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News & ArtsMonday, March 23, 2009
Savage Love Savage Love Letter of the Day
Posted by Dan Savage on Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 4:03 PM
No, no, no. Your advice to the guy that wanted to fulfill his rape fantasy set this guy (and his "date") up for potential big trouble. You can have all the pre-agreements, digital audio recordings, e-mails, safe words, signed contracts in the world... and even with all that, events could go very, very wrong, very, very quickly. I thought you would continue with the line of thinking that you started in referencing the Jovanovic case. The take home message: it ain't worth it.The best advice? Keep it to fantasy.
Best,
P. Michele Sugg, MSW, LCSW, CST
www.MicheleSugg.com
Thanks for writing, and congrats on the MSW, LCSW, CST, etc. I've only just earned my CBT, P., but if I may so bold: I disagree. "Keep it a fantasy" is not the best advice for people with edgy but realizable fantasies.
In this case the girl with the rape victim fantasies and the boy with the rape victimizer fantasies can explore their fantasies in relative safety—and that “relative” acknowledges, of course, that there will always be some degree of risk. But there are always risks, P., aren’t there? Plain vanilla intercourse involving long-term partners has wound up in court. The risks are much higher, of course, when you're talking edgy fantasy-fulfillment sex with a near stranger, which is why I urged these two rape fantasists to take all reasonable (get it in writing, have a safe word, meet in a public first) and unreasonable (make an audio recording) precautions.
Your advice—bottle those fantasies up, never act on them, because there’s risk!—is, in my opinion (and remember I have a CBT), unrealistic as well as potentially and paradoxically more dangerous.
First, unfulfilled fantasies increase the total amount of misery in the world. And while it’s easy for people whose fantasies run toward flower petals strewn on bedspreads to tell people with darker fantasies to “keep it to fantasy,” sexual fantasies aren’t passing fancies; they’re obsessions, a tape loop that plays endlessly in your head. Keeping it to fantasy doesn’t make it go away; if anything doing so induces despair—unnecessary despair. If your fantasy is yin to someone else's fantasy yang, and if your fantasies can be realized without harming anyone (no kids, no corpses, no permanent damage), you’ll both be happier and more content once you find each other.
And wasn't the whole damn Internet invented to help you find the people you’re looking for, people who might be online right now looking for you? If you can find your match—online or wherever—then you ought to go for it. Carefully, thoughtfully, safely and only after taking all reasonable precautions.
Someone who takes your advice, P., and bottles it up for life, never acts on it, “keeps it a fantasy," can struggle to do just that. A kinkster may even succeed. But the kinkster will be less happy as a result. The kinkster may also, I contend, be a danger to herself. Take the girl with a rape fantasy: If an opportunity to realize her fantasy suddenly presents itself when she’s in an impaired state—say, when she’s had a few and confesses her rape fantasies to some stranger, also drunk, in some bar or other—she may decide to go for it, on impulse, without doing the advance work, without taking those necessary precautions, because her reptile brain recognizes that this may be her one and only chance to make this fantasy a reality.
It’s easier for someone with an edgy fantasy to resist an unexpected opportunity to realize it if she has permission—from me, from you, from herself—to act on it at an appropriate time, and in an appropriate fashion, with an appropriately vetted partner.
1
This is why we love you Mr. Savage. Thanks for talking about the realities of what happens when fantasies go unfulfilled. Vanilla peeps NEVER get this aspect....
2
Of course, I wouldn't know anything about this, because I don't have any of those "deep, dark sexual fantasies." Ahem.
Right on, Dan. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'd rather regret the things I did do than regret the things I didn't. Hope those two kinksters have a fun and rewarding experience together.
Right on, Dan. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I'd rather regret the things I did do than regret the things I didn't. Hope those two kinksters have a fun and rewarding experience together.
5
Dear Dan,
I am sorry if the fact that I am a certified sex therapist, and have worked in the field for years, threatens you to the point where you attack my education and degrees.
I will not do the same to you.
Unfortunately you left out the most salient part of my letter to you- and here it is, verbatim-" You can have all the pre-agreements, digital audio recordings, e-mails, safe words, signed contracts in the world... and even with all that, events could go very, very wrong, very, very quickly. " And they CAN.
I have worked on a Rape Crisis Team, and even "fantasies" can get out of control and out of hand quickly, to devastating results, for both men and women of all sexual preferences, and transfolk. My intention in writing you was not to be nasty, but informative.
In a follow up e-mail to you, here's what I said-
"I understand what you're saying, Dan, and in theory I agree with you.
HOWEVER there are some areas where people take upon themselves legal risks that IMHO aren't worth it. The stakes are enormously high if things go wrong- arrest, adjudication, trial, prison... This guys concerns were justified, and you started out with important information that really speaks for itself."
The following are YOUR words, NOT mine-
"Your advice—bottle those fantasies up, never act on them, because there’s risk!"
I never said that. And that is clearly NOT what I am saying.
Dan, every mental health professional, attorney, sex positive person I know, shuddered at your advice. Why? The law is not designed to address what you are supporting .
This is NOT a vanilla vs. kinky issue. Let's just get THAT argument right out of the way.
This is about taking legal risks that are absolutely not worth it.
HOWEVER- I would ask those of you reading this blog, that you consider what the real point is, from someone who is not a famous blogger, but a sex therapy professional working in the field - that even with all of the "back-up" e-mails, digital audio recording, pre-agreements, ad infinitum, ... if things go wrong and a scenario such as this ends up in front of a jury- "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck..."
...Nuff said. Best, Michele
More...
I am sorry if the fact that I am a certified sex therapist, and have worked in the field for years, threatens you to the point where you attack my education and degrees.
I will not do the same to you.
Unfortunately you left out the most salient part of my letter to you- and here it is, verbatim-" You can have all the pre-agreements, digital audio recordings, e-mails, safe words, signed contracts in the world... and even with all that, events could go very, very wrong, very, very quickly. " And they CAN.
I have worked on a Rape Crisis Team, and even "fantasies" can get out of control and out of hand quickly, to devastating results, for both men and women of all sexual preferences, and transfolk. My intention in writing you was not to be nasty, but informative.
In a follow up e-mail to you, here's what I said-
"I understand what you're saying, Dan, and in theory I agree with you.
HOWEVER there are some areas where people take upon themselves legal risks that IMHO aren't worth it. The stakes are enormously high if things go wrong- arrest, adjudication, trial, prison... This guys concerns were justified, and you started out with important information that really speaks for itself."
The following are YOUR words, NOT mine-
"Your advice—bottle those fantasies up, never act on them, because there’s risk!"
I never said that. And that is clearly NOT what I am saying.
Dan, every mental health professional, attorney, sex positive person I know, shuddered at your advice. Why? The law is not designed to address what you are supporting .
This is NOT a vanilla vs. kinky issue. Let's just get THAT argument right out of the way.
This is about taking legal risks that are absolutely not worth it.
HOWEVER- I would ask those of you reading this blog, that you consider what the real point is, from someone who is not a famous blogger, but a sex therapy professional working in the field - that even with all of the "back-up" e-mails, digital audio recording, pre-agreements, ad infinitum, ... if things go wrong and a scenario such as this ends up in front of a jury- "If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck..."
...Nuff said. Best, Michele
6
Ok, so from the perspective of a female participant in such a scene, it is absolutely safe and fun for both, if they are into exploring it -- given pre-discussion of boundaries and safe outs and full trust in each other. Not s scene for a strangers, certainly.
7
Michele, that's what Dan does: Take your well-reasoned and expressed words, oversimplify them to take out all nuance and then bash you for opinions you never stated in the first place.
Unfortunately, he gets away with it because his sycophants here lap it all up.
Unfortunately, he gets away with it because his sycophants here lap it all up.
8
this is why you never let lawyers decide what to do with your life. their job is just to veto everything. take *that* under advisement.
9
Dan has already admitted that he has no qualification for writing his column other than that someone will pay him to do it -- all his little fan boys must be peeing themselves with delight at this one. Hey where is the "I heart Dan Savage" circle jerk tonight?
BTW Dan -- the hookers/johns all love you too -- I'll let you do the research for yourself on that one....
BTW Dan -- the hookers/johns all love you too -- I'll let you do the research for yourself on that one....
10
Ellarosa,
There are many fine lawyers who work for such wonderful organizations as Woodhull Freedom Foundation (WFF), or National Coalition for Sexual Freedom (NCSF), who fight the good fight and legal battles for our sexual freedom every day.
NCSF even has a Kink-Aware Professionals page, for those looking for therapy with kink-friendly professionals.
Lawyers never try to take away your rights- LAWS do, so get involved with one of these advocacy organizations and help the cause!
There are many fine lawyers who work for such wonderful organizations as Woodhull Freedom Foundation (WFF), or National Coalition for Sexual Freedom (NCSF), who fight the good fight and legal battles for our sexual freedom every day.
NCSF even has a Kink-Aware Professionals page, for those looking for therapy with kink-friendly professionals.
Lawyers never try to take away your rights- LAWS do, so get involved with one of these advocacy organizations and help the cause!
11
Michele, if you're definitively NOT suggesting that someone with this fantasy "bottle it up," how would you suggest that they express it?
12
#8 - My thoughts exactly.
Lawyers are always going to advise you to avoid potential illegality, just like doctors will always advise you to eat healthily. That doesn't mean we shouldn't eat some cheesecake or roleplay some rape sometimes. They aren't going to tell you to do anything that might result in criminal charges, ever. I'm pretty sure that's because they'd be liable.
Lawyers are always going to advise you to avoid potential illegality, just like doctors will always advise you to eat healthily. That doesn't mean we shouldn't eat some cheesecake or roleplay some rape sometimes. They aren't going to tell you to do anything that might result in criminal charges, ever. I'm pretty sure that's because they'd be liable.
13
I wanna know what CBT is, too.
The only thing I can come up with is 'cock and ball torture' - which is not something I'd add to my name.
The only thing I can come up with is 'cock and ball torture' - which is not something I'd add to my name.
15
Okay, Michele, if you weren't saying that people with rape fantasies should just bottle them up and never act on them, what were you saying? That's certainly the bottom line that I got from reading both what Dan printed of your letter and what you included in your comments. You agreed "in theory" for whatever that's worth, but went on to state that the legal system is screwed up enough that there is no way any amount of pre-planning could sufficiently mitigate the risk of potential legal liability. Your final analysis certainly seemed to be that no one should ever do rape-fantasy play, due to these risks. If your thesis was actually different and Dan misrepresented that, I'd love to hear what you actually meant.
As a lawyer myself, I can agree that there is risk in even the most mundane activities, and that people indulge in activities well beyond the mundane, with accompanying increases in risks. It is a lawyer's job to advise a client on how to avoid, minimize, and inoculate against those risks. But it is not the attorney's job, let alone the sex columnist's job, to steer people down the road of zero risk. It doesn't exist. What Dan was doing, and you seemed to understand this, was to suggest ways of making sure nothing did go wrong in the scenario. The simple fact that you, degrees or not, have seen scenes that went bad neither negates the validity of these precautions or precludes the possibility that a scene could go just fine. The advice-seeker seemed already well-aware of the potential liabilities he faced, so a response that focused on ways to increase safety and limit risk was well-placed.
As a lawyer myself, I can agree that there is risk in even the most mundane activities, and that people indulge in activities well beyond the mundane, with accompanying increases in risks. It is a lawyer's job to advise a client on how to avoid, minimize, and inoculate against those risks. But it is not the attorney's job, let alone the sex columnist's job, to steer people down the road of zero risk. It doesn't exist. What Dan was doing, and you seemed to understand this, was to suggest ways of making sure nothing did go wrong in the scenario. The simple fact that you, degrees or not, have seen scenes that went bad neither negates the validity of these precautions or precludes the possibility that a scene could go just fine. The advice-seeker seemed already well-aware of the potential liabilities he faced, so a response that focused on ways to increase safety and limit risk was well-placed.
16
Seriously Michele, the minute you said "IMHO" you sort of threw your argument out the window. They didn't ask your HO, they asked Dan's. Then, as they asked, he answered. As far as taking a personal attack on your on credentials by Dan, thats a little silly, since he simply asserted his own since you insisted on proving yours.
As far as the advice it self, I think it best to leave it to the lawyers, since most therapists do not have law degrees. As far as the psychological advice go, you both agree, so whats the problem?
And as far as rape fantasies go, I'm not qualified or able, so I don't make any claims either way. Period.
As far as the advice it self, I think it best to leave it to the lawyers, since most therapists do not have law degrees. As far as the psychological advice go, you both agree, so whats the problem?
And as far as rape fantasies go, I'm not qualified or able, so I don't make any claims either way. Period.
17
Dan's basic premise seems to be: the consequences of repressing one's sexual fantasies are too great to not act them out. Michele seems to be saying, fantasies are really important and everything, but not worth jail-time and probable, severe emotional harm, which in her estimation is a very real possibility in this scenario.
I'm with Michele. Acting out rape fantasies with strangers seems overly risky to all involved. I mean, we're not talking a fun domination fantasy, we're talking rape. Rape is an extremely violent act so it's easy to see why Michele is advising against it. She's not being anti-sex, she's being smart.
Dan's basic premise seems to be: the consequences of repressing one's sexual fantasies are too great to not act them out. Michele seems to be saying, fantasies are really important and everything, but not worth jail-time and probable, severe emotional harm, which in her estimation is a very real possibility in this scenario.
I'm with Michele. Acting out rape fantasies with strangers seems overly risky to all involved. I mean, we're not talking a fun domination fantasy, we're talking rape. Rape is an extremely violent act so it's easy to see why Michele is advising against it. She's not being anti-sex, she's being smart.
18
Um, rape isn't "edgy". It's fucking rape.
I mean, shit, this isn't like someone who likes to wear diapers or is desperate to fuck dogs, or wants their lover to cram them with mustard, this is entirely different.
If someone is really going to blow a gasket because someone won't rape them than they have much bigger problems that acting out this fantasy is sure as hell not going to solve.
I mean, shit, this isn't like someone who likes to wear diapers or is desperate to fuck dogs, or wants their lover to cram them with mustard, this is entirely different.
If someone is really going to blow a gasket because someone won't rape them than they have much bigger problems that acting out this fantasy is sure as hell not going to solve.
20
@18. "Rape is rape" is not a very good argument. (See tautology).
Also, saying that someone who has rape fantasies has problems isn't being very thoughtful about the necessary consequences of that fact. You suggest that acting out the fantasy won't cure them, but then neither will therapy. Therapy doesn't cure, it treats.
However, the self-destructive scenario Dan outlines will likely happen, with or without therapy.
Also, saying that someone who has rape fantasies has problems isn't being very thoughtful about the necessary consequences of that fact. You suggest that acting out the fantasy won't cure them, but then neither will therapy. Therapy doesn't cure, it treats.
However, the self-destructive scenario Dan outlines will likely happen, with or without therapy.
21
@- 17, 18--OF COURSE rape is a violent, horrific act. REAL rape, that is. For chrissake, you don't think anyone is actually arguing that it isn't, do you?
The difference between real rape and roleplaying a rape fantasy is monumental. We are not actually talking about a real act of rape, here. You understand that, right? We are talking about acting out a fantasy with both participants' full and continuing consent, having chosen each other in advance and having established a safeword. That makes it the opposite of a violent act that violates the victim's body and self. Prearranged consent that can be withdrawn at any time is not real rape, by definition. Come on.
@ 18, this scenario is, in fact, totally different from someone who is "desperate to fuck dogs"--because dogs cannot give consent and are therefore never appropriate sex partners. Really, you think taking advantage of a dog is better than finding a consenting human partner? Really?
And Michele, I'm still waiting to hear what you would endorse doing, instead of just shutting down the fantasy altogether.
Personally, I would say this is not a first-date activity--that simulated rape, like getting tied up, requires a lot of trust and should only be explored with a long-time partner. If you can roleplay the "rape" part, you can roleplay the "strangers" part too. There's just no guarantee, despite infinite precautions, that a stranger will respect the safeword you've pre-established once you're in action, or even that they'll be able to pick up on your cues well enough to figure out if something's wrong (say, you're being choked but need to signal to stop). So that's the principle that I would follow in my own sex life--save it for a trusted partner. But if others want to try to arrange safewords and consent before meeting, and then act out the fantasy as "strangers," I say let them evaluate the risk for themselves.
More...
The difference between real rape and roleplaying a rape fantasy is monumental. We are not actually talking about a real act of rape, here. You understand that, right? We are talking about acting out a fantasy with both participants' full and continuing consent, having chosen each other in advance and having established a safeword. That makes it the opposite of a violent act that violates the victim's body and self. Prearranged consent that can be withdrawn at any time is not real rape, by definition. Come on.
@ 18, this scenario is, in fact, totally different from someone who is "desperate to fuck dogs"--because dogs cannot give consent and are therefore never appropriate sex partners. Really, you think taking advantage of a dog is better than finding a consenting human partner? Really?
And Michele, I'm still waiting to hear what you would endorse doing, instead of just shutting down the fantasy altogether.
Personally, I would say this is not a first-date activity--that simulated rape, like getting tied up, requires a lot of trust and should only be explored with a long-time partner. If you can roleplay the "rape" part, you can roleplay the "strangers" part too. There's just no guarantee, despite infinite precautions, that a stranger will respect the safeword you've pre-established once you're in action, or even that they'll be able to pick up on your cues well enough to figure out if something's wrong (say, you're being choked but need to signal to stop). So that's the principle that I would follow in my own sex life--save it for a trusted partner. But if others want to try to arrange safewords and consent before meeting, and then act out the fantasy as "strangers," I say let them evaluate the risk for themselves.
22
Owning a parachute doesn't qualify you to go jump out of a plane.
Owning genitals and having a kinky fantasy doesn't qualify you to go act it out immediately. Side effects may include death.
Here are a few tips:
Have a safe word, yes, but also have a safe call i.e. someone who you are going to call at a preset time to say you are okay. This person should know where and with whom you are.
Don't engage in edge play if you have no experience. You will get experience by going to a play party, meeting people of various experience levels, getting to know and trust someone you feel comfortable playing with. The first time someone chains you naked to a wall and beats your ass there is going to be a room full of people to make sure you are safe.
It takes a long time to be sure that someone has the mental stability to control themselves during a rape fantasy role play. If it's important to you that the rapist is a near stranger then the role play is not what it's really about. What it's about is a death wish.
Owning genitals and having a kinky fantasy doesn't qualify you to go act it out immediately. Side effects may include death.
Here are a few tips:
Have a safe word, yes, but also have a safe call i.e. someone who you are going to call at a preset time to say you are okay. This person should know where and with whom you are.
Don't engage in edge play if you have no experience. You will get experience by going to a play party, meeting people of various experience levels, getting to know and trust someone you feel comfortable playing with. The first time someone chains you naked to a wall and beats your ass there is going to be a room full of people to make sure you are safe.
It takes a long time to be sure that someone has the mental stability to control themselves during a rape fantasy role play. If it's important to you that the rapist is a near stranger then the role play is not what it's really about. What it's about is a death wish.
24
I've often wondered how rape is ingrained on our DNA. I mean, for hundreds of thousands of years rape was probably common place. Women had no power. Humans are even built physically for rape. I would even bet that at many times on our evolutionary journey rape was encouraged. You still see this in places of conflict where rape is a way of conquest, of implanting a new generation into the conquered.
25
@22: So the parachute is my genitals? I thought the *plane* would be my genitals, but the parachute would be the safe sex precautions, as well as physical and psychological preparation.
26
Uh, gee. I guess "P." stands for Psycho. I didn't realize. If I had, I would've handled this letter with more care.
Michele... I'm not making fun of your qualifications. If anything I'm drawing attention to my lack thereof. And nothing was "left out" of your letter. The "salient" part you claim I omitted is... in my post, the post you read and are responding to.
And I didn't include our back-and-forth on email about your letter, that's true. But I did email you, let you know that I was going to respond to your initial note to me, and post it here. Then I sent you the link... and I did all of this so that you could, if you cared to, elaborate and defend your position, and I could respond, blah blah blah.
Sheesh.
As for this winding up in front of a jury, that's much less likely to happen if there is a long email thread, giving consent for all that happened. But, yes, risks. But risks are sometimes worth the rewards.
Michele... I'm not making fun of your qualifications. If anything I'm drawing attention to my lack thereof. And nothing was "left out" of your letter. The "salient" part you claim I omitted is... in my post, the post you read and are responding to.
And I didn't include our back-and-forth on email about your letter, that's true. But I did email you, let you know that I was going to respond to your initial note to me, and post it here. Then I sent you the link... and I did all of this so that you could, if you cared to, elaborate and defend your position, and I could respond, blah blah blah.
Sheesh.
As for this winding up in front of a jury, that's much less likely to happen if there is a long email thread, giving consent for all that happened. But, yes, risks. But risks are sometimes worth the rewards.
27
Um, Dan, the whole damn internet was invented so we could find out if the vending machine was out of Coke, get beam times in Switzerland so we weren't stuck in Paris, and share files.
That's why it was invented.
Everything else came later. Cause some of us were bored and wanted to sell our old modem and play Core Wars after graduating Mickey Mouse from SFU.
That's why it was invented.
Everything else came later. Cause some of us were bored and wanted to sell our old modem and play Core Wars after graduating Mickey Mouse from SFU.
29
I realize I am coming rather late to this discussion, but there is a reasonable solution to this that, so far, no one seems to have brought up. The biggest danger (as a top) in indulging your "stranger-danger" rape fantasy is that, when you think you've found a sexy, willing bottom who is up for some consensual rape fantasy play, you've actually got a crazy person who will have sex with you and then call the cops (DISCLAIMER: the actual incidence of victims falsely reporting rape is way the hell lower than the MRA's would have you believe, but the fact that the likelihood of it happening is "a million to one" or is very little comfort when it happens to *you*. so the relatively low chance of catching a crazy is what's under discussion here.). What happened to the wonderful, vibrant, in-person BDSM community? Haven't you got a kinky friend? Or, a friend who knows kinky people? While it's possible to miss warning signs even after a meeting for drinks in public, a reasonably long-term friendship is way more likely to turn those sorts of things up. So, the solution (if you have the means, and if you haven't, maybe the first thing to do is *find* the means) is to get a TRUSTED friend (yknow, not someone you met on the internet a month ago) who is similarly close to a kinky guy or gal of your persuasion--this friend can vet both parties more effectively (and potentially preserve a little more of the mystery) than either could do themselves. Like a pervy matchmaker. Now, in a legal setting, that isn't gonna help you much--i think the dual audio recording idea is a great one, and you still want discussions of boundaries, fantasies and safewords in writing--but it will decrease the likelihood of ending up in court in the first place.
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