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News & ArtsTuesday, April 7, 2009
Homo Required Viewing
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 7:56 PM
Iowa state Senate Majority Leader Mike Gronstal blocks an attempt to amend the state constitution to ban gay marriage...
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Maybe SLOG covered it already, but I learned today about another guy who has come out in favor of gay marriage, Steve Schmidt. Yeah, that Steve Schmidt.
http://www.washblade.com/thelatest/thela…
http://www.washblade.com/thelatest/thela…
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The senator could not be more wrong, the vast majority people do care their voices are just drowned by all the noise the small but loud fringe groups make. It is those groups that seek to grab all the attention on this issue by any means, whether it is through intimidation or through undemocratic tactics aided by corrupt politicians and judges. Senator for the sake of our nation I hope that silent majority in Iowa that you have dismissed as not caring rise up and shout massively that they do. May life and the family prevail over those that seek to silence them.
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@4 - First, the people's voice is heard through their elected representatives. Secondly, if it were up to the people's voice, southern blacks would still be slaves and women would still be chattel.
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@5
The elected representatives are the servants of the people, not the other way around.
If the people want to vote on the issue it is arrogant for their elected servants to deny them the opportunity.
The elected representatives are the servants of the people, not the other way around.
If the people want to vote on the issue it is arrogant for their elected servants to deny them the opportunity.
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I FUCKIN LOVE IOWA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And, 9 FTW. Yeah, that's right... "You have already lost."
Human rights, civil rights, should not be subject to majority-rule. They are too important for that.
And, 9 FTW. Yeah, that's right... "You have already lost."
Human rights, civil rights, should not be subject to majority-rule. They are too important for that.
12
This has been a great couple of days. Right now I think I'm in a cabin in the woods, after a long hike, sitting in front of a wood-burning stove, relaxing. The general feeling of happy coziness is just amplified by the sound of rain drops pattering on the roof, when I'm inside warm and dry. Oh wait, that's not raindrops; it's the little pieces of Loveschild's spittle splattering impotently off her computer screen, and dripping down onto her lap. No matter. Today, it's all good.
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@10: Do you forget that there are a lot of people who support what these representatives have done? They represent us, too.
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@8
It is up to the people's voice. My hometown Atlanta has had a black mayor for 35 years. Virginia, N Carolina and Florida voted for a black President.
You should trust the people.
It is up to the people's voice. My hometown Atlanta has had a black mayor for 35 years. Virginia, N Carolina and Florida voted for a black President.
You should trust the people.
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@13
And those people will get a chance to express their will at the polls. It's called democracy.
And those people will get a chance to express their will at the polls. It's called democracy.
16
It is 100% fucking hilarious to hear the agents of intolerance and homophobia attempt to contort their "activist judges!" shtick around the fact that an honest to goodness legislature voted to confirm gay marriage. Hee-larious.
The founding fathers didn't want direct democracy. They wanted representative democracy. And it's served us pretty fucking well for over 200 years. And usually, where direct democracy has been empowered (CA,OR,WA) the results have been far worse than representative democracy. Like the fact that the richest state in the nation has the worst schools. Just to name an example.
But bleat on, mouthbreathers. Your era is over.
The founding fathers didn't want direct democracy. They wanted representative democracy. And it's served us pretty fucking well for over 200 years. And usually, where direct democracy has been empowered (CA,OR,WA) the results have been far worse than representative democracy. Like the fact that the richest state in the nation has the worst schools. Just to name an example.
But bleat on, mouthbreathers. Your era is over.
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I saw this earlier today. It made me smile. Life is so bittersweet, incredible joy mixed with hatred. It breaks my heart. Good on Iowa, Mass. Conn., and Vermont - they are the home of the free, wish I could say the same for Oregon.
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Is there some pathetic knuckle dragging right wing cell somewhere lately doling out troll duty assignments to troll the slog. Or are the right wing blogs too fucking boring and stupid so they have to come here? I can sort of hang with the frat boys, but this eats up a lot of time and interrupts interesting discussions...
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@7: she specified that it was "her generation" who didn't care. Check out the Prop 8 demographics: http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results… The youngest generation is strongly pro-gay marriage, while the largest anti-gay marriage bloc is the oldest generation (which is why she said they'd "already lost").
@17: Riiiiight...the one full of hate and the other full of acceptance, they're almost twins!
@17: Riiiiight...the one full of hate and the other full of acceptance, they're almost twins!
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According to ABC News, the president of the activist group Iowa Family Policy Center said, "He is denying 2.1 million Iowans of voting age of the right to vote on an issue of great importance to 550,000 schoolchildren"
...
How does gay marriage affect school children?
I mean, there are plenty of OTHER questions of morality and religion that are so much more valid than this issue pulled out of his ass. I guess there is a reason he was voted OUT OF OFFICE over a decade ago. He doesn't speak for the people.
It should also be noted that, as of last July, the decade-old Iowa Family Policy Center has only 17 employees, which is a fraction of a percent of the population of Iowa. "We're not where we hoped to be..." Mike Hurley. So, they have no public support. At all.
Sheesh...the conservative activists are becoming so unhinged these days, now that they're losing.
...
How does gay marriage affect school children?
I mean, there are plenty of OTHER questions of morality and religion that are so much more valid than this issue pulled out of his ass. I guess there is a reason he was voted OUT OF OFFICE over a decade ago. He doesn't speak for the people.
It should also be noted that, as of last July, the decade-old Iowa Family Policy Center has only 17 employees, which is a fraction of a percent of the population of Iowa. "We're not where we hoped to be..." Mike Hurley. So, they have no public support. At all.
Sheesh...the conservative activists are becoming so unhinged these days, now that they're losing.
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Thanks, Dan. Damn, we need some happy news these days, and a little video proof of it is oh-so-very welcome. [sniff]
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Can't you just hear the screeching demonic voices coming out of the religious fanatics in the country the last few days....howling...wailing...like the devil being exorcised from little Regan.
Let the evil out, zealots...come on now...the power of christ compells you....the power of chirst compells you...
The lunatic fringe is sloooowly dying.
Let the evil out, zealots...come on now...the power of christ compells you....the power of chirst compells you...
The lunatic fringe is sloooowly dying.
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That was wonderful. Thanks Dan.
And, it's also great watching the enemies of freedom lose their shit as they see their idiocies fade into history.
And, it's also great watching the enemies of freedom lose their shit as they see their idiocies fade into history.
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That was great.
And Loveschild Shut the fuck up. Nobody cares about your views. Go somewhere else and bitch and moan.
And Loveschild Shut the fuck up. Nobody cares about your views. Go somewhere else and bitch and moan.
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Hey everybody, just wanted to check in for a sec to say, "Iowa, I LOVE you!"
And Loveschild, sometimes hon, you almost make me wish I hadn't said that thing about those without sin throwing the first stone - almost. But, I still love you, you know that. Just in future, stop being such a cunt, 'kay?
Gotta run, Dad's grilling tonight, and I gotta get the Brat's - love you all, be nice to each other.
TT4N!
And Loveschild, sometimes hon, you almost make me wish I hadn't said that thing about those without sin throwing the first stone - almost. But, I still love you, you know that. Just in future, stop being such a cunt, 'kay?
Gotta run, Dad's grilling tonight, and I gotta get the Brat's - love you all, be nice to each other.
TT4N!
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That was so nice to hear.
You know, I wish I could thank every gay person who has ever suffered from the world's fear and anger and hate, and still persevered. Just thank you, because your existence has forced this issue into public debate, and is slowly making the world more civil, loving, and humane for us all.
You know, I wish I could thank every gay person who has ever suffered from the world's fear and anger and hate, and still persevered. Just thank you, because your existence has forced this issue into public debate, and is slowly making the world more civil, loving, and humane for us all.
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Loveschild, there's a blog called The Opine Editorials that you should visit. You'll feel right at home.
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@14 - honey, I lived my whole life in Atlanta, and I'm proud to come from there. But I can also tell you that, had it not been for the initial civil rights changes going around the local constituencies, even if there were a black mayor by *now*, it would have taken a hell of a lot longer.
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Thank you for that, Dan Savage. Thank you.
Showing that on your blog just made me cry a little.
Next time you want to post "No Morality Without Religion," please just show this.
Please. This IS morality without religion.
Show this in reruns.
I'd watch it again and again until the sequel comes out.
Honest to (ahem)... God.
Showing that on your blog just made me cry a little.
Next time you want to post "No Morality Without Religion," please just show this.
Please. This IS morality without religion.
Show this in reruns.
I'd watch it again and again until the sequel comes out.
Honest to (ahem)... God.
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I couldn't disagree more with Loveschild and his/her like-minded commenters. But, I cannot support telling those with opposing views to scram. Our system of government requires an unfettered flow of opposing views. Cordoning off online discussion from unpopular ideas is counterproductive and insular. Welcome challenging opinions. Meet and defeat them. Marriage equality is where we will end up.
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Wow. It is so powerful. Thanks for sharing it. I'm looking forward to hugging my daughter tomorrow.
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FYI - I'm totally not in Iowa or in any way associated with Mike Gronstal, but I've been moved to give to his re-election campaign. Yay for positive reinforcement!
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The Storm is coming-soon to be airing in Iowa and elsewhere. http://www.politico.com/singletitlevideo…
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@ 41....yawn. another backlash against social progress destined to fail as backlashes do. It is like trying to beat back the tide with swords.
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I like the little lightning flash at the beginning.
Nutcases always take things just a scooch too far.
Nutcases always take things just a scooch too far.
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I think Loveschild wrote the script for that! It's the same vague, scare-tactic threats that gay marriage will somehow make straight people suffer. What freedom will be taken away? Why does the doctor have to choose between her faith and her job? What does she have to do with gay marriage??? How are same sex couples changing how that woman lives???? AAAAGGHHH!!!!
Sorry -- narrow-minded brain freeze...
Sorry -- narrow-minded brain freeze...
45
Love, Love, Love,
Love, Love, Love,
There's nothing you can do that can't be done
There's nothing you can say that can't be sung
It's easy
All you need is love
Love, Love, Love,
There's nothing you can do that can't be done
There's nothing you can say that can't be sung
It's easy
All you need is love
46
If you look at right wingnut websites and TV, you'll see that the folks here flipping out over gay marriage are word for word regurgitating the wacky right wingnut talking points.
It's like the guy in Pittsburgh going on that shooting rampage using right wingnut talking points as his justification. The right wing media wants people to panic, and like good little sheep, the wingnuts are panicking. Then the right wing media will blame Obama, gays, etc. for the chaos the right wing created.
It's like the guy in Pittsburgh going on that shooting rampage using right wingnut talking points as his justification. The right wing media wants people to panic, and like good little sheep, the wingnuts are panicking. Then the right wing media will blame Obama, gays, etc. for the chaos the right wing created.
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@ 44,
I did't understand it either. Maybe, I need some coffee or tea. All I heard was, "I am afraid", but not one could actually say how allowing marriage for all was destroying their lives. Their "storm" was not thought provoking at all, or I need more caffine.
I did't understand it either. Maybe, I need some coffee or tea. All I heard was, "I am afraid", but not one could actually say how allowing marriage for all was destroying their lives. Their "storm" was not thought provoking at all, or I need more caffine.
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@ 46, that's why they'll eventually lose. Like the white supremacists before, their rhetoric is patently absurd and that will become obvious to more and more people as time passes and they grow accustomed to gay marriage and acceptance. It's going to take a long time but it's happening.
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@ 46,
And my email box is full of solicitations for money to stop this "crisis" from these groups. Makes me sad.
And my email box is full of solicitations for money to stop this "crisis" from these groups. Makes me sad.
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@ 4, 10, etc., was "direct democracy" something you believed in during Bush v. Gore? My guess is no.
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Every time an interracial couple marries, my sexual potency comes under threat. We need to repeal the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Who's looking out for *my* needs?
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And Gronstal keeps delivering. Every 10 years on the Iowa ballot is a question about whether Iowans want to hold a constitutional convention. This question will be on the ballot in 2010. After Gronstal came out flatly ruling out a vote on a marriage amendment during his term as Sen. Majority leader, which goes through 2010, some Repubs started talking about pushing for a yes vote to hold a Constitutional Convention on the already scheduled ballot question. Gronstal's response, as set forth at the link, was please, please do. We would love to see the Iowa Constitution guarantee health care, a woman's right to choose, and a myriad of other liberal issues. Here's a link giving more of his response which already has Repubs backtracking on the idea. http://mydd.com/story/2009/4/7/223025/74…
Also, because Iowa law requires two successive legislatures to approve any constitutional amendment, each of which last two years, Gronstal's pledge effectively means there will be no vote put before the public before Nov. 2014 unless there is a Constitutional convention.
Also, because Iowa law requires two successive legislatures to approve any constitutional amendment, each of which last two years, Gronstal's pledge effectively means there will be no vote put before the public before Nov. 2014 unless there is a Constitutional convention.
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@16: Totally agree.
@50: Our founding fathers didn't want mob rule for a reason -- most people are not educated about the issues and just believe whatever propaganda they hear on television, on the web, or in their churches.
Our representatives, theoretically, have time to devote their lives to researching the issues, knowing all sides of the story, and can see the bigger picture. The average citizen just doesn't have time to properly educate themselves. I know my first year voting in WA, I was completely confused by some of the choices on the ballot and also confused why *I* should be making a decision about how government committees should be run -- Shouldn't someone who actually sits on them be making that determination?
@50: Our founding fathers didn't want mob rule for a reason -- most people are not educated about the issues and just believe whatever propaganda they hear on television, on the web, or in their churches.
Our representatives, theoretically, have time to devote their lives to researching the issues, knowing all sides of the story, and can see the bigger picture. The average citizen just doesn't have time to properly educate themselves. I know my first year voting in WA, I was completely confused by some of the choices on the ballot and also confused why *I* should be making a decision about how government committees should be run -- Shouldn't someone who actually sits on them be making that determination?
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yeesh. I always imagined as soon as the state legislatures came around on gay marriage, right-wing loonies would stop harping on 'activist judiciaries' writing law and start up with the 'activist legislators' denying the constituents' will bit.
Who knows, when this really is put to a vote somewhere and the progressives win it, maybe they'll start hyperventilating about how activist voters are circumventing god's will. Because ultimately, that's what this all their hot air boils down to.
Who knows, when this really is put to a vote somewhere and the progressives win it, maybe they'll start hyperventilating about how activist voters are circumventing god's will. Because ultimately, that's what this all their hot air boils down to.
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As far as the popular vote vs elected representative argument goes I think everyone should get off their high horse.
If you think you have the popular vote you support direct votes. The same person in a minority position expects your elected representative to "show leadership".
If you think you have the popular vote you support direct votes. The same person in a minority position expects your elected representative to "show leadership".
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42 You couldn't be more hopelessly wrong, this is not a backlash but a revolution. For too long the silent majority has been on the defensive while radical gay groups reek havoc on our families, like the ad says they're no longer content with practising what they want in their bedrooms but they now they want to bring it to my life and my kids school. No more!enough is enough our cry will be heard. Rogue politicians and courts will become once again accountable to us (the people) and not to radical activist groups. It's about time we started to unite to fight productively your illegitimate attacks. The gloves have come off.
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@58: You are not "the people". You are some of the people. Those who support equality in marriage are some of the people.
I wish you could see how your rhetoric mirrors that of the racists who opposed the civil rights movement.
I wish you could see how your rhetoric mirrors that of the racists who opposed the civil rights movement.
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No civil rights have ever been granted by popular vote. Black rights and womens rights have all been granted by "activist judges" or the legislature. So, Loveschild, you should get your ass back in the kitchen and start cooking us up some supper. Leave the thinking to us men folk.
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Who knew moving from Boylston Avenue East on Cap Hill last August to IOWA would mean I can marry my girl? Wow.
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Hey Loveschild you sound like an Iraqi.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/08/world/…
It's hard to tell the difference between the fringey sounding extremism that so easily drips out of the mouths of you Xtians / Shiite's. You are both on a mission to lash out and maim and/or kill anyone that won't obey your sacred fiction.
This is a holy war, isn't it? Maybe you should get on a plane, Love...those are the traditions your type believe in...promise us you will kill yourself out of extreme devotion to blind faith. The religious leaders you leave behind will be very grateful for your $acrifice.
Religious types looooooves their martyrs.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/08/world/…
It's hard to tell the difference between the fringey sounding extremism that so easily drips out of the mouths of you Xtians / Shiite's. You are both on a mission to lash out and maim and/or kill anyone that won't obey your sacred fiction.
This is a holy war, isn't it? Maybe you should get on a plane, Love...those are the traditions your type believe in...promise us you will kill yourself out of extreme devotion to blind faith. The religious leaders you leave behind will be very grateful for your $acrifice.
Religious types looooooves their martyrs.
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http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merch…
Crazy pointless panic is going fast! Get yours while supplies last!
Crazy pointless panic is going fast! Get yours while supplies last!
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No more government according to ignorant myths and superstitions, bigotry masquerading as religion. Equal justice under the law. Fuck you fucking bigots!
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@ 58 - "wreak" havoc......
"Reeking" havoc is when you've been out smoking pot between classes and then you come back in, and... you reek.......
"Reeking" havoc is when you've been out smoking pot between classes and then you come back in, and... you reek.......
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@58: Yea! Let's go.Those damn activists are responsible for my daughter having to go to school with black kids too! And, my neighbors are two different races and they're married! Where will it end, I ask you? I'm not even allowed to deny blacks the vote anymore, how sick is that?
A simple survey of any major Civil Rights advancement in the past 100 years should be enough to show that the "general population" tend to be a bunch of idiots who are willing to be led by the nose by any fear-mongering bigot. Advancements have ALWAYS come from judges and legislators without the backing of these sheep. It should also be enough to let you know how you and your ilk will be remembered in textbooks a hundred years from now.
A simple survey of any major Civil Rights advancement in the past 100 years should be enough to show that the "general population" tend to be a bunch of idiots who are willing to be led by the nose by any fear-mongering bigot. Advancements have ALWAYS come from judges and legislators without the backing of these sheep. It should also be enough to let you know how you and your ilk will be remembered in textbooks a hundred years from now.
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62 my family is here not in Iraq, if there's any battle we need to fight it is here. But rest assured that it's your side the ones that seek violence and extermination not mine. My side loves creation my side is the side of love for the family, values and life. You know what yours is about.
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@58: The gloves have come off? Like they did in 1969, 1973, 1978, 1984, 1989, 1992, 1994 and 2004?
Did you know that without fail, the percentage of those polled who support gay marriage has increased since the early 90s? Did you know that not once has the stat retrograded? Did you realize that the percentage jumped between 2004 and 2009? Did you know that statistically, this trend has mirrored the results of anti-gay legislation, even California? Did you know that the spread between for and against has dropped to 10% from almost 20% in 2004?
And did you know that in the great religious revivals of the early 1900s and late 1900s, church attendance still dropped? And by all reasoning from the writings of the early 1900s, it seems religious leaders were stressed by their overall flock shrinking, even with the fervor of their most dedicated congregation?
If the gloves are really off, if you really think you're the top of the heap, if you really want to stop us, you'll have to kill us, and I don't think you have the support to go through with it.
Did you know that without fail, the percentage of those polled who support gay marriage has increased since the early 90s? Did you know that not once has the stat retrograded? Did you realize that the percentage jumped between 2004 and 2009? Did you know that statistically, this trend has mirrored the results of anti-gay legislation, even California? Did you know that the spread between for and against has dropped to 10% from almost 20% in 2004?
And did you know that in the great religious revivals of the early 1900s and late 1900s, church attendance still dropped? And by all reasoning from the writings of the early 1900s, it seems religious leaders were stressed by their overall flock shrinking, even with the fervor of their most dedicated congregation?
If the gloves are really off, if you really think you're the top of the heap, if you really want to stop us, you'll have to kill us, and I don't think you have the support to go through with it.
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Umm? What exactly are they practicing in the bedroom, that ending the discrimination that prevents them from getting married, will now be brought into the schools? Are people thinking that suddenly married couples will start having sex in the hallways and classrooms?
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@68: You wouldn't know god's love if he french kissed you! PLEASE explain how people who support marriage equality want violence and extermination? That should be good for a giggle.
By the way -- I'm all for creation, I love my family, values and life. I guess we're on the same side! Hooray!
By the way -- I'm all for creation, I love my family, values and life. I guess we're on the same side! Hooray!
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As much as I'm thrilled to see things going well in Iowa, I'm still sore about Prop 8, given I live in California and all.
Then again, maybe Proposition 8 was the warning sign to the rest of the states, that we cannot let it go to a simple majority vote, since as was the case when we were overturning anti-miscegenation laws; the people were still too afraid.
And these days, marketing, rather, campaigning is an advanced science. Check out this take (courtesy of Cracked Magazine) here: http://www.cracked.com/article_16656_6-b…
So it is no surprise we can't trust the sheltered, mainstream majority to protect the rights of minorities. The "...and I can marry a princess" girl that caused giggles in this household genuinely frightened countless others Reminder at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PgjcgqFY…
I only hope our supreme court Jurists feel inspired by the shift in Iowa.
Then again, maybe Proposition 8 was the warning sign to the rest of the states, that we cannot let it go to a simple majority vote, since as was the case when we were overturning anti-miscegenation laws; the people were still too afraid.
And these days, marketing, rather, campaigning is an advanced science. Check out this take (courtesy of Cracked Magazine) here: http://www.cracked.com/article_16656_6-b…
So it is no surprise we can't trust the sheltered, mainstream majority to protect the rights of minorities. The "...and I can marry a princess" girl that caused giggles in this household genuinely frightened countless others Reminder at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PgjcgqFY…
I only hope our supreme court Jurists feel inspired by the shift in Iowa.
76
69 That's why the good people of Cali voted to preserve marriage. That's why no state in which people have been allowed to have their say on this issue has imposed this on the population. Your side has only won battles through impositions , courts, and rogue politicians lobbied by gay groups.
That's why you are scared of the people ,you don't want them to have a say. Just like what you promote your views are despotic in nature and that's why they will fail. I know of five people already that have joined the efforts to combat your attacks. If you truly believed what you posted you wouldn't be afraid of the people having a say on this matter. But you know that your defeat is just around the corner, that's why you lie and deceit to create more confusion but the sun while shine through.
That's why you are scared of the people ,you don't want them to have a say. Just like what you promote your views are despotic in nature and that's why they will fail. I know of five people already that have joined the efforts to combat your attacks. If you truly believed what you posted you wouldn't be afraid of the people having a say on this matter. But you know that your defeat is just around the corner, that's why you lie and deceit to create more confusion but the sun while shine through.
79
@76: Again, pointing out the fact that were it left to "the people", you wouldn't have the freedom to post on the internet.
80
Love, if it weren't for those activists judges, we wouldn't have to listen to your incessant hate filled lies. You'd be in the kitchen where you belong! Why aren't you working to reverse black rights and womens rights like God intended?
81
@ loveschild. After the Civil Righs Act was passed bigots in the south talked about "the gloves coming off" The Civil Rights Movement became stronger and larger because movements grow with victories. The recent gay righs victories in Iowa and Vermont will fuel the drive to legalize same sex marriage in the rest of the country. Over the next few years people who bought the lie that gay marriage will destroy traditional marriage will realize that is not going to happen. Escalating your rhetoric will not do you any good at all. It shows your side's desperation.
The future of this question will be decided by younger voters and they favor marriage equality. Like the legislator in Iowa said your side has already lost. We have backlashed against years of Christian dominance. Iowa and Vermont are just the beginning.
The future of this question will be decided by younger voters and they favor marriage equality. Like the legislator in Iowa said your side has already lost. We have backlashed against years of Christian dominance. Iowa and Vermont are just the beginning.
82
Loveschild @ 68: "But rest assured that it's your side the ones that seek violence and extermination not mine. My side loves creation my side is the side of love for the family, values and life."
Um, which of these values was on display when you said you'd slap me silly?
Um, which of these values was on display when you said you'd slap me silly?
83
78 Go to an African American and tell them that on their face. If I was in Denver I would invite you to say it to mine. You petulant coward.
85
Er, I meant "none," not "no" @ 84.
And I'd gladly say it to your face because I'm righteous. Believe it.
And I'd gladly say it to your face because I'm righteous. Believe it.
86
I'd be happy to tell any African American that thought their rights were granted by the majority of voters that they were wrong. They were granted by judges and the legislature. The judges and legislature were right then, and they are right now. Maybe someday before you meet your maker, you will understand how right they are/were.
87
Here's an African American on gay rights
"When someone asks me, "are gay rights civil rights?" my answer is always, "Of course, they are." Civil rights are positive legal prerogatives: the right to equal treatment before the law. These are the rights shared by everyone. There is no one in the United States who does not, or should not, enjoy or share in enjoying these rights. Gay and lesbian rights are not special rights in any way. It isn't "special" to be free from discrimination. It is an ordinary, universal entitlement of citizenship." Julian Bond, National NAACP Chairman
88
81 Since you're are so cowardly and would never say the things you post here to any African American on their faces, Tell me since you like to draw these false comparisons, Where are the lunch Counter sittings? Where are the refusals to move from your bus seats? Where are your non-gay multi ethnic allies?( you can actually see them on my side as the ad has shown) Where are the religious leaders making your case ?(they're on mine) Where are your families, your kids putting everything on the line being attacked with fire hoses and Police Dogs ? Answer to all of them: No where. Because yours is not a Civil Right, you are not being denied anything, yours is a sexual conduct that you choose to engage in and that unless you decide to make public (like you do to provoke others) no one can detect it. Your sexual behavior cannot be compared with my skin. So your argument is rendered null.
89
Name the time and place Loveschild. I will gladly say it to your face. And then when you slap me, I will do as your 2000 year old dead guy said and "turn the other cheek" and then of course call the police and have you arrested for assault.
91
"Now, no parallel between movements is exact. African-Americans are the only Americans who were enslaved for more than two centuries and people of color carried the badge of who we are on our faces. But we are far from the only people suffering discrimination; sadly, so do many others. And those others deserve the law's protection and civil rights too...." Julian Bond, National NAACP Chairman
92
Being gay does not disqualify you from sitting at a lunch counter, riding in the front of the bus, congregating in public, or voting--but rest assured, if "gay" were a visible characteristic, communities all across the heartland of America would finding excuses to lock them up.
93
@88: Why do you think that we'd be afraid to speak the truth? What you apparently don't get is that (and I'm making an assumption here, but I bet it's true) all of the people supporting equality in marriage probably would have supported the civil rights movement. IT'S THE SAME THING!
94
@ 88, no movement is ever conducted in exactly the same way. There are no jim crow laws for gays, so there are no lunch counter sit ins. The cops aren't dumb enough to do what the Birmingham cops did, so there won't be any dogs set on us.
There are plenty of religious leaders supporting gay marriage, or else NO church at all would perform gay marriages. Look at 87 for some diversity on our side. Hell, I'm STRAIGHT, MARRIED, and a PARENT of two beautiful children. And I'm all for gay marriage. How's that for diversity?
And finally, sexual orientation is set for us. No one has a choice. Unless, you can tell me about when you chose to be straight, which you can't. So my argument is proven and yours null.
I'm glad you've revealed your true, angry, violent and unchristian nature. Now even you won't be able to fool yourself with your "love" talk.
There are plenty of religious leaders supporting gay marriage, or else NO church at all would perform gay marriages. Look at 87 for some diversity on our side. Hell, I'm STRAIGHT, MARRIED, and a PARENT of two beautiful children. And I'm all for gay marriage. How's that for diversity?
And finally, sexual orientation is set for us. No one has a choice. Unless, you can tell me about when you chose to be straight, which you can't. So my argument is proven and yours null.
I'm glad you've revealed your true, angry, violent and unchristian nature. Now even you won't be able to fool yourself with your "love" talk.
95
@76: Who says I'm afraid? Statistics and patience are on my side.
Case-in-point, the Knight Initiative versus Prop 8. Same wording on all but the description, but in 2000 Prop 22 passed with a 23 point margin versus the 5 point margin with Prop 8. In 8 years, the margin shrank by 2 points per year, even with the culture war of 2004.
Case-in-point, the Knight Initiative versus Prop 8. Same wording on all but the description, but in 2000 Prop 22 passed with a 23 point margin versus the 5 point margin with Prop 8. In 8 years, the margin shrank by 2 points per year, even with the culture war of 2004.
96
89 I regret having thought you were of the Muslim faith and apologizing to you cause clearly Sir you're not. If you think you are then look up the word apostate and look in the mirror.
97
Should we take bets on how soon Loveschild straps on a vest full of explosives, walks into the crowd at Pike Place Market and makes herself a martyr?
98
I never EVER once claimed to be Muslim. I just don't like ignorant people like yourself misspelling words. You are the one who automatically assumed based off of my name I guess (for the record, pasty white boy from California here) that I was.
I am a proud atheist (with an occasional dip to agnostic) and will gladly stand up to bigots like you. No need for me to ever apostate. Never had a mind-crutch of a religion to give up.
I am a proud atheist (with an occasional dip to agnostic) and will gladly stand up to bigots like you. No need for me to ever apostate. Never had a mind-crutch of a religion to give up.
99
Saying that discrimination against gays does not exist because there are no firehosings and attack dogs sicced on gays is crude and ignorant. Gay people are not prevented from sitting at lunch counters. Gay people are not prevented from attending school. They are prevented from expressing their love of their life partner. Appropriately, the battle against discrimination is fought where the discrimination takes place. So, no, no firehosings. Just gay-bashings.
And don't pull some "multi-ethnic" bullshit. If you can cherry-pick some hispanic dude to say he likes marriage a lot, then gays can cherry-pick an old straight handicapped islander to support gay marriage. You claim support from an AD? that's pathetic. Arguments are not rendered null becuase you refute them. They're rendered null when they do not follow logic, like yours.
And don't pull some "multi-ethnic" bullshit. If you can cherry-pick some hispanic dude to say he likes marriage a lot, then gays can cherry-pick an old straight handicapped islander to support gay marriage. You claim support from an AD? that's pathetic. Arguments are not rendered null becuase you refute them. They're rendered null when they do not follow logic, like yours.
100
"Too many Christians are cafeteria Christians. They choose item A from the Bible, then go on to ignore items B through Z" Julian Bond, National NAACP Chairman on using the Bible to justify discrimination of gay folks.
102
The thing about your values, Loveschild, is that they suck. They aren't worth having. They are terrible values. I hate to sound pompous but mine are so very obviously superior.
103
You know, Loveschild, I missed this tidbid from your post @ 88 where you say this about sexual orientation not being "visible" unless:
"unless you decide to make public."
Have you ever heard of "passing for white?" That's what remaining in the closet is for gay folks. I guess you'd rather those light-skinned black folk had kept on passing, if I apply your line of thinking about gay rights to the civil rights movement.
You see, we don't need to make up false parallels. They're very real and they draw themselves. Just like in this instance.
"unless you decide to make public."
Have you ever heard of "passing for white?" That's what remaining in the closet is for gay folks. I guess you'd rather those light-skinned black folk had kept on passing, if I apply your line of thinking about gay rights to the civil rights movement.
You see, we don't need to make up false parallels. They're very real and they draw themselves. Just like in this instance.
104
I am guessing that Loveschild has never heard of the following people, but she feels free to speak for them:
Rev. Irene Monroe, Minister and Public theologian, Union Theological Seminary and Harvard Divinity School.
H. Alexander Robinson, Executive Director and CEO, National Black Justice Coalition
Rodney Powell, Civil Rights Leader and Medical Doctor
Reverend Carolyn Mobley, Christian educator
Martha Shelley, Founder of the Gay Liberation Front
Barbara Smith, Founder of Woman of Color and Kitchen Table Press.
Deborah Johnson, who successful brought a lawsuit against a discriminatroy restaurant in Los Angeles (1983) along with Dr. Zandra Rolon.
Rev. Irene Monroe, Minister and Public theologian, Union Theological Seminary and Harvard Divinity School.
H. Alexander Robinson, Executive Director and CEO, National Black Justice Coalition
Rodney Powell, Civil Rights Leader and Medical Doctor
Reverend Carolyn Mobley, Christian educator
Martha Shelley, Founder of the Gay Liberation Front
Barbara Smith, Founder of Woman of Color and Kitchen Table Press.
Deborah Johnson, who successful brought a lawsuit against a discriminatroy restaurant in Los Angeles (1983) along with Dr. Zandra Rolon.
105
@ 98, Loveschild makes a LOT of assumptions about us. Calling some of us cowards, as though she just knows we wouldn't say these things to her face (or, as she prefers to phrase it, "ON her face.")
106
Nothing pisses me off more than when people claim that "my side is the side of love for the family"… it implies that “my side” is against all of that. How arrogant, and typical…
The sun will shine through, all right… but not in the way that you’re hoping.
The sun will shine through, all right… but not in the way that you’re hoping.
107
He's going to take a lot of flack for this in Iowa. I've just sent him an email of support for his courageous stand. If you feel inclined to do so you can reach him at;
Mike.Gronstal@legis.state.ia.us
Mike.Gronstal@legis.state.ia.us
110
@88, Loveschild. I have and will continue to compare the gay rights movement to the civil rights movement in front of African Americans or anybody I choose to. I know gay and lesbian African Americans who say the same thing.
Julian Bond said it better a few posts above.
You must be aware that in California the NAACP has come out in favor of gay marriage and urged the supreme court to overturn Prop 8. I think the NAACP knows a civil rights issue when they see one.
As for your family there is a chance that you children could turn out to be gay or lesbian. Unless you change your attitude I would feel very sorry of them having you as a parent. I am however glad that their are resources out there who will affirm them and at the same time undermine your attempts to control who they are. The fact that they will grow up in a country that recognizes same sex marriage will undercut your attempts to impart your values of hate and intolerance weather they are gay or straight.
Julian Bond said it better a few posts above.
You must be aware that in California the NAACP has come out in favor of gay marriage and urged the supreme court to overturn Prop 8. I think the NAACP knows a civil rights issue when they see one.
As for your family there is a chance that you children could turn out to be gay or lesbian. Unless you change your attitude I would feel very sorry of them having you as a parent. I am however glad that their are resources out there who will affirm them and at the same time undermine your attempts to control who they are. The fact that they will grow up in a country that recognizes same sex marriage will undercut your attempts to impart your values of hate and intolerance weather they are gay or straight.
111
I don't think we should discount the blowback from conservative groups. While they are wrong and on the losing side of history, it's also true that Nixon and then Reagan took the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act and shoved them up our collective asses sideways by their so-called "Southern Strategy."
The sad fact remains that a minority of Americans support full marriage rights for LGBT. We should be prepared for our enemies to make use of that fact. But just as the Southern Strategy was eventually defeated (after 40 years), and we now have a Black President, so too will the tide of history low our way.
The sad fact remains that a minority of Americans support full marriage rights for LGBT. We should be prepared for our enemies to make use of that fact. But just as the Southern Strategy was eventually defeated (after 40 years), and we now have a Black President, so too will the tide of history low our way.
113
I'm looking forward to hearing Loveschild's pig-ignorant discriminatory bleating as she loses another hundred battles. Like the twat on the video who says "I'm a mother who has to watch helplessly as my son is taught in school that gay marriage is OK", she is too old and too afraid and too locked into her irrelevant value system to see basic human decency.
Loveschild, you are wrong. Gay marriage is not only OK, it's a beautiful and life-affirming and forward-looking event, just like straight marriage. As a straight man I CANNOT WAIT to see my gay brothers and sisters come out into the full light of human rights.
And all you've got to fall back on is sputtering "apostate!" It's pathetic, it really is. You know, Loveschild, no closeted or oppressed gay person lives in a condition of such darkness as you. You should know this from the black civil rights struggle you love yet know so little about: oppression harms the oppressor. Your soul is imprisoned by your own fear, but the doors aren't locked; you can walk out anytime you want.
But you never will.
Loveschild, you are wrong. Gay marriage is not only OK, it's a beautiful and life-affirming and forward-looking event, just like straight marriage. As a straight man I CANNOT WAIT to see my gay brothers and sisters come out into the full light of human rights.
And all you've got to fall back on is sputtering "apostate!" It's pathetic, it really is. You know, Loveschild, no closeted or oppressed gay person lives in a condition of such darkness as you. You should know this from the black civil rights struggle you love yet know so little about: oppression harms the oppressor. Your soul is imprisoned by your own fear, but the doors aren't locked; you can walk out anytime you want.
But you never will.
114
So many of you seem so surprised that it's Iowa, but not me. People in the midwest have a strong sense of fairness, and are not prone to being swayed by alarmist rhetoric. While it's probably true that there is a lower comfort level in talking about sexual matters than people in more politically liberal areas, when the IA SC justices and the IA legislators were forced to think about this, it's not a surprise to me that a majority of them came down on the side of fairness. Folks in the midwest are generally GOOD PEOPLE.
My bet for the next state to get SSM? My (and Dan's) home state of Illinois. And the S is silent, you boobs!! ;-)
My bet for the next state to get SSM? My (and Dan's) home state of Illinois. And the S is silent, you boobs!! ;-)
115
I'm an apostate and proud of it! What is wrong with abandoning a belief that is incorrect? How about all those people who are raised in other faiths and then find Jesus - do you call them Apostates to their faces, Loveschild?
I have long observed that people will accuse other folks of things that they themselves do or want to do. For example, a liar thinks that evryone lies. So I find it interesting that Loveshild is throwing around accusations of being a 'petuant coward'. As you judge, Loveschild, so are you judged.
I have long observed that people will accuse other folks of things that they themselves do or want to do. For example, a liar thinks that evryone lies. So I find it interesting that Loveshild is throwing around accusations of being a 'petuant coward'. As you judge, Loveschild, so are you judged.
116
I totally disagree with Loveschild about pretty much everything, but admire her commitment to continue posting under a consistent handle. That is brave.
Also, if she's hot, she should come to SLOG night. It would add an awesome dynamic to the SLOG- our own Anne Coulter.
Also, if she's hot, she should come to SLOG night. It would add an awesome dynamic to the SLOG- our own Anne Coulter.
119
I am genetically wired to prefer skinny blondes. But I managed to overcome it when the love of my life turned out to be a brunette Irish lass.
124
who knew that our genX apathy would result in more freedom. what else can not caring do?
reverend phil
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