Wednesday, March 25, 2009
Boom Stop Building Malls
Posted by Dominic Holden on Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 5:12 PM
This morning I went to Northgate to see the almost-complete Thornton Place, a sprawling compound of condos, apartments, retail and movie theaters that began pre-sale in September and officially kicked off marketing today. So far, no residences have sold.
Reporters and cameramen (note to ECB: they were both men) stood around a condo sales center listening to the pitch. Buster, a massive Bernese Mountain Dog, sprawled in the middle of the floor. The place accepts dogs, we were told. The developers, Lorig Associates and Stellar Holdings, are offering to pay buyers' mortgages for six months if they get laid off, free transit passes, no homeowners association dues through July 2010, and an Ikea gift certificate—anything, nay, everything to get tenants and buyers in the door.
An oversized map on the wall illustrated the proximity from the 275 apartments and 109 condos to Red Robin and the Ram. Northgate Mall, technically, is across the street, but Thornton Place, by adding 25,000 square feet of retail and a 14-screen theater, effectively expands the mall five acres south.
(An adjoining project is the Aljoya, a 143-unit retirement facility that will open later this year. This is how developer Rebecca Almo marketed it: “We named it Aljoya for our family who never had a chance to grow old because they perished in the Holocaust.” I … can’t wait to move in.)
“This isn’t a condo project. This is a neighborhood within a neighborhood,” said Steve Holt, an affable project manager for Lorig Associates. “Most of the retail [faces] into the plaza, and that was intentional,” he says.
Although the project's seemingly greatest virtue is its proximity to transit—the Metro bus station and future light-rail station are steps away—Thornton Place promotes car ownership: It includes 880 parking spaces underground. “We did not assume there would be lots of folks without cars,” Holt says.
A “neighborhood within a neighborhood” and a deliberately car-oriented development is essentially a walled community and a shopping mall. Holt says the design, in part, resulted from a citizen committee, appointed by the mayor's office, that resisted development on the site but agreed to endorse this megaproject, because Thornton Place preserved the creek.
But we shouldn’t be building more malls in Seattle—even malls with creeks and houses. Malls are dying right and left. Other examples of urban malls, such as University Village, are surrounded by rushing arterials that create a traffic clusterfuck, killing walkable, livable neighborhoods. The recipe for thriving, dense neighborhoods—eyes on the street, promotion of small business, and social interaction out on the sidewalks—was established hundreds of years ago: Build businesses to the curb and adhere to the street grid. Don't build malls and homogenous swaths of housing that turn their backs on the city.
Solution: The city should ban projects of this size and layout. Break up this five-acre lot into small parcels (while continuing to save the creek). Four- and six-story apartments are thriving despite the economy—they would thrive even more next to the future light-rail station, planned to open at Northgate in 2020. Lots of small developments designed by different architects would add diversity to the area—some could include zero parking, some could be family-oriented, others can focus on small inexpensive studios, a few could be expensive, and all could contain space for local businesses at the ground level that promote sidewalk activity—to break the mold of a shopping mall. Thornton Place should serve as a cautionary tale: Lest other aging office buildings become candidates for extensions of Northgate—the mall just expanding and expanding—the city should insist that developers adhere to the successful formulas of mixed-development built around the rest of the city.
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4
Yep. Look at this place in context. There's actually a fairly complete street grid of modestly-sized blocks in the area; Northgate Mall and the superblocks immediately south are the major exception (well, that and I-5). Better to extend the grid and develop the new smaller parcels separately.
6
You didn't just say "Four and six-story apartments are thriving despite the economy." Have you visited Ballard lately and seen the new 6 story condos with 25% occupancy and owners desperate to sub-let? Wait, you did just visit Ballard and see that. And write about it. What the F?
10
yes adhere to grid. yes do not require parking. but making them all small lot buildings, no. lots of large buildings facing streets in dc, ny and other real cities look good and you can have nice setbacks and more open space on street level in front of the building, only if you have big lots. all small lots would mean all breadloaf small buildings all crowding right up to the public right of way.
the underlying problem is our streets are narrow and our sidewalks don't have room to be large and all the buildings crowd the streets. solution: allow the big lots but require setbacks and height. this is only way to end breadloafs.
the underlying problem is our streets are narrow and our sidewalks don't have room to be large and all the buildings crowd the streets. solution: allow the big lots but require setbacks and height. this is only way to end breadloafs.
11
@ 6) Touche, Elenchos. "Thriving" may have been too strong a word, but four- and six-story apartments are pretty much the only thing being constructed right now. I think Ballard, in specific, overbuilt. But there are lots of buildings chugging along in other neighborhoods, such as the Chloe on 14th and Union, the apartments on 12th and Pine, stuff down in South Lake Union, and lots of stuff is on the boards around the light-rail stations in South Seattle. Northgate is prime for the same sort of transit-oriented development.
12
You're absolutely right, Dominic. Smaller parcels and diversity really are the cure for bad architecture and make neighborhoods much more appealing and vibrant. I wish our city zoning authorities would realize that.
13
The photos of the parking lot on this post are for the pre-existing park and ride next door. Also, according to the Seattle Times article, 350 spaces of the garage parking will be additional Park & Ride parking.
And frankly given what was previously there, a large parking lot. I'm happy they're building something on it and daylighting the creek that used to run underneath.
And frankly given what was previously there, a large parking lot. I'm happy they're building something on it and daylighting the creek that used to run underneath.
15
So here's my thing. Is it necessarily anti-green to include parking spaces with a building? Because I live on Ballard Avenue in an older building and because there's no associated parking, it makes it much more difficult to leave a car for the day and take transit to work. It's pretty unreasonable to want people to do without cars altogether. For those of us who would like to own a car and use it only occasionally, including a parking space with a unit makes that much, much easier.
17
this project is the result of intense nimbyism from the surrounding community. The noisiest among them were interested only in "daylighting" a small portion of Thorton Creek - all other considerations were secondary to this goal. It is exactly this sort of backward, ignorant, assinine seattle process bullshit that pounds nails into the city's coffin, day after fucking day. Of course the answer is building up to the sidewalk and including spaces for small, local business to thrive. That is what makes a great city great. Instead we get a new home for a fucking Red Robin, facing away from the street and a couple hundred yards of landscaped "creek". whoopty fucking do. No wonder they can't sell any.
18
Thornton Place is pretty amazing - as far as development goes at Northgate. It is unfortunate that the project is opening in the worst economic conditions in nearly 100 years.
Hopefully, future development will be, as you point out, more walkable and be more inviting to pedestrians in scale. And, hopefully, there will be fewer cars in Northgate. Please, let there be fewer cars at Northgate.
Many of us in Pinehurst and in the greater Northgate area are looking forward to station area planning at Northgate and to the potential for an urban design framework and upzone of properties along Northgate Way.
Hopefully, future development will be, as you point out, more walkable and be more inviting to pedestrians in scale. And, hopefully, there will be fewer cars in Northgate. Please, let there be fewer cars at Northgate.
Many of us in Pinehurst and in the greater Northgate area are looking forward to station area planning at Northgate and to the potential for an urban design framework and upzone of properties along Northgate Way.
19
@10: you're insane. Our streets are TOO WIDE, not too narrow. Around Northgate, in particular, the streets are like mini-freeways. What they should do with the streets in that area to help create a neighborhood feel is mandate curbside parking everywhere.
However, that's not practical, and neither are any of Dominic's prescriptions for this particular area. Northgate is a mall, and there's no way to make it not a mall. There's no way to NOT provide all that parking out there; it's simply not possible to live comfortably in a "neighborhood" like that without a car -- and, regardless of what goes on in these units, the mall itself demands massive amounts of car traffic.
The only real hope for an area like this is to wedge as many units in as you can and hope that natural selection will find some way to create real neighborhood uses where frankly none seem likely now. If you've ever tried to cross 5th from the mall side, or Northgate Way, on foot, you'll understand why that area has never and will never be pedestrian-friendly. Almost everyone drives even if they're only going from Target to the mall or vice versa.
If you really want to see a ridiculous example of what paying lip service to pedestrianization while clinging to the mall format, have a look at the abortion of a Barnes and Noble they added onto the side -- with no access from inside. As if the giant parking lot was some sort of village green. It's an absolutely tragic misstep, based on not understanding what really happens at U Village or Alderwood, which have incorporated successful outside bits.
However, that's not practical, and neither are any of Dominic's prescriptions for this particular area. Northgate is a mall, and there's no way to make it not a mall. There's no way to NOT provide all that parking out there; it's simply not possible to live comfortably in a "neighborhood" like that without a car -- and, regardless of what goes on in these units, the mall itself demands massive amounts of car traffic.
The only real hope for an area like this is to wedge as many units in as you can and hope that natural selection will find some way to create real neighborhood uses where frankly none seem likely now. If you've ever tried to cross 5th from the mall side, or Northgate Way, on foot, you'll understand why that area has never and will never be pedestrian-friendly. Almost everyone drives even if they're only going from Target to the mall or vice versa.
If you really want to see a ridiculous example of what paying lip service to pedestrianization while clinging to the mall format, have a look at the abortion of a Barnes and Noble they added onto the side -- with no access from inside. As if the giant parking lot was some sort of village green. It's an absolutely tragic misstep, based on not understanding what really happens at U Village or Alderwood, which have incorporated successful outside bits.
21
Fnarf @ 19) Nothing can stop Northgate from being a mall, but that's no excuse to expand the mall. My suggestions--requiring small-parcel, mixed-use devlopment that meshes with the street grid--is indeed a practical alternative. Future projects near Northgate should adopt the approach.
22
Here's another problem with "building to the sidewalk" (which, by the way, has been one of my mantras for more than twenty years) and "adhering to the street grid": there ain't any. The site is a mega-block, always has been, since they first paved it over. The sidewalks around the edges face either other parking lots or vast streets with either nothing on the other side or something that's too far away to even identify, let alone see as the far wall of the public room.
What they should have done is extended all the streets through -- 102nd, 3rd, and 4th, with street parking and sidewalks, and all the street furniture that makes cities look like cities -- newspaper boxes, light poles, mailboxes, utility boxes, maybe a bench or three. I think that's actually kind of what you're asking for here.
As for daylighting Thornton Creek: much as I would like to see a real creek bearing my name, this is a project doomed to failure. You can talk all you want about "restoring salmon habitat" but it's never going to happen that way. The runoff from Northgate alone is going to be toxic enough to kill any fish that ever made the climb up that far, which none ever will. That energy would be much better used to preserve the real salmon creeks that are threatened -- not dead fifty years, but threatened today.
What they should have done is extended all the streets through -- 102nd, 3rd, and 4th, with street parking and sidewalks, and all the street furniture that makes cities look like cities -- newspaper boxes, light poles, mailboxes, utility boxes, maybe a bench or three. I think that's actually kind of what you're asking for here.
As for daylighting Thornton Creek: much as I would like to see a real creek bearing my name, this is a project doomed to failure. You can talk all you want about "restoring salmon habitat" but it's never going to happen that way. The runoff from Northgate alone is going to be toxic enough to kill any fish that ever made the climb up that far, which none ever will. That energy would be much better used to preserve the real salmon creeks that are threatened -- not dead fifty years, but threatened today.
24
Dom, my point was, I think, that while the kind of thing you advocate makes sense, it ain't going to work next door to a huge mall. Even though I agree with you. And I don't think this will work either.
What's sad is seeing smart concepts adopted as sheep's clothing for the same old, same old -- but if you've been watching urban design for as long as I have you get used to it.
What's sad is seeing smart concepts adopted as sheep's clothing for the same old, same old -- but if you've been watching urban design for as long as I have you get used to it.
25
"Oh, everyone living here is using Light Rail, oh gosh, guess we better just rent out spaces to those park and ride L'users."
29
How sad. I remember, here, a small lake that was no doubt fed by Thornton Creek. My parents had a house close by and there were horses in the field next door.
31
isn't Fnarfs last name Steve Thornton?
can we find his familys elephant graveyard there?
will evil douchebag spirits haunt the new tenants?
can we find his familys elephant graveyard there?
will evil douchebag spirits haunt the new tenants?
32
I just wanted to pop in and add: STEVE HOLT!
The project is a misguided monstrosity, and I hope it fails.
Fails more.
The project is a misguided monstrosity, and I hope it fails.
Fails more.
33
@17 - You should read the NG Neighborhood Plan that the Mayor "broke" to get the lot developed. You might find quite a bit in it you like that the neighborhoods fought for and lost when this Mayor set it aside to enable the development.
@23 - Salmon are returning to TC, and there is an expectation they will return as far as the new daylighted area.
There is an incentive zoning proposal that would break up the superblocks to the north as Dominic and other sin the comments suggest. The developers, despite substantial height bonuses, are balking so far. They are also uncomfortable at requirements to replace 1:1 the many units of affordable housing that currently exists there. All are requests, incidentally, are put forward by the neighborhoods in the area.
@23 - Salmon are returning to TC, and there is an expectation they will return as far as the new daylighted area.
There is an incentive zoning proposal that would break up the superblocks to the north as Dominic and other sin the comments suggest. The developers, despite substantial height bonuses, are balking so far. They are also uncomfortable at requirements to replace 1:1 the many units of affordable housing that currently exists there. All are requests, incidentally, are put forward by the neighborhoods in the area.
34
If you go east of the development, you would find that there are hardly any sidewalks, for anyone. This project has been in construction, for almost two full years. Those of us who live in apartment buildings and condos adjacent to it, have had to endure a living hell, simply to satisfy some mondo silly notion that by increasing density to its maximum in what once was a parking lot, a community would blossom.
Communities develop over time. They are not created on an architect's drawing board and slapped together in two years. Even a so-called "virtual" community such as Facebook needs time.
The Thorton development is what you get when you have a city council where everyone is "at large." Moreover, it is what you get when you have a mayor who lives in a part of the city where such a monstrosity as the Thorton development would never have been built; but in his hopes to increase his position with a constituency he may loose - the Sierra club and related "environmentalists" - as well as fill city coffers with property tax revenue, allowed it to be built.
Now it looks as if all those grand plans are going down the tube. It would have been better to build a massive skateboard park, put out benches for families to watch the action. Now that might have done twice as much to help the community that is already around it. Throw in some sidewalks, on 8th Avenue NE and we'd all be happy campers.
Communities develop over time. They are not created on an architect's drawing board and slapped together in two years. Even a so-called "virtual" community such as Facebook needs time.
The Thorton development is what you get when you have a city council where everyone is "at large." Moreover, it is what you get when you have a mayor who lives in a part of the city where such a monstrosity as the Thorton development would never have been built; but in his hopes to increase his position with a constituency he may loose - the Sierra club and related "environmentalists" - as well as fill city coffers with property tax revenue, allowed it to be built.
Now it looks as if all those grand plans are going down the tube. It would have been better to build a massive skateboard park, put out benches for families to watch the action. Now that might have done twice as much to help the community that is already around it. Throw in some sidewalks, on 8th Avenue NE and we'd all be happy campers.
37
that man's name is the same as that of a character on the tee vee! by which I mean: Steve Holt! You know! From Arrested Development! The show! STEVE HOLT! damn I love that show. steveholtsteveholtsteveholt
38
northgate is too far from 14th and Pine to EVER venture there
I have not left the hill for about 9 years
why should I put my soul at risk in an old mall with few cute men
good luck to those in the outback, is this what they call the projects?
I have not left the hill for about 9 years
why should I put my soul at risk in an old mall with few cute men
good luck to those in the outback, is this what they call the projects?
39
take a photo of the OTHER 3 SIDES. it's way better than the 2 buildings you've shown.
i wouldn't live there, but eventually it will be filled.
i wouldn't live there, but eventually it will be filled.
40
@33 - David, The property owners asked for the upzone.
Many (I can't say all of us and I can't really speak for a full neighborhood) of us in Pinehurst support the upzone. We also support the urban design framework and finding some way to work with the property owners, the city and housing groups to make the affordable housing issue work. I think there is a solution that works for all of us out there. But, realistically, I don't see any new development coming to Northgate for a few years.
The city, especially Paul Fischburg in the mayor's office, is doing a great job at working through these issues with the community and property owners.
Many (I can't say all of us and I can't really speak for a full neighborhood) of us in Pinehurst support the upzone. We also support the urban design framework and finding some way to work with the property owners, the city and housing groups to make the affordable housing issue work. I think there is a solution that works for all of us out there. But, realistically, I don't see any new development coming to Northgate for a few years.
The city, especially Paul Fischburg in the mayor's office, is doing a great job at working through these issues with the community and property owners.
44
While I (of course!) agree with the theory behind the comments by Dominic, Fnarf and others, I am waiting until the project is really done and I can walk through and _around_ it to pass judgment.
(Btw, I especially agree with Dominic's points about breaking up large sites into smaller lots.)
But this site (fairly substantial grades) and its situation (Thornton Creek) were unusual and may have pushed the development in the direction of a "master plan" for the entire site. I wonder how many alternatives there were. Just a question at this point. So my suggestion is to take another look once it is done. It may not be great, but then again, this is Seattle with Seattle process.
Now if you want to look at a really tragic lost opportunity, take a look at the new N'gate public library up the street. It could have been lifted straight from any automobile-oriented suburb. There it is in the middle of one of the major commercial districts in the city yet it was built as one story and without co-locating housing. Wasted opportunity.
(Btw, I especially agree with Dominic's points about breaking up large sites into smaller lots.)
But this site (fairly substantial grades) and its situation (Thornton Creek) were unusual and may have pushed the development in the direction of a "master plan" for the entire site. I wonder how many alternatives there were. Just a question at this point. So my suggestion is to take another look once it is done. It may not be great, but then again, this is Seattle with Seattle process.
Now if you want to look at a really tragic lost opportunity, take a look at the new N'gate public library up the street. It could have been lifted straight from any automobile-oriented suburb. There it is in the middle of one of the major commercial districts in the city yet it was built as one story and without co-locating housing. Wasted opportunity.
45
@38 - you haven't left one area of Seattle in 9 years??? That cannot be healthy. There is an entire world out there - I suggest you go, explore, and try to find something different once in a while.
46
Breaking this development into smaller blocks is a fine idea in theory, but most of these comments (and Dominic's piece) unfortunately are victim to a lack of context. Several developers passed on this site of land because of the vociferous demands to daylight the creek (@ 17 noticed this). Bruce Lorig finally figured out how to make it work with the community. Adding into the mix several different developers, architects, a smaller grid, etc would have doomed this project to many more years of gridlock (and you would now have a parking lot).
At the end of the day, you have almost 400 units next to a park-n-ride (and future light rail), a new green open area, and retail amenities for the community. I'm going to lean towards "that's a good thing".
At the end of the day, you have almost 400 units next to a park-n-ride (and future light rail), a new green open area, and retail amenities for the community. I'm going to lean towards "that's a good thing".
48
easy to be a critic/armchair urban designer when you have no clue about what it takes to make a project pencil given a number of constraints (many of which @49 mentioned), let alone design considerations/constraints for a parcel that is in fact surrounded by uses and/or characteristics that do not necessarily lend themselves to the pedestrian eden you are so longing for: to the north is an enclosed mall surrounded by parking, to the west is a parking lot, to the south are office buildings set back from the street and buffered with surburban-type landscaping, and to the east you have apartments, many of which are perched up on hills and don't relate to the street at all. Can you really imagine a retail business thriving on any of these streets? The short of it is that this site is surrounded by uses that do nothing to contribute to the pedestrian environment, so the natural response is to focus internally. This is not in itself a bad thing in this context, especially when you're trying to create some semblance of a "complete community" in a area where one doesn't currently exist...furthermore, the site does not close itself off from the surrounding community, in fact it invites people in from residential areas to the east with a generous pedestrian path at 5th and 103rd, and has numerous other access points around the perimeter of the site.
49
Northgate was a rapidly dying mall until they finally struck the Thornton Creek daylighting deal. Now that Northgate is finally starting to get some life again (alongside the Target across the road) it means that locals (you know, people who actually LIVE in the north end rather than prattle on from their perch of condescension upon Capitol Hill) don't have to go clear to Lynnwood or into downtown anymore. Aren't fewer auto miles driven a good thing?
Heck, even though the north end's bus system sucks, you have multiple routes all dropping you at Northgate.
Long term you're going to have 800 condos, apartments, and retirement units sitting right next to the park-and-ride -- and when they finally get around to finishing the light rail extension in 2022, a station right on top of one of those P&R lots. It's going to be a lot denser around that station than any of the stations in the Valley. Plus, you'd have a destination at the end of the line -- people will be able to go to Target from Capitol Hill on the train and back.
Oh, and Northgate can't expand much more. To the south is office buildings and medical facilities. To the east is houses, the library, the community center, and the greenbelt, on top of strip malls and that monster condo at 5th and Northgate. North is already where the Target and Best Buy are. West is the freeway. The only area they could expand into is the parking lot -- and there is a plan for one of those outdoor piazza style malls in the NE parking lot, but it was shelved due to money problems. That's it. What you see right now is what you get.
So, you know, Dominic, you could actually talk to the people up here instead of pontificating, but you seem to have a pretty good gig just rambling on about areas of the city you know little about, so I figure you'll stick to your current game plan.
More...
Heck, even though the north end's bus system sucks, you have multiple routes all dropping you at Northgate.
Long term you're going to have 800 condos, apartments, and retirement units sitting right next to the park-and-ride -- and when they finally get around to finishing the light rail extension in 2022, a station right on top of one of those P&R lots. It's going to be a lot denser around that station than any of the stations in the Valley. Plus, you'd have a destination at the end of the line -- people will be able to go to Target from Capitol Hill on the train and back.
Oh, and Northgate can't expand much more. To the south is office buildings and medical facilities. To the east is houses, the library, the community center, and the greenbelt, on top of strip malls and that monster condo at 5th and Northgate. North is already where the Target and Best Buy are. West is the freeway. The only area they could expand into is the parking lot -- and there is a plan for one of those outdoor piazza style malls in the NE parking lot, but it was shelved due to money problems. That's it. What you see right now is what you get.
So, you know, Dominic, you could actually talk to the people up here instead of pontificating, but you seem to have a pretty good gig just rambling on about areas of the city you know little about, so I figure you'll stick to your current game plan.
50
Adhere to the grid? Seriously? Remember what used to be there? a giant PARKING LOT. No grid. And with I-5 on one side and rambling residential on the other, there isn't really an effective grid in that region. I live fairly close to there, and I'm pretty pleased with a dense residential/commercial development of ANY kind. I'm surprised they didn't just put in a Costco.
51
@49 - You could actually read the news instead of pontificating. Northgate can absolutely expand more. And, in time it will expand more. There is an upzone of all the "strip malls" along Northgate Way on the table. And, planning for the new light rail will almost certainly involve upzones south of the mall where the trail station will be located.
53
Wow...what a bunch of regressive nimby whiners on here. The Stranger and seemingly anti everything readership fails to see how progressive this project is. what a disappointment.
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