Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, April 7, 2009
Homo / News Vermont Legalizes Same-Sex Marriage
Posted by Christopher Frizzelle on Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 8:52 AM
The legislature voted to override the governor's veto. The Associated Press has the story.
5
Misleading title, it hasn't gone to the House yet. I was excited when I read it, but being the downer I am, I figure I'll just point that out. But it's closer than any other legislative attempt, as far as I know.
6
Fucking perverts.
I can't believe that those damned politicians would shit over a representative democracy by not voting with the will of the people. These activist politicians really get my goat, and I hope they find the Lord in order to live with themselves.
Let's look at Genesis 11:7, Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. This lets us know that some people really don't know what the fuck they're saying or doing. This type of politics really is Lord, they know not what they do or say or think. I do hope that they look into their hearts and become one with the people of Vermont.
God bless.
I can't believe that those damned politicians would shit over a representative democracy by not voting with the will of the people. These activist politicians really get my goat, and I hope they find the Lord in order to live with themselves.
Let's look at Genesis 11:7, Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. This lets us know that some people really don't know what the fuck they're saying or doing. This type of politics really is Lord, they know not what they do or say or think. I do hope that they look into their hearts and become one with the people of Vermont.
God bless.
7
5, It's a done deal according to MSNBC
The vote was 23-5 to override in the state Senate and 100-49 to override in the House.
9
Nope. It's official. The first state to have marriage equality through legislation rather than judicial action. That, in itself, is reason for hope.
11
@ 8, good luck to them - they'll need it if they want to get anywhere in Vt.
Actually, I hope they do try to get it on the ballot there. It will be sooooo satisfying when they vote against making marriage equality illegal again, denying the hard right their favorite talking point.
Actually, I hope they do try to get it on the ballot there. It will be sooooo satisfying when they vote against making marriage equality illegal again, denying the hard right their favorite talking point.
12
A setback for Democracy but no doubt the people have waken up, Iowa (like other states that don't have bans) is taking notice and I'm hopeful that they will do whats right and institute a ban to protect their families.
13
Meanwhile, James Dobson's voice of Jesus it telling little girls to suck his dick, and swallow. http://www.stinque.com/2009/04/06/voice-…
18
@6, Its bad enough that we have to see the hatred spewed by that very "unchristian" christian Loveschild on this blog, and I know that you are being sarcastic, but do you think we can just enjoy this moment without having to be reminded of her. Thanks.
21
15 Protect them from arbitrary impositions on their neighborhoods, schools, streets, in their states that disrupt the set of values they are trying to teach to their kids.
It is now obvious that the only way for states to protect themselves from this sort of tyranny is to implement bans that preserve such a vital institution for our nation as marriage. There is an urgency to them now more than ever if we want to preserve our nation for a future existence.
It is now obvious that the only way for states to protect themselves from this sort of tyranny is to implement bans that preserve such a vital institution for our nation as marriage. There is an urgency to them now more than ever if we want to preserve our nation for a future existence.
22
Oh, hey-- Vermont doesn't have an Initiative and Referendum system, you guys. I forgot to mention that. "The People" can't vote on this yay or nay, and seeing how long CUs have stood on the books, this thing is cut and dry.
Enjoy your marriages.
Enjoy your marriages.
23
@15 Protect them from the influx of child molesters and perverts that we know the married gay population to be. You see, marriage is just a front for pedophiliac activity. It will always lead to it. That married gay couple next door? They have ravaged no less than 15 innocent boys, all under the tender age of 9. The tragedy of the molestation has torn the families in the neighborhood to shreds.
With legalizing gay marriage, the gays who want to be married, far more perverse than the ones who don't, will flee their large cities and move into these nice rural states, where many more families will suffer. The people know this. I hope that the politicians will understand when the people put a stop to their activism in order to protect their family.
Really, this has gone too far. This is a threat to everything I love and stand for. We need to rise up and stop the gays.
With legalizing gay marriage, the gays who want to be married, far more perverse than the ones who don't, will flee their large cities and move into these nice rural states, where many more families will suffer. The people know this. I hope that the politicians will understand when the people put a stop to their activism in order to protect their family.
Really, this has gone too far. This is a threat to everything I love and stand for. We need to rise up and stop the gays.
24
That's great news -- can't blame the "activist judges" for this one, can they? So, is it "activist legislators" now who are the problem?
Also, this picture illustrated the story on my Google News reader. If that is a "gay marriage" stock photo, it's a pretty funny one...
Also, this picture illustrated the story on my Google News reader. If that is a "gay marriage" stock photo, it's a pretty funny one...
25
@18 I'm shocked, SHOCKED, that you would think I am being sarcastic when talking about such a serious issue as marriage and child molestation. This is an issue that is near and dear to my heart.
Besides, Loveschild showed up 23 minutes and 6 posts later to help support me and my beliefs. Just like I do hers.
Besides, Loveschild showed up 23 minutes and 6 posts later to help support me and my beliefs. Just like I do hers.
27
Yeah, my marriage and children are THREATENED!!!!
Give up, loveschild. You're wrong. You've been proven wrong. It takes a long time but freedom always wins. That's how you should empirically know that you're on the wrong side.
Give up, loveschild. You're wrong. You've been proven wrong. It takes a long time but freedom always wins. That's how you should empirically know that you're on the wrong side.
29
Look, nothing short of rounding up all gays and putting them into concentration camps is going to appease the gay haters amongst us.
30
Loveschild, your side loses. I know you can't admit it, but this was a decision by the elected officials of the populace of Vermont. This is how it works in our country.
You write of what this decision is teaching children. I worry about the kind of narrow minded, bigoted hatred you teach. If you have children or access to them, you are a negative influence on their growth and I pray to god that they see through you and learn to love their fellow human beings despite their differences.
You write of what this decision is teaching children. I worry about the kind of narrow minded, bigoted hatred you teach. If you have children or access to them, you are a negative influence on their growth and I pray to god that they see through you and learn to love their fellow human beings despite their differences.
31
@21 You don't seem to have any trouble coming here and espousing views that deeply undermine the values of the SLOG community. And we let you because we don't need to be protected from views that counter our own values. Similarly, heterosexual marriage has no need to be protected from other kinds of marriage because there is no danger. Relationships among loving couple can be officially sanctioned by the state without harm to other marriages.
32
21: Protect them from arbitrary impositions on their neighborhoods, schools, streets, in their states that disrupt the set of values they are trying to teach to their kids.
So let me get this right, the duly elected representatives of the State of Vermont, who were and are elected to enact the will of the public, and in doing so, craft a law supporting Marriage equality, subject it to debate, criticism, and not one, not two, but three votes, including the Veto override, including more than enough action alerts from every wingnut religious group out there to protest said bill, pass it, and that's suddenly and "arbitrary imposition"?
It's official.
You're crazy.
So let me get this right, the duly elected representatives of the State of Vermont, who were and are elected to enact the will of the public, and in doing so, craft a law supporting Marriage equality, subject it to debate, criticism, and not one, not two, but three votes, including the Veto override, including more than enough action alerts from every wingnut religious group out there to protest said bill, pass it, and that's suddenly and "arbitrary imposition"?
It's official.
You're crazy.
33
I hope that this teaches children that same sex relationships are as legitimate as opposite sex relationships. I hope it does undermine the bigoted values their parents and church teaches them. I hope that any young person who knows they are gay or lesbian is validated by this decision and that it is okay to be gay and come out of the closet.
In the long run people like "loveschild" are going to be viewed very much like those in the 50' and 60's who hated the civil rights movement. You will look just like the other fools who attempted to stand in the way of social progress. There are still handfulls of people who disapprove of interracial marriages, but there is nothing they can do about it. Opponets of same sex marriage will just have to get used to it.
In the long run people like "loveschild" are going to be viewed very much like those in the 50' and 60's who hated the civil rights movement. You will look just like the other fools who attempted to stand in the way of social progress. There are still handfulls of people who disapprove of interracial marriages, but there is nothing they can do about it. Opponets of same sex marriage will just have to get used to it.
35
I agree heterosexual marriages are not being threatened. I believe we are being strengthened and encouraged with the legalization of same-sex marriage. My words are not eloquent enough, so I will defer my words for the words of Bishop John Shelby Sprong.
"When you understand what pressure gay people live under - where the prejudice is enormous, where the hostility is enormous, where in many circumstances they can lose their jobs, be run out of their neighborhoods, and be physically abused - and they're still able to make commitments that are life-giving to each person, then I think we ought to take off our hats to them and cheer. I think they've got something to teach the rest of us about a holy relationship."
I'm taking my hat off.
I agree heterosexual marriages are not being threatened. I believe we are being strengthened and encouraged with the legalization of same-sex marriage. My words are not eloquent enough, so I will defer my words for the words of Bishop John Shelby Sprong.
"When you understand what pressure gay people live under - where the prejudice is enormous, where the hostility is enormous, where in many circumstances they can lose their jobs, be run out of their neighborhoods, and be physically abused - and they're still able to make commitments that are life-giving to each person, then I think we ought to take off our hats to them and cheer. I think they've got something to teach the rest of us about a holy relationship."
I'm taking my hat off.
36
@Loveschild and Loveschild Proxy
"Loves Child"
...is a self-proclaimed expert on pedophilia.
...uses misdirection to avoid guilt by pointing fingers at others.
...has recruited "proxies" to do the dirty work.
Hmmm... So, "Loves Child," have you ever been interviewed by Chris Hansen with Dateline NBC?
"Loves Child"
...is a self-proclaimed expert on pedophilia.
...uses misdirection to avoid guilt by pointing fingers at others.
...has recruited "proxies" to do the dirty work.
Hmmm... So, "Loves Child," have you ever been interviewed by Chris Hansen with Dateline NBC?
37
The most remarkable fact is that the original bill passed 95-52, but the override vote was 100-49, meaning there may have been some that voted against the bill, but voted to override anyway.
38
@34
That gives me an idea.
Iowa has a lot more doorknobs that I thought. Maybe instead I'll lick every doorknob in Vermont to celebrate the fact that We Are Whining!
That gives me an idea.
Iowa has a lot more doorknobs that I thought. Maybe instead I'll lick every doorknob in Vermont to celebrate the fact that We Are Whining!
40
30 While this is a big let down for me (I will not deny it) I beg to differ with you, though it seems nothing can be done now about VT other states like Iowa who have yet to establish state bans to protect their families are going to be the focus of those of us who love life. This is by no means over until we see those bans put in to place in those remaining states. If I had any reservations before now I'm joining anyone that has that as their goal. Like I have commented before I personally was not against civil unions but now seeing that they're just a stepping stone for gay activist groups to dismantle marriage I now am opposed to them also and I know from talking to others who like me had no problem with civil unions this has succeeded in turning them against them also. We were with you on this but the name calling, the assaults on our families and the total disregard for our laws have now broken any common ground we could've had. I thank people like you and the VT decision because we are now aware that you do not seek compromise you only seek imposition and the only way to defend our families from these sort of attacks is to be as proactive and fierce in our goals as you are. This is personal now, the gloves come off, I will defend my love ones and I will not make no apologies about that. For the God that delivered the Israelites from the tyranny of the Pharaoh still works miracles in our time and he will always be on the side of life of the family of what he has deemed good for his creation, for its existence.
41
@36: As much as I disagree with Loveschild, I'm not OK with the inference that a person is a pedophile without something to back it up. On what do you base your first claim?
43
I'd like to say "eat shit and die, Loveschild", but it's a happy, happy day for freedom, so I'll just let her go past. Today is not a day for losers but for winners in the fight for justice.
44
I am so proud to be a gay VTer today! After 9 years of hard grassroots work, we did it. VT Freedom to Marry and our supportive legislators deserve medals of honor. Our governor deserves a badge of shame. He's on the wrong side of history, and I hope his loss today will mean a loss if he runs again. (I'm going to be working hard for that.) For those of you who are hoping this will be overturned, it's not going to happen. Wisely, we have no referendum process in VT so civil rights can't be put in the hands of the ignorant. Forward!
45
Keep telling yourself that, loveschild. Just make sure that you know any bloodshed from this will be the result of rhetoric like yours, and your god won't judge that lightly.
46
41 I thank you but his comment should not surprise you because that is what his and your side promotes, nothing that edifies. No moral, intellectual or spiritual improvement.
47
Loveschild, could you please explain the following:
1) How does gay marriage have anything to do with those who "love life"? Is there a gay marriage ritual sacrifice of a straight person I don't know about?
2) How does gay marriage dismantle marriage? I keep seeing this as a scaring point, but none of you have been able to make a cogent argument how this is going to happen.
3) What total disregard for laws? Do you mean the changing of laws through proper means (that one's rhetorical, I know that one's a yes)? I'm sorry that America is letting your side down, but just because you lose doesn't mean a law's been broken.
4) How is this an attack on your family? Like #2, it's a great sound bite to scare other small minded people, but I've yet to see a defensible argument that it's actually true.
5) Your God doesn't have a monopoly anymore. He's on the world stage now and he has to learn to share.
6) Your inability to understand that gay people can have families as well and be as loving, if not more so, than a straight family proves that you are not communing with a god of love or even the god of the new testament.
But you can take great happiness in this -- and I have no qualms with this -- your religion does not have to EVER perform a gay marriage. THAT'S the great thing about the separation of church and state. Y'all can preach that the 'mos are going to hell until you are enraptured and speakin' in tongues. I don't care. Just don't try to force your religious beliefs on me. I've got a spirituality that I'm quite comfortable with and I will never try to convert you to it. I ask you to give me the same respect, OK?
1) How does gay marriage have anything to do with those who "love life"? Is there a gay marriage ritual sacrifice of a straight person I don't know about?
2) How does gay marriage dismantle marriage? I keep seeing this as a scaring point, but none of you have been able to make a cogent argument how this is going to happen.
3) What total disregard for laws? Do you mean the changing of laws through proper means (that one's rhetorical, I know that one's a yes)? I'm sorry that America is letting your side down, but just because you lose doesn't mean a law's been broken.
4) How is this an attack on your family? Like #2, it's a great sound bite to scare other small minded people, but I've yet to see a defensible argument that it's actually true.
5) Your God doesn't have a monopoly anymore. He's on the world stage now and he has to learn to share.
6) Your inability to understand that gay people can have families as well and be as loving, if not more so, than a straight family proves that you are not communing with a god of love or even the god of the new testament.
But you can take great happiness in this -- and I have no qualms with this -- your religion does not have to EVER perform a gay marriage. THAT'S the great thing about the separation of church and state. Y'all can preach that the 'mos are going to hell until you are enraptured and speakin' in tongues. I don't care. Just don't try to force your religious beliefs on me. I've got a spirituality that I'm quite comfortable with and I will never try to convert you to it. I ask you to give me the same respect, OK?
48
Yay VT!
Although, maybe in the same way everyone thought California was uber-progressive, I kinda expected Vermont to be the FIRST state to have already done this by now. I was really surprised they had a Republican anything there, much less a Republican governor.
Although, maybe in the same way everyone thought California was uber-progressive, I kinda expected Vermont to be the FIRST state to have already done this by now. I was really surprised they had a Republican anything there, much less a Republican governor.
49
Oh and to your comment at 41, nice try, but your side does the same. I don't need your backhanded compliment.
50
46: "No moral, intellectual or spiritual improvement."
Really? You sure about that? I mean absolutely, 100%, no doubt in your mind sure?
Because that sounds to me like "I know more than you do and I am in judgement over you". Not very christian, huh?
How heavy is that first stone?
Really? You sure about that? I mean absolutely, 100%, no doubt in your mind sure?
Because that sounds to me like "I know more than you do and I am in judgement over you". Not very christian, huh?
How heavy is that first stone?
51
45 Unlike yours our side seeks life not the spilling of blood from any of God's creation. We will now be as resolute and as you are an adopt a preventive position since its obvious that our preemptive positions are not working. Life endowed by our Creator is our only rhetoric.
52
When democratically elected legislators pass a law to give a group of people the equal rights they deserve, Loveschild sees "tyranny". When people are allowed to express their romantic commitment through the legal institution of marriage, Loveschild feels like her family is "threatened". I think someone needs her meds adjusted.
53
@51: would that were true, but we've seen what the self proclaimed foot soldiers of the religious right have done to abortion clinics and doctors. Why should we believe that those who feel that this decision means "This is personal now, the gloves come off, I will defend my love ones and I will not make no apologies about that" won't stoop to the methods used before?
54
@51: Holy wars, declarations of sin trumping the right to life, attacks on innocents, condoning violence in the name of the lord, demanding subservience not to your god but to your side, lies about hatred, false witness against others, forcing science to justify willful attempts at enslaving others and hatred to the highest order.
You will be judged, sorry. I pray for you and all the things you do to make yourself a god on earth, hoping one day you see that you can't ignore the many excoriations against using the name of the lord to punish those you disagree with.
You will be judged, sorry. I pray for you and all the things you do to make yourself a god on earth, hoping one day you see that you can't ignore the many excoriations against using the name of the lord to punish those you disagree with.
55
@51 Seeking war is not seeking life. Seeking the death penalty for inmates is not seeking life. Endorsing torture is not seeking life.
I fucking dare you to refute that.
I fucking dare you to refute that.
56
Sanctity of life. Do you believe in it? Personally, I think it's a bunch of shit. Who says life is sacred? .....god? Great, but if you read your history you know that god is one of the leading causes of death and has been for thousands of years. Hindus, Muslims, Christians, Jews, all taking turns killing one another, all because god told them it was a good idea. The sword of god, the blood of the lamb, Vengeance is mine, onward Christian soldiers. Millions of dead motherfuckers! Millions of dead motherfuckers, all because they gave the wrong answer to the god Question: Do you believe in god?
"No."
BAM! Dead. How about you? Do you believe in god?
"Yes."
Do you believe in MY god?
"No."
BAM! Dead!
My god has a bigger dick than your god!
For thousands of years all the bloodiest and most brutal wars have been based on religious hatred. Which of course, is fine with me; anytime "holy" people are killing one another, I'm a happy guy......but please, don't kill each other and give me that shit about sanctity of life.
"No."
BAM! Dead. How about you? Do you believe in god?
"Yes."
Do you believe in MY god?
"No."
BAM! Dead!
My god has a bigger dick than your god!
For thousands of years all the bloodiest and most brutal wars have been based on religious hatred. Which of course, is fine with me; anytime "holy" people are killing one another, I'm a happy guy......but please, don't kill each other and give me that shit about sanctity of life.
58
As a straight Vermonter, I am extremely proud today. Go Vermont! Hopefully this is the beginning of the end for Douglas.
And Loveschild, please direct your hate and vitriol away from my state and its citizens.
And Loveschild, please direct your hate and vitriol away from my state and its citizens.
60
@41
Eschew obfuscation.
Your concern is not necessarily mine, and you've demonstrated no basis upon which it should be.
"Loves Child" and, now, "Proxy" have clearly demonstrated a compulsive obsession with the sexual practices of others and have shown a predilection toward the topic of pedophilia.
They consistently misdirect and redirect attention from themselves by using their condemnation of others to write line after line about the sexual perversions upon which they obviously obsess.
Did you somehow miss this glaringly obvious behavior?
Holding a mirror up to the behavior is one of the few forms of intervention possible in this forum.
Do you realize that by attacking my attempt to confront this behavior that you've become their enabler?
Eschew obfuscation.
Your concern is not necessarily mine, and you've demonstrated no basis upon which it should be.
"Loves Child" and, now, "Proxy" have clearly demonstrated a compulsive obsession with the sexual practices of others and have shown a predilection toward the topic of pedophilia.
They consistently misdirect and redirect attention from themselves by using their condemnation of others to write line after line about the sexual perversions upon which they obviously obsess.
Did you somehow miss this glaringly obvious behavior?
Holding a mirror up to the behavior is one of the few forms of intervention possible in this forum.
Do you realize that by attacking my attempt to confront this behavior that you've become their enabler?
62
Since Loveschild is such a fan of Democracy and "majority rules", can we vote this fool off of SLOG forever?
63
no we cant bad homo. Cause then she would cry that she is an oppressed minority and we are all activist judges ruining her children's lives.
64
@60: All I asked was that you provide some back-up for your assertion -- an assertion of one of the most unconscionable behaviors in our society. I'm not saying it isn't there, I just may have missed it, so educate me.
However, if you're going to make baseless ad hominem attacks, you're resorting to the same behavior for which many of us are decrying Loveschild.
I did not attack you or your post. Do not mistake a request for information for an attack.
However, if you're going to make baseless ad hominem attacks, you're resorting to the same behavior for which many of us are decrying Loveschild.
I did not attack you or your post. Do not mistake a request for information for an attack.
65
Oh -- and Loveschild's Proxy is not in the same boat as Loveschild. I'd read their posts a little more closely, the sarcasm is dripping.
66
47 Cracker Jack, I know you refuse to acknowledge the truth but here:
1 What's the birth rate amongst same sex unions? 0
Gay couples can't have biological kids together and with the rejection of the traditional family comes plunging birthrates or demographic winters like the ones that are occurring in Western Europe and that have not completely swallowed those nations because of immigration. You see when you disrupt a fundamental institution like marriage that for millennia has anchored cultures worldwide and is essential for the continuum of life then you are not loving life but the opposite. You are embracing death, extermination and opposition to our Creator.
2 gay marriage does away with the universal standards that are important to family stability leaving the institution of marriage exposed and vulnerable with its doors open to an anything goes mentality, infectious diseases and all sorts aberrant behaviors. Soon there will be no basis for denying bestiality or polygamy.
3 The arbitrary changing of the definition of a fundamental social institution like marriage by either politicians who don't see themselves as accountable to the people they're voted in to represent, who have in fact consigned the family to oblivion or by activist courts that have a total disregard for the Constitution of our nation is by itself the mere definition of disregarding the law.
4 Its and attack on marriage for the same reasons I explained in 2. It will reinforce those negative changes. Polygamy, bestiality, increase in preventable sexual transmitted diseases will all contribute to the inevitable destruction of the pillars of marriage and our society.
5 Jews, Christians, Muslims all share the belief in the same God. We constitute the vast majority throughout all nations of this earth. Yours are nothing but a fringe group that are seeking to disrupt life and our communion with our Creator.
6 Again, What's the birth rate amongst same sex unions? 0
Gay couples can't have biological kids together. The invention of their families comes not from a yearning on their part (as they want to make it seem) of forming traditional families but from the same reason they are now attacking the institution of marriage: to seek society’s ultimate stamp of approval on a sexual relationship that is to say on their sexual behavior not because they actually want to participate in the institution of marriage and of rearing children as it has been know from time immemorial.
More...
1 What's the birth rate amongst same sex unions? 0
Gay couples can't have biological kids together and with the rejection of the traditional family comes plunging birthrates or demographic winters like the ones that are occurring in Western Europe and that have not completely swallowed those nations because of immigration. You see when you disrupt a fundamental institution like marriage that for millennia has anchored cultures worldwide and is essential for the continuum of life then you are not loving life but the opposite. You are embracing death, extermination and opposition to our Creator.
2 gay marriage does away with the universal standards that are important to family stability leaving the institution of marriage exposed and vulnerable with its doors open to an anything goes mentality, infectious diseases and all sorts aberrant behaviors. Soon there will be no basis for denying bestiality or polygamy.
3 The arbitrary changing of the definition of a fundamental social institution like marriage by either politicians who don't see themselves as accountable to the people they're voted in to represent, who have in fact consigned the family to oblivion or by activist courts that have a total disregard for the Constitution of our nation is by itself the mere definition of disregarding the law.
4 Its and attack on marriage for the same reasons I explained in 2. It will reinforce those negative changes. Polygamy, bestiality, increase in preventable sexual transmitted diseases will all contribute to the inevitable destruction of the pillars of marriage and our society.
5 Jews, Christians, Muslims all share the belief in the same God. We constitute the vast majority throughout all nations of this earth. Yours are nothing but a fringe group that are seeking to disrupt life and our communion with our Creator.
6 Again, What's the birth rate amongst same sex unions? 0
Gay couples can't have biological kids together. The invention of their families comes not from a yearning on their part (as they want to make it seem) of forming traditional families but from the same reason they are now attacking the institution of marriage: to seek society’s ultimate stamp of approval on a sexual relationship that is to say on their sexual behavior not because they actually want to participate in the institution of marriage and of rearing children as it has been know from time immemorial.
67
In other news: The D.C. Council voted today to recognize same-sex marriages performed in other states, on the same day that Vermont became the fourth state to legalize same-sex unions. (Washington Post)
69
About the pedophile thing & Loveschild - @64, I think yawp was just saying Loveschild is an expert (self proclaimed) on it, not is one. This is a happy day people - nothing to do with pedophiles.
Also, Loveschild can suck it.
Also, Loveschild can suck it.
70
@66- The birthrate is much higher than zero. I personally know four lesbian couples who've had children in their marriage (or domestic partnership). They had a little help from friends/sperm banks, but then so do straight couples sometimes. And of course, the adoption rate is FAR higher than in the straight community.
Now the unplanned pregnancy rate for the gay community is zero, but I don't see anything wrong with that.
Now the unplanned pregnancy rate for the gay community is zero, but I don't see anything wrong with that.
71
well miss loveschild
i'm gettin married..to a man..in a church.. by a christian minister . so not only will i be subverting your loopy definition of marriage, but your very religion as well. which reminds me of a joke i heard in the the film 'sounder' which, loosely transposed, goes like this..
so i asked god what must it be like in loveschild house, with all that newly resolved bigotry? and god answers..' couldn't tell you..i've never been there."
i'm gettin married..to a man..in a church.. by a christian minister . so not only will i be subverting your loopy definition of marriage, but your very religion as well. which reminds me of a joke i heard in the the film 'sounder' which, loosely transposed, goes like this..
so i asked god what must it be like in loveschild house, with all that newly resolved bigotry? and god answers..' couldn't tell you..i've never been there."
72
@64
Assuming you can read and comprehend, I have provided all the instruction required for you to learn and understand.
Your remedial education is not an undertaking that interests me.
Rest assured, though, when the student is ready the teacher will appear.
If you want to enable "Loves Child" and "Proxy," do so, but don't chafe at being called what you are.
Obviously, you don't want to comprehend; you want to argue.
Okay.
So, go ahead, argue for the sake of your vanity, or argue for the sake of argument. But, you'll have to find another playmate.
Simply stated, you bore me.
Assuming you can read and comprehend, I have provided all the instruction required for you to learn and understand.
Your remedial education is not an undertaking that interests me.
Rest assured, though, when the student is ready the teacher will appear.
If you want to enable "Loves Child" and "Proxy," do so, but don't chafe at being called what you are.
Obviously, you don't want to comprehend; you want to argue.
Okay.
So, go ahead, argue for the sake of your vanity, or argue for the sake of argument. But, you'll have to find another playmate.
Simply stated, you bore me.
73
Sigh - @66 - you are simply incorrect. There are about 7 billion (or so, I think) people on the planet. No danger of humans not breeding, unless you mean fewer white people, where yes, the percentage, but not the numbers may be declining.
And really, unless you are gay or bi this won't change anything for you. I'm a straight chick that never even went through the "play lesbian" phase, and had no desire to. Not my thing, but I can realize a husband and baby is not for every woman, and may be for some men. This ruling saves families and enables people to provide for those they love.
This has nothing to do with your view of God. God loves everyone and made gay people for a purpose. Everyone fits in this world. Even your hateful bigotry causes people to chose better, to chose love, to chose a loving God. So for that, I thank you.
And really, unless you are gay or bi this won't change anything for you. I'm a straight chick that never even went through the "play lesbian" phase, and had no desire to. Not my thing, but I can realize a husband and baby is not for every woman, and may be for some men. This ruling saves families and enables people to provide for those they love.
This has nothing to do with your view of God. God loves everyone and made gay people for a purpose. Everyone fits in this world. Even your hateful bigotry causes people to chose better, to chose love, to chose a loving God. So for that, I thank you.
76
1 What's the birth rate amongst same sex unions? 0
Answer: What’s the birth rate among couples who marry after child-bearing age? 0
Loveschild’s Argument: FAIL
2 gay marriage does away with the universal standards that are important to family stability leaving the institution of marriage exposed and vulnerable with its doors open to an anything goes mentality, infectious diseases and all sorts aberrant behaviors.
Answer: The universal standards that are important to family are support, love, financial and emotional stability, and the ability to make important health and financial decision for the partner in the marriage in the case of a debilitating injury or illness, and to be able take advantage of the laws that apply to married couples regardless of gender.
Loveschild’s Argument: FAIL
3 The arbitrary changing of the definition of a fundamental social institution like marriage by either politicians who don't see themselves as accountable to the people they're voted in to represent, who have in fact consigned the family to oblivion or by activist courts that have a total disregard for the Constitution of our nation is by itself the mere definition of disregarding the law.
Answer: 14th Amendment, Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Loveschild’s Argument: FAIL
4 Its and attack on marriage for the same reasons I explained in 2. It will reinforce those negative changes. Polygamy, bestiality, increase in preventable sexual transmitted diseases will all contribute to the inevitable destruction of the pillars of marriage and our society.
Answer: Heterosexual divorce rate: 50%, Percentage of adult population of Zimbabwe with AIDS: 24.06% as of 2001, Zimbabwe gay marriages: 0, from http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/18/… : Almost four years after the alleged civilization-destroying event, MA is second in the US with the lowest rate of divorce, second to Pennsylvania (the MA rate is 2.27 per 1,000, the PA rate is 2.2 per 1,000) and MA rates of teen pregnancy, already close to the lowest in the US, continue to drop, down over 2% in 2006. By contrast, gay marriage-unfriendly, abstinence-only sex-ed reliant Texas now leads the nation in both teen pregnancy and repeat teen pregnancy, and Gonorrhea, Syphilis, Chlamydia in Texas have continued a multi-year rise according to official TX 2007 statistics.
Loveschild’s Argument: EPIC FAIL
5 Jews, Christians, Muslims all share the belief in the same God. We constitute the vast majority throughout all nations of this earth. Yours are nothing but a fringe group that are seeking to disrupt life and our communion with our Creator.
Answer: Muslims believe in a god who is utterly transcendent, who is non-anthropomorphic, and to whom we humans are required to submit in total obedience. Christians believe in a god who is partially transcendent and partially immanent, who is three persons in one (and quite anthropomorphic), and whom we are expected to show love. Jews believe in a god who is less transcendent, more immanent, and who has a special role for the Jewish tribes, singled out from all humanity.
I believe Loveschild is dangerously psychotic.
Loveschild’s Argument: FAIL
6 Again, What's the birth rate amongst same sex unions? 0
See Number 1.
More...
Answer: What’s the birth rate among couples who marry after child-bearing age? 0
Loveschild’s Argument: FAIL
2 gay marriage does away with the universal standards that are important to family stability leaving the institution of marriage exposed and vulnerable with its doors open to an anything goes mentality, infectious diseases and all sorts aberrant behaviors.
Answer: The universal standards that are important to family are support, love, financial and emotional stability, and the ability to make important health and financial decision for the partner in the marriage in the case of a debilitating injury or illness, and to be able take advantage of the laws that apply to married couples regardless of gender.
Loveschild’s Argument: FAIL
3 The arbitrary changing of the definition of a fundamental social institution like marriage by either politicians who don't see themselves as accountable to the people they're voted in to represent, who have in fact consigned the family to oblivion or by activist courts that have a total disregard for the Constitution of our nation is by itself the mere definition of disregarding the law.
Answer: 14th Amendment, Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Loveschild’s Argument: FAIL
4 Its and attack on marriage for the same reasons I explained in 2. It will reinforce those negative changes. Polygamy, bestiality, increase in preventable sexual transmitted diseases will all contribute to the inevitable destruction of the pillars of marriage and our society.
Answer: Heterosexual divorce rate: 50%, Percentage of adult population of Zimbabwe with AIDS: 24.06% as of 2001, Zimbabwe gay marriages: 0, from http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/5/18/… : Almost four years after the alleged civilization-destroying event, MA is second in the US with the lowest rate of divorce, second to Pennsylvania (the MA rate is 2.27 per 1,000, the PA rate is 2.2 per 1,000) and MA rates of teen pregnancy, already close to the lowest in the US, continue to drop, down over 2% in 2006. By contrast, gay marriage-unfriendly, abstinence-only sex-ed reliant Texas now leads the nation in both teen pregnancy and repeat teen pregnancy, and Gonorrhea, Syphilis, Chlamydia in Texas have continued a multi-year rise according to official TX 2007 statistics.
Loveschild’s Argument: EPIC FAIL
5 Jews, Christians, Muslims all share the belief in the same God. We constitute the vast majority throughout all nations of this earth. Yours are nothing but a fringe group that are seeking to disrupt life and our communion with our Creator.
Answer: Muslims believe in a god who is utterly transcendent, who is non-anthropomorphic, and to whom we humans are required to submit in total obedience. Christians believe in a god who is partially transcendent and partially immanent, who is three persons in one (and quite anthropomorphic), and whom we are expected to show love. Jews believe in a god who is less transcendent, more immanent, and who has a special role for the Jewish tribes, singled out from all humanity.
I believe Loveschild is dangerously psychotic.
Loveschild’s Argument: FAIL
6 Again, What's the birth rate amongst same sex unions? 0
See Number 1.
77
Right back at you:
1) I know two lesbian couples that have children via IVF. This argument fails on its prima facie test. Even with gay men, discounting the fact that they could have a child via surrogacy, adoption of children who are not in loving homes makes our world a better more loving place. Finally, please give me some factual background in these "plunging birthrates or demographic winters" to which you refer.
2) This argument is, again, based on sand. First, what are these "universal standards"? Marriage means different things to different cultures at different times throughout history. To peg "marriage" to one culture's definition at one point of time is fatuous. Second, all of the issues to which you refer existed before the legalization of gay marriage anywhere on the planet and they will continue to exist afterward.
3) Arbitrary? As MirrorMan said @33 "debate, criticism, and not one, not two, but three votes, including the Veto override" This is not arbitrary, but a decision based on sober consideration. As to accountability: they were voted in and, if the people don't agree with their representation, they can be voted out. That's the definition of their job and the foundation of our system of government. The courts have made decisions with which both sides of various arguments have disagreed, but in the end I believe the moral compass of the nation is reflected in their guidance.
4) Again, an argument based on unfounded fears. I understand it's scary for you and hopefully one day you will realize that none of it came to pass.
5) From Wikipedia: Hinduism: 781 million; Buddhism: 324 m; Chinese traditional: 394m; tribal religions: 300m; African traditional: about 100m, etc. These religions do not recognize the god of Mohammed, Adam and Jesus as their deity. Your narrow world-view is, again, wrong -- it's not a "vast" majority. And there are sects of the religions you mention who are not afraid of gays and don't persecute them in the name of their religion.
Second, you know nothing of my beliefs, other than the fact that I don't preach hatred while swathing myself in the borrowed robes of a religion that is based on love.
6) Wrong again, as mentioned above. Have you ever MET a gay couple? They're just like us -- they're ALL DIFFERENT. Some gays want to have lots of unprotected sex with multiple partners -- so do some straights. Some want to settle down with another person, have kids and watch them grow up -- just like some straight people. The moment you reduce a group to a stereotype, you are no longer dealing with humans. And then it's very easy to hate.
I really pity you, Loveschild. I hope someday you see that you have nothing to fear from homosexuals and when you do, I hope that no one sees the vitriol you once spewed.
More...
1) I know two lesbian couples that have children via IVF. This argument fails on its prima facie test. Even with gay men, discounting the fact that they could have a child via surrogacy, adoption of children who are not in loving homes makes our world a better more loving place. Finally, please give me some factual background in these "plunging birthrates or demographic winters" to which you refer.
2) This argument is, again, based on sand. First, what are these "universal standards"? Marriage means different things to different cultures at different times throughout history. To peg "marriage" to one culture's definition at one point of time is fatuous. Second, all of the issues to which you refer existed before the legalization of gay marriage anywhere on the planet and they will continue to exist afterward.
3) Arbitrary? As MirrorMan said @33 "debate, criticism, and not one, not two, but three votes, including the Veto override" This is not arbitrary, but a decision based on sober consideration. As to accountability: they were voted in and, if the people don't agree with their representation, they can be voted out. That's the definition of their job and the foundation of our system of government. The courts have made decisions with which both sides of various arguments have disagreed, but in the end I believe the moral compass of the nation is reflected in their guidance.
4) Again, an argument based on unfounded fears. I understand it's scary for you and hopefully one day you will realize that none of it came to pass.
5) From Wikipedia: Hinduism: 781 million; Buddhism: 324 m; Chinese traditional: 394m; tribal religions: 300m; African traditional: about 100m, etc. These religions do not recognize the god of Mohammed, Adam and Jesus as their deity. Your narrow world-view is, again, wrong -- it's not a "vast" majority. And there are sects of the religions you mention who are not afraid of gays and don't persecute them in the name of their religion.
Second, you know nothing of my beliefs, other than the fact that I don't preach hatred while swathing myself in the borrowed robes of a religion that is based on love.
6) Wrong again, as mentioned above. Have you ever MET a gay couple? They're just like us -- they're ALL DIFFERENT. Some gays want to have lots of unprotected sex with multiple partners -- so do some straights. Some want to settle down with another person, have kids and watch them grow up -- just like some straight people. The moment you reduce a group to a stereotype, you are no longer dealing with humans. And then it's very easy to hate.
I really pity you, Loveschild. I hope someday you see that you have nothing to fear from homosexuals and when you do, I hope that no one sees the vitriol you once spewed.
78
kim in portland @ 75
thanks for your kind and well wishes.
when i was a young budding romantic ( aged ten) i wondered if i would ever be able to fall in love,go on dates, go steady, get engaged and be married to a boy. i accepted that it wasn't possible and tried every conceivable trick and effort to do otherwise. and for awhile i believed what i was taught, what my churches taught, that my desire was simply sexual, even as i knew it wasn't . some time in my fourth year of bible school i stumbled upon the story of king david and jonathan and their love as being described as being greater than the love of women ( 2 samuel 1:26 ). thus began my long ascent out of the depths of self hatred and onwards to finding the partner i hope to share the rest of this too short journey. all i ever wanted was for this love to recognized, sanctified, and supported. that it could be legal was never a hope for me ? but i've come to see the importance of legal recognition in prodding others in the faith to rethink their interpretation of relationships - whatever loveschild and her ilk believe, theirs is an interpretation of relationship that they're vainly trying to squeeze into their narrow view of faith and impose on everyone else.
so i want to thank you for all your posts representing your empathic and well reasoned support of the issue from within the faith.
and much love to the good people of iowa, vermont and soon washington for doing the right thing in this regard.
thanks for your kind and well wishes.
when i was a young budding romantic ( aged ten) i wondered if i would ever be able to fall in love,go on dates, go steady, get engaged and be married to a boy. i accepted that it wasn't possible and tried every conceivable trick and effort to do otherwise. and for awhile i believed what i was taught, what my churches taught, that my desire was simply sexual, even as i knew it wasn't . some time in my fourth year of bible school i stumbled upon the story of king david and jonathan and their love as being described as being greater than the love of women ( 2 samuel 1:26 ). thus began my long ascent out of the depths of self hatred and onwards to finding the partner i hope to share the rest of this too short journey. all i ever wanted was for this love to recognized, sanctified, and supported. that it could be legal was never a hope for me ? but i've come to see the importance of legal recognition in prodding others in the faith to rethink their interpretation of relationships - whatever loveschild and her ilk believe, theirs is an interpretation of relationship that they're vainly trying to squeeze into their narrow view of faith and impose on everyone else.
so i want to thank you for all your posts representing your empathic and well reasoned support of the issue from within the faith.
and much love to the good people of iowa, vermont and soon washington for doing the right thing in this regard.
79
I have a question for Loveschild:
Why are you posting here?
You know that you're not even trying to convince anyone here of anything. You know that this blog is dedicated to your gay civil rights opponents. You're not trolling either, despite what some say.
So what's your motivation? Does it just make you feel better to get in our faces? Does it make you feel like you're doing something against the sodomites who blog here? What is it, Loveschild?
PS - you and your friends may personally eschew violence (and good for you, sincerely), but rhetoric like "families are UNDER ATTACK" will cause the more violent members of your side to feel justified in taking violent action. That's why you're going to be to blame when blood spills.
Why are you posting here?
You know that you're not even trying to convince anyone here of anything. You know that this blog is dedicated to your gay civil rights opponents. You're not trolling either, despite what some say.
So what's your motivation? Does it just make you feel better to get in our faces? Does it make you feel like you're doing something against the sodomites who blog here? What is it, Loveschild?
PS - you and your friends may personally eschew violence (and good for you, sincerely), but rhetoric like "families are UNDER ATTACK" will cause the more violent members of your side to feel justified in taking violent action. That's why you're going to be to blame when blood spills.
80
If our best efforts are done without love we fail. If we can not love others as well, if not better, than ourselves we fail. If we do not love justice and mercy and seek oppression for the oppressed than we do not know how to love. Without love we are nothing.
Those of us who are Christians, understand this is Holy Week. In this week, those of us who believe, can we not remember that Christ died for all. He died for love, as His children we are to die for love as well. Don't we understand His own words?
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." Luke 4: 18-19
Today the state of Vermont sided with freedom, they granted equal state marriage rights. They voted to love their neighbors.
Think before you use your words and actions to deny another human equal civil rights. Are you honoring the one who died for you? Are you honoring his work to bring freedom to the oppressed? Are you loving your neighbor as yourself as he commanded you? Without love we fail.
My apologize to all those wonderful SLOG readers who do not share my faith. I mean no disrespect to your thoughts, beliefs or opinons. I appreciate how you all enrich my life, and ask me to think outside myself.
Those of us who are Christians, understand this is Holy Week. In this week, those of us who believe, can we not remember that Christ died for all. He died for love, as His children we are to die for love as well. Don't we understand His own words?
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." Luke 4: 18-19
Today the state of Vermont sided with freedom, they granted equal state marriage rights. They voted to love their neighbors.
Think before you use your words and actions to deny another human equal civil rights. Are you honoring the one who died for you? Are you honoring his work to bring freedom to the oppressed? Are you loving your neighbor as yourself as he commanded you? Without love we fail.
My apologize to all those wonderful SLOG readers who do not share my faith. I mean no disrespect to your thoughts, beliefs or opinons. I appreciate how you all enrich my life, and ask me to think outside myself.
81
reverend dr dj riz @ 78,
Thank you for sharing your story. You and the state of Vermont made my day.
Thank you for sharing your story. You and the state of Vermont made my day.
82
@ 80, this onetime christian, now agnostic appreciates your posts. I'd probably still be christian if more were like you and fewer were like Loveschild.
83
"Nuclear" families are an invention of western/european cultures that is only 150 years old and came about as part of how the industrial revolution changed work patterns. It has not had a good track record of success. Before that and in non-western cultures extended families were the norm for thousands of years. I'm so glad Vermont voted to strengthen heterosexual marriages by legalizing gay marriages. Straights have been destroying the institution of marriage as fast as they can and now have elevated the divorce rate to 50% and climbing. Anyone who has been to las vegas (can we say "Britney"?) knows that marriage has just become a sham for bored straight people who want a cheap thrill or who want tolay claim to the wealthier person's money by legal thievery, or who want legal cover to beat and kill their spouses. Legalizing gay marriage and allowing same-sex couples who actually care about the institution access to it may be the only thing that can save the institution. And the charity of heart and compassion gay couples have to adopt and care for all those abandoned children that straight couples gave birth to and then got bored with, there is the true example of christ's love in action on earth! Gay people are god's messiah on earth and the christianist's who take his name in vain and persecute them will have their day of reckoning.
84
Some say that same-sex marriage will lead to polygamous marriage, but there's one problem with that theory: In the last decade 7 countries have now allowed gender-neutral marriage (Netherlands, Belgium, Spain, Canada, South Africa, Norway and Sweden). Not one of these countries allows polygamous marriages.
In addition, there are about 48 countries in the world which DO allow polygamous marriages and NOT one, NOT one is even close to considering gay marriage. These are countries where polygamy has historically been common. These countries probably won't be having gay marriage any time soon since the MAJORITY have laws calling homosexuality a crime. That's right, a man can have more than one wife, but if a man sleeps with another man he can be put to prison and even be executed in some countries.
That should be evidence right there, that wanting to marry ONE person who happens to be the same gender is NOT the same as wanting to legally have multiple wives.
In addition, there are about 48 countries in the world which DO allow polygamous marriages and NOT one, NOT one is even close to considering gay marriage. These are countries where polygamy has historically been common. These countries probably won't be having gay marriage any time soon since the MAJORITY have laws calling homosexuality a crime. That's right, a man can have more than one wife, but if a man sleeps with another man he can be put to prison and even be executed in some countries.
That should be evidence right there, that wanting to marry ONE person who happens to be the same gender is NOT the same as wanting to legally have multiple wives.
85
Hey Hateschild!
"Life endowed by our Creator is our only rhetoric."
In this country, we have things called constitutions, which include rhetorics of equality and due process. Get your 'Creator' off my government.... My Creator is fine with family--in fact, all families.
"Life endowed by our Creator is our only rhetoric."
In this country, we have things called constitutions, which include rhetorics of equality and due process. Get your 'Creator' off my government.... My Creator is fine with family--in fact, all families.
86
@69. It is a happy day. But but miserable bottom sucking creatures often like to slurp the joy out of anything they can. Hence, the absolute lies and hate of so called 'Loveschild.'
I pray: Dear Jesus, save us from your followers!! Amen.
I pray: Dear Jesus, save us from your followers!! Amen.
87
I just read that Iowa's govenor is against amending the state constitution in order to overrule the Iowa Supreme Court.
Another reason to smile.
Another reason to smile.
88
Riz, I am so thrilled for you and your partner. Over the years I have read with interest and vicarious happiness the little stories you have chosen to share with us about your partner and your relationship. (I have my own, and I couldn't be happier, but it's always nice to read of others' happiness as well.) I am delighted that you are able to marry him within your faith, and that your faith community embraces you both. You are a shining example for those who would like to deny you this simple pursuit of happiness in the name of their faith. I wish you a happy, healthy, long life together. I know that's all my partner and I want. Go be happy now.
89
After this passed by a non-veto-proof majority (in at least one of VT's congressional bodies, forget which), I didn't even dare think that this would happen. I kinda doubt that I've ever been happier to have been proven wrong in my life. Fuckin' a.
90
I wonder whether the recent events in Iowa and Vermont (esp. the Iowa court ruling and their legal justifications) will affect the pending ruling by the California justices on Prop. 8...
91
Vermont DID NOT legalize "Same-Sex" anything. Nor did Iowa for that matter. And since we're on the topic of marriage, neither Massachusetts nor Connecticut legalized "same-sex" anything. All four states have allowed Gay and Lesbian couples to get a marriage license. Not a Straight Marriage, not a Gay Marriage, Not a Same-sex Marriage, but a "marriage license". Start taking back the debate and more and more states will allow Gay and Lesbian couples to have what Straight couples get; A Marriage.
93
listen up, folks. albeit loveschild is not gonna change her nasty-ass ways, she does serve an important function: sharpening your writing and debating skills. a lotta lotta people think like her and it's important to refute this bullshit whenever you see it posted on the interwebs. to paraphrase the motto of the texas rangers, articulate poster can beat a mean-spirited poster every time, if the articulate poster is in the right and keeps a comin'. keep postin' loveschild, we're ready for yah!
94
77 You are defending demise and urging people to build their houses on unstable foundations. There is no good in what you are promoting no matter how much you seek to vilify people like me, life, that what's noble and pure will always shine through in the end like in the Wise and Foolish Builders parable on Matthew 7:24-25 : 24"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. Urging others to do the opposite does not make you a good person in the eyes of any religion.
79 Even though you refuse to believe it I love my fellow brethren who struggle with this issue and that's why I care to come here to let them know that the way to get out of the hole is not to keep digging yourself more into it. Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." It's out of love of both you and my family, my neighborhood my nation because we're all interconnected and what affects you if it's not resolved can soon come to visit my doorstep as these late rulings in Vermont and Iowa have shown.
79 Even though you refuse to believe it I love my fellow brethren who struggle with this issue and that's why I care to come here to let them know that the way to get out of the hole is not to keep digging yourself more into it. Mark 2:17 On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." It's out of love of both you and my family, my neighborhood my nation because we're all interconnected and what affects you if it's not resolved can soon come to visit my doorstep as these late rulings in Vermont and Iowa have shown.
95
Thanks, Kim in Portland, for keeping up the good fight. It's heartening to know that someone out there has the energy and resiliency to face the hate-slingers. It's because of people like you that the world will be a better place.
I'm smiling at this wonderful news, and grateful for everyone who has helped to make it happen. Oh, allow me a moment of sappiness.
I'm smiling at this wonderful news, and grateful for everyone who has helped to make it happen. Oh, allow me a moment of sappiness.
97
Why is it that I'm always having to be so disappointed with the Washington State Legislature and Courts? How many good examples have to be set before us, before we have the "courage" do do what's right? Example after example... Can't we be first in anything, or do we ALWAYS require validation by others? Fucking embarrassing.
98
Kim in Portland, thank you for your comments. It's great to hear intelligent and well reasoned arguments from a person of faith against the voices of hatred and bigotry. God bless you.
99
95 and 98, thank you. I appreciate your kind words.
On Mark 2:17, or rather Mark 2: 13-17 because scripture should never be removed from its context. It is true that Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous but the sinners." Lovely, and comforting to a sinner like me.
Still, who was he addressing? From reading the entire passage (and corresponding passages that match in Matthew 9: 9-13, and Luke 5: 27-32) we understand that Jesus was dinning with individuals that the Pharisees and the teachers of the law considered "dirty", "impure", "sinners", "unclean" and the "immoral". Jesus was sulling himself and making himself ritually unclean in the eyes of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law. During the meal the Pharisees and teachers of law arrived and began to complain. That is when he said he did not come to call the righteous but the sinners. The passage in Matthew adds to the quote "On hearing this Jesus said, 'It is not the healthy that need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous but the sinners." Jesus was referencing a passage from the Old Testament Book of Hosea, where God tells his people that their work and sacrifice is worthless to Him because they have no mercy. Because they have no love.
To wrap this all up. The Mark passage is one of Jesus' many indictment of the hypocricy of the Pharisees and teachers of the law (the Moral Majority of his time) who thought they understood Him. The Pharisees and teachers of the Law thought they were right with God, and their pride had blinded them to the depth of their sickness. This is the radical Jesus I love, if he walked the earth today would be found having a beer at a leather bar and sleeping under the freeway offramps. I would want to sit and drink beer with Him. Imagine sitting with the one who knew every crappy thing you ever said and every awful thing you thought of or did, and knowing you were wanted, valued and accepted completely (and none of it was held against you). My Jesus nailed his arms open wide for us all to run to. He didn't come to condemn, He came to pour out His life as a ransome for us all.
Sorry, to any who found this over the top. I just couldn't turn away when one of my favorite verses was posted.
More...
On Mark 2:17, or rather Mark 2: 13-17 because scripture should never be removed from its context. It is true that Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous but the sinners." Lovely, and comforting to a sinner like me.
Still, who was he addressing? From reading the entire passage (and corresponding passages that match in Matthew 9: 9-13, and Luke 5: 27-32) we understand that Jesus was dinning with individuals that the Pharisees and the teachers of the law considered "dirty", "impure", "sinners", "unclean" and the "immoral". Jesus was sulling himself and making himself ritually unclean in the eyes of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law. During the meal the Pharisees and teachers of law arrived and began to complain. That is when he said he did not come to call the righteous but the sinners. The passage in Matthew adds to the quote "On hearing this Jesus said, 'It is not the healthy that need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' For I have not come to call the righteous but the sinners." Jesus was referencing a passage from the Old Testament Book of Hosea, where God tells his people that their work and sacrifice is worthless to Him because they have no mercy. Because they have no love.
To wrap this all up. The Mark passage is one of Jesus' many indictment of the hypocricy of the Pharisees and teachers of the law (the Moral Majority of his time) who thought they understood Him. The Pharisees and teachers of the Law thought they were right with God, and their pride had blinded them to the depth of their sickness. This is the radical Jesus I love, if he walked the earth today would be found having a beer at a leather bar and sleeping under the freeway offramps. I would want to sit and drink beer with Him. Imagine sitting with the one who knew every crappy thing you ever said and every awful thing you thought of or did, and knowing you were wanted, valued and accepted completely (and none of it was held against you). My Jesus nailed his arms open wide for us all to run to. He didn't come to condemn, He came to pour out His life as a ransome for us all.
Sorry, to any who found this over the top. I just couldn't turn away when one of my favorite verses was posted.
100
@94 --
Now she thinks she's Jesus.
I read these comments knowing I would see her circular logic, but luckily everyone else was great! Thanks for the love.
Now she thinks she's Jesus.
I read these comments knowing I would see her circular logic, but luckily everyone else was great! Thanks for the love.
101
@99. Wow... I can only assume that you're suggesting (in quoting, "I have not come to call the righteous but the sinners") that I am among "the sinners"? If you're differentiating between us, who are "the righteous"? I was really trying to remain positive, here. I've appreciated your support.
Vermont has made marriage available to all it's citizens, and there is no judgement of "sinner" or "righteous". It's late, so perhaps I've misread your thoughts, or taken them out of their intended context. I love you and your efforts.
Vermont has made marriage available to all it's citizens, and there is no judgement of "sinner" or "righteous". It's late, so perhaps I've misread your thoughts, or taken them out of their intended context. I love you and your efforts.
102
Hi Rose @ 101,
To you, I was just saying thank you.
The Mark passage was just an explanation of what someone earlier posted. The "sinners" in that passage are the Pharasees and teachers of the law who were to blind to understand that they were sick.
I wasn't calling you a sinner. I am very sorry if that came out that way.
To you, I was just saying thank you.
The Mark passage was just an explanation of what someone earlier posted. The "sinners" in that passage are the Pharasees and teachers of the law who were to blind to understand that they were sick.
I wasn't calling you a sinner. I am very sorry if that came out that way.
103
Rainman @ 98,
Thank you for your kind words.
My post @ 99 is not referring to you in anyway. I should have made two different posts. 1) To thank both you and the lovely rose. and 2) To explain the irony of using the Mark verse (that was quoted earlier this evening).
Sorry, if you thought I was referring to you.
Thank you for your kind words.
My post @ 99 is not referring to you in anyway. I should have made two different posts. 1) To thank both you and the lovely rose. and 2) To explain the irony of using the Mark verse (that was quoted earlier this evening).
Sorry, if you thought I was referring to you.
105
rose @ 101,
I feel really bad that I didn't make two different posts. I feel really bad that I have hurt you. I am so very sorry.
You are correct Vermont making marriage available to all is not a judgement to any.
I'm tired so I hope that I am making myself clear. If not I will try again in the morning.
Best wishes.
I feel really bad that I didn't make two different posts. I feel really bad that I have hurt you. I am so very sorry.
You are correct Vermont making marriage available to all is not a judgement to any.
I'm tired so I hope that I am making myself clear. If not I will try again in the morning.
Best wishes.
108
@94: Ah, Loveschild, too bad you couldn't think up any cogent reply. You just don't get it -- quoting scriptures doesn't mean anything to someone who doesn't accept them as, pardon the pun, gospel.
Don't get me wrong -- I think the bible is an excellent book of stories. I think in some places it gives decent examples of how to live your life (do unto others as you would have them do unto you, let he that is without sin cast the first stone, love your neighbor as yourself), but I do not trust the parts that contradict those precepts. Too many humans have had their grubby paws on the pen over the past 2000 years, what with translations, revisions, changes to benefit one pope or another, etc. It's like a 2000 year old game of telephone played in several languages.
And most of all it is not the ultimate argument ender. Sorry, but you can't say "but the bible says so" and expect everyone to acquiesce. Perhaps in your church that works -- because everyone believes it's all true -- but the rest of the world doesn't work that way.
Don't get me wrong -- I think the bible is an excellent book of stories. I think in some places it gives decent examples of how to live your life (do unto others as you would have them do unto you, let he that is without sin cast the first stone, love your neighbor as yourself), but I do not trust the parts that contradict those precepts. Too many humans have had their grubby paws on the pen over the past 2000 years, what with translations, revisions, changes to benefit one pope or another, etc. It's like a 2000 year old game of telephone played in several languages.
And most of all it is not the ultimate argument ender. Sorry, but you can't say "but the bible says so" and expect everyone to acquiesce. Perhaps in your church that works -- because everyone believes it's all true -- but the rest of the world doesn't work that way.
109
Loveschild @ 94, if you really ARE trying to persuade us to come around to your viewpoint, I'll be as kind as I can be and suggest that you refine your method. It's not working as is.
Kim, thanks for the context.
Kim, thanks for the context.
110
Cracker Jack @ 108,
You are right. You should try, although it is long and tedious, reading it in ancient Hebrew and Greek. It blows my mind, especially those dreaded (7) seven scriptures, they don't say what many believe they say. In fact there are 25 plus years of compiled research between ancient linguists, historians, archeologists, theologians, and biblical scholars that suggest we Christians should shut up on the subject of homosexuality, not to mention documented writings of same-sex marriage ceremonies many of them performed in the Vatician, also suggest that we need to be quiet. It breaks my heart that we lack the humility to question "tradition" and "traditional interpretations" of the Bible. What do we have to be afraid of? As a Christian, I'd rather own our mistakes and bigotry here on Earth and beg forgiveness, rather than answer for it later in heaven.
You are right. You should try, although it is long and tedious, reading it in ancient Hebrew and Greek. It blows my mind, especially those dreaded (7) seven scriptures, they don't say what many believe they say. In fact there are 25 plus years of compiled research between ancient linguists, historians, archeologists, theologians, and biblical scholars that suggest we Christians should shut up on the subject of homosexuality, not to mention documented writings of same-sex marriage ceremonies many of them performed in the Vatician, also suggest that we need to be quiet. It breaks my heart that we lack the humility to question "tradition" and "traditional interpretations" of the Bible. What do we have to be afraid of? As a Christian, I'd rather own our mistakes and bigotry here on Earth and beg forgiveness, rather than answer for it later in heaven.
111
Kim --
I'd love to, but learning Hebrew & Greek first means I won't start for a decade or so! :)
I think where most people go wrong is that they think that the bible as they pick it up in Barnes & Noble is what it was, word for word, as when its original authors (I'll even grant Author -- the BIG author) first put ink to scroll (or inspired someone to do so).
I'd love to, but learning Hebrew & Greek first means I won't start for a decade or so! :)
I think where most people go wrong is that they think that the bible as they pick it up in Barnes & Noble is what it was, word for word, as when its original authors (I'll even grant Author -- the BIG author) first put ink to scroll (or inspired someone to do so).
112
I don't speak Hebrew or Greek, which means using a lexicon. Working through the dreaded 7 was a lot of work. Thank heavens, there are several books thanks to that 25+ years of study I can use.
113
109 If me lying to you and telling you that what you're defending is not destructive is the only way to persuade you to come around to my side then I can't do that. I love all of God's creation (including you) too much to become a part of that just so that I can endear myself to the false ideologies people like you and Kim profess. I want you to be free not a captive so I dear not follow people like her on the blasphemy and corruption of the Sacred Scriptures she posts here.
I still hope you will come to see the light that only our Creator can provide in your life and embrace the love of life.
I still hope you will come to see the light that only our Creator can provide in your life and embrace the love of life.
114
Gee, thanks Loveschild! I appreciate being called a blasphemer and a corrupter. Great example of loving your neighbor as yourself.
I am sincerely happy for you that you are reading the Bible now. Just think about a month ago you described yourself as not very religous, not attending church, and knowing very little about the Sacred Scriptures you speak of. Keep up the good work.
In Christ's name you forgiven, yet again.
I am sincerely happy for you that you are reading the Bible now. Just think about a month ago you described yourself as not very religous, not attending church, and knowing very little about the Sacred Scriptures you speak of. Keep up the good work.
In Christ's name you forgiven, yet again.
115
@48 (Mackro mackro)
Vermont IS the first state to legalize marriage for all, by an act of legislature.
And keep in mind these are Vermont Republicans. They're different from other Republicans--some of them are, at least. Six of them (in the House) did vote to override the bill. Without their votes, it wouldn't have passed.
Vermont IS the first state to legalize marriage for all, by an act of legislature.
And keep in mind these are Vermont Republicans. They're different from other Republicans--some of them are, at least. Six of them (in the House) did vote to override the bill. Without their votes, it wouldn't have passed.
116
@ 113, you lie every time you characterize sexual orientation as a choice, or something people just engage in. Too late to say you're not doing that.
And you love me? Don't make me laugh. You've threatened and insulted me personally. You would have no trouble refraining from that, no matter how angry our exchanges make you, if you felt any love for me.
And you love me? Don't make me laugh. You've threatened and insulted me personally. You would have no trouble refraining from that, no matter how angry our exchanges make you, if you felt any love for me.
117
116 There's one thing I do regret from my responses to you and you alluded to it on another post. That is my comment about me wanting to slap you, I apologize for responding that way to you. No matter how disrespectful and vitriolic your comments about me and those of my ancestry have been I should've never let you get the best of me like that. You don't know any better, your judgement is clouded by falsehoods, Again I apologize to you Matt from Denver.
118
116
If someone really loves you they will give you a cold dose of reality and not say whatever you want to hear to keep from bruising your hypersensitive feelings:(
Take responsibility for your choices and life.
If you take the TRUTH as an insult and threat that indicates a huge failing on your part.
If someone really loves you they will give you a cold dose of reality and not say whatever you want to hear to keep from bruising your hypersensitive feelings:(
Take responsibility for your choices and life.
If you take the TRUTH as an insult and threat that indicates a huge failing on your part.
119
@ 118, you wouldn't know the truth if it came up and rimmed you, sockpuppet coward.
@ 117, There is no insult in comparing the civil rights struggle of African Americans and the equal rights struggle of GLBT people. If you feel slighted by such a comparison, it's entirely a feeling generated within yourself and does not exist in my words or arguments. If you're capable of respecting my point of view at all, you'll be able to recognize that.
That said, I forgive you, and likewise take back calling you a bitch.
@ 117, There is no insult in comparing the civil rights struggle of African Americans and the equal rights struggle of GLBT people. If you feel slighted by such a comparison, it's entirely a feeling generated within yourself and does not exist in my words or arguments. If you're capable of respecting my point of view at all, you'll be able to recognize that.
That said, I forgive you, and likewise take back calling you a bitch.
120
Jesus was a Rabbi - with thousands of believers.
His status was high. No he would not be at the Cuff.
Sorry.
His status was high. No he would not be at the Cuff.
Sorry.
122
@120- Jesus hung out with prostitutes and lepers. He'd more likely be at The Cuff than hanging with the aristocracy.
123
Yes, he hung out with the people the relgious leaders frowned upon. That's one of the reasons I love him. At heart I understand that I am one of the frowned upon.
124
By which I mean that I understand my own poverty and recognize my motivations are often not correct.
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