume they were reasonable people? That they would listen to reason?
You reply to this ad with reason. That's charming.
Did you really assume they were reasonable people? That they would listen to reason?
13
@9
A little research and we discover that the little boy is Mikey and guess what? he likes LIFE! and really, kids, isn't that what gay marriage is all about? Having the life you want, having the life you deserve and having the life that actually disturbs no one else except for mental peeping Toms.
A little research and we discover that the little boy is Mikey and guess what? he likes LIFE! and really, kids, isn't that what gay marriage is all about? Having the life you want, having the life you deserve and having the life that actually disturbs no one else except for mental peeping Toms.
14
If this BS starts airing, there needs to be a rebuttal aired as well that simply and accurately points out exactly where this ad is lying. If you look at the way "The Right" has handled these issues (like Prop. 8) thus far, there is a pattern of fear mongering and emotional manipulation. There needs to be a response from the pro-gay marriage crowd that is also in the public eye. Just because people who are interested and active in this campaign know the truth does not mean that Joe Schmo who has never really thought twice isn't going to be swayed by these lies. He's probably not going to put in the effort of researching these claims (which is what these people are relying on), so our side needs to correct and counter these allegations in a forum that is accessible to the general public.
15
one thing to consider is that they do not believe they are lying. saying they are lying will hold absolutely zero points in a conversation with them. but i suppose saying it is a lie is just as effective (and absent of details) as the original ads -- so perhaps that reasoning will work when preaching to the converted.
17
I am so very sorry. Yes, Dan you know you are correct. Scripture confirms you in the New Testament as well.
Matthew 19:16-19
Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good things must I do to get eternal life?"
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' "
It is my opinion, based off of my time spent in an conservative evangelical church, that most people rely on the pulpit about what to believe. People in the pulpit often rely on the likes of Mr. Dobson to guide them. Most people who agree with this commerical do not believe they are bearing false witness, they believe that the commerical is the truth. They BELIEVE that homosexuals are really heterosexuals who are making a sinful choice. They believe if any Christian organizations say something is true, then it is true. I have to mention bearing false witness is NOT the unforgivable sin. We believe that Christ's death on the cross covers all sins, except the one He said it does not.
As a Christian I am so very sorry. I will keep speaking out about this injustice. This is yet another reason for me to be ashamed.
Matthew 19:16-19
Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good things must I do to get eternal life?"
"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' "
It is my opinion, based off of my time spent in an conservative evangelical church, that most people rely on the pulpit about what to believe. People in the pulpit often rely on the likes of Mr. Dobson to guide them. Most people who agree with this commerical do not believe they are bearing false witness, they believe that the commerical is the truth. They BELIEVE that homosexuals are really heterosexuals who are making a sinful choice. They believe if any Christian organizations say something is true, then it is true. I have to mention bearing false witness is NOT the unforgivable sin. We believe that Christ's death on the cross covers all sins, except the one He said it does not.
As a Christian I am so very sorry. I will keep speaking out about this injustice. This is yet another reason for me to be ashamed.
18
To all the Christians out there: don't be ashamed and don't believe that everyone left of center thinks you're a bigot. The way I understand the basics of Christianity (after 12 years of catholic education) is that one should be concerned with one's OWN behavior. Each Christian should live THEIR life according to the teachings of Christ.
This is precisely where the right wing nuts get it all wrong. They believe that their way is the only way and anyone who disagrees with them is on the autobahn to hell.
To live a good life you need only be kind and treat people in the manner in which you'd want to be treated. "Do unto others..." Right?
That's why our legal system tends toward regulating behavior that adversely affects other people in society. However, the minute a person or group begins to down a few shots of self-righteous flavored Kool-Aid, they start thinking that theirs is the only way to behave and therefore a law must be passed.
Basic lesson? If you don't like abortion, don't have one. If you think gay marriage is wrong, don't be gay and get married. If you think that sex outside of marriage is wrong, don't do it. Simple as that.
So sad that people complicate this to the point of absurdity.
This is precisely where the right wing nuts get it all wrong. They believe that their way is the only way and anyone who disagrees with them is on the autobahn to hell.
To live a good life you need only be kind and treat people in the manner in which you'd want to be treated. "Do unto others..." Right?
That's why our legal system tends toward regulating behavior that adversely affects other people in society. However, the minute a person or group begins to down a few shots of self-righteous flavored Kool-Aid, they start thinking that theirs is the only way to behave and therefore a law must be passed.
Basic lesson? If you don't like abortion, don't have one. If you think gay marriage is wrong, don't be gay and get married. If you think that sex outside of marriage is wrong, don't do it. Simple as that.
So sad that people complicate this to the point of absurdity.
20
@11-
don't worry, OBGYNs will always want to cut up pregnant ladies...even if the pregnant lady in question is a lesbain.
don't worry, OBGYNs will always want to cut up pregnant ladies...even if the pregnant lady in question is a lesbain.
21
Is there an organization that I can send money to that will make commercials rebutting this nonsense?
22
Complain to the FCC! Don't take it lying down. :)
http://esupport.fcc.gov/complaints.htm
Let them know that lies and propaganda should not be aired!
http://esupport.fcc.gov/complaints.htm
Let them know that lies and propaganda should not be aired!
23
Of course lying right-wing (so-called) 'Christians' will not be called on their lies. This is America - rational arguments may be endlessly debated, but belief and faith must never be questioned.
24
Was the kid in Ohio who committed suicide even gay?
Did 'religious bigots" have anything to do with what happened to him?
Did Dan bear false witness?
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
Did 'religious bigots" have anything to do with what happened to him?
Did Dan bear false witness?
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
25
Hi, Hypocrisy. If you would take the time to read (I know, it's super hard!) the link Dan included you might notice that the student was in fact gay. If you read other articles on the incident you will find that the tone of the bullying was about him being gay and telling him to commit suicide. I guess actually looking for facts might hurt you, though.
26
It is wrong to commit murder, except when on the battlefield doing so in the name of your country.
Or in civil war, your cause.
My understanding of faith-based activism groups such as DOM is that they regard only their brethren of faith as part of their community, hence worthy of the respect commanded by the Golden Rule, or by the Ten Commandments, for that matter. Gays, gay sympathists, those that would legislate or adjudicate gay rights and those that would enforce gay rights are regarded as enemies, hence we can be cheated, lied to, stolen from or even murdered without fear of divine recourse. It's not a matter of hypocrisy, we're just not regarded as human in their eyes.
As for doctors choosing between their faith and their jobs, this movement is much bigger than merely refusing medical care to gays. There's also been a push to pharmacists to deny women birth control based on religious convictions (and not just the day-after pill) or to deny women abortions, (whether or not the circumstances that warrant one -- rape, incest, life endangerment, whatever -- are sufficient in the eyes of a given group). So this is one big ol' honkin'' proverbial iceberg, of which the incident listed is just the peak.
#24 "In a federal lawsuit the parents of Eric Mohat allege that he regularly was called 'gay,' 'fag,' 'queer' and 'homo' among other names and that the school did nothing to prevent it."
Now granted, *I* was regularly called 'gay' and 'fag' in middle and high school regardless of my lack of sexual development, as they seem to be generic classroom derisions in municipal schools the way 'nerd' and 'geek' were in the '50s, (though not "homo" or "queer", reserved for actual fags.) Still, this does show both an underlying homophobia and insensitivity to gay issues (we don't see 'kike' 'nigger' or 'chink' used indiscriminately), but if the sort of attention to minutiae you guys want to apply to this incident were applied to the prisoners at Camp Delta, we might have had a lot less innocent *illegal combatants* subject to torture in our good name.
U.
More...
Or in civil war, your cause.
My understanding of faith-based activism groups such as DOM is that they regard only their brethren of faith as part of their community, hence worthy of the respect commanded by the Golden Rule, or by the Ten Commandments, for that matter. Gays, gay sympathists, those that would legislate or adjudicate gay rights and those that would enforce gay rights are regarded as enemies, hence we can be cheated, lied to, stolen from or even murdered without fear of divine recourse. It's not a matter of hypocrisy, we're just not regarded as human in their eyes.
As for doctors choosing between their faith and their jobs, this movement is much bigger than merely refusing medical care to gays. There's also been a push to pharmacists to deny women birth control based on religious convictions (and not just the day-after pill) or to deny women abortions, (whether or not the circumstances that warrant one -- rape, incest, life endangerment, whatever -- are sufficient in the eyes of a given group). So this is one big ol' honkin'' proverbial iceberg, of which the incident listed is just the peak.
#24 "In a federal lawsuit the parents of Eric Mohat allege that he regularly was called 'gay,' 'fag,' 'queer' and 'homo' among other names and that the school did nothing to prevent it."
Now granted, *I* was regularly called 'gay' and 'fag' in middle and high school regardless of my lack of sexual development, as they seem to be generic classroom derisions in municipal schools the way 'nerd' and 'geek' were in the '50s, (though not "homo" or "queer", reserved for actual fags.) Still, this does show both an underlying homophobia and insensitivity to gay issues (we don't see 'kike' 'nigger' or 'chink' used indiscriminately), but if the sort of attention to minutiae you guys want to apply to this incident were applied to the prisoners at Camp Delta, we might have had a lot less innocent *illegal combatants* subject to torture in our good name.
U.
27
@25
Jen, darlin- if you read the articles linked in the post thread (or google it) you will see that the kid was not gay.
Not even 365GAY said he was, the AP certainly didn't. DivershityInc inserted that in their version, that is the only place you will see it and they provide no evidence, they ran the same story everyone else did but just stuck their own made up part about him being gay in the lead.
Dan either accepted the fictional propaganda from a homosexual advocacy site without doing any (zip, nada, zero) other fact checking (Dan calls that being a STUPID FUCKIN' CREDULOUS HACK, btw)
or
he intentionally joined DivershityInc in lying about this kid and twisting the story to take advantage of this family's tragedy for his own cynical purposes.
Jen, darlin- if you read the articles linked in the post thread (or google it) you will see that the kid was not gay.
Not even 365GAY said he was, the AP certainly didn't. DivershityInc inserted that in their version, that is the only place you will see it and they provide no evidence, they ran the same story everyone else did but just stuck their own made up part about him being gay in the lead.
Dan either accepted the fictional propaganda from a homosexual advocacy site without doing any (zip, nada, zero) other fact checking (Dan calls that being a STUPID FUCKIN' CREDULOUS HACK, btw)
or
he intentionally joined DivershityInc in lying about this kid and twisting the story to take advantage of this family's tragedy for his own cynical purposes.
28
@17
Why do you constantly apologize for the beliefs of others? It is not within your power to do so and it is very arrogant. There was Someone who took on the sins of all mankind and it wasn't you. Perhaps you could confine yourself to explaining and apologizing for your own beliefs and actions but refrain from kissing up to the heathens on slog by agreeing with their distorted and false characterizations of other people's beliefs and 'apologizing' for them?
Why do you constantly apologize for the beliefs of others? It is not within your power to do so and it is very arrogant. There was Someone who took on the sins of all mankind and it wasn't you. Perhaps you could confine yourself to explaining and apologizing for your own beliefs and actions but refrain from kissing up to the heathens on slog by agreeing with their distorted and false characterizations of other people's beliefs and 'apologizing' for them?
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