Slog
News & ArtsTuesday, March 24, 2009
Savage Love Savage Love Letter of the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Tue, Mar 24, 2009 at 3:23 PM
My fiance is bisexual. I am happy to fulfill his “man-love” fantasies by strapping it on and giving it to him, but he has recently started talking about wanting to have sex with men. I feel like kind of a jerk for freaking out about this—like I’m repressing his sexuality—but I’m not willing to entertain the emotional and physical risks of opening our relationship to another person and I don’t think its reasonable for him to expect me to be ok with it. Am I totally off base here, Dan?What The Fuck Is Wrong With Men These Days
Do not marry this man.
Many bisexual guys are capable of monogamy, as are many bisexual girls. (That's what the bisexuals tell me, at any rate, in their long and angry emails.) But this bisexual guy is not and he's made that plain. He gets points for being honest. You can extract a promise from him to remain faithful to you, WTFIWWMTD, but in the end you'll wind up with all the emotional and physical risks of an open relationship without any of the honesty that makes open relationships work.
And to the angry bisexuals: You know that I don't think all those pathetic monosexuals are very good at monogamy either, right?
2
Fuck you, Dan. This is absurd. There's no difference between what this guy is proposing and a straight guy proposing swinging.
This is not DTMFA-able action on his part, and I can't believe your own personal "de facto" monogamy is any nobler than a bisexual not converting to whatever monosexuality his life partner demands.
A lot of the assholes who cheat on their wives with dudes are bisexuals who can't come out of the closet because there's no healthy respect for being bi in either the gay or straight community. You villify those men in these pages and elsewhere, yet have no problem contributing to the repression of their viable sexual behavior.
If she's worried about the future of her marriage, why not suggest counseling, communication - you know, the fucking things that work - rather than dropping everything? Way to show him that being bisexual after marriage is wrong.
You used to be cool, Savage.
This is not DTMFA-able action on his part, and I can't believe your own personal "de facto" monogamy is any nobler than a bisexual not converting to whatever monosexuality his life partner demands.
A lot of the assholes who cheat on their wives with dudes are bisexuals who can't come out of the closet because there's no healthy respect for being bi in either the gay or straight community. You villify those men in these pages and elsewhere, yet have no problem contributing to the repression of their viable sexual behavior.
If she's worried about the future of her marriage, why not suggest counseling, communication - you know, the fucking things that work - rather than dropping everything? Way to show him that being bisexual after marriage is wrong.
You used to be cool, Savage.
4
@2, i think this woman, based on her letter, would have an issue with swinging as well. there's a difference between homophobia, and a desire from monogamy. this woman is portraying the latter.
5
Ziggity@2, that's the point. Pretend he's not bi, but straight. He wants to have sex with other women, but she doesn't want to do it. What answer would you give?
I don't agree with the advice to not marry this man. I think she could marry this man if she's prepared to be cheated on. If she's okay with that, then by all means...
I don't agree with the advice to not marry this man. I think she could marry this man if she's prepared to be cheated on. If she's okay with that, then by all means...
6
@ 2 Ya know...he really wasn't saying that all bisexuals can't do monogamy, but the girls fiance seems pretty clear that she's not okay with non-monogamy, and her finance is honest enough to say that he pretty much wants non-monogamy. That is a fundamental difference. There really isn't any good way to overcome that, besides unwanted tension which would probably lead to a break up anyways. One thing about swinging is that oh, both people kind of need to be up for it to work. And counseling won't make someone who is not monogamous monogamous. That's not how things work.
8
What was that a couple years ago about the Karmic Rule of Kink, Dan? That applies to this case, too: ditch the honest bisexual and you'll wind up marrying the dishonest closet case.
9
Ziggity needs to switch to decaff...
Anyway, I think her fiance is gay and so do you Dan. Your answer screams it. Years ago you were scathing to these cupboarded* homos masquerading as bis \if there is such a thing\ but it feels like you give them a free pass since pop culture loves them bis. \at least when they are 16 yo girls making out on youtube\
*sort of in a mini closet
Anyway, I think her fiance is gay and so do you Dan. Your answer screams it. Years ago you were scathing to these cupboarded* homos masquerading as bis \if there is such a thing\ but it feels like you give them a free pass since pop culture loves them bis. \at least when they are 16 yo girls making out on youtube\
*sort of in a mini closet
10
@2: and she doesn't want to open the relationship to another person- ANY other person. If she wants monogamy, then she shouldn't marry this guy. Did you even read the damn letter?
11
@2 because GGG doesn't mean automatically giving up agency in the sexual relationship (anything goes), it means WTFIWWMTD needs to give a good faith effort to understand and come to terms with her fiance's kink.
If she's not comfortable with his polyamory (by no means a 'given' like oral sex) after giving it her best shot to understand, then they don't belong together. No DTMFA involved. they just aren't long-term compatible.
If she's not comfortable with his polyamory (by no means a 'given' like oral sex) after giving it her best shot to understand, then they don't belong together. No DTMFA involved. they just aren't long-term compatible.
12
@2- Polyamory in a previously monogomous relationship is not an inalienable right, regardless of the gender of the proposed partners. If you ask your partner to open up your relationship (or cheat on them), you risk losing them. That doesn't make the person asking for an open relationship bad, it just makes them incompatible with their current partner.
13
Right, so . . . went on a bit of a tear.
Yes, I re-read the letter, and the points most of you are making are legit.
I guess I'm tired of people like @9 and Dan who believe that bisexuals are either gay, straight, or lying, and that a monogamous bisexual is a contradiction in terms. (Yes, I see Dan played the "everybody cheats" blanket to cover his accusations, and that the dude in question has admitted that he wants to.)
But the point is, like a straight person who wants to swing, bis don't always cheat when the answer from their spouse is no. That's the rub here - and what I was trying to get at in my first post.
Yes, I re-read the letter, and the points most of you are making are legit.
I guess I'm tired of people like @9 and Dan who believe that bisexuals are either gay, straight, or lying, and that a monogamous bisexual is a contradiction in terms. (Yes, I see Dan played the "everybody cheats" blanket to cover his accusations, and that the dude in question has admitted that he wants to.)
But the point is, like a straight person who wants to swing, bis don't always cheat when the answer from their spouse is no. That's the rub here - and what I was trying to get at in my first post.
14
Maybe there needs to be an alternative acronym for cases where you need to DTpersonA, but the person in question isn't a MF. Like DTPA, or DTNBIPA (Nice But Incompatible Person), or something like that.
15
@13 is your language in your first post true to your beliefs? It seems to buy into the whole 'bis can't be monogamous' idea. Do you really view a monogamous relationship as 'converting to whatever monosexuality his life partner demands'? That makes it sound like monogamy is a compromise that you're forced to take as a bisexual.
I often find Mr. Savage's (half joking, one hopes?) dismissals of the existence of bisexuals irking as well, because people listen to what he says and take cues from him on sexuality. The bi community doesn't need to be marginalized by someone whose own sexuality is marginalized in greater society.
I often find Mr. Savage's (half joking, one hopes?) dismissals of the existence of bisexuals irking as well, because people listen to what he says and take cues from him on sexuality. The bi community doesn't need to be marginalized by someone whose own sexuality is marginalized in greater society.
16
@15: No, I believe a person can continue to be bisexual while in a monogamous relationship. I was trying to draw a comparison between Dan's advice and his own personal relationship's monogamy.
17
Good advice to not marry him.
Seriously, it's just going to become more and more of an issue and he's going to start cheating on you (which he'll think is ok, since he's not sleeping with other women ...)
Seriously, it's just going to become more and more of an issue and he's going to start cheating on you (which he'll think is ok, since he's not sleeping with other women ...)
18
@16 But Dan's not monogamous, he's said so constantly. He's mostly monogamous because he has lots of rules around his son, but he talks about he and his boyfriend having a third occasionally.
20
@2: That's true that there's not much difference. And when a woman writes in saying "My straight fiance insists on swinging after we're married but I don't want him to," Dan gives her the exact same advice.
21
I can't believe no one yet has commented on her saying doing her fiance with a strap-on counts as a fulfillment of "'man-love' fantasies"!
Aside from that, I agree with Dan's advice.
Aside from that, I agree with Dan's advice.
22
Oh Dan! Ohhhhhh Dan! I am so geared up for your mayoral campaign. I've been combing the Slog archives for your best writings. I want the citizens of Seattle to know the real Dan Savage. Compassionate, thoughtful, empathetic, generous, OH Dan!!! I can hardly wait for the campaign to begin. I'll be there for you Dan. I'll be there for you every day promoting your past musings on matters large and small to the citizens of Seattle.
Must I report my expenditures to your campaign if we don't collude on the message?
Must I report my expenditures to your campaign if we don't collude on the message?
23
dan is dead-on correct.
there are bisexuals (closeted or out) that can truly be faithful to their life partners.
keep looking WTFIWWMTD.
there are bisexuals (closeted or out) that can truly be faithful to their life partners.
keep looking WTFIWWMTD.
24
Dan :
Would you please make some kind of statement on whether you think the Kinsey 1-6 scale is valid? And if you do, isn't it worth thinking about why it isn't a 1-3 scale?
BTW I'm a happily monogamous 3 and I have never had a problem with your comments about bi's.
Would you please make some kind of statement on whether you think the Kinsey 1-6 scale is valid? And if you do, isn't it worth thinking about why it isn't a 1-3 scale?
BTW I'm a happily monogamous 3 and I have never had a problem with your comments about bi's.
25
#24, this is a great question and I hope he answers it.
Keep in mind, though, that Dan isn't a scientist, so his response would be simply anecdotes and opinion. That doesn't invalidate them. As with all of his writings, they'd be thoughtful, intelligent, valid opinions definitely worth reading (whether I agree with them or not). But opinions, nonetheless.
BTW, I, too, am a 3, and I always appreciate what Dan says about bisexuals (all orientations, actually). I honestly don't understand why people take such offense.
Keep in mind, though, that Dan isn't a scientist, so his response would be simply anecdotes and opinion. That doesn't invalidate them. As with all of his writings, they'd be thoughtful, intelligent, valid opinions definitely worth reading (whether I agree with them or not). But opinions, nonetheless.
BTW, I, too, am a 3, and I always appreciate what Dan says about bisexuals (all orientations, actually). I honestly don't understand why people take such offense.
26
There's a bi community? You gota be kidding me.
And Dan's right as usual. I know one bi guy that couldn't/wouldn't be (wasn't) monogamous. He's also not married anymore.
And Dan's right as usual. I know one bi guy that couldn't/wouldn't be (wasn't) monogamous. He's also not married anymore.
27
The bi community is located under the same umbrella as the gay, lesbian, and trans community.
Which is to say, no.
There's a bi community?
The bi community is located under the same umbrella as the gay, lesbian, and trans community.
Which is to say, no.
28
@24: The Kinsey scale was actually designed as a measure of sexual *experience* not sexual *orientation*. A lot of people use it for the latter, but that's technically not correct. Of course, this has nothing to do with whether the construct that it represents as a measure of orientation is valid, only with whether "kinsey scale" is a correct term for that construct.
29
@28: It sounds like you got my intent though, which is what really matters. We all need to think about and ultimately find our answer to this question.
It's the lack of agreement on the existence of any orientation other than 1 that is at the heart of sexual politics. By that I mean that there is a widely held belief that 2-6 is a matter of behavior and choice.
You can't achieve equality if you don't first get recognition of your existence. Without that any rights you win today will only be concessions to you in the short term. The next Prop 8 will always hang over your head.
There is little point in trying to integrate schools if there is still slavery.
It's the lack of agreement on the existence of any orientation other than 1 that is at the heart of sexual politics. By that I mean that there is a widely held belief that 2-6 is a matter of behavior and choice.
You can't achieve equality if you don't first get recognition of your existence. Without that any rights you win today will only be concessions to you in the short term. The next Prop 8 will always hang over your head.
There is little point in trying to integrate schools if there is still slavery.
30
@28: Yes, you are right. Also, the scale is 0-6 with an additional "X" for asexual. That puts me at 2 not 3. Thanks.
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