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News & ArtsSaturday, March 28, 2009
Savage Love Savage Love Letter of the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 2:35 PM
I was wondering if you heard about WABC radio newsman George Weber getting murdered by a responder to one of his solicitations for rough sex on Craigslist. Even though I'm not into BDSM, I totally respect people who are into it and really appreciate all the advice you give people about practicing it. So it was really shocking to read how this person got murdered after basically breaking every-single-one of your rules on the subject:1. He sought a non-professional to get his BDSM on.
2. He pumped this non-professional full of coke and vodka.
3. This non-professional was a friggin' minor!And before people say "Oh but sometimes you can't tell their age." I have to tell you that me and a friend saw that kid, that same night, at the E-G-7 subway station and he did not look 18. When we saw the blood and his hand, our first thought was "high school fight gone wrong." We asked him if he was OK. The MTA person at the booth seemed to be taking care of him and we left. Only to read about this horrible incident later.
Could you please tell people out there one-more-time to be little more careful with their lives? Nobody deserves such a horrible attack, but it seems like this Weber person was really putting himself in a ridiculously dangerous situation.
Shocked and Awed
I had heard about the murder, of course, and it's heartbreaking and sickening and maddening all at once. My column next week is about the murder. Just fucking tragic.
2
Well - very bad news, stupid and should not have happened
Heartbreaking, no, maybe to his mother and boyfriends.
Tragic, no.
Slog queens deal in a lot of excessive drama - any time, any time, you are having sex with a stranger, you better take some care.
Who is in your bed is an important question as well as what the sex is about.
Older gay men can ALL tell stories, and offer a lot of suggestions about dragging them home, do this and DON'T do that.
Maybe Dan can build on some of those on the ground realities from experienced cruisers of yore and now.
Heartbreaking, no, maybe to his mother and boyfriends.
Tragic, no.
Slog queens deal in a lot of excessive drama - any time, any time, you are having sex with a stranger, you better take some care.
Who is in your bed is an important question as well as what the sex is about.
Older gay men can ALL tell stories, and offer a lot of suggestions about dragging them home, do this and DON'T do that.
Maybe Dan can build on some of those on the ground realities from experienced cruisers of yore and now.
3
It's certainly heartbreaking to think that any 16 year old in America is so wayward (for whatever reason) that he stabbed a man multiple times and lost any chance at a normal life. You're so busy vilifying a dead man, and Dan, that you have lost any sense of perspective about the bigger picture.
This story involves two criminals and two victims.
This story involves two criminals and two victims.
4
Joe @5 ** This story involves two criminals and two victims. **
So it appears - from what little I could find.
I think Dan's comment that the incident was ** heartbreaking and sickening and maddening all at once. ** sums it up.
So it appears - from what little I could find.
I think Dan's comment that the incident was ** heartbreaking and sickening and maddening all at once. ** sums it up.
5
Sorry, I feel no empathy for a 47 year old queen trolling for sex, giving coke to a minor makes him a creep. Having sex with a teen makes him a perv.
If he was still alive he should be in jail.
If he was still alive he should be in jail.
6
If the 47 year old guy really did coke up a minor to have sex then he is a creep. That particular picture of the younger man soes mae him look like he coulf pass for 18, but the who situation is tragic. That said it brings up issues I have around "rough sex" and BDSM stuff in general.
Consenting adults of course are free to have rough and BDSM sex, but more than it not being my cup of tea I do judge it. I judge it pretty harshly. I just do not relate to even playng the role of abusing or being abused and I don't understand how it could turn people on. Secondly the few people I have spoken with who are into it seem to view it as something almost sacred. They got on my case for not being into it. As if I was the one who was "abnorming." I told one person about my own expierence having been the victim of violence as a child and that that was part of the reason I could not relate. This person had the gall to mock me!
Okay, I know people will say they only represented themselves and not other BDSMers, but that was my experience.
Consenting adults of course are free to have rough and BDSM sex, but more than it not being my cup of tea I do judge it. I judge it pretty harshly. I just do not relate to even playng the role of abusing or being abused and I don't understand how it could turn people on. Secondly the few people I have spoken with who are into it seem to view it as something almost sacred. They got on my case for not being into it. As if I was the one who was "abnorming." I told one person about my own expierence having been the victim of violence as a child and that that was part of the reason I could not relate. This person had the gall to mock me!
Okay, I know people will say they only represented themselves and not other BDSMers, but that was my experience.
7
#5 Wow you say it's okay that a 47 year old gets murdered in Cold blood! Amazing. You're a monster on a level with Hitler if you think he deserved what he got. I bet you also think women who get raped are creeps too and deserve that. SICK Fuck.
9
Hit me with your rhythm stick.
Hit me! Hit me!
Je t'adore, ich liebe dich,
Hit me! hit me! hit me!
Hit me with your rhythm stick.
Hit me slowly, hit me quick.
Hit me! Hit me! Hit me!
Hit me! Hit me!
Je t'adore, ich liebe dich,
Hit me! hit me! hit me!
Hit me with your rhythm stick.
Hit me slowly, hit me quick.
Hit me! Hit me! Hit me!
11
@ #8 LOL at you for calling me a prude. I suppose I am a goody two shoes because I won't try smoking crack. I'll bet somewhere someone would call you a prude for not being into what they do. It is totally a legitimate position to not like something, not realte to it or even disaprove of it yet still support the right of consenting adults to do it. If that be prudish then make the most of it.
13
Useful idea: Hook up at Sounders FC games instead, even if those nasty Salt Lake City guys keep trying to kick our guys in their privates ....
1-0 right now but they keep fouling our guys.
1-0 right now but they keep fouling our guys.
15
This is the true face of the gay lifestyle. His story is too common amongst them. A sad desperate man in his forties seeking sex with a kid. Here you have a fine example of the true life gay men live (if you can call this living) and not the clownish parades that only mask temporarily the pain that goes with the path they have chosen. Mr Webber was employed by one of NYC most conservative radio stations, he had a dignified job and a good salary. A man of his age with such a nice job should've had a wife, kids and lead a normal life yet the gay 'lifestyle' was more enticing for him and he gave into his twisted sexual pursuits. It's a miracle he got to live to the age he did, living the life he did since people who adopt the gay mindset shorten drastically their lives.
The other victim here of course was the 16 year old. He was lured by Mr Webber and then drugged to such a high extent by him that he clouded even more an already fragile undeveloped mind that it drove him insane and violent. He drugged this minor probably so that he would be more relaxed with the types of twisted sexual acts he wanted him to perform but it backfired on him. There's a real lesson to be learned here by all who identify as or seek gay sex. They need to reflect on this and take notice on the end Mr Webber had, he could've easily been any of them. How many young Katehis have been lured and their lives forever ruined in the prime of their lives. How many Webbers are out there seeking for this sort of thing only to meet this end.
The other victim here of course was the 16 year old. He was lured by Mr Webber and then drugged to such a high extent by him that he clouded even more an already fragile undeveloped mind that it drove him insane and violent. He drugged this minor probably so that he would be more relaxed with the types of twisted sexual acts he wanted him to perform but it backfired on him. There's a real lesson to be learned here by all who identify as or seek gay sex. They need to reflect on this and take notice on the end Mr Webber had, he could've easily been any of them. How many young Katehis have been lured and their lives forever ruined in the prime of their lives. How many Webbers are out there seeking for this sort of thing only to meet this end.
16
There are people who were solicited on Craigslist to come over and buy furniture who then got knocked out and robbed when they arrived at the phoney sellers place.
Are you going to outlaw antique shopping?
Are you going to outlaw antique shopping?
17
@ 15: Wow, no. Gay DNE chickenhawk, pedophile or any other disgusting label you can come up with, & the above is not some classic example of gay lifestyle. I know lots..LOTS..of gay guys, & the majority of them are in relationships. With other guys roughly their age. Fairly long relationships. If most of 'em wanna get their kinky freak on, they've got a partner or whoever else is allowed to, to help them out with that. Even the formerly outrageous circuit queens have more or less settled down & set up house.
Saying THAT above is gay life is like saying any one of the few high-profile husabnds-murdering-wives cases headlining the news this past week is a classic example of hetero marriage/hetero life.
What this horrible murder is, is a fine example of why you DON'T hook up via craigslist, AOL, etc or if you do, why you should be insanely careful; why you shouldn't use drugs with strangers (ESPECIALLY if there's any questions of their age, although being unknown to you should be enough of a reason) & why rough/kinky fooling around should be between you & someone you know AND trust, or someone you pay for it, who you ideally also trust.
I'm counting on you, Dan, to use this modern tale to drum some serious sense into folks who hook up via online. I wouldn't do that, but people are, & clearly they aren't taking necessary precautions. Scary, sad, world.
Saying THAT above is gay life is like saying any one of the few high-profile husabnds-murdering-wives cases headlining the news this past week is a classic example of hetero marriage/hetero life.
What this horrible murder is, is a fine example of why you DON'T hook up via craigslist, AOL, etc or if you do, why you should be insanely careful; why you shouldn't use drugs with strangers (ESPECIALLY if there's any questions of their age, although being unknown to you should be enough of a reason) & why rough/kinky fooling around should be between you & someone you know AND trust, or someone you pay for it, who you ideally also trust.
I'm counting on you, Dan, to use this modern tale to drum some serious sense into folks who hook up via online. I wouldn't do that, but people are, & clearly they aren't taking necessary precautions. Scary, sad, world.
18
@15
You would think that someone who uses the name "Loveschild" would look at the world with greater compassion than that displayed here.
I'm curious though, do you call the dozens of cases that are reported in the national media each year where a man kills his wife and a couple of other relatives before taking his own life the true face of the straight lifestyle? Probably not. Why not?
Truth is there is plenty of pain in this world and it does not limit itself to a particular sexual orientation. As fully feeling human beings, it is our job to reduce and alleviate that wherever and in whomever we find it. Part of the tragedy in all of these cases is the inability of the people to recognize the help that is right there beside them for the asking.
You would think that someone who uses the name "Loveschild" would look at the world with greater compassion than that displayed here.
I'm curious though, do you call the dozens of cases that are reported in the national media each year where a man kills his wife and a couple of other relatives before taking his own life the true face of the straight lifestyle? Probably not. Why not?
Truth is there is plenty of pain in this world and it does not limit itself to a particular sexual orientation. As fully feeling human beings, it is our job to reduce and alleviate that wherever and in whomever we find it. Part of the tragedy in all of these cases is the inability of the people to recognize the help that is right there beside them for the asking.
19
Um the "victim" 16 year old was an admitted satanist, lover of violence and lover of knives? And what, the older guy forced him to take the coke? (if so, please post link with proof)
Something tells me that kid was already on a bad track, all on his own.
Something tells me that kid was already on a bad track, all on his own.
20
@ 19
I think you're right, but that's the problem. Unless you're willing to state some people are destined to become murderers, you have to acknowledge that we (family, schools, society, whatever) failed this kid at some point along the way.
He made his own choices that night, but the real tragedy was that he was in the situation in the first place.
I think you're right, but that's the problem. Unless you're willing to state some people are destined to become murderers, you have to acknowledge that we (family, schools, society, whatever) failed this kid at some point along the way.
He made his own choices that night, but the real tragedy was that he was in the situation in the first place.
21
FYI, the 'age of consent' in New York is 17. On the surface, it appears that two troubled individuals met with tragic consequences.
22
@14 - no, I said hook up at the game.
Because if they turn out to be a psycho, you've got lots of people to help you.
Because if they turn out to be a psycho, you've got lots of people to help you.
23
sad, tragic and pointless for all involved. @ 15 Of course I guess we should ask where is that 16 year olds mother and father? I guess this is what happens (sometimes) when heterosexuals are allowed to have children.
24
!.) The young man represented himself as an adult. Weber thought he was having sex with an adult, not a child...or even a teenager. The label of "pedophile" doesn't really fit, if he was looking for an adult to have sex with.
2.) For those who think his death had something to do with the "gay lifestyle" and he'd still be alive if he were married (to a woman) and had kids, I'd like to point out that George Weber was a conservative closest case. He was the type of gay man your kind like! He wasn't living as an openly gay man with another long-term male partner, he was on the "down low". He was the typical Republican closet case who rants about "Out" gay men and trolls for sex from prostitutes. He is the Larry Craig of radio. If Georgie-Porgie had been an out gay man (the ones you accuse of flaunting their lifestyle), instead of a closet case, he might actually still be alive. If George had been an out gay man, instead of trolling for gay sex with strangers and prostitutes, he could date other men openly. Instead of trolling for BDSM kink on Craigslist with strangers and unskilled amateurs, he could go to any number of "key clubs" or legel BDSM clubs for "safe, sane, and sensual" play with a pro or at least a "safe, sane, and sensual" skilled amateur.
2.) For those who think his death had something to do with the "gay lifestyle" and he'd still be alive if he were married (to a woman) and had kids, I'd like to point out that George Weber was a conservative closest case. He was the type of gay man your kind like! He wasn't living as an openly gay man with another long-term male partner, he was on the "down low". He was the typical Republican closet case who rants about "Out" gay men and trolls for sex from prostitutes. He is the Larry Craig of radio. If Georgie-Porgie had been an out gay man (the ones you accuse of flaunting their lifestyle), instead of a closet case, he might actually still be alive. If George had been an out gay man, instead of trolling for gay sex with strangers and prostitutes, he could date other men openly. Instead of trolling for BDSM kink on Craigslist with strangers and unskilled amateurs, he could go to any number of "key clubs" or legel BDSM clubs for "safe, sane, and sensual" play with a pro or at least a "safe, sane, and sensual" skilled amateur.
25
@22: That doesn't really prevent the fact that some people don't turn out to be psychos until they're in your bedroom.
I mean, I'm with you in principle: if you're dating anyone blind, do it in a public place. At the same time, I think that those who don't see this as common sense are likely to have trouble noticing other signs of predatory behavior.
I mean, I'm with you in principle: if you're dating anyone blind, do it in a public place. At the same time, I think that those who don't see this as common sense are likely to have trouble noticing other signs of predatory behavior.
26
I love SLOG.
You always get such a wide variety of opinions.
Must admit I'm always confused about WHY the homo-phobes come here.
You always get such a wide variety of opinions.
Must admit I'm always confused about WHY the homo-phobes come here.
27
It seems like I've seen a lot of people hyphenating "homophobes" lately. Did I miss a memo about this?
29
A 16 year old is not a child. They are legally off-limits and if you are 47 you are a poor excuse of a person for pursuing them. But I would judge you the same if they were 18.
In the past Pi has been legislated to be exactly 3.0 but that didn't make it so. You can legislate that 17 years and 364 days of age makes you a child but that doesn't make it so.
You as the would-be judge and punisher of this man need to deal with the fact that no one deserves to be butchered. It's appalling that so many of you are hung up with the age of the murderer here. Where is your humanity? In this country 14 year olds have been tried as adults for murder. Reconcile that with your views on this case.
In the past Pi has been legislated to be exactly 3.0 but that didn't make it so. You can legislate that 17 years and 364 days of age makes you a child but that doesn't make it so.
You as the would-be judge and punisher of this man need to deal with the fact that no one deserves to be butchered. It's appalling that so many of you are hung up with the age of the murderer here. Where is your humanity? In this country 14 year olds have been tried as adults for murder. Reconcile that with your views on this case.
30
I hope the online PI is successful so that all these dickish commenters have somewhere else to fuck off to.
31
#6 - I find it interesting that all the anti-BDSM folks (as in, people who really think it's wrong, not just people who don't get into it themselves) have some story about some supposed BDSM afficianado who not only told them they were wrong and closed-minded for not liking it themselves, but shamed them over their victim status, blah blah blah.
I cry bullshit. I have never met a single person in this community who doesn't respect the rights of vanilla folks (or people with non-BDSM kinks) to like what they like and not like what they don't like. I'm sure those idiots exist, but they're clearly rare, and I find it much more likely, in most cases, that someone disgusted by the kink is going to make up these stories to justify their discomfort. (While all the while talking out of both sides of their mouth, saying, "I totally respect the rights of consenting adults, but they're all sick and wrong and stuff!")
I cry bullshit. I have never met a single person in this community who doesn't respect the rights of vanilla folks (or people with non-BDSM kinks) to like what they like and not like what they don't like. I'm sure those idiots exist, but they're clearly rare, and I find it much more likely, in most cases, that someone disgusted by the kink is going to make up these stories to justify their discomfort. (While all the while talking out of both sides of their mouth, saying, "I totally respect the rights of consenting adults, but they're all sick and wrong and stuff!")
32
Loveschild - I agree with what others have said. If this story is the "true face" of homosexuality, then Ted Bundee is the "true face" of heterosexuality. Only fair.
33
@31 - "(While all the while talking out of both sides of their mouth, saying, "I totally respect the rights of consenting adults, but they're all sick and wrong and stuff!")"
Agreed. I once argued with my mom over BDSM, taking the position that it was possible to have safe, sane play between consenting adults. She took the position that there was no such thing as safe BDSM play - ever - and that any preference for sadomasochism was necessarily evidence of psychological trauma. Nothing about BDSM could ever be sane or healthy, and anyone who took part in it was lying to themselves about their own disturbed desires. Safewords were illusions that could always be broken as soon as the top wanted to get more violent.
She then tried to lecture me about how unsafe it was for a woman to put herself in a submissive position, and at risk for violence. I responded, "WHY are you assuming that I'm the submissive one?" And that put an effective end to the conversation.
In any case, in my mind, BDSM play should never be a first-date activity. It is risky, and the best way to minimize that risk is to limit partners to those you know and trust - not strangers. Which is a good rule of thumb for most risky sexual activity.
Agreed. I once argued with my mom over BDSM, taking the position that it was possible to have safe, sane play between consenting adults. She took the position that there was no such thing as safe BDSM play - ever - and that any preference for sadomasochism was necessarily evidence of psychological trauma. Nothing about BDSM could ever be sane or healthy, and anyone who took part in it was lying to themselves about their own disturbed desires. Safewords were illusions that could always be broken as soon as the top wanted to get more violent.
She then tried to lecture me about how unsafe it was for a woman to put herself in a submissive position, and at risk for violence. I responded, "WHY are you assuming that I'm the submissive one?" And that put an effective end to the conversation.
In any case, in my mind, BDSM play should never be a first-date activity. It is risky, and the best way to minimize that risk is to limit partners to those you know and trust - not strangers. Which is a good rule of thumb for most risky sexual activity.
34
#31 Cry bullshit all you want. I really was told that and given attitude about it. Not liking BDSM and still supporting your right to partake in it is not talking out two side of one"s mouth.
I call bullshit on refering to fans of BDSM a "community. It's just some individuals who enjoy the same kinds of activity. Elevating it to the status of "community" paints it as some entity that requires critics to walk on egg shells. Those of us who do not enjoy it can say whatever we want with total impunity and no consequences. BDSM is just one of hundreds of fetishes and holds no special place above others.
For all I know someone may be getting off on reading criticism of it. If so---enjoy.
I call bullshit on refering to fans of BDSM a "community. It's just some individuals who enjoy the same kinds of activity. Elevating it to the status of "community" paints it as some entity that requires critics to walk on egg shells. Those of us who do not enjoy it can say whatever we want with total impunity and no consequences. BDSM is just one of hundreds of fetishes and holds no special place above others.
For all I know someone may be getting off on reading criticism of it. If so---enjoy.
35
you can like the person and not like what they do. you are NOT your actions, folks.
if BDSM folks do not break the law, raise my taxes, exploit children or animals, and do their thing in the privacy of their own homes, i'm fine with it. i don't want what they do outlawed.
my personal opinion? it's stupid, self-indulgent crap for upper middle class white people, and like 'just not into it' says, they're not a community. just people with rather jaded tastes in sex. sacred? bitch, please.
if BDSM folks do not break the law, raise my taxes, exploit children or animals, and do their thing in the privacy of their own homes, i'm fine with it. i don't want what they do outlawed.
my personal opinion? it's stupid, self-indulgent crap for upper middle class white people, and like 'just not into it' says, they're not a community. just people with rather jaded tastes in sex. sacred? bitch, please.
36
Anyone else remember the murder of local talk show host Mike Webb? Some strange parallels between Webb's death and Weber's death
39
@ 24 - well done, well said. You've got it exactly right.
There's always exceptions, but it seems like 95% of the time the gay people who fit the predator stereotype are closeted and repressed. Catholic priests molesting boys? In the closet. Weber? In the closet. John Wayne Gacy? In the closet. Michael Devlin? In the closet.
You see, deep down that's how a lot of the fundies WANT us to be, since we insist on existing. Depraved, dangerous, and our humanity wasted away until all that's left is one pervasive, ugly, deadly sexual impulse. One dimensional, worthy only of disgust and pity - but never respect as someone who has decent human feelings for someone else.
And sure enough, if you're so closeted and brow-beaten that you bury your sexuality completely and never allow yourself to have a relationship with an adult, sexual needs will still find a way out. And when they do, they are hopelessly stunted and dangerous, and they are very selfish.
This event is like porn for Loveschild, because it gratifies all of her preconceptions about gay people. You can almost feel the relief in her posting. Finally, the stereotype! The reason religious people don't want gay marriage or open portrayal of gay relationships is because they fly in the face of the predator image that they have such a vested personal interest in maintaining. If gays aren't diseased and violent and twisted...well, it's just so much harder to feel good inside about loathing them, isn't it?
Lastly, I'm totally fine with people who thing BDSM is weird or wrong but don't think it should be outlawed. Some BDSM people are assholes, some are fuckups, and some aren't. Just like everyone else. You don't have to like somebody to do the right thing or respect their rights.
More...
There's always exceptions, but it seems like 95% of the time the gay people who fit the predator stereotype are closeted and repressed. Catholic priests molesting boys? In the closet. Weber? In the closet. John Wayne Gacy? In the closet. Michael Devlin? In the closet.
You see, deep down that's how a lot of the fundies WANT us to be, since we insist on existing. Depraved, dangerous, and our humanity wasted away until all that's left is one pervasive, ugly, deadly sexual impulse. One dimensional, worthy only of disgust and pity - but never respect as someone who has decent human feelings for someone else.
And sure enough, if you're so closeted and brow-beaten that you bury your sexuality completely and never allow yourself to have a relationship with an adult, sexual needs will still find a way out. And when they do, they are hopelessly stunted and dangerous, and they are very selfish.
This event is like porn for Loveschild, because it gratifies all of her preconceptions about gay people. You can almost feel the relief in her posting. Finally, the stereotype! The reason religious people don't want gay marriage or open portrayal of gay relationships is because they fly in the face of the predator image that they have such a vested personal interest in maintaining. If gays aren't diseased and violent and twisted...well, it's just so much harder to feel good inside about loathing them, isn't it?
Lastly, I'm totally fine with people who thing BDSM is weird or wrong but don't think it should be outlawed. Some BDSM people are assholes, some are fuckups, and some aren't. Just like everyone else. You don't have to like somebody to do the right thing or respect their rights.
42
@ 15, Loveschild - Bitch, Please! Did you just state, in a round-about-way, that because I'm a gay male, that if this were to happen to me, that it was deserving, or that I should have known it would happen, just because I'm gay?
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