Find Your Valentine
Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, April 7, 2009
Religion I Blame Iowa
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 11:43 AM
If those gay people in Iowa weren't getting married stuff like this wouldn't be happening.
A Focus on the Family employee was jailed in Jefferson County after being arrested in Lakewood on suspicion of arranging to have sex with an underage girl.Juan Alberto Ovalle, 42, started chatting online Thursday with someone he thought was a girl under the age of 15 but was actually an undercover police officer, according to the arrest affidavit filed with the Jefferson County District Attorney's Office... Ovalle works as a Spanish producer at Focus, translating radio broadcasts and other Focus content for Spanish-speaking audiences, said Focus spokesman Gary Schneeberger.... A brief biography of Ovalle on the Web site of Audio Bible, which sells the Reina Valera Bible, says he is a native of the Dominican Republic who was saved when he was 14 and has served as a pastor in the United States and Latin America since age 19.
Or maybe it was those gay people getting married in Spain that drove him to it.
4
Dan, is there ANY human atrocity you can't somehow attempt to exploit and tangentially relate to gay marriage?
5
@4 -- if it's committed by a member of an aggressively anti-gay-marriage organization that has a tendency to blame atrocities on gay marriage, any atrocity is fair game. He's only playing by the rules they set up.
6
Pfft, all this talk about how they can "cure" gay people, and they can't even cure their own pedophiles.
7
"He's only playing by the rules they set up."
Exactly. We expect no better from "aggressively anti-gay-marriage organizations."
But is it too much to ask Dan Savage to rise above such insultingly stupid tactics?
The pro-gay-marriage movement does not benefit from reducing itself to the same rhetorical nonsense as its detractors.
Exactly. We expect no better from "aggressively anti-gay-marriage organizations."
But is it too much to ask Dan Savage to rise above such insultingly stupid tactics?
The pro-gay-marriage movement does not benefit from reducing itself to the same rhetorical nonsense as its detractors.
8
Read the transcripts of what this guy was saying to who he believed to be a 15 year old girl.
http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-conten…
http://coloradoindependent.com/wp-conten…
9
7, I completely disagree. This exposes these right wing wacko for the hypocrites they are. Plus it's very satisfying to read about them getting caught.
10
Woah, what a find. That was fucked up. I don't talk that dirty to adults (at least adult strangers).
Lock this fucker up.
I can't believe these assholes haven't figured out that every 15 year old girl on the Internet is a cop. Good riddance.
Lock this fucker up.
I can't believe these assholes haven't figured out that every 15 year old girl on the Internet is a cop. Good riddance.
11
And to defend Dan (on this point), he's creating a narrative that shows religion as a pretty negative influence on society.
Sometimes I think he's right. Granted, he's a little bitter, but so are a lot of us.
Sometimes I think he's right. Granted, he's a little bitter, but so are a lot of us.
12
Oh come on, if you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY believe in the old testament, 15 is waaay past the age of consent.
13
@11, religion in and of itself ain't bad. When it provides a moral cover for the power-hungry, the bigoted, and the just plain creepy is when things get bad.
There are a number of religions that don't mean giving up your brain's sovereignty as a membership requirement. I'd stay away from the ones that maintain a rigid hierarchy though, unless you really, really, really believe...you know what? probably just best to stay away from those under all circumstances
There are a number of religions that don't mean giving up your brain's sovereignty as a membership requirement. I'd stay away from the ones that maintain a rigid hierarchy though, unless you really, really, really believe...you know what? probably just best to stay away from those under all circumstances
16
11
He is selectively presenting information to create a distorted picture of the influence of religion in American life. He selects all the bad and ignores the good, even though the good outweighs the bad 100-1. He deals in hate and misrepresentation and that never produces a positive outcome. Dan is part of the problem, not part of the solution. He would do the causes he claims to favor more good by using his position to highlight their positive aspects rather than tearing down anything and anyone who disagrees with him. He is all about destruction and does nothing constructive. Admittedly, the hate and venom and bile find a receptive audience among the credulous religion haters on slog and drive up hits on the blog but Savage could be so much more than the queer David Duke if he tried.
He is selectively presenting information to create a distorted picture of the influence of religion in American life. He selects all the bad and ignores the good, even though the good outweighs the bad 100-1. He deals in hate and misrepresentation and that never produces a positive outcome. Dan is part of the problem, not part of the solution. He would do the causes he claims to favor more good by using his position to highlight their positive aspects rather than tearing down anything and anyone who disagrees with him. He is all about destruction and does nothing constructive. Admittedly, the hate and venom and bile find a receptive audience among the credulous religion haters on slog and drive up hits on the blog but Savage could be so much more than the queer David Duke if he tried.
17
16:"He selects all the bad and ignores the good, even though the good outweighs the bad 100-1"
The mainstream media have given you that mistaken impression. The truth is closer to what Dan is saying.
The mainstream media have given you that mistaken impression. The truth is closer to what Dan is saying.
18
Guys, let's try to be fair. I think he was just trying to "save her". What they left out of the transcript was his repeated use of the word "Jesus" as in "do you suck d*ck...for Jesus" "I like to suck p@ssy...for Jesus".
You liberals are all such perverts!
You liberals are all such perverts!
19
16, Well thank Christ we have you to point it out. With your super-intelligence, you figured out the evil plan. Praise Jesus that you are here to protect us lesser beings, who from reading Dan Savage, thought that all religious people were child molesters.
20
17
Wow.
You are credulous.
Dan post a couple of perverts every few days and that gives you an accurate view of religion in America?
Whatever works for you.
Wow.
You are credulous.
Dan post a couple of perverts every few days and that gives you an accurate view of religion in America?
Whatever works for you.
22
16 & 20: So what, exactly, have any of these religious groups said that was 'nice' about gay people? When was the last time one of these orginazations spoke glowingly about all the 'good' gays out there? When have they talked about all the good things gay people have accomplished???
I hear crickets....
I hear crickets....
24
Or 20, he could be going by articles like this
Sex abuse spans spectrum of churches
...The surveys suggest that over the past decade, the pace of child-abuse allegations against American churches has averaged 70 a week...Dr. Shupe suggests the 70 allegations-per-week figure actually could be higher, because underreporting is common. He discovered this in 1998 while going door to door in Dallas-Ft. Worth communities where he asked 1,607 families if they'd experienced abuse from those within their church. Nearly 4 percent said they had been victims of sexual abuse by clergy. Child sexual abuse was part of that, but not broken out, he says...
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s0…
25
You're welcome for the Slog tip.
(Sent at 8:08am mountain. The internet is a race and I won, Rob.)
(Sent at 8:08am mountain. The internet is a race and I won, Rob.)
26
@24
Interesting article.
It says:
"Volunteers are more likely than clergy or paid staff to be abusers. Perhaps more startling, children at churches are accused of sexual abuse as often as are clergy and staff. In 1999, for example, 42 percent of alleged child abusers were volunteers – about 25 percent were paid staff members (including clergy) and 25 percent were other children."
So when will Dan start a "Child Watch"? They are guilty of as many abuses as clergy.
The article suggests things are getting better:
"Still, it is the reduction of reported allegations over nine years that seems to indicate that some churches are learning how to slow abuse allegations with tough new prevention measures, say insurance company officials and church officials themselves.
The peak year for allegations was 1994, with 3 percent of churches reporting an allegation of sexual misconduct compared with just 0.1 percent in 2000."
0.1% is one church out of a thousand.
That is hardly the picture Dan paints.
Interesting article.
It says:
"Volunteers are more likely than clergy or paid staff to be abusers. Perhaps more startling, children at churches are accused of sexual abuse as often as are clergy and staff. In 1999, for example, 42 percent of alleged child abusers were volunteers – about 25 percent were paid staff members (including clergy) and 25 percent were other children."
So when will Dan start a "Child Watch"? They are guilty of as many abuses as clergy.
The article suggests things are getting better:
"Still, it is the reduction of reported allegations over nine years that seems to indicate that some churches are learning how to slow abuse allegations with tough new prevention measures, say insurance company officials and church officials themselves.
The peak year for allegations was 1994, with 3 percent of churches reporting an allegation of sexual misconduct compared with just 0.1 percent in 2000."
0.1% is one church out of a thousand.
That is hardly the picture Dan paints.
27
Oh you can almost hear the joy in Savage's posting of this..
It's the ultimate goal for him, the destruction of people of faith. Yes Mr Savage the permissive attitudes you have championed do reach religious households that's why we're against the moral bankruptcy you promote.
It's the ultimate goal for him, the destruction of people of faith. Yes Mr Savage the permissive attitudes you have championed do reach religious households that's why we're against the moral bankruptcy you promote.
28
I hate to break it to those of you who think this kind of thing shouldn't be reported, because it's showing "hate" for religion, but this is a perfectly legitimate article. If he were inventing these stories, sure, it'd be hateful. He has every right to report on factual cases, WHICHEVER factual cases he chooses. If he wants to report on only poodle-bite stories, he can do that too. If you don't like these stories, then read a different blog. Start your own. What EVER.
32
@26,
I don't believe Dan's goal is the destruction of people of faith, I think the goal is to get people of faith to stop imposing their "morals" on everyone else. And I think Dan will continue to advance this goal for as long as people of faith continue to blame him and others of "moral bankruptcy."
I don't believe Dan's goal is the destruction of people of faith, I think the goal is to get people of faith to stop imposing their "morals" on everyone else. And I think Dan will continue to advance this goal for as long as people of faith continue to blame him and others of "moral bankruptcy."
33
@24
Everyone on SLOG, and especially Dan,should read the article Rob linked
If Dan reads the article maybe he will decide the 'Watch' is no longer needed:
"... his church has adopted a tougher sort of love since 2000. That's when criminal background checks, finger printing, detailed questionnaires, and careful policies – such as never having children and adults "one-on-one" – kicked into gear. It's a necessity with 700 to 800 children showing up for Sunday School and many more for other church activities during the week, he says.
"We have fingerprinting and a criminal background check for anyone over age 18 that works with children," says the Rev. Maitha. "If it comes back with a blemish, they're not working with kids. That's all there is to it."
Debby DeBernardi, director of Grace Community's children's ministry, says church policies require, for instance, that adults go in pairs when supervising bathroom breaks for children and that they check to ensure no adults are in the bathrooms, before children enter.
Men who've been screened and fingerprinted may work in the nursery. But only female staff members – not volunteers – may change diapers. Only adults wearing an identity badge that indicates they've been cleared may work with children – and photo IDs are coming soon.
The new procedures have already proven their worth, Ms. DeBernardi says. "We did have someone already apply who had a police file and had been accused of child molestation. Because of our new procedures, we caught it.... Sometimes you have to bring people in and say, 'Look, you're welcome to come to the church, we love you. But you may not minister in the children's area.' "
The measures Churches are taking to protect children are impressive.
More...
Everyone on SLOG, and especially Dan,should read the article Rob linked
If Dan reads the article maybe he will decide the 'Watch' is no longer needed:
"... his church has adopted a tougher sort of love since 2000. That's when criminal background checks, finger printing, detailed questionnaires, and careful policies – such as never having children and adults "one-on-one" – kicked into gear. It's a necessity with 700 to 800 children showing up for Sunday School and many more for other church activities during the week, he says.
"We have fingerprinting and a criminal background check for anyone over age 18 that works with children," says the Rev. Maitha. "If it comes back with a blemish, they're not working with kids. That's all there is to it."
Debby DeBernardi, director of Grace Community's children's ministry, says church policies require, for instance, that adults go in pairs when supervising bathroom breaks for children and that they check to ensure no adults are in the bathrooms, before children enter.
Men who've been screened and fingerprinted may work in the nursery. But only female staff members – not volunteers – may change diapers. Only adults wearing an identity badge that indicates they've been cleared may work with children – and photo IDs are coming soon.
The new procedures have already proven their worth, Ms. DeBernardi says. "We did have someone already apply who had a police file and had been accused of child molestation. Because of our new procedures, we caught it.... Sometimes you have to bring people in and say, 'Look, you're welcome to come to the church, we love you. But you may not minister in the children's area.' "
The measures Churches are taking to protect children are impressive.
34
27, if that's good news to you, I'd hate to see what you consider bad news.
30, Yes, Dan Savage is responsible for what everyone thinks.
30, Yes, Dan Savage is responsible for what everyone thinks.
35
@34
One out of a thousand is much less abuse that posters on slog have claimed. Less abuse of children is good news (to everyone but Dan)
Thank you for linking the article, Rob.
One out of a thousand is much less abuse that posters on slog have claimed. Less abuse of children is good news (to everyone but Dan)
Thank you for linking the article, Rob.
36
33, Yes, because at least 70 children per week are molested thanks to churches. Interesting that you find that to be good news worth crowing about. Shout it to the world.
37
35, your welcome. You're basically saying that although the child abuse is bad in the church, because it's less than what you thought, it's good news? Really? I feel bad for the children in your church.
38
@36
But what you and Dan ignore is that there are 50 or 60 million children a week of a multitude of Faiths receiving positive training and encouragement thru their religious activities.
But what you and Dan ignore is that there are 50 or 60 million children a week of a multitude of Faiths receiving positive training and encouragement thru their religious activities.
39
Bailo, go back to using your name, it adds spice. Loveschild, stop using aliases, your e-mail and IP are visible on the backend.
Anyhoots, @33 proves what sort of problem this is. Churches, the moral and upright root and foundation of society can't rely on their own teachings, they have to hire screening services and require ID.
Anyhoots, @33 proves what sort of problem this is. Churches, the moral and upright root and foundation of society can't rely on their own teachings, they have to hire screening services and require ID.
40
@37
The fact that there is much less abuse than Dan lead Slog readers to believe existed is encouraging news.
The fact that there is much less abuse than Dan lead Slog readers to believe existed is encouraging news.
44
I think the (obvious) point is that the church should clean up its own mess before it starts pointing fingers at other people and calling them immoral. In other words:
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?Matthew 7:2-4.
45
Welcome to the New, Improved, Better-Than-Before Church of Jeebuz!
Now, with 25% LESS Child Fucking!
Now, with 25% LESS Child Fucking!
46
You-all DO realize that Dan is just reposting what's out there in the MSM, right? He really doesn't have to lift a finger to "destroy people of faith", when it's pretty obvious they're already doing a heckuva job destroying themselves.
47
The excellent article Rob in Baltimore linked above @24 give the best information yet on Slog about the prevalence of clergy abuse of children.
It said that only 25% of those incidents in churches involve clergy or paid staff, the other three fourths involving other members.
It also said churches had taken extensive measures to reduce incidents and had reduced occurance to as low as one incident per 1000 churches, which would suggest that only one out of Four Thousand churches have an incident involving a clergy or paid staff member in a year.
Even one occurrence of child molestation or abuse occurring anywhere is unacceptable but this article places the scope of the problem in clear view.
Everyone who reads slog should check out the article.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s0…
It said that only 25% of those incidents in churches involve clergy or paid staff, the other three fourths involving other members.
It also said churches had taken extensive measures to reduce incidents and had reduced occurance to as low as one incident per 1000 churches, which would suggest that only one out of Four Thousand churches have an incident involving a clergy or paid staff member in a year.
Even one occurrence of child molestation or abuse occurring anywhere is unacceptable but this article places the scope of the problem in clear view.
Everyone who reads slog should check out the article.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s0…
48
This is entrapment. The pastor did not arrange to have sex with a teenager, he arranged to have sex with an undercover cop pretending to be a teenager.
49
16 is full of it. Dan doesn't criticize all religions or religious organizations. For example, I've never seen him commenting about negative stories connected to Unitarians and other liberal religions that are accepting of homosexuality. I've never seen him commenting about negative stories connected to purely charitable, non-political organizations connected to the Catholic Church and other conservative religions that are intolerant of homosexuality. He goes after his enemies, and his enemies are only those who have marked him out as wrong for his sexual orientation.
50
It's only entrapment if the officer offers the illegal product or service first, not if they're solicited for it. It's not entrapment for a cop to dress as a hooker and act like a hooker; it is illegal for a cop to go up to someone and offer sex and then arrest them. If the illegal act or purchase in question is first brought up by the suspect, it is not entrapment.
51
i think the entire point here is that the high and mighty christian right constantly labels gays as horrible, promiscious threats to our children while painting themselves as perfect and as some sort of standard of behaviour. All Dan does is use stories in the mainstream media to demonstrate the absolute hypocrasy of this position. If an above poster was correct and 70 children a week are being abused, that is the real epidemic not gays. Bible thumpers can't go around claiming they are the keepers of America's morality when there is a serious problem of abuse between clergy and young children. Sure its unfair for Dan to captialize on the explotation of kids at the hands of christian fundamentalist, but its also extremely unfair for them to have hypocritical standards and push their beliefs onto everyone else through scare tactics.
52
@49: Dan can go after whatever enemies he wants, it's his forum. Why, oh why do people expect a BLOG to be an unbiased news source? It's all opinions, people; and if you don't know the leaning of Dan's opinions by now you're tone-deaf. I'm sure there are some nifty pro-church blogs out there that are just as biased about gays. Don't be naive.
53
Soooo @47, you're arguing that the rampant child sexual abuse that goes on inside churches isn't as bad as it seems - because only SOME of it is being done by clergy & staff? Does that mean volunteers, who presumably are members of the congregation, get some sort of special dispensation to rape children inside churches because, well, they're JUST volunteers? And you consider THIS particular factoid as somehow relevant to your stance on denying Gay people the right to get married?
That is so fucked up.
Damn, why don't you just hang a big old sign on your front door that says, "Child Rapists, Inquire Within"?
That is so fucked up.
Damn, why don't you just hang a big old sign on your front door that says, "Child Rapists, Inquire Within"?
54
Normally I'm down with blaming Focus on the Family for any evil. They really and truly are evil. But this guy isn't clergy, he's a voice actor. He might be a practicing Zoroastrian for all we know.
55
52
Right-o!
When I am on slog I wear my 'Asshole Prevaricator Provocateur' hat and vomit up any crap, lies, hate and distortion I want. The gang laps it up! (credulous hacks...)
When I am at The Stranger I wear my 'Responsible Editor Journalist' hat and people will look to me for Truth, Justice and the American Way!
Who needs Daily Papers?
Right-o!
When I am on slog I wear my 'Asshole Prevaricator Provocateur' hat and vomit up any crap, lies, hate and distortion I want. The gang laps it up! (credulous hacks...)
When I am at The Stranger I wear my 'Responsible Editor Journalist' hat and people will look to me for Truth, Justice and the American Way!
Who needs Daily Papers?
56
Churches reflect the society they exist in. No one there is perfect, if they were they wouldn't need church.
Many of the people attending church struggle with issues and are trying to improve but sometimes fail. Some undoubtedly are cynical exploiters taking advantage of the atmosphere of trust that exists within a community of faith for their own evil purposes.
The same can be said of volunteers, staff and clergy; to one degree or another.
The same is also true of any organization staffed by humans.
The article Rob of Baltimore posted @24 shows that churches are working hard to root out those who pose a threat to others. The articles Dan posts show that they have more to do.
Churches try to help their members. sometimes they fail, sometimes they fail terribly. But more often they succeed.
Many of the people attending church struggle with issues and are trying to improve but sometimes fail. Some undoubtedly are cynical exploiters taking advantage of the atmosphere of trust that exists within a community of faith for their own evil purposes.
The same can be said of volunteers, staff and clergy; to one degree or another.
The same is also true of any organization staffed by humans.
The article Rob of Baltimore posted @24 shows that churches are working hard to root out those who pose a threat to others. The articles Dan posts show that they have more to do.
Churches try to help their members. sometimes they fail, sometimes they fail terribly. But more often they succeed.
57
26 - yes, because this guy's actions are Dan's fault. And when has Dan EVER "championed" sex with kids?
58
@ 56
but the very point is that churches hold themselves up as a standard of what people should do. if they can make judgements about anyone else, they must meet their own standards. having clergy or members exploiting children is hardly meeting the standards they shout about protecting children from the homos.
it was jesus that said he who is innocent can cast the first stone. and yet, churches have cast a whole lot of stones at gays and lesbians and what is worse, have claimed to be morally suprerior while doing so.
but the very point is that churches hold themselves up as a standard of what people should do. if they can make judgements about anyone else, they must meet their own standards. having clergy or members exploiting children is hardly meeting the standards they shout about protecting children from the homos.
it was jesus that said he who is innocent can cast the first stone. and yet, churches have cast a whole lot of stones at gays and lesbians and what is worse, have claimed to be morally suprerior while doing so.
59
@ 47
That one-in-a-thousand figure was for 2000 only; I thought you weren't supposed to bear false witness.
"Since 1993, on average about 1 percent of the surveyed churches reported abuse allegations annually. "
"The peak year for allegations was 1994, with 3 percent of churches reporting an allegation of sexual misconduct compared with just 0.1 percent in 2000. But 2001 data, indicates a swing back to the 1 percent level..."
That one-in-a-thousand figure was for 2000 only; I thought you weren't supposed to bear false witness.
"Since 1993, on average about 1 percent of the surveyed churches reported abuse allegations annually. "
"The peak year for allegations was 1994, with 3 percent of churches reporting an allegation of sexual misconduct compared with just 0.1 percent in 2000. But 2001 data, indicates a swing back to the 1 percent level..."
60
@50 entrapment rules are weird. the cop can actually offer first if they feel that's obviously why the person is communicating with them. cops just cannot persuade the person. those cases could be more difficult to prosecute. in this case, we don't see any of the kids dialog -- which could have been as crude as the adults -- so we don't know what sort of case for entrapment there might be.
61
@50: Even that's not correct - in general, cops can make the first move, provided that the nature of that move is such that it will only attract those who are disposed to act in that fashion given the opportunity. So a cop can approach a car and offer sex for money, since a normal hooker would do that, but a cop who posts an ad on craigslist talking about her secret fantasy of having a man pay her for sex and offers to return the money after the act would be in trouble, because that's not normal hooker behavior.
63
The excellent article Rob in Baltimore linked above @24 gives the best information yet on Slog about the prevalence of clergy abuse of children.
It said that only 25% of those incidents in churches involve clergy or paid staff, the other three fourths involving other members.
It also said churches had taken extensive measures to reduce incidents and had reduced occurance to as low as one incident per 1000 churches in 2000, which would mean that only one out of Four Thousand churches had an incident involving a clergy or paid staff member.
Even one occurrence of child molestation or abuse occurring anywhere is unacceptable but this article places the scope of the problem in clear view.
Everyone who reads slog should check out the article.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s0…
It said that only 25% of those incidents in churches involve clergy or paid staff, the other three fourths involving other members.
It also said churches had taken extensive measures to reduce incidents and had reduced occurance to as low as one incident per 1000 churches in 2000, which would mean that only one out of Four Thousand churches had an incident involving a clergy or paid staff member.
Even one occurrence of child molestation or abuse occurring anywhere is unacceptable but this article places the scope of the problem in clear view.
Everyone who reads slog should check out the article.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s0…
64
The trolls should rent the movie Elmer Gantry. It would explain so much to them about why religion is so unpopular with mainstream Americans nowadays.
67
Hello Everyone. I have a blog where I write about everything from gay rights to what I find hot. I hope you'll check it out:
http://thegayatheist.blogspot.com/
http://thegayatheist.blogspot.com/
Advertisement
Most Commented on Slog
-
SL Letter of the Day: Pill The Homos! by Dan Savage
-
Dear Huffington Post... by Dan Savage
-
Slog Bible Study: Deuteronomy 21:10-14 by Goldy
-
The AP Is Reporting That Whitney Houston Is Dead by Paul Constant
-
SL Letter of the Day: Daddy Loves Who? by Dan Savage
-
Because Guns Make Us Safer by Goldy
-
The Rick Santorum Rally in Tacoma Probably Could Have Gone Better by Paul Constant
-
Gay Kids Are Still Killing Themselves by Dan Savage
-
Because Guns Make Us More Safer by Goldy
-
Gregoire: "This is signed!" by Eli Sanders
RSS
Facebook
Twitter
Comments (67) RSS