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News & ArtsWednesday, March 25, 2009
Homo Meanwhile in Vermont
Posted by Dan Savage on Wed, Mar 25, 2009 at 12:58 PM
If the governor of Vermont—Jim Douglas, a Republican—says he wants the Vermont state legislature to stop wasting its time on marriage equality and focus instead on the economy. If that's what Douglas wants then he should sign the gay marriage bill when it reaches his desk. Instead he announced today that he plans to veto the bill... which will result in the legislature having to shift its focus to the issue of marriage equality again when it moves to override the governor's veto.
The quickest way for a governor—or, ahem, a newly-elected president—to clear away the distracting gay marriage debate is to legalize same-sex marriage already. If marriage equality really is a trivial matter in comparison to, say, the economy (and I would argue that it is), then schedule a quick debate on marriage equality (or a federal civil unions bill that includes all the same rights and responsibilities as marriage), pass marriage-equality bill, sign that sucker into law, and the debate over marriage equality will never again distract us from more important matters like the economy or health care or winding down the war in Iraq.
1
Er... didn't tackling the "gay agenda" first thing outta the gate already derail one Democratic presidents agenda, two presidents back?
(And with that... let the troll wars begin!)
2
uh dan did i just read "give me what i want so we can move onto more important stuff"? this logic didn't work too well with my parents when i was 6 and wanted a gameboy and they wanted me to do my homework.
3
Why can't he say why he really wants to veto the bill. Why say that he will veto the bill so that the state of Vermont can focus on the economy and other issues, when he already recognizes that the legislature will override him, and to do that will delay there getting to work on the economy? I just don't get his reasoning.
6
Fuuuuuuuuck, did you have to put in the last line? I guess that cues the Dan Savage Iraq troll. I'll throw in a preemptive "fuck you" to that troll so I can scroll past his comment.
8
From the news story:
Can anyone say grandstanding for a future presidential bid?
However, Douglas conceded that lawmakers would likely override his veto. "I'm sure that legislative leaders would not have advanced this bill if they did not have the votes to override a veto. I will accept the outcome of their vote either way."
Can anyone say grandstanding for a future presidential bid?
10
If just having a quick debate and passing a law puts the issue behind us, then how come DOMA wasn't the end of it? Or the Civil Rights Act of 1964 -- the divide over that resonates to this day in the careers of Sarah Palin or Bobby Jindal. I guess you could settle it with a Supreme Court decision, the way Roe v Wade put an end to the abortion debate.
Um. Or not. How about a vote? Just put it up to a vote, like California did with Prop 8. Everyone has their say, casts their ballot, and that's the end of it for everybody!
No?
I guess the only way to settle anything is to actually settle it.
Um. Or not. How about a vote? Just put it up to a vote, like California did with Prop 8. Everyone has their say, casts their ballot, and that's the end of it for everybody!
No?
I guess the only way to settle anything is to actually settle it.
11
How could gay marriage be trivial if it consistently inspires conservatives / Republicans to trip all over themselves to ban it or otherwise prevent it from happening? Either gays marryin' is a significant threat to our collective well being (a dubious claim) or it's trivial. If the latter, why all the fuss over the past 10-ish years? I'd feel less insulted if the governor would just say something trite about the sanctity of marriage, mothers and fathers, blah, blah.
12
Legalizing gay marriage might be good for Vermont's economy, which I imagine is largely based on tourism.
13
Yes. It will certainly end the distraction of that debate. Much like no one ever gets distracted by talking about abortions.
16
VT has a republican governor because the Democratic Party and Independent party split about 60-something percent of the vote... assholes.
And c'mon, getting the economy moving is more important than gay marriage, right? I mean, it's not like legalizing gay marriage would have a stimulative effect on the economy, right? People getting married, some of them spending assloads of money on big ol' weddings, doesn't help the economy at all...
And c'mon, getting the economy moving is more important than gay marriage, right? I mean, it's not like legalizing gay marriage would have a stimulative effect on the economy, right? People getting married, some of them spending assloads of money on big ol' weddings, doesn't help the economy at all...
17
And the prospect of self centered affluent queer DINKs blowing $60,000 on their third or fourth "wedding" inspires the average American struggling to get by and support their families to...;
oh yeah...;
to retch.
And the prospect of self centered affluent queer DINKs blowing $60,000 on their third or fourth "wedding" inspires the average American struggling to get by and support their families to...;
oh yeah...;
to retch.
18
Yes, because Roe v. Wade totally ended all debate on abortion. After that, no one talked about abortion ever again.
He's just covering his back politically. Fuck the right.
He's just covering his back politically. Fuck the right.
19
@3,4 - I know your comment was rhetorical, but I’ll answer anyway (sorry).
He has to prove that he’s a moralistic-right-wing-pseudo-christian-republican by never, ever approving equal rights. He may not care one whit whether gay’s have the right to marry, personally, but he perhaps thinks (perhaps correctly) that the republicans and others who voted him in care about it.
Or maybe this is his big “fuck you” to the legislature. While I think he’d get more political capital by signing the bill and making the legislature stick to his budget, or approve his pet plans to stimulate the economy, or whatever he wants in return for his signature (free parking downtown?), he’s not going to sign it on “principal”. But he’s not going to out-and-out say that it’s because he thinks gays are perverse and should be burned on the pyre (he’s too dignified?), but instead change the focus away from himself: the best defense is a good offense… “Those pinko commies don’t care about your well-being or your future, they have an agenda unrelated to our current situation.”
He has to prove that he’s a moralistic-right-wing-pseudo-christian-republican by never, ever approving equal rights. He may not care one whit whether gay’s have the right to marry, personally, but he perhaps thinks (perhaps correctly) that the republicans and others who voted him in care about it.
Or maybe this is his big “fuck you” to the legislature. While I think he’d get more political capital by signing the bill and making the legislature stick to his budget, or approve his pet plans to stimulate the economy, or whatever he wants in return for his signature (free parking downtown?), he’s not going to sign it on “principal”. But he’s not going to out-and-out say that it’s because he thinks gays are perverse and should be burned on the pyre (he’s too dignified?), but instead change the focus away from himself: the best defense is a good offense… “Those pinko commies don’t care about your well-being or your future, they have an agenda unrelated to our current situation.”
20
Dear Average American (#17),
this kind of attitude is what makes you average. That 4th wedding stimulates the economy by putting money in the pockets of florists, celebrants, jewelers and drivers. These people then need their sewers fixed, and so they call you. It's win win.
PS Are you the same 'Average American' that got a sub-prime mortgage and over extended yourself?, because if so then fuck you!
Love
Donut
this kind of attitude is what makes you average. That 4th wedding stimulates the economy by putting money in the pockets of florists, celebrants, jewelers and drivers. These people then need their sewers fixed, and so they call you. It's win win.
PS Are you the same 'Average American' that got a sub-prime mortgage and over extended yourself?, because if so then fuck you!
Love
Donut
21
Very good points, Dan.
Plus, let's be honest here, allowing gay marriage increases the amount of wedding and engagement tourism and this really helps during tough times.
Plus, let's be honest here, allowing gay marriage increases the amount of wedding and engagement tourism and this really helps during tough times.
22
@7 - The people already fairly and democratically voted on this when they elected people to represent them in the legislature. That's how representative democracy works.
23
@22 Thank you for a lovely point. Now, if only people could comprehend what it means *sigh*. We're not a direct democracy, so prop 8 was fundamentally wrong.
24
@17:
Gee, Gays can't even get teh married just one time, but you want to ascribe multiple marriage/divorces on them already.
Last time I checked, the only people who could blow $60,000 on their fourth marriage were us straight people.
But, I don't hear you carping much about that, do I?
Gee, Gays can't even get teh married just one time, but you want to ascribe multiple marriage/divorces on them already.
Last time I checked, the only people who could blow $60,000 on their fourth marriage were us straight people.
But, I don't hear you carping much about that, do I?
25
Let's see now,
there is the wedding when Gavin Newson was passing out marriage certificates, then the wedding in Mass., then the time we went to Canada...
Every time the subject comes up NPR interviews some lesbian couple looking to finally get it right.
there is the wedding when Gavin Newson was passing out marriage certificates, then the wedding in Mass., then the time we went to Canada...
Every time the subject comes up NPR interviews some lesbian couple looking to finally get it right.
26
Allyn @ 19,
I don't mind you answering my rehtorical question one little bit. I agree with you. I'm just sick of the games.
Thanks.
I don't mind you answering my rehtorical question one little bit. I agree with you. I'm just sick of the games.
Thanks.
27
22
Where was the "fairly elected and decided" crowd when California voters banned gay marriage, twice?
Where was the "fairly elected and decided" crowd when California voters banned gay marriage, twice?
28
Comte is right. It's us straights that are destroying the institution of marriage with all our divorces. With 1:2 marriages ending in divorce we're excellent examples to follow.
29
Comte and Kim -
It seems that anyone who has ever had a divorce or broken up with a fiancé would never dare to oppose gay marriage. “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone,” after all. And if you count up all the pro-equal-rights folks out there and add to that the number of divorcees and then to that number add in anyone who has broken up after agreeing to marry someone and anyone who has ever cheated on their spouse, certainly that’s more than 50% of the population (and most lawmakers, really). Yes, we het’s have done a bang-up job protecting marriage, haven’t we?
It seems that anyone who has ever had a divorce or broken up with a fiancé would never dare to oppose gay marriage. “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone,” after all. And if you count up all the pro-equal-rights folks out there and add to that the number of divorcees and then to that number add in anyone who has broken up after agreeing to marry someone and anyone who has ever cheated on their spouse, certainly that’s more than 50% of the population (and most lawmakers, really). Yes, we het’s have done a bang-up job protecting marriage, haven’t we?
30
Uhm, 27,
We elect representatives in California, not voters.
But we're also stuck with the proposition system in California, so to address your point, the issue is not decided. We can vote on it as many times as it makes the ballot. So if we can vote three straight times on parental notification for teenage abortion (a rightwing issue) without complaint from the likes of you, we can also keep voting on equality marriage. That's the way it is.
See, not decided.
If it isn't obvious, I hate the proposition system we have since we're routinely asked to make decisions on large-scale financial projects and social issues that require weeks of careful deliberation, not the five minutes most people do the night before the election. But that's me.
We elect representatives in California, not voters.
But we're also stuck with the proposition system in California, so to address your point, the issue is not decided. We can vote on it as many times as it makes the ballot. So if we can vote three straight times on parental notification for teenage abortion (a rightwing issue) without complaint from the likes of you, we can also keep voting on equality marriage. That's the way it is.
See, not decided.
If it isn't obvious, I hate the proposition system we have since we're routinely asked to make decisions on large-scale financial projects and social issues that require weeks of careful deliberation, not the five minutes most people do the night before the election. But that's me.
31
I say good on him, I'm not a republican but I recognize a true honest man not a demagogue looking for political positioning like the slimy mayor of San Francisco. No matter what the activist mob like legislature of Vermont end up forcing on the people, the governor who was chosen by the people to keep in order the state needs to do in his word. I would love to ask the legislature there, if the people of Vermont are so in favor of gay marriage, why don't you put it for a vote? If it passes it will be seen as a legitimate decision even by those who oppose it. But no they rather go the same road that Massachusetts and Connecticut have, imposing it on the people.
Setting up little made up forums were seventeen year olds come to tell them how much civil unions alone are affecting their future is not hearing the people. I just couldn't agree more with the governor the economy is crumbling and all those clowns can think deserves their time is gay marriage.
Setting up little made up forums were seventeen year olds come to tell them how much civil unions alone are affecting their future is not hearing the people. I just couldn't agree more with the governor the economy is crumbling and all those clowns can think deserves their time is gay marriage.
32
@31:
Um, what part of "covering my political ass for a Presidential run in 2012, even though it means going against the expressed wishes of the people who voted for me to represent them" don't you get?
If that doesn't constitute "political positioning" by your own definition, I can't possibly imagine what else would.
Um, what part of "covering my political ass for a Presidential run in 2012, even though it means going against the expressed wishes of the people who voted for me to represent them" don't you get?
If that doesn't constitute "political positioning" by your own definition, I can't possibly imagine what else would.
33
@31. It’s funny. Before I saw your name at the end of the message, I read “activist mob like legislature of Vermont end up forcing on the people,” and thought: “Loveschild!!”
The reason legislators and governors and presidents and judges decide our laws, and not the citizens by vote, is because, and perhaps you missed this last time, we live in a representational democracy -- a democratic republic. Our founders, in their great wisdom realized that people can be fickle and unreasonable (and these men loved reason).
Oh, you know what? It doesn’t matter… you have missed the lesson on self-governance from social studies class. I have an idea – listen to the podcast “My History Can Beat Up Your Politics.” Then come back and let’s discuss.
The reason legislators and governors and presidents and judges decide our laws, and not the citizens by vote, is because, and perhaps you missed this last time, we live in a representational democracy -- a democratic republic. Our founders, in their great wisdom realized that people can be fickle and unreasonable (and these men loved reason).
Oh, you know what? It doesn’t matter… you have missed the lesson on self-governance from social studies class. I have an idea – listen to the podcast “My History Can Beat Up Your Politics.” Then come back and let’s discuss.
34
32 Yeah, nothing says Presidential aspirations like being the governor of an obscure little and might I add as your link shows out of touch in many things with the rest of america state like Vermont.
Again, my question is very simple, If Vermonters are so in favor of gay marriage why not make it legitimate by putting it for vote?
If it passes, wouldn't that silence any opposition and be seen in a better light than the tyrannical impositions made in the neighboring states?
Again, my question is very simple, If Vermonters are so in favor of gay marriage why not make it legitimate by putting it for vote?
If it passes, wouldn't that silence any opposition and be seen in a better light than the tyrannical impositions made in the neighboring states?
35
Your first sentence is a huge grammar failure. Aren't you supposed to be the fucking editor? I guess you don't need to know how to write when conducting a shamefully failing bid for Mayor.
36
We should have a vote on who would like to take away Loveschild's civil rights. Majority rules. Then we can be done with it and move on to a better dialogue.
37
Again, the people of Vermont already voted when they chose their representatives. If they are so truly outraged and suprised by this, they can elect a new set to overturn it. We call this representative democracy.
Odds are though, like everywhere else, including this large area to our north where equality marriage is legal from coast to coast, they won't care enough to do so.
Odds are though, like everywhere else, including this large area to our north where equality marriage is legal from coast to coast, they won't care enough to do so.
38
35 LOL, trust me if I was the editor I wouldn't allow anyone to blog about this sort of stories that produce nothing of value for society.
My question is simple, but I see you can't come up with any sound response.
Real democracy is threatening to those with oppressive tendencies.
My question is simple, but I see you can't come up with any sound response.
Real democracy is threatening to those with oppressive tendencies.
41
Re 38 Oh my god, the sanctimony is just off the charts...."this sort of story that produces nothing of value for society"...that you just can't stop commenting on.
I don't want the majority deciding for the minority - and I'm a member of the majority.
If we did allow the majority to decide at every turn, women would not be allowed to vote (well, until women got smart and emulated Lysistrata), slavery would still be legal, etc. And I don't understand at how people don't see this.
I don't want the majority deciding for the minority - and I'm a member of the majority.
If we did allow the majority to decide at every turn, women would not be allowed to vote (well, until women got smart and emulated Lysistrata), slavery would still be legal, etc. And I don't understand at how people don't see this.
43
LC@34 - you've obviously never heard of Howard Dean. The more I learn about you, the more pathetic you become.
44
Oh dear sweet Loveschild, Zeus, Hera, and Apollo, bless your li'l ol' gay hating heart. Can you even rationally explain why you don't like gay people? Can you give a reason why it bothers you that gay people are getting married? You have an irrational fear of gay people. I wonder what is behind that?
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