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News & ArtsMonday, March 30, 2009
Savage Love Savage Love Letter of the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Mar 30, 2009 at 3:11 PM
I am sorry to report, anonymously of course, that United Nations' security has firewalled the LovecastI am very saddened as I enjoyed listening to your show every week especially during those work hours when I do the mundane administrative tasks. And I can tell you that, yes, it did improve my performance. This pains me considering that the mission of the UN is the protection of Human rights—including the protection of reproductive rights, sexual health and the right to live free of oppression. I believe that the security firewall does work on automation to some level, but I still intend on raising this issue to the staff union. For as we should be up-to-date on news around the world, we should also up-to-date the dialogue concerning sex and sexual health around the world. I've been following you since you were "Hey, Faggot" and I was a virgin way back when. And I don't intend to give you up now.S. At The United Nations
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Sometimes I'd listen at work too. I tried to avoid it though. Human Resources would have a cow if anyone overheard.
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Dan you should bring back "Hey Faggot!" for a special week or month or something. The world needs it now more than ever, what with the retards bitching at you for DARING to use "gay" and "retard" to mean "lame". OH NOES!!!!!
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Maybe someone should tell S. at the U.N. that it's a podcast, and he can download it at home and listen to it wherever he wants.
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@3 It's not all that appropriate to use "lame" to mean "bad" either -- with both "retard" and "lame," you marginalize people with inherent disabilities by equating their conditions with what it is to be bad.
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Marc @6:
Are you saying that is _isn't_ better to be smart rather than stupid, or fit instead of hobbled?
I'm sorry, but that's just bullshit. It is better to be smart -- otherwise, why bother to have school? And it is better to be fit -- otherwise, they would telecast the slowest in the marathon, since that's where the hardest workers are.
No matter how you slice it, to be a retard (or learning disabled, or whatever the heck you want to call it) is a bad thing, as one won't be able to contribute or gain as much from the world of ideas (blog comments excepted). The worst you can say about the epithet "retard" is that it brings out truth, and the truth is sometimes unpleasant.
"That's so gay," on the other hand, is just wrong, since I've never been able to see anything the matter with being gay (and that's spoken as a straight white boring guy).
Yes, the truth hurts. Should we be banned from speaking it then?
Are you saying that is _isn't_ better to be smart rather than stupid, or fit instead of hobbled?
I'm sorry, but that's just bullshit. It is better to be smart -- otherwise, why bother to have school? And it is better to be fit -- otherwise, they would telecast the slowest in the marathon, since that's where the hardest workers are.
No matter how you slice it, to be a retard (or learning disabled, or whatever the heck you want to call it) is a bad thing, as one won't be able to contribute or gain as much from the world of ideas (blog comments excepted). The worst you can say about the epithet "retard" is that it brings out truth, and the truth is sometimes unpleasant.
"That's so gay," on the other hand, is just wrong, since I've never been able to see anything the matter with being gay (and that's spoken as a straight white boring guy).
Yes, the truth hurts. Should we be banned from speaking it then?
11
@9: Right, right, and "stereotypes are always based on a grain of truth" etc.
Look, the problem with calling someone a "retard" isn't that it acknowledges that learning disabilities are unpleasant and undesirable, but that it expresses a contempt that basically disavows any shared humanity between you and the allegedly retarded person. As generalized insults, "retard" and "faggot" are the same: the point isn't that either one is simply an undesired condition, but that these words (when used as generalized insults) imply that these conditions disqualify one from being a full human being.
So far, the responses to these points never manage to be any more deep than "lighten up," or "stop being politically correct," or "well, being retarded is bad, so why shouldn't it be an insult." Seriously: these are the shallow rejoinders of those who resent thoughtfulness.
You know who you are.
Look, the problem with calling someone a "retard" isn't that it acknowledges that learning disabilities are unpleasant and undesirable, but that it expresses a contempt that basically disavows any shared humanity between you and the allegedly retarded person. As generalized insults, "retard" and "faggot" are the same: the point isn't that either one is simply an undesired condition, but that these words (when used as generalized insults) imply that these conditions disqualify one from being a full human being.
So far, the responses to these points never manage to be any more deep than "lighten up," or "stop being politically correct," or "well, being retarded is bad, so why shouldn't it be an insult." Seriously: these are the shallow rejoinders of those who resent thoughtfulness.
You know who you are.
12
@9
The truth is that having a disability makes you a worse person?
Obviously having a physical disability means you aren't as good at certain physical tasks; having an intellectual disability means you aren't as good at others with abstract reasoning.
Using terms like "retard" (which is already a perjorative even directed at people with intellectual disabilities) as general insults suggests that their overall worth as people is less because of their disability (for why else would it be an effective insult? It would just be an uninsulting incorrect statement)
The truth is that having a disability makes you a worse person?
Obviously having a physical disability means you aren't as good at certain physical tasks; having an intellectual disability means you aren't as good at others with abstract reasoning.
Using terms like "retard" (which is already a perjorative even directed at people with intellectual disabilities) as general insults suggests that their overall worth as people is less because of their disability (for why else would it be an effective insult? It would just be an uninsulting incorrect statement)
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Actually, I didn't really add anything from what @11 said more effectively before me. Sorry about that.
14
@11,12,other etc. I don't want to jump on an unpopular bandwagon but...there's a difference between saying something's "retarded" and actively expressing contempt for people with actual mental handicaps. and i'm sorry, if "retarded" is so negative that it's considered politically incorrect to use to refer to people, what can we use it for? because lame used to mean the same (or a similar thing), and now it's commonly accepted as a term for an uncool or unpopular thing, after it's use referring to the disabled fell into disuse. isn't that all that's happening to the word "retarded"? and as for things being "gay" i'm calling bullshit on that whole thing right now. as a gay white male, i call things gay all the time. and they are usually, in point of fact, pretty gay. guy downloading michael bolton album: that's gay. a teacher at my school running our gay straight alliance has this old campaign against it's use, saying it was akin to calling a black person a "nigger" and that's taking it too far. it's more similar to saying something is "black", which, again, i've seen many times. maybe it's mild racism, but i guess that makes me and my black friends racist because if someone says something like "i'm gonna go have watermelon and fried chicken" we say "that's really black", and it's not about putting down people of that minority, it's about that person feeding into a stereotype of that race. political correctness is one thing, but there's a point at which people finding faults with everything other people say is just used as an excuse to prohibit their speech, and it's unfair.
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@14: I'm actually mostly with you on this. When it comes down to it, almost any insult will have a trouble history. "Idiot" originally referred to a medical condition (i.e., mental retardation), and "bugger" (which now might be a homophobic slur) is reputed to have originated as a hypothesis about the sexual practices of the invading Bulgars. And like you said, "lame" sounds relatively innocent to our ears now, but it does refer to someone who's physically disabled.
Look, I'm not for hard and fast rules about what people can and can't say, because I think that's counterproductive. At the same time, I do think sensitivity to context and the potential for dehumanizing those around us is important.
You know, to take an immediate example: When Dan writes a column called "Hey, Faggot," most of us will find it mildly funny. But it's obviously a different story if a UW football player yells it at someone on the Ave.
All I really object to is people crying "lighten up" or "PC police!" whenever someone points out that what was said may be inappropriate.
Look, I'm not for hard and fast rules about what people can and can't say, because I think that's counterproductive. At the same time, I do think sensitivity to context and the potential for dehumanizing those around us is important.
You know, to take an immediate example: When Dan writes a column called "Hey, Faggot," most of us will find it mildly funny. But it's obviously a different story if a UW football player yells it at someone on the Ave.
All I really object to is people crying "lighten up" or "PC police!" whenever someone points out that what was said may be inappropriate.
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@14 -- While I'm mostly with you as well, what you describe is how you act among your friends. If you believe that this forum is public, then one would generally want to be on better behavior.
I can tell some pretty deviant jokes, but not to someone I just met, and I don't yell them out loud in a theater, since in my opinion that requires a wee bit more formality.
I can tell some pretty deviant jokes, but not to someone I just met, and I don't yell them out loud in a theater, since in my opinion that requires a wee bit more formality.
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21
as far as refering to things as being "retarded", I don't exactly think there is anything offensive. retarded simply means something is prevented, inhibited, hobbled. like "flame retardant". however, calling a person a retard, I can understand the sensitivity, even though I'm sure I've done it myself plenty of times.
but people taking issue with someone saying "lame"? I'm sorry, but pick your fucking battles. I get that it's rooted in something historically negative, but that word is so far from insulting to anyone besides a person it's being used to insult. do you also get offended when people say "hysterical", call "shotgun", or suggest we go on a "picnic"? "lunacy" is another good one.
finally to throw in my straight white male opinion on the use of "gay" as a pejorative: when I do it, it's not because I am necessarily insulting or denigrating something, it is because it is something I am not excited about. as a straight man, I am not stoked on the idea of having relations with another man. it's cool if you are, but I am not. a man having sex with me would be totally "gay", and that's my opinion. so when I say "Bizarre Foods with Andrew Zimmern is hella gay", you know I just don't care for it.
but people taking issue with someone saying "lame"? I'm sorry, but pick your fucking battles. I get that it's rooted in something historically negative, but that word is so far from insulting to anyone besides a person it's being used to insult. do you also get offended when people say "hysterical", call "shotgun", or suggest we go on a "picnic"? "lunacy" is another good one.
finally to throw in my straight white male opinion on the use of "gay" as a pejorative: when I do it, it's not because I am necessarily insulting or denigrating something, it is because it is something I am not excited about. as a straight man, I am not stoked on the idea of having relations with another man. it's cool if you are, but I am not. a man having sex with me would be totally "gay", and that's my opinion. so when I say "Bizarre Foods with Andrew Zimmern is hella gay", you know I just don't care for it.
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I never use "gay" as a pejorative because I never heard it used that way before six or seven years ago, and to me it still just sounds stupid and trendy and "high-schooly". (Does this make sense? I'm just short of sixty). When I was a kid, we all used "queer" in exactly the same way as "gay" is now.
24
@ 14 - I used to know a group of guys who, whenever something was broken or didn't work like they wanted, would say, "That's so Jewish." Someone choosing a less expensive option? "Stop Jewing it up." Someone disagreeing with them or saying something they thought was uncool? "What a Jew."
Obviously they thought it was a lighthearted, friendly way of joking around that didn't actually express animosity toward any particular group. Myself, as a Jew... felt differently.
I suppose I would agree that there is a difference between using "gay" or "black" as a generic derogatory descriptor, and using it to describe a stereotypical "gay" or "black" action. But considering how easy it is to cross the line from using such words in a joking manner, to using them a hateful manner - well, I'd rather just avoid them altogether, and not have to worry that an acquaintance or a passer-by will consider me racist or bigoted.
Obviously they thought it was a lighthearted, friendly way of joking around that didn't actually express animosity toward any particular group. Myself, as a Jew... felt differently.
I suppose I would agree that there is a difference between using "gay" or "black" as a generic derogatory descriptor, and using it to describe a stereotypical "gay" or "black" action. But considering how easy it is to cross the line from using such words in a joking manner, to using them a hateful manner - well, I'd rather just avoid them altogether, and not have to worry that an acquaintance or a passer-by will consider me racist or bigoted.
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I haven't called anyone a retard since I was maybe 8 years old, but I still freely use the terms "retarded" and "lame". The distinction I make is that I direct them at ideas, not at people.
e.g.: Maggie Gallagher is one of the smartest and most politically astute people of my acquaintance. However, her arguments against marriage equality are all lame, and some of them are downright retarded.
I don't really know what it would mean for an idea or situation to be "gay" or "black", so yeah, usages like @14 describes strike me as pretty lame.
e.g.: Maggie Gallagher is one of the smartest and most politically astute people of my acquaintance. However, her arguments against marriage equality are all lame, and some of them are downright retarded.
I don't really know what it would mean for an idea or situation to be "gay" or "black", so yeah, usages like @14 describes strike me as pretty lame.
26
replace "lame" with "conservative" and replace "retard" with "republican" and I can get behind some of this political incorrectness
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@24, that's the thing though. it's also a matter of to who you're speaking. i AM gay, and most of my friends who say "that's black" ARE black, so there's that difference as well. if someone were to say they had a problem with that, we'd think "okay, we'll tone it down around that individual" but people saying we can't say them at all are the problem.
and @25, i can think of "gay" scenarios or "black" scenarios off the top of my head. i made that point as well, we're usually talking about people/situations feeding into stereotypes of those groups. a guy saying "omg i love tori amos!" is being kind of gay, from our point of view. a guy eating chicken and waffles is being pretty black. we acknowledge that not all people of these minorities are/like these things, but the stereotype is common enough for someone feeding into them (be they part of that minority or otherwise) to be mentionable.
and @25, i can think of "gay" scenarios or "black" scenarios off the top of my head. i made that point as well, we're usually talking about people/situations feeding into stereotypes of those groups. a guy saying "omg i love tori amos!" is being kind of gay, from our point of view. a guy eating chicken and waffles is being pretty black. we acknowledge that not all people of these minorities are/like these things, but the stereotype is common enough for someone feeding into them (be they part of that minority or otherwise) to be mentionable.
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@23:
that's interesting since "queer" is just supposed to mean strange or weird, and yet people used it as an insult to imply homosexuality, only to have homos co-opt it. then again, "gay" was used in a sense of "we'll have a gay ole tiiiimmmmeee" and then got used to describe homosexuality as well. I dunno, it's weird to think that a word that means happy and jovial, then homosexual, gets used as a pejorative. someone should have called bullshit on whatever 10 year old originally "my homework assignment is so gay!", so as to nip the whole scenario in the bud. but then South Park does it and everyone including myself is suddenly guilty of this syntaxical atrocity maquerading as hate speech.
that's interesting since "queer" is just supposed to mean strange or weird, and yet people used it as an insult to imply homosexuality, only to have homos co-opt it. then again, "gay" was used in a sense of "we'll have a gay ole tiiiimmmmeee" and then got used to describe homosexuality as well. I dunno, it's weird to think that a word that means happy and jovial, then homosexual, gets used as a pejorative. someone should have called bullshit on whatever 10 year old originally "my homework assignment is so gay!", so as to nip the whole scenario in the bud. but then South Park does it and everyone including myself is suddenly guilty of this syntaxical atrocity maquerading as hate speech.
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@ 25. The word retarded was originally based on a meaning of 'lateness' or 'prevention', the equivalent medical term now is 'developmentally delayed'.
But the word has now become a euphemism for something stupid or worthless, and that's what makes it so offensive to people with intellectual disabilities - regardless of whether it's directed at a person or a situation.
But the word has now become a euphemism for something stupid or worthless, and that's what makes it so offensive to people with intellectual disabilities - regardless of whether it's directed at a person or a situation.
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To the original letter writer:
Download the damn thing at home. You are paid well enough (and tax free to boot) to get a residential internet connection. Do some serious work at the UN for once and justify the insane use of taxpayer money (of most nations) which allows you to live comfortable.
Download the damn thing at home. You are paid well enough (and tax free to boot) to get a residential internet connection. Do some serious work at the UN for once and justify the insane use of taxpayer money (of most nations) which allows you to live comfortable.
33
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